Understanding the St. Johns Town Center
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1332194661_T97j3gJ-L.jpg)
Anchoring the Southside with an open-air, lifestyle-center design, the St. Johns Town Center offers innovative new retail and dining choices for Jacksonville shoppers who can shop, dine, and be entertained in one location. Of the more than 150 retailers at St. Johns Town Center, over 50 are exclusive to the market.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jun-understanding-the-st-johns-town-center
Seems to me Lifestyle centers were mixed use and had residential mixed in with the retail. So much that second and thrid stories above shops were often apartments/condos. St Johns has none of that. However there is a motel/hotel.
I personally don't like anywhere that draws a crowd shopping. It don't matter indoor mall, out door mall or downtown business district.
Take the entire center and put it downtown and then we're talking...i won't go to the stjohns town center...but would'nt we be a real city if our developers had real vision and put these stores downtown....as far as im concerned these developers are the reason our city is in such dire staights..well..at least downtowns...but of course the Skinner family wouldn't have made so much money that they were due for handing our city half of it's land...
I have had the discussion in the office of what is a lifestyle center and in the world of real estate, we apparently like to run away from that word as much as possible. I can tell you that most of the centers in that list, including the St. Johns Town Center, are referred to simply as outdoor malls. Some centers like Avenue Viera (Atlanta developer that has that thing replicated like 10 times in the Atlanta metro) pretty much fit the bill (glorified power center with mall-like stores amidst some big box retailers).
We are listing two large centers in two different states that would fall in the lifestyle center umbrella as defined in this article, but we are actually calling them both power centers for short. These are centers that are attracting interest from the big guys only (because they are so large), and our partner in the listing is in Miami (a guy we partner with for everything). Apparently, as I'm still learning, "Lifestyle Centers" have not done nearly as well as they were predicted to, and so they have a huge stigma attached to them. One of our centers even has sales per SF of close to $500. Nope, not a lifestyle center...still a multi-phased power center with perhaps a lifestyle component.
There is a center (Summit) in Birmingham with just under a million SF of gross leasable area, and it is anchored among other things by a Saks Fifth Avenue, but we call it a power center (glorified as it may be).
Mary Brickell Village, City Place, Mizner Park, Old Hyde Park Village,and Winter Park Village are definitely not lifestyle centers, but rather a form of urban format shopping/infill. While not to the same level, saying Old Hyde Park Village is a lifestyle center would be akin to calling Highland Park Village in Dallas a lifestyle center (and that is in the same playing field as Bal Harbour Shops, and old). Atlantic Station in Atlanta is not a lifestyle center, either, but rather a redeveloped mixed-use brownfield. Outdoor does not necessarily mean lifestyle center.
In that list, true lifestyle centers include Waterford Lakes, Viera, and perhaps Market Street at Heath Brook and Destin Commons. There may be a few others, but once you start straying from having any big box and including traditional department stores and really upscale stores/purely mall stores and in a mall layout that happens to be outdoors, it's really just an outdoor mall.
I guess in short, a lifestyle center as thought of within the real estate industry is a power center in more attractive packaging, and a power center is an in-line/strip center with big box retailers. The more attractive packaging can be nicer facades, slightly more walkable environment, fountains, and of course a slew of smaller mall-stores. Viera and Waterford Lakes are the perfect examples here. They are also not over 600,000 SF large. Once you get to a certain point of massiveness, you are either a multi-phased power center or you are a mall.
SJTC attracts something like 10 million visitors a year, with like 30-35% coming from a distance of greater than 100 miles away. It has a power center component, but it's "lifestyle component" is anchored by a traditional mall department store that is still in its mall format. The layout is no different from a mall, but happens to have parking and sidewalks and landscaping in the middle. There will most likely be another department store and a few other upscale stores that either go in malls or on Fifth Avenue type streets joining this center. SJTC is owned by SPG, another indicator that it is most likely a mall taking advantage of good FL weather, a super-regional mall at that. I guess looking at the map in the picture provided, if you were to take away the newest section (green), maybe you could call this a power center with a lifestyle component, but that newest section turned this place into a mall and when more stuff gets built, it will even further resemble a mall.
Sorry to clarify here, but this is exactly my line of business for the time being at least.
In fact, I take back Waterford Lakes. It is a power center through and through.
I somewhat agree with simms.
the walkable portion of St. Johns Town Center would have been considered a lifestyle center
the big box area (Target, DSW, etc.) is a power center
SJTC, is a hybrid. In fact, most of the centers on the list are hybrids. We live in a time where its getting more difficult to fit these places into one distinct category. The same thing goes for rail transit where traditionally we associate commuter rail and streetcars as having specific operating characteristics and costs. In reality, more and more systems are being developed with hybrid traits, specifically designed for the communities or corridors they serve.
There is still plenty of room around SJTC for residential development. There is already one apartment complex behind the Publix at the far end, but is no real integration to the SJTC. Does anyone know about what the plan is for the strip of land across from the town center? The intersections are all ready to be extended into four ways, and if they're smart, they will develop in a way that could integrate Town Center and apartments more with UNF.
Here are two developments in Arlington, VA that do a much better job of integrating the residential with the commercial:
http://www.marketcommonclarendon.net/
http://www.pentagonrow.com/
Quote from: tg on June 16, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
There is still plenty of room around SJTC for residential development. There is already one apartment complex behind the Publix at the far end, but is no real integration to the SJTC. Does anyone know about what the plan is for the strip of land across from the town center? The intersections are all ready to be extended into four ways, and if they're smart, they will develop in a way that could integrate Town Center and apartments more with UNF.
Technically, the stuff behind Publix is actually a townhouse subdivision, not apartments. Phase 2 abuts the back corner of the Power Center (or as my wife and I like to call it, the "Blue Collar side" of the SJTC), and is connected to Phase 1 across the creek by a footbridge.
I live back there. Plenty of residents in the neighborhood walk to the SJTC. So while it's not a compact lifestyle center and the development is indeed separate from the rest of the T.C., it's all still technically within walking distance.
In the sprawling suburbia of the Southside, and with the exception of Tapestry Park (which got it right, IMO), that's probably as good as it's going to get in terms of connectivity. FWIW, I'd have loved to have a residential component on top of the retail in the SJTC, akin to TP.
There are condos also, situated behind Maggianos and the south portion of the Power Center and adjacent to the hotel.
I hope they leave the land on the other side of Town Center Parkway alone for a long while.
In fact, I hope the next phase of residential goes in behind the "White Collar" section at the south end.
Quote from: tg on June 16, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
... and if they're smart, they will develop in a way that could integrate Town Center and apartments more with UNF.
FWIW, there's already a practically-dedicated bus route (SS-6) that serves UNF and the SJTC. Well ok, not really dedicated per se, but it gets decent usage with the students traveling to Publix and the rest of the TC from campus.
Quote from: Garden guy on June 16, 2011, 07:22:24 AM
Take the entire center and put it downtown and then we're talking...i won't go to the stjohns town center...but would'nt we be a real city if our developers had real vision and put these stores downtown....
Not with that sea of asphalt parking lots. Haven't we all agreed by now that downtown has entirely too much parking anyway? :D
I hated malls when they were inside giant building in the air conditioning, I certainly still hate them when they're out in the sun and have all their surface parking in the middle of everything.
Personal taste I suppose.
I find what they've done on King Street in Charleston interesting. They attracted archetypal mall stores to existing downtown buildings. The downside of this is that you have a bunch of lame national chains cluttering up your downtown, to the point that it really does feel like you're at the mall. The upside is you get to have these places without having the mall itself (and without having to plow over greenfield land to build it).
^Charleston is a major tourist attraction with significant foot traffic. As long as you have viable market demographics and a highly visible location (auto or foot traffic will do), businesses (local and chain) will be attracted to it.
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 16, 2011, 10:26:47 AM
FWIW, there's already a practically-dedicated bus route (SS-6) that serves UNF and the SJTC. Well ok, not really dedicated per se, but it gets decent usage with the students traveling to Publix and the rest of the TC from campus.
I'm just saying it would be great to see some more apartments/condos/townhomes in and around Town Center to make the area more connected to students living closer to campus. I go to UNF, and most students that don't live on campus live drive to school. There was discussion on another thread about how the campus is isolated from everything. I agree that there is JTA bus routing, but apartments in and around SJTC would allow for a more "college town" or a more united feel for the city and school. There has been talk for the last few years from recenet Student Government administrations about expanding UNF's shuttle to the Town Center. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5 years.
Town Center has been a big benefit to UNF, and I think Town Center should realize the potential that UNF could bring them if they really want to be an actual "Town Center." I just wish everything was more pedestrian/biking friendly...and the two being so close to each other offers a great opportunity to have a gem in the urban sprawl of Southside.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
^Charleston is a major tourist attraction with significant foot traffic. As long as you have viable market demographics and a highly visible location (auto or foot traffic will do), businesses (local and chain) will be attracted to it.
The entire peninsula is a tourist attraction, and many of its streets have lots of traffic and thriving businesses. But it's chiefly the one section of King Street that has the proliferation of mall-style chain stores (as well as local businesses and other things of course). It seems unlikely this would have happened without planning.
Get rid of the drive-up parking (thats usually not available anyway) & the roads going right down the center of the main strip (forcing cars & people to play chicken with each other), and you might have a true pedestrian open-air mall. Example:
The Shops At La Cantera in San Antonio
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4829240983_5cdca3c9e2_z.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/2404000936_239b3de39b_z.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4829271361_f013551f65_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3203474612_2d8c43dd3b_z.jpg)
Quote from: Tacachale on June 16, 2011, 11:38:02 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
^Charleston is a major tourist attraction with significant foot traffic. As long as you have viable market demographics and a highly visible location (auto or foot traffic will do), businesses (local and chain) will be attracted to it.
The entire peninsula is a tourist attraction, and many of its streets have lots of traffic and thriving businesses. But it's chiefly the one section of King Street that has the proliferation of mall-style chain stores (as well as local businesses and other things of course). It seems unlikely this would have happened without planning.
Of course. There's some planning involved as well as King being the historic "main street" in DT Charleston with a cluster of right sized available retail spaces still standing (in DT Jax, we demolished our significant historic retail strips like Main and Forsyth Streets). To a lesser degree, this is starting to happen in Savannah along Broughton Street as well.
I would love to see the something similar to the San Antonio example at the Shipyards site downtown...
Quote from: tg on June 16, 2011, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 16, 2011, 10:26:47 AM
FWIW, there's already a practically-dedicated bus route (SS-6) that serves UNF and the SJTC. Well ok, not really dedicated per se, but it gets decent usage with the students traveling to Publix and the rest of the TC from campus.
I'm just saying it would be great to see some more apartments/condos/townhomes in and around Town Center to make the area more connected to students living closer to campus. I go to UNF, and most students that don't live on campus live drive to school. There was discussion on another thread about how the campus is isolated from everything. I agree that there is JTA bus routing, but apartments in and around SJTC would allow for a more "college town" or a more united feel for the city and school. There has been talk for the last few years from recenet Student Government administrations about expanding UNF's shuttle to the Town Center. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5 years.
Town Center has been a big benefit to UNF, and I think Town Center should realize the potential that UNF could bring them if they really want to be an actual "Town Center." I just wish everything was more pedestrian/biking friendly...and the two being so close to each other offers a great opportunity to have a gem in the urban sprawl of Southside.
I don't think it would be a good idea for UNF students to foot the bill for a shuttle that only goes one place and only benefits a privately owned mall and its tenants.
More housing in the area is definitely going to happen at some point, depending on the recovery of market. Hopefully the developers will have the foresight to see that a big chunk of renters in that area will be UNF students, and design accordingly. I hope that they'd make the effort to connect to the campus by walking or biking, but, as usual, I'm not holding my breath.
What spaces are the L'Occitane and Fossil stores replacing??
For a cool example of a suburban lifestyle center (if I have the concept right), check out Birkdale Village north of Charlotte.
http://www.birkdalevillage.net/ (http://www.birkdalevillage.net/)
(http://media.helenadamsrealty.com/pics/community/608/1269/)
http://www.helenadamsrealty.com/communities/birkdalevillage (http://www.helenadamsrealty.com/communities/birkdalevillage)
Quote from: TheProfessor on June 16, 2011, 12:37:40 PM
What spaces are the L'Occitane and Fossil stores replacing??
I *think* Fossil is going into the old Swoozy's location.
Not sure about the other.
Quote from: peestandingup on June 16, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Get rid of the drive-up parking (thats usually not available anyway) & the roads going right down the center of the main strip (forcing cars & people to play chicken with each other), and you might have a true pedestrian open-air mall.
I would also suggest creating some garages and cutting down some on that ridiculous surface parking acreage. The map seems to indicate there is more land area taken up by the parking lot than the actual shops. But yes you're right the layout as it stands now encourages people to do the silly parking hunt game for several minutes and nearly run people over.
I am a fan of Town Center, but I will comment that I hope they decide to grow it vertically at some point, and no longer horizontally.
Garages would be great but I don't think they (the developer) want them because supposedly they wouldn't let Macy's build one when they wanted to open a store there.
Quote from: iMarvin on June 16, 2011, 01:15:48 PM
Garages would be great but I don't think they (the developer) want them because supposedly they wouldn't let Macy's build one when they wanted to open a store there.
How strange. Maybe they can help people who park really away from their destination in the hot sun. Maybe they can run more of those kiddie trains. :D
I wouldn't expect more than what we see there today any time soon (like before 2020). It's a suburban shopping center in the heart of suburbia and it will most likely be that way until market pressures or opportunities demand more expensive vertical or urban development. I kind of accept it for what it is (a 21st century version of Regency or the Avenues) and try not to get fooled in expecting it to be more because of the name "town center."
That's a good perspective. With all its issues, it's still a place that has (almost) everything, and it's easy to say "Let's go to ____ in Town Center", and everyone in your group knows how to get there. I'm also not surprised how many people come in from out of town to shop there.
Quote from: iMarvin on June 16, 2011, 01:15:48 PM
Garages would be great but I don't think they (the developer) want them because supposedly they wouldn't let Macy's build one when they wanted to open a store there.
I thought I read somewhere that they were indeed looking into raising at least one parking deck?
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 16, 2011, 01:49:10 PM
Quote from: iMarvin on June 16, 2011, 01:15:48 PM
Garages would be great but I don't think they (the developer) want them because supposedly they wouldn't let Macy's build one when they wanted to open a store there.
I thought I read somewhere that they were indeed looking into raising at least one parking deck?
I haven't heard anything about it. They could possibly be looking into it since the Macy's situation was around 2008/2009.
Quote from: peestandingup on June 16, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Get rid of the drive-up parking (thats usually not available anyway) & the roads going right down the center of the main strip (forcing cars & people to play chicken with each other), and you might have a true pedestrian open-air mall. Example:
The Shops At La Cantera in San Antonio
Waterside shopping center in Naples FL is similar to this.
Quote from: danem on June 16, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on June 16, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Get rid of the drive-up parking (thats usually not available anyway) & the roads going right down the center of the main strip (forcing cars & people to play chicken with each other), and you might have a true pedestrian open-air mall.
I would also suggest creating some garages and cutting down some on that ridiculous surface parking acreage. The map seems to indicate there is more land area taken up by the parking lot than the actual shops. But yes you're right the layout as it stands now encourages people to do the silly parking hunt game for several minutes and nearly run people over.
I believe there were plans to make the parking lot between Cheesecake Factory and Dillards into a parking garage eventually. Not sure if that still is under consideration.
As someone who has worked for a company that considered building a parking structure, I can tell you it is very expensive.
Quote from: copperfiend on June 16, 2011, 03:56:16 PM
I believe there were plans to make the parking lot between Cheesecake Factory and Dillards into a parking garage eventually. Not sure if that still is under consideration.
That's the one I'd heard of and was thinking of.
Well as long as it has oceans of surface parking all around I would consider it a mall without a roof. For this reason I think it would not work downtown. I am not saying stores in the SJTC can't exist DT, but this place does not have a sliver of walkability I would desire in an inner city neighborhood. I am also sick of almost getting run over by a giant SUV with a small bleach haired lady driving.
It has some nice restaurants , and a few nice stores, but overall I just do not care for the concept. A previous poster mentioned that it boils down to one's taste and I concur. I miss the downtown shopping district as it was in the 60s-70s. That is what I would like to see return to downtown. I don't suppose it is possible on the scale of what it WAS, but I would shop downtown, if there was anything there to patronize.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 16, 2011, 10:34:10 PM
I am also sick of almost getting run over by a giant SUV with a small bleach haired lady driving.
The real silliness is that every single little artery of road and almost every parking lot aisle is filled with cars scootching and stopping at 5 MPH, each car with one person inside. It's the price we pay for a place being popular, and the best indication we need more places like this or other places even better than this elsewhere in town.
Maybe they could use a parking elevator? They use them over here in Korea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf1dTNSJBu8
Quote from: Timkin on June 16, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
It has some nice restaurants , and a few nice stores, but overall I just do not care for the concept. A previous poster mentioned that it boils down to one's taste and I concur. I miss the downtown shopping district as it was in the 60s-70s. That is what I would like to see return to downtown. I don't suppose it is possible on the scale of what it WAS, but I would shop downtown, if there was anything there to patronize.
Family Dollar perhaps????? LMAO all jokes aside I would actually go to that Family dollar when its built. I like to do things on my lunch break and it will be pretty darn close to my job. LOL
Quote from: justinthered on June 17, 2011, 01:28:54 AM
Maybe they could use a parking elevator? They use them over here in Korea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf1dTNSJBu8
Those look cool!
Well the place...although I do live near and go often is very car centric and feels like this. You can make the argument that the middle is town like, but still seems to me like a roofless mall.
Quote from: Traveller on June 16, 2011, 12:39:42 PM
For a cool example of a suburban lifestyle center (if I have the concept right), check out Birkdale Village north of Charlotte.
http://www.birkdalevillage.net/ (http://www.birkdalevillage.net/)
(http://media.helenadamsrealty.com/pics/community/608/1269/)
http://www.helenadamsrealty.com/communities/birkdalevillage (http://www.helenadamsrealty.com/communities/birkdalevillage)
Wow, I love that picture! It just strikes my fancy and makes me want to go walk around there.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 17, 2011, 09:35:17 AM
Well the place...although I do live near and go often is very car centric and feels like this. You can make the argument that the middle is town like, but still seems to me like a roofless mall.
Naw...not town like at all. Not when the only business happening is retail.
Quote from: iMarvin on June 17, 2011, 07:47:32 AM
Quote from: justinthered on June 17, 2011, 01:28:54 AM
Maybe they could use a parking elevator? They use them over here in Korea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf1dTNSJBu8
Those look cool!
There are a lot of cool parking innovations coming out of Asia. I've seen carousel and elevator spaces within traditional parking garages, and even really small, temporary elevator spaces that can more or less create instant parking garages for special events. In chicago there's an apartment bldg along the river that is too narrow for cars to turn around (along with parking), so they utilize a car elevator to get between floors on the parking garage levels.
Obviously if the town center developers dont need even a basic garage, then they won't be spending even more money to further conserve space with these techniques. It's so much cheaper to pave spaces since they have the land. Hopefully a garage does go up behind cheesecake though...I could possibly see that since there's a critical mass of shoppers in that area. But I'm not holding my breath.
Would people on this site feel differently about the SJTC if it were essentially a bigger version of Tapestry Park?
Quote from: copperfiend on June 16, 2011, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: danem on June 16, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on June 16, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Get rid of the drive-up parking (thats usually not available anyway) & the roads going right down the center of the main strip (forcing cars & people to play chicken with each other), and you might have a true pedestrian open-air mall.
I would also suggest creating some garages and cutting down some on that ridiculous surface parking acreage. The map seems to indicate there is more land area taken up by the parking lot than the actual shops. But yes you're right the layout as it stands now encourages people to do the silly parking hunt game for several minutes and nearly run people over.
I believe there were plans to make the parking lot between Cheesecake Factory and Dillards into a parking garage eventually. Not sure if that still is under consideration.
As someone who has worked for a company that considered building a parking structure, I can tell you it is very expensive.
I dont think a massive structure is the answer either. The drive-up parking & roads in the actual center of the shops obviously isn't going away.
The design of SJTC to me has always stunk because they were trying to please both cars & pedestrians by having them share the same space, but ended up screwing both of them. Cars dont have any parking near the shops they want (so they play the "circle around a hundred times" game until they give up & park at one of the big anchor lots), and pedestrians feel like they always have to be on the lookout for those cars (esp if you have kids). Its not good.
To me, it would have made more sense to mimic something like Downtown Disney (or the La Cantera San Antonio outdoor mall I posted earlier). Meaning the actual mall part is sorta enclosed inside of its own parameter & parking is done all along the outside parameter, with alleys & breezeways cutting through to connect the parking lots to the mall. You can't do that with SJTC because of its sprawling, car-centric nature. It just cant be done because it was never designed that way.
So to me, they can retrofit any parking structure over top of it they want, its still gonna blow.
Wow, did I say "to me" enough in that last post?? :P
it seems like you did....... "to me"
Quote from: peestandingup on June 17, 2011, 04:14:34 PM
Wow, did I say "to me" enough in that last post?? :P
No... you should have said it a few more times ;)
Those are fun suggestions Peeing Guy. I feel like even if STJC doesn't change much, there is a lot of room in town for something else to spring up out of a currently blighted or empty area that would be more like what you described. When I first got interested in this subject, I remember reading stories about taking a "greyfield" (usually an abandoned, blighted mall) and retooling it into this amazing mixed use setup.
Quote from: peestandingup on June 17, 2011, 02:44:38 PM
I dont think a massive structure is the answer either. The drive-up parking & roads in the actual center of the shops obviously isn't going away.
The design of SJTC to me has always stunk because they were trying to please both cars & pedestrians by having them share the same space, but ended up screwing both of them. Cars dont have any parking near the shops they want (so they play the "circle around a hundred times" game until they give up & park at one of the big anchor lots), and pedestrians feel like they always have to be on the lookout for those cars (esp if you have kids). Its not good.
To me, it would have made more sense to mimic something like Downtown Disney (or the La Cantera San Antonio outdoor mall I posted earlier). Meaning the actual mall part is sorta enclosed inside of its own parameter & parking is done all along the outside parameter, with alleys & breezeways cutting through to connect the parking lots to the mall. You can't do that with SJTC because of its sprawling, car-centric nature. It just cant be done because it was never designed that way.
So to me, they can retrofit any parking structure over top of it they want, its still gonna blow.
I'm not so hot on the pedestrian mall concept...at least not yet. I guess we just have different preferences, but I wish the entire town center was exactly like the main strip that you're bashing. Which would then make it at least appear like a town center. =)
I guess in my mind, pedestrians and autos
should be able to coexist, and the town center should be designed to work for both. Of course, that's also contingent on drivers understanding how to properly share the road and pedestrians knowing how to walk in traffic...perhaps asking too much in Jax.
to me, that is. ;)
The section of the town center that attracts me is where the street divides the center. Especially at Christmas time. I also like the restaurants. Downtown can attract people as well and it will. It will take time but I see momentum building with wells Fargo, ever bank, Laura street improvements including the round about, and the Laura street trio. These are all going on or fixing to go on in the walkable core. Better days are ahead!! Btw, we do not need to pit downtown vs the town center. They are 2 different creatures and will attract similar but also different visitors. They can both be good for jax.
Great points, Matt.
Quote from: copperfiend on June 17, 2011, 02:42:11 PM
Would people on this site feel differently about the SJTC if it were essentially a bigger version of Tapestry Park?
Maybe. Here's the problem in my opinion. SJTC got too big and lost its charm. I love Tapestry Park because it includes residential and is walkable. My opinion of walkable is you can park (if you don't live there) and safely walk to everything you need/want to. I consider Tapestry Park walkable and Tinseltown not walkable because of the huge parking lots and no sidewalks. I consider Laura Street downtown walkable, there just isn't a lot of options.
I loved SJTC when it first opened. It wasn't as big so there was a lot less traffic. Now with the MofTC next door, there is just way too much traffic and nothing is connected. Walking across parking lots to get from one place to another is not safe or enjoyable. SJTC lost its appeal with all of the parceled development along Town Center Blvd. When they allowed everything outside of the core of SJTC to become autocentric, it kind of defeated the purpose.
They should have kept the traditional street grid going and built up, not out. For example, the strip with Ross/Famous Footwear/Staples should have been on the other side of the parking lot, directly across from and still facing DSW. All of the shops like Panera, Game Stop, Mens Warehouse should have been built along Town Crossing Drive instead of in separate stand alone buildings. Town Crossing Drive should have looked more like River City Drive. With a parking structure between Dillards and B&N everything would have been more centrally located and actually walkable. CompUSA and the others around it should have been placed along Rivercoast Drive to preserve that as a walkable street. I wish developers spent more time planning before they build. Most seem to lack vision for anthing beyond a year.
You're right, brainstormer. It would have been awesome had the entire development been walkable with residential integrated throughout. And parking on top!!
Anyway, if anyone knows, I've always wondered whether these chains that keep coming in actually own their buildings or if the developer builds it and collects rent? Do Bahama Breeze or Cantina Laredo pay Ben Carter Properties rent for the buildings, rent for the land, or not at all?
and going off what a previous post said..the SJTC has a good chance of better integrating with UNF in terms of housing/ more urban town like than the low density sprawl around the school. It might be too late for that. It seems like every open space as of late has become a box store.
Quote from: tg on June 16, 2011, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 16, 2011, 10:26:47 AM
FWIW, there's already a practically-dedicated bus route (SS-6) that serves UNF and the SJTC. Well ok, not really dedicated per se, but it gets decent usage with the students traveling to Publix and the rest of the TC from campus.
I'm just saying it would be great to see some more apartments/condos/townhomes in and around Town Center to make the area more connected to students living closer to campus. I go to UNF, and most students that don't live on campus live drive to school. There was discussion on another thread about how the campus is isolated from everything. I agree that there is JTA bus routing, but apartments in and around SJTC would allow for a more "college town" or a more united feel for the city and school. There has been talk for the last few years from recenet Student Government administrations about expanding UNF's shuttle to the Town Center. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5 years.
Town Center has been a big benefit to UNF, and I think Town Center should realize the potential that UNF could bring them if they really want to be an actual "Town Center." I just wish everything was more pedestrian/biking friendly...and the two being so close to each other offers a great opportunity to have a gem in the urban sprawl of Southside.
here it is!
SJTC has been a huge success and Tapestry Park is a disaster. I am sure it was because of subsidies/evil developers etc. The free market is very smart and like it or not this is what the people want
^The free market has nothing to do with either center's layout. I'd also put money up that their success/failure has more to do with each center's accessibility to arterial highways in the area and the presence of anchors needed to draw people to the smaller shops in them. I'm also not sure why the developers would be seen as "evil" with either of these projects. I also don't understand why people believe the developer should have built SJTC a different way. It and the majority of nearby office buildings, apartment complexes and subdivisions are simply a byproduct of COJ's suburban zoning regulations. If we want something different in suburbia, its going to have to start with a change in the zoning code, not the private sector.
I'm not suer Tapestry Park is a disaster....it has some specialty retail, a high end restaurant (3 Forks), casual dining (Jimmy Johns), two hotels...and oh yeah, one thing SJTC dioesn't have....residential!
SJTC does have residential. It's near the hotel behind Dick's.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2011, 08:25:17 AM
SJTC does have residential. It's near the hotel behind Dick's.
I didn't really count that...I guess it is kind of walkable, but not integrated
It's walkable and urban (multiple stories and built around a parking garage). There just happens to be a small surface parking lot between it and Maggiano's (two driveways and five stalls in width).
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2011, 06:26:19 AM
^The free market has nothing to do with either center's layout.
Exactly. Just as there is no such thing as a free lunch, there is not such thing as "free markets". Any development is subject to imperfection and abuse, and requires diligent effort, frank discussion, transparency, and conscious intentions to create something that works to everybody's best interst.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 20, 2011, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2011, 08:25:17 AM
SJTC does have residential. It's near the hotel behind Dick's.
I didn't really count that...I guess it is kind of walkable, but not integrated
Absolutely it's not 'integrated.' However, it *is* walkable.
If 'walkable' in a more urban setting is two or three blocks, or 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 mile, then the condos/apartments behind Dick's and the townhouses behind the Publix are definitely 'walkable.' IMO, the distance is roughly equivalent of a couple-three blocks to almost anywhere in the complex from either of those residential sections.
...except for the Plaza section. That's just sprawl. The only thing down there worth going to is Libretto's Pizza anyway. ;)
I quite like Tapestry Park. In fact, that is the kind of infill that should be encouraged on the Southside.
JTA is considering lunchtime PCT trolley service along Gate Parkway to the Town Center. I hope they do it(selfishly and altrustically).
Agreed on whoever said Librettos is the only thing worth visiting at Markets :)
Quote from: bill on June 20, 2011, 01:18:48 AM
SJTC has been a huge success and Tapestry Park is a disaster. I am sure it was because of subsidies/evil developers etc. The free market is very smart and like it or not this is what the people want
Disaster based on what?
Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2011, 12:10:30 PM
I quite like Tapestry Park. In fact, that is the kind of infill that should be encouraged on the Southside.
JTA is considering lunchtime PCT trolley service along Gate Parkway to the Town Center. I hope they do it(selfishly and altrustically).
Agreed on whoever said Librettos is the only thing worth visiting at Markets :)
That would be me! We should totally do lunch there one day.
And how far along Gate Parkway are they considering? Do you have any inside info?
Neither Tapestry Park nor the St John's Town Center are my cup of tea. However I realize it's mostly a matter of taste and it takes all kinds. That considered I have to say that Tapestry Park seems to be a much better use of space, whether or not it's "successful" on the scale of the city's newest and largest shopping mall.
Tapestry Park is the kind of thing I'd like to see develop around, and be integrated with, UNF, when that inevitably happens. Much better than disparate strip malls and unconnected apartment buildings.