Tea Party Advocate Wrong On Everbank Deal
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1059206081_KT8nq-L.jpg)
"It's unheard of to give public funds to relocate a firm from one part of town to another part of town," Chuck White, president and CEO of NAI Commercial Jacksonville and First Coast Tea Party member. While this may be Mr. White's position regarding a deal to bring 1,200 corporate jobs to Downtown Jacksonville, not everyone agrees.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jun-tea-party-advocate-wrong-on-everbank-deal
That headline and this one issue will define Jacksonville for generations to come?
Everybody, Stick your hand out and don't do anything until you have taxpayer dollars in your hand.
Shipyards-$36,500,000 of taxpayer money gone.
2010-604- The legislation that gave the former Shipyards/Landmar property back to the citizens of Jacksonville and my city councilman Don Redman in my opinion is doing nothing. Councilman Redman did you see the story in the TU money section 5,000 letters to lobby for Jaxport? A campaign called "Bring the Noise" I support Jaxport. Mr. Anderson welcome to Jacksonville and I can't wait to meet you. I promise I'll share the Noise for Jaxport throughout the state.
2010-675 one Finance amendment.
This brand new piece of legislation will be heard in 3 hours.
New Mayor and members of city council taking office in 21 days.
Brand new JCCI study to be released to the Public called Recession, Recovery, and Beyond in just 6 days.
Just saw Richard Nunn on WJXT and they were spanning our Downtown and our beautiful St. Johns River our American Heritage River and its empty. We are reminded of this every day. Morning, noon, and night. USE the RIVER! Where is the legislation for economic access for the River Downtown? It doesn't exist.
Believe it or not I support Downtown.
Our city is broke. The Public Trust has just been crushed in this community. Watch for floor amendments when Ethics legislation is voted on at the next 6/14/11 city council meeting.
Is this legislation an emergency? No.
Monuments for everyone.
Lake I agree that this is a very cost effective way to affect the many small businesses in downtown and grow our tax base.
So since the city has wasted money in the past, we should assume every plan it has is bad? This is the kind of business-promoting, non-dumb pie-in-the-sky type investment we always talk about on here as the way to actually make Jax great. A moderate amount of cost for an immediate return in terms of people and money in downtown.
Aren't these incentives already in place? Everbank is simply taking advantage of them? Am I reading right that Everbank will be investing $26.5 million in tenant improvements if they get $2.75 million in incentives? Sounds worth it already.
What's better for the city: keep the jobs in the Southside, requiring tremendous infrastructure investments and supporting all the fine chain retailers the suburbs have to offer, or move the jobs downtown, which is designed to handle a large mass of people, and has the actual "small businesses" these hacks support only in rhetoric.
Edit: The poorly (or not at all) proofread letter from the downtown small businesses does not exactly exude professionalism. That and, seriously, have these folks never been outside of Jax? Phone numbers have 10 digits! Can I get a 904! I think its safe to assume if Everbank brings in 200 more employees, they will not all have 904 area codes. Its 2011. Okay rant over.
Edit edit: Also, is there currently an agreement between the city and Everbank in terms of keeping jobs in Jacksonville? This new deal would require them to keep 1350? jobs in the urban core (Enterprise Zone or whatever over the next 5 years. That provision alone should be worth something.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on June 09, 2011, 08:46:45 AM
So since the city has wasted money in the past, we should assume every plan it has is bad? This is the kind of business-promoting, non-dumb pie-in-the-sky type investment we always talk about on here as the way to actually make Jax great. A moderate amount of cost for an immediate return in terms of people and money in downtown.
Aren't these incentives already in place? Everbank is simply taking advantage of them? Am I reading right that Everbank will be investing $26.5 million in tenant improvements if they get $2.75 million in incentives? Sounds worth it already.
What's better for the city: keep the jobs in the Southside, requiring tremendous infrastructure investments and supporting all the fine chain retailers the suburbs have to offer, or move the jobs downtown, which is designed to handle a large mass of people, and has the actual "small businesses" these hacks support only in rhetoric.
Edit: The poorly (or not at all) proofread letter from the downtown small businesses does not exactly exude professionalism. That and, seriously, have these folks never been outside of Jax? Phone numbers have 10 digits! Can I get a 904! I think its safe to assume if Everbank brings in 200 more employees, they will not all have 904 area codes. Its 2011. Okay rant over.
Edit edit: Also, is there currently an agreement between the city and Everbank in terms of keeping jobs in Jacksonville? This new deal would require them to keep 1350? jobs in the urban core (Enterprise Zone or whatever over the next 5 years. That provision alone should be worth something.
I agree. Weve spent decades providing incentives to developers for pie in the sky projects, or trying to lure out of town businesses to relocate here, but yet we are now investing in ourselves and people have any issue with that? That is unreal.
How much office space is available downtown steven?
Quote from: Noone on June 09, 2011, 06:38:04 AM
That headline and this one issue will define Jacksonville for generations to come?
Everybody, Stick your hand out and don't do anything until you have taxpayer dollars in your hand.
Shipyards-$36,500,000 of taxpayer money gone.
2010-604- The legislation that gave the former Shipyards/Landmar property back to the citizens of Jacksonville and my city councilman Don Redman in my opinion is doing nothing. Councilman Redman did you see the story in the TU money section 5,000 letters to lobby for Jaxport? A campaign called "Bring the Noise" I support Jaxport. Mr. Anderson welcome to Jacksonville and I can't wait to meet you. I promise I'll share the Noise for Jaxport throughout the state.
2010-675 one Finance amendment.
This brand new piece of legislation will be heard in 3 hours.
New Mayor and members of city council taking office in 21 days.
Brand new JCCI study to be released to the Public called Recession, Recovery, and Beyond in just 6 days.
Just saw Richard Nunn on WJXT and they were spanning our Downtown and our beautiful St. Johns River our American Heritage River and its empty. We are reminded of this every day. Morning, noon, and night. USE the RIVER! Where is the legislation for economic access for the River Downtown? It doesn't exist.
Believe it or not I support Downtown.
Our city is broke. The Public Trust has just been crushed in this community. Watch for floor amendments when Ethics legislation is voted on at the next 6/14/11 city council meeting.
Is this legislation an emergency? No.
Monuments for everyone.
Noone, every post I have seen you made here always has been about the river and You are like a person with a large pan and a wooden spatula, smacking it to make loud noise about it. No, I am not attacking you. I am actually really happy and glad to know we have a loyal and fervor supporter of our heritage, the St. Johns River.
The downtown is TOO WEAK to support ANY recreational or anything that is NOT important at the moment. We need to restart the economic engine and rejuvenates the heart & core of the Downtown.
Once we can get the momentum going with a huge economic impact, then we can start to bleed the money over to the different things we ALL wanted to dramatically improve the quality of life in Jacksonville including protecting the amazing river, helping Springfield, making JTA the best transit system on the planet, save the Annie school, make the downtown a destination for the young generations
AND TOURIST, and much much much MORE. I can go on all day.
Until then, your banging is not loud enough until the downtown comes back rolling and kicking. We will all be part of that stampede. We are in this together, and you are not alone always, Noone. I actually do want to rent a kayak, and take up a paddling with you to Hogan's Creek one weekend.
-Josh
so is anyone speaking at the JEDC meeting in favor of this deal? from what i have heard the meeting is packed with lots of folks from the tea party.
Quote from: Noone on June 09, 2011, 06:38:04 AM
That headline and this one issue will define Jacksonville for generations to come?
Everybody, Stick your hand out and don't do anything until you have taxpayer dollars in your hand.
Shipyards-$36,500,000 of taxpayer money gone.
2010-604- The legislation that gave the former Shipyards/Landmar property back to the citizens of Jacksonville and my city councilman Don Redman in my opinion is doing nothing. Councilman Redman did you see the story in the TU money section 5,000 letters to lobby for Jaxport? A campaign called "Bring the Noise" I support Jaxport. Mr. Anderson welcome to Jacksonville and I can't wait to meet you. I promise I'll share the Noise for Jaxport throughout the state.
2010-675 one Finance amendment.
This brand new piece of legislation will be heard in 3 hours.
New Mayor and members of city council taking office in 21 days.
Brand new JCCI study to be released to the Public called Recession, Recovery, and Beyond in just 6 days.
Just saw Richard Nunn on WJXT and they were spanning our Downtown and our beautiful St. Johns River our American Heritage River and its empty. We are reminded of this every day. Morning, noon, and night. USE the RIVER! Where is the legislation for economic access for the River Downtown? It doesn't exist.
Believe it or not I support Downtown.
Our city is broke. The Public Trust has just been crushed in this community. Watch for floor amendments when Ethics legislation is voted on at the next 6/14/11 city council meeting.
Is this legislation an emergency? No.
Monuments for everyone.
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Here's another item on the table today. We are looking to expand out entertainment district.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=533771
Great article, Ennis. These are great reasons to support this move.
It's also worth noting that Southside wouldn't exactly be hurting with this deal, even if two properties will lose some tenants for the time being.
First, in the last six or eight months, just about every similar deal the city has made has been in the Southside, specifically Deerwood. From realtor Jim Sebesta, quoted in the Jax Business Journal in March:
Quote
“Really, in all honesty, if you look at the momentum happening in Jacksonville â€" PNC [Mortgage], Digital Risk [LLC], Adecco, the Availity [LLC] deal â€" every major good-size deal has been done out here in the Deerwood market,†Sebesta said. “In fairness, most of those deals got done at historically lower rents. But other markets are also offering steep discounts and not having that level of activity.â€
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2011/03/11/southsides-synergy-competes-with.html?page=all
Of four deals he mentions, at least the Adecco deal is taking employees out of downtown (as noted, Modis). The deal itself was for a much lower amount of money, but it also involved fewer new jobs, and it doesn't have the downtown development angle that the EverBank deal does.
Second, by Chuck White's own statements, Everbank's current subleasing deal in one of the buildings is up anyway; to stay there they'd have to sign a new lease. With or without city money there's no reason to assume they'd stay there; this deal just gives them an incentive to move an area we want to populate, which is kind of the point behind "incentives".
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 09:22:26 AM
Note to PeeJayEss....Vikki is probably the most well known person/woman in the downtown. She and her husband Terry have been tireless, cheerful, and energetic in the face of odds that would make Lance Armstrong give up. In the downtown area where she passed out those flyers, she literally needs neither introduction or area code.
PS. If you want to help out downtown, drop by her UPS Store on Hogan Street to make copies, mail a package or get business cards. They are probably the best and nicest merchants in the entire urban core.
I'm not trying to rag on her personally by pointing out the poorly-formed letter and lack of openness to people from outside downtown Jax being inside of downtown Jax. I don't doubt that she's a great lady and I'd probably enjoy meeting her, but if she'd like to do business with more than 2000 people, she probably does need to introduce herself (unless I'm mistaken and everyone that has ever been in downtown Jax, besides myself, does in fact know her) - and adding her area code can't hurt either. You can hurt your business (and probability of response) by not including your area code. You can't do any damage by including it. Is this supposed to be a national city or a backwater?
And Iron Lance would never give up. America!
JEDC passed the Everbank deal. Now on to City Council.
What is up with the Tea Party and their seeming antipathy toward downtown?
Quote from: fsujax on June 09, 2011, 11:34:55 AM
JEDC passed the Everbank deal. Now on to City Council.
Good news.
Quote from: fsujax on June 09, 2011, 11:34:55 AM
JEDC passed the Everbank deal. Now on to City Council.
The city wants this and its a good deal. No worries here. Time for the Teabaggers to get a life.
the problems are the suburban sprawl has already happened.
We need serious leaps and bounds in public transportation before any kind of development plan wont result in more highways, traffic, etc
Quote from: Jaxson on June 09, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
What is up with the Tea Party and their seeming antipathy toward downtown?
They want to keep losing elections apparently.
Dare, often wrong but never in doubt. There is about 1mm sf available downtown.
Quote from: Jaxson on June 09, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
What is up with the Tea Party and their seeming antipathy toward downtown?
Because most of the FCTP are bitter land developers, construction contractors, and the types of people that were making boatloads of money off of sprawl. Now that there's an anti-sprawl view towards the city forming, these people are gettin' a-rip-rawrin'-hoppin' angry that they may not get a cut of the pie. The dossiers of the board members should tell you what you need to read.
Hank Madden Investment "adviser", most likely making money from the rest of these schmoes.
Billie Tucker Gettin' herself a sweet, sweet piece of that JEA meat.
Murray Goff Real Estate Broker
Lynne Holicky Ex Merrill Lynch credit industry (mortgage, maybe?).. no clue what she's doing now
Michael Jackson Generic name.
Morgan King Salesman for a McHouse building firm.
LeAnne King "Treasurer".... mmhmmm
Carole McManus Part of the Ponte Vedra Snake Oil crew
Kassie O’Brien Nooo clue.. most likely related to the above.
Gayla Reed Building materials (ceramic tile) sales
Andy Sanfilippo Aerospace industry (which is odd, because he stands to benefit from a more "liberal" agenda.)
Randy Tucker Construction industry, also sells crazy for a living.
Patsy Underwood Office products? Wtf?
All of this was done with a 5 minute google search.
Where was the outrage from tea partiers when the city gave 4 million dollars to Citibank to move from Baymeadows to Old St Augustine Road?
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 09, 2011, 01:20:01 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on June 09, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
What is up with the Tea Party and their seeming antipathy toward downtown?
Because most of the FCTP are bitter land developers, construction contractors, and the types of people that were making boatloads of money off of sprawl. Now that there's an anti-sprawl view towards the city forming, these people are gettin' a-rip-rawrin'-hoppin' angry that they may not get a cut of the pie. The dossiers of the board members should tell you what you need to read.
Hank Madden Investment "adviser", most likely making money from the rest of these schmoes.
Billie Tucker Gettin' herself a sweet, sweet piece of that JEA meat.
Murray Goff Real Estate Broker
Lynne Holicky Ex Merrill Lynch credit industry (mortgage, maybe?).. no clue what she's doing now
Michael Jackson Generic name.
Morgan King Salesman for a McHouse building firm.
LeAnne King "Treasurer".... mmhmmm
Carole McManus Part of the Ponte Vedra Snake Oil crew
Kassie O’Brien Nooo clue.. most likely related to the above.
Gayla Reed Building materials (ceramic tile) sales
Andy Sanfilippo Aerospace industry (which is odd, because he stands to benefit from a more "liberal" agenda.)
Randy Tucker Construction industry, also sells crazy for a living.
Patsy Underwood Office products? Wtf?
All of this was done with a 5 minute google search.
RiversideLoki, you are my new hero. Thanks for the research!
Quote from: bill on June 09, 2011, 01:12:34 PM
Dare, often wrong but never in doubt. There is about 1mm sf available downtown.
Irony.
Quote from: copperfiend on June 09, 2011, 01:22:39 PM
Where was the outrage from tea partiers when the city gave 4 million dollars to Citibank to move from Baymeadows to Old St Augustine Road?
To be fair, that deal went down in 2003, long before the Tea Party. Additionally, Citibank was also set on leaving the Baymeadows site, and there was worry they'd leave town completely if the St. Augustine Road complex didn't work out.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030703/met_11937161.shtml
The point remains, though, that there's no reason to assume EverBank would have stayed in (at least one of) its current Southside buildings when its subleasing agreement ends. Why not offer incentives for a location somewhere we want to develop?
Still, I don't doubt that if the Citibank deal happened today, some of these same people would oppose it.
If council approves this deal, I'll have more respect for them. This is only a small piece of the puzzle, but if they keep it going in that direction, we'll soon be the city that we should have been all along.
All cities have a dormant peirod. Look at Rome, Rome stood in decline for almost 1,000 years.
Quote from: urbaknight on June 09, 2011, 02:10:52 PM
If council approves this deal, I'll have more respect for them. This is only a small piece of the puzzle, but if they keep it going in that direction, we'll soon be the city that we should have been all along.
All cities have a dormant peirod. Look at Rome, Rome stood in decline for almost 1,000 years.
I think they will. I mean, why wouldnt they? Its a win for both parties. Hopefully it does not get deferred or something crazy. The city council has been pretty quiet about the deal which leads me to think they are for it.
So the collective of people acting in their own interests encouraging development of their properties in the suburbs are evil
however, the collective of people acting in their own interests encouraging development of their properties in downtown are heroes
did i get that right Loki?
Quote from: Gravity on June 09, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
So the collective of people acting in their own interests encouraging development of their properties in the suburbs are evil
however, the collective of people acting in their own interests encouraging development of their properties in downtown are heroes
did i get that right Loki?
No, I'm saying gas for my Hummer that I bought while the suburban sprawl movement with Bush era tax breaks by writing it off as a business expense is really friggin' 'spensive. So I'm going to do what I can to bring the mo's to me and make as much money off of my neighbors and the city as possible, screw downtown. America, USA, USA! Why do you hate America, socialist?
What I'm *really* getting at here is that the notion that these First Coast Tea Party types are the "everyday average-Joe worker types" is disingenuous at the very least. The same goes for just about every board of every Tea Party group in the nation. It's a "lambs to the slaughter" kinda deal. People that have no chance of gaining any part of the social piece of the pie that their Tea Party leaders profess should be theirs, all the time being used as a power grab by people whose ship has done sailed in order to gain more cash, all the while screaming "tax cuts" and "liberals are evil".
The hilarious thing is that it's so transparent that it's sad. From the top of the Tea Party phenomenon you see the Koch brothers (some of the wealthiest people in the United States), down to our little local rag tag bunch of "everyman" wealthy investors, construction company owners, and Monavie sales-chickens.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 02:19:22 PM
huh?
The suburbs were totally created by government policy, Gravity, not the collective of people acting in their own interests.
They are supported by massive tax investments from outside their areas, and drain the public coffers. The suburbs, as presently conceived are only possible through the worst kind of government policy and inefficient utilization of tax resources.
huh?
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 09, 2011, 02:27:05 PM
No, I'm saying gas for my Hummer that I bought while the suburban sprawl movement with Bush era tax breaks by writing it off as a business expense is really friggin' 'spensive. So I'm going to do what I can to bring the mo's to me and make as much money off of my neighbors and the city as possible, screw downtown. America, USA, USA! Why do you hate America, socialist?
So all we got for any kind of rational inquisitive observation is a straw man?
If government created the problem, how exactly is more government going to solve it?
*** but the point I am trying to make is that to pretend "the other side" is made up any differently is just mental masturbation. And to edit your post to try and make anyone opposing the somewhat equally whacko liberal side of government planning seem kooky is a but disingenuous as well.
There is a roll for government, but I think we have strayed a long way from where that should be. Your tax dollars go a long way in funding much more ridiculous things than suburbs.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 09, 2011, 01:51:01 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on June 09, 2011, 01:22:39 PM
Where was the outrage from tea partiers when the city gave 4 million dollars to Citibank to move from Baymeadows to Old St Augustine Road?
To be fair, that deal went down in 2003, long before the Tea Party. Additionally, Citibank was also set on leaving the Baymeadows site, and there was worry they'd leave town completely if the St. Augustine Road complex didn't work out.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030703/met_11937161.shtml
The point remains, though, that there's no reason to assume EverBank would have stayed in (at least one of) its current Southside buildings when its subleasing agreement ends. Why not offer incentives for a location somewhere we want to develop?
Still, I don't doubt that if the Citibank deal happened today, some of these same people would oppose it.
My point was the people that call themselves "tea partiers" were still around prior to the so-called tea party movement. Most of them are nothing but the good ol' boy network of this town. The issue is clearly downtown and has little to do with the drop in the bucket being given to Everbank, partially by the state anyway.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 09, 2011, 02:27:05 PM
Monavie sales-chickens.
OH MY GOD. I fell off my chair at work laughing my ass off reading that bit.-Josh
Dare, do not know why I bother but here goes. That number is for space that is readily available and what most companies/businesses would consider leasing. There are other vacant buildings that need so much work and TI dollars that are not feasible. Even though you will have some inane comment, this is my industry and I know the numbers.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 02:52:01 PM
Please tell me that you are aware that the suburbs do not generate enough tax money to support themselves, by and large?
Are we talking about property tax? And support what: roads, schools, hospitals, etc...? Developers share the cost of construction by and large.
I am not arguing with you, because i have never seen real statistics on these... but just by looking around town, knowing relative property values and transaction volumes ( if we are including the percentage of sales tax we might get) i would wager that a Mandarin more than likely generates more tax revenue than any equally populated piece of the "urban core"
But i think, where you may have an argument in other cities where there was a larger urban community in the ww2 era that migrated outwards, Jacksonville was always smaller, more rural, satellite communities that grew together over time. Population increases contributed to the sprawl ( which contributes to tax revenues) and I do agree, poor planning and zoning did have a place in the causes. But so did bad schools ( still a problem) bad crime, and variety of other social aspects: cheap gas and land... not necessarily things you can control.
But to say that we can solve this by urbanizing, i think we miss a larger perspective. The first of which is the point I always make is that a lot of the "urban core" is not currently a desirable place to live or do business ( depending on your business) or to attract viable prospects of either. A lot of work has been made in Springfield, but that is only recently.
This, downtown and riverside is not large enough to support an urban center of the size of a city that we are projected to be. Much more progress will have to be made in the surrounding areas, including zoning issues and perhaps even ripping out a "historic" piece here and there, but then you are up against the same battles we are currently talking about.
We need more long term solutions, progress is being made, but in the same modular way the problems took hold. Relaxing development regulation does not have to mean the same thing as destroying the environment or compromising historic values but some sacrifices will have to be made. This type of fight against the status quo is everywhere... to demonize a specific group because they disagree with you, well... that is no way to make progress.
Will this corporate deal really help? I think, Stephen, you might find the same arguments about downtown not supporting itself. Especially with the expenses that come out of the City purse. But it is the type of Corporate welfare everyone gripes at the Tea Party for defacto supporting... and here they stand against it, and they are still painted as being wrong, bad and against their own principles.
I would be interested in seeing actual stats to support your premise, as it might change my mind about some of the arguments you present, but until then i am just not buying it, not in jacksonville anyways.
Neither people promoting downtown development, nor people promoting development in Southside, are "evil", and there's nothing wrong with promoting one's own interests. But really, the relocation part of this deal will cost $2.75 million in taxpayer money. Long term, and probably short term, the infrastructure costs to taxpayers of more development in Southside would be well over that amount. Spending less money to advance development in area that already has infrastructure, versus more money to build new infrastructure, is in everybody's interest.
Additionally, I just don't buy that this deal will put the hurt on Southside. Elsewhere I quoted the Business Journal as saying that other than this, every major deal the city has made in the last 8 months has been in Southside.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
Roads and highways are just freaking expensive-- but thats only a part of the cost that you have to make up for when you build in an undeveloped area.
Roads, and even schools, are built in a large part by developers. I know from working with several developer in Duval surrounding counties, getting permits, licenses and all the assorted fees ( a majority of the other revenue of the city, which existing development produces a very small amount.) after a certain size and scope you either kick in development costs, or do the work yourself. Also regulated public service providers also provide for expenses in the same manner for keeping up these areas that house their capital as well. So there isn't quite the direct correlation you are implying there.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
Here is a quick bit of data for you.
The City of Jacksonville has among the lowest taxes in the country.
50% of the city budget is spent on public safety---meaning police and fire.
but only 30% of the revenue comes from property taxes. Where does that additional revenue come from in the suburbs?
I would once again have to point out that 30% of new development in place like mandarin, intercoastal and surrounding counties would be substantially more money than the 30% of an equally populated piece of the urbanized areas. So right now this is being redistributed to favor the more urbanized areas, not the other way around. And, in all honesty, if you look at where the Police and fire and other publicly funded services are performed and utilized this distribution might be skewed even further.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
When you build new development you have to construct new plumbing, new drainage, new roads. For the roads you have to install lighting and signage, and then you have to maintain them every year. The medians have to be maintained with lawn service guys. New cops have to be hired. Those cops need cars, uniforms, computers, supervisors and weapons. A new firestation has to be built. Schools have to be constructed and staffed. Libraries and parks have to be installed.
Do you honestly think that property taxes from the new houses pay for that expense? They don't. It has to be shifted over from already built out areas, and then it takes decades of property owners paying their taxes regularly just to pay off the initial infrastructure expenses. Who is paying for the maintenance of all that infrastructure in the meantime?
Once again, after working in construction and development, dealing with the city on permitting, fees, licesning and regulation, this argument falls apart. Most drainage, plumbing and even hardware for easements are covered in the permitting costs, or built outright as part of the project. It might not have always been that way, but for at least the last 20 years it is. You might convince me in an argument about maintaining infrastructure, but once again... there is a reason people moved that far away and those people get taxed accordingly.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
I will be glad to provide you with the data you are asking for, much of it is already available here on this site, if you look around.
I like your site, I enjoy reading the updates and I appreciate the information you provide. I think you do a great job that is severely lacking traditional news sources in this city, and hope you keep up the great work. I respect what you, and others are trying to do and I hope for this City that it is successful. But i think you are missing some big picture items. Jacksonville needs rethinking, we need an identity. We need similar solutions as other cities, but we need to make things work here. The pockets of preservation societies and development groups are doing good, but need to work together.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
But I was responding to your statement that the suburbs were created by collective action working in the self interests of the collected individuals.
That comment was aimed at a cheap shot at the Tea Party, and blatant generalizations which the opponents claim they represent. You at least have to admit that the majority of the vocal supporters of downtown development will personally benefit from investment in this area. I do not personally think there is anything wrong with profiting from investments, but if the capital comes from the public purse at your persuasion something isn't kosher.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 03:47:25 PM
They werent. Suburbia was created over a period of about 40 years by liberal Progressive Era city planning notions in order to demassify the urban areas. It was believed that overcrowding, rather than bad design was the major cause of death, disease, crime and poverty. They created zoning laws which basically made it impossible to build family homes in the urban cores and forced new development to move outward on non dense land tracts that were zoned for single family use.
Havent you ever wondered why things are zoned the way they are?
No, people with means will escape regulation and find a place where they can follow their own rules. If this is a bad thing, well... we would all still be living in 13 colonies, or even back in Europe. Regulation is needed, but somehow the "unintended consequences" always come around to bite good intentions in the arse. Big picture... it is what I am preaching.
Keep up the good work.
Regarding the tax base of the urban core and a place like Mandarin, are you all only evaluating things from a residential/commercial viewpoint? I ask because the urban core is heavily industrial and littered with railyards, large manufacturing plants, port facilities and private shipping terminals, the majority of which, also pay property taxes as well as provide higher paying jobs than retail, service and back office uses tend to do.
QuoteOnce again, after working in construction and development, dealing with the city on permitting, fees, licesning and regulation, this argument falls apart. Most drainage, plumbing and even hardware for easements are covered in the permitting costs, or built outright as part of the project. It might not have always been that way, but for at least the last 20 years it is. You might convince me in an argument about maintaining infrastructure, but once again... there is a reason people moved that far away and those people get taxed accordingly.
Those fees offset the costs... not totally cover them.
I am by no means saying i know everything, I was simply pointing out that it is not so cut and dry. The argument that the development business is benefiting as freeloaders off of the city and tax revenues is a very silly notion. Limited fees? By your own argument, where does that other 70% of revenue come from? Where would this city be without development?
All those expansions allow people to get downtown to work and play, to spend money, and to be taxed in doing so. So once again, the correlation is not direct. Downtown, by itself, in property taxes and sales taxes of people who strictly live there, would not, could not stand without the rest of city. Likewise the suburbs, which I never said sprung up from nowhere, could not sustain without a central city.
I like the plan Atlanta did, I think it was in the 90's. They denied any new permits outside the beltway until there was a certain amount of progress on renewing blighted areas internally.
This Everbank plan has some benefits, reusing space and infrastructure. Bringing people to work downtown. But we need to solve the problems that not only drove people out in the first place, but what is keeping them out now. These are serious problems. Anything else is just going to be a band-aid.
Quote from: Gravity on June 09, 2011, 05:10:44 PM
I am by no means saying i know everything, I was simply pointing out that it is not so cut and dry. The argument that the development business is benefiting as freeloaders off of the city and tax revenues is a very silly notion. Limited fees? By your own argument, where does that other 70% of revenue come from? Where would this city be without development?
All those expansions allow people to get downtown to work and play, to spend money, and to be taxed in doing so. So once again, the correlation is not direct. Downtown, by itself, in property taxes and sales taxes of people who strictly live there, would not, could not stand without the rest of city. Likewise the suburbs, which I never said sprung up from nowhere, could not sustain without a central city.
I like the plan Atlanta did, I think it was in the 90's. They denied any new permits outside the beltway until there was a certain amount of progress on renewing blighted areas internally.
This Everbank plan has some benefits, reusing space and infrastructure. Bringing people to work downtown. But we need to solve the problems that not only drove people out in the first place, but what is keeping them out now. These are serious problems. Anything else is just going to be a band-aid.
Of course developers aren't freeloaders (at least not all of them), and we'd get no where without them. The issue is what they're developing. Redevelopment in areas that already have infrastructure will be cheaper for the taxpayers in the long run than building and maintaining new infrastructure for new developments. Obviously not all extra-urban development like that is bad, but downtown development, especially in cities like this where the downtown has declined so much, will be about as good a use of our resources as a city can make.
You're right about the need to solve the problems that drive/keep people out of downtown. I'd argue this move is a step in that right direction.
Developers aren't freeloaders, they just externalize their costs!
Developers ARE freeloaders. The concurrency scheme of the past two decades hasn't come close to covering the costs associated with sprawl, amd now our governor has eliminated even those basic required contributions.
Quote from: Gravity on June 09, 2011, 05:10:44 PM
I am by no means saying i know everything, I was simply pointing out that it is not so cut and dry. The argument that the development business is benefiting as freeloaders off of the city and tax revenues is a very silly notion. Limited fees? By your own argument, where does that other 70% of revenue come from? Where would this city be without development?
All those expansions allow people to get downtown to work and play, to spend money, and to be taxed in doing so. So once again, the correlation is not direct. Downtown, by itself, in property taxes and sales taxes of people who strictly live there, would not, could not stand without the rest of city. Likewise the suburbs, which I never said sprung up from nowhere, could not sustain without a central city.
I like the plan Atlanta did, I think it was in the 90's. They denied any new permits outside the beltway until there was a certain amount of progress on renewing blighted areas internally.
This Everbank plan has some benefits, reusing space and infrastructure. Bringing people to work downtown. But we need to solve the problems that not only drove people out in the first place, but what is keeping them out now. These are serious problems. Anything else is just going to be a band-aid.
exactly. This regulation would work...at least for Atlanta- makes common sense, but here eh... it will take its time, but this everbank deal is sure a start. The tides are changing. But for anyone against the repopulating of the core (for the good of the tax payer and/or city)- I would really like to know their true motives. Either dumb or greedy.
From the FTU:
http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-06-09/story/jedc-approves-275m-subsidy-everbank-move-downtown
Interesting quotes from all sides.
Quote
Joe Andrews, a board member of Concerned Taxpayers, said downtown property owners and businesses that would gain from EverBank's relocation should bear the expense. "Get those who are going to benefit to pay the cost, and leave the rest of this alone," he said.
But advocates, including business owners and residents, said having a vibrant, growing downtown helps the entire city. EverBank's move would increase the workforce in the downtown core by 7 percent and cut the vacancy rate by 17 percent, Lorince said.
It's like they're speaking two different languages.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 10, 2011, 10:40:02 AM
Joe Andrews
QuoteAfter school Joe returned to his career in construction. He moved to Jacksonville in 1986 to work for a local construction company as a project manager. In 1995 he retired from full time employment, but has maintained contact with the industry through various freelance activities related to construction.
See the trend?
Anybody know what interests Patricia "Pat" McBridge has? I am sure she is connected to the construction industry somehow.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 10, 2011, 10:40:02 AM
From the FTU:
http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-06-09/story/jedc-approves-275m-subsidy-everbank-move-downtown
Interesting quotes from all sides.
Quote
Joe Andrews, a board member of Concerned Taxpayers, said downtown property owners and businesses that would gain from EverBank's relocation should bear the expense. "Get those who are going to benefit to pay the cost, and leave the rest of this alone," he said.
But advocates, including business owners and residents, said having a vibrant, growing downtown helps the entire city. EverBank's move would increase the workforce in the downtown core by 7 percent and cut the vacancy rate by 17 percent, Lorince said.
It's like they're speaking two different languages.
Right!! That does not make sense. How could anyone be so selfish so say that the business that will benefit from the relocarion should bare the cost? DT business are already struggling. It amazes me the things some people say out their mouth. If they were one of the struggling business owners, they would feel much differently about the subject.
Thanks. Yeah my bad on the extra letter in her name.
McBride is presumably the "P. McBride" who posts regularly in the comments section at jacksonville.com. She commented at this article, saying a few things about the EverBank deal and then going into a defense of the Tea Party.
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2011, 09:10:11 AM
Noone. Are we too broke to bring jobs downtown or do we have enough money to spend on a recreational peir?
Because unless I missed something, It doesnt seem like youve volunteered to personally pay for the build out of the river improvements.
[/quote]
Stephen, I may not have said that I will personally pay for the build out of the river improvements but I do believe in my heart that given the opportunity to participate that it will happen immediately and organically.
1. The Pier. Councilman Redman do something! He still can before it escalates to the biggest joke in the state of Florida in my opinion.
2. Hogans Creek. And the key ingrediant is SWEAT EQUITY. Time and work. Uncompensated for a cause that you believe in. Unless its the cupcakes on the 23 in Springfield. And if nothing happens so be it. Just came back from behind the Jacksonville Historical Society, Old St. Lukes hospital.
Low tide. Right under the FDOT overpass and just 20 -25 feet from where we have been putting in I pulled out a barnicled bike. It is out of there. Also pulled out a box spring that was along the bank. Make no mistake about it its a dump.
After leaving I'm pulling on Bay St. and all these people are just lined up over the bridge looking at the creek. I almost wanted to roll down the window and shout to them "Don't worry. Something is happening."
Stephen, Lets kayak Hogans Creek. We can call it the "Core Exchange" We need to change it up.
Quote from: wsansewjs on June 09, 2011, 09:43:15 AM
Noone, every post I have seen you made here always has been about the river and You are like a person with a large pan and a wooden spatula, smacking it to make loud noise about it. No, I am not attacking you. I am actually really happy and glad to know we have a loyal and fervor supporter of our heritage, the St. Johns River.
The downtown is TOO WEAK to support ANY recreational or anything that is NOT important at the moment. We need to restart the economic engine and rejuvenates the heart & core of the Downtown.
Once we can get the momentum going with a huge economic impact, then we can start to bleed the money over to the different things we ALL wanted to dramatically improve the quality of life in Jacksonville including protecting the amazing river, helping Springfield, making JTA the best transit system on the planet, save the Annie school, make the downtown a destination for the young generations
AND TOURIST, and much much much MORE. I can go on all day.
Until then, your banging is not loud enough until the downtown comes back rolling and kicking. We will all be part of that stampede. We are in this together, and you are not alone always, Noone. I actually do want to rent a kayak, and take up a paddling with you to Hogan's Creek one weekend.
-Josh
[/quote]
Josh, I'd love to paddle Hogans Creek with you. Want to go tomorrow? Don't worry about bringing a pan or spatula because we'll find that along the side of the creek. But lets make some noise together. We'll Make it Happen.
721-3321-home
Stephen, Call me. I'm at the house. 721-3321 We can be on the water in less than an hour. I'll show you and you can then tell me if there is potential. We can be done before 7-7:30
Stephen, No taxpayer dollars. What a beautiful night. Its an incoming tide and if you are free just for a couple of hours we can be on the water. One thing I was doing was making the launch site easier. You also need to see these Green Heron chicks before they leave the nest.
I'm just waiting for the phone to ring. 721-3321. No pressure. I know its spur of the moment but just let me know because I'll be heading outside and changing it up again. (LOL)
Stephen, There are so many pieces to the puzzle. Hogans Creek is Dist. 7. On another thread tufsu and Jimmy pointed out to Scott Wilson that the pier is actually in Dist.4. Its beautiful out. It has cooled down. If you want to go and I'll explain more. Not to be rude. If you want to go another time that is OK. Give me a call. Now I've got to let the dog out. I'll check back one more time.
Its all legislation.
2010-604
2010-856
Cherry picked pieces of legislation. Huge Waterways Commission meeting in 4 days.
Shipyards/Landmar
Palms Creek Fish Camp
St. Johns River Alliance
2011-241
2011-239
Who is going to pay? The private sector if you are allowed to participate.
Back to the great outdoors!
So, the City should sell the Pier to the private sector so they can develop it?
Everbank deal passed! Yes!! We did something right for a change. (whew)
I'm so happy about this! Hopegully, this brings more business downtown.
This is good news... :)
I was watching the news last night at 6 and they were interviewing Abel Harding and asked him about the EverBank deal. I loved how he brought up the $500,000 the City gave BCBS to make intersection improvements for their sprawling Southside campus, he was very accurate when he said no one made a peep about that. Great job Abel for telling like it is!
Abel Harding is a sharp guy. He's the best thing the T-U has had in a long time.
No one messes with Abel Harding! :)
-Josh
Quote from: fsujax on June 29, 2011, 08:28:48 AM
I was watching the news last night at 6 and they were interviewing Abel Harding and asked him about the EverBank deal. I loved how he brought up the $500,000 the City gave BCBS to make intersection improvements for their sprawling Southside campus, he was very accurate when he said no one made a peep about that. Great job Abel for telling like it is!
Any idea of how many jobs that $500k gift to BCBS will create? Do we get any type of return on investment for that expenditure? Other than making BCBS a little happier, there's not much.
No report on that. It will probably make it easier for them to relocate more employees to their campus!
And lets not forget the large gift we gave Citibank to build their new mansion that is located almost in St Augustine... People in this city kills me. There is so much bais in regard to DT. They claim the Everbank deal is making this suburbs vs downtown rilvary. But its actually the citizens that are doing it.
Quote from: fsujax on June 29, 2011, 08:28:48 AM
I was watching the news last night at 6 and they were interviewing Abel Harding and asked him about the EverBank deal. I loved how he brought up the $500,000 the City gave BCBS to make intersection improvements for their sprawling Southside campus, he was very accurate when he said no one made a peep about that. Great job Abel for telling like it is!
I saw the same report... I thought it was pretty good!