Urban Retail Renaissance?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2884-4th-street-live.jpg)
A new crop of projects has the urban retail sector poised to finally take flight. Will there be enough wallets to go around?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/646
how much do the units go for in brooklyn park?
The first phase has been converted into apartments. No word on the rental rates, although they claim that they'll be "affordable".
122 Ocean (if done right) would benefit downtown the most...that said, Brooklyn Park has the best chance to actually have an impact on the entire urban core!
I noticed on the 122 Ocean website, construction was supposed to commence Fall 2007.....any word on this???
I heard it will be another year before anything starts happening there.
Ouch, no mention of retail in Uptown Springfield?
A bunch of developers and business owners there are spending close to $40k on a retail corridor study. Even Hionedes is participating, and Cesery starts his project at Main/3rd in Feb 08. Street is being torn up now, and in 18-24 mos, I hope there will be nicer looking street AND retail.
Quote from: fsujax on November 21, 2007, 09:25:59 AM
I noticed on the 122 Ocean website, construction was supposed to commence Fall 2007.....any word on this???
they are still playing with concepts....apparently they are looking at parking on the roof with a connection to the 11E garage....then they will build condos above the parking
the so-called grocery (less than 6,000 sf) will open in Fall 2008 at best....also the demand for a pub in the basement is high so that may open by next fall as well
Quote from: zoo on November 21, 2007, 09:44:45 AM
Ouch, no mention of retail in Uptown Springfield?
A bunch of developers and business owners there are spending close to $40k on a retail corridor study. Even Hionedes is participating, and Cesery starts his project at Main/3rd in Feb 08. Street is being torn up now, and in 18-24 mos, I hope there will be nicer looking street AND retail.
No mention because no major retail projects have been publicly announced. The four mentioned here appear to be further along (three claim to be breaking ground within a year) and they all include more than 50,000sf of retail/office space to be developed by a single entity. However don't worry, when something specifically is announced in Springfield it will definately be added to the mix.
Great article. Brooklyn Park could be the lit fuse that leads to a growth explosion in the core and finally re-bridge the gap between Riverside and LaVilla. The next peice of the puzzle is the Bay Street proposal that will better link LaVilla to the CBD.
All of these sound great. Do you have any rendering for the Bay Street proposal? Where is the first photo from?
Quote from: zoo on November 21, 2007, 09:44:45 AMOuch, no mention of retail in Uptown Springfield?
A bunch of developers and business owners there are spending close to $40k on a retail corridor study. Even Hionedes is participating, and Cesery starts his project at Main/3rd in Feb 08. Street is being torn up now, and in 18-24 mos, I hope there will be nicer looking street AND retail.
I think 18 to 24 months for the Springfield Main St project is very optimistic. It will probably take at least 3 years, and in that time you will likely see the current businesses close down. These projects are well known for killing off businesses.
Also, even after the project is complete, the medians will make the businesses inaccessible to half the people driving through.
We don't have a rendering of the Bay Street development, but we're working on it. The first photo is 4th Street Live, in downtown Louisville, KY.
from their websiteQuoteFourth Street Live! is Louisville's premier entertainment and retail district located on Fourth Street, between Liberty and Muhammad Ali Boulevard, in the heart of historic downtown Louisville, KY. Fourth Street Live! is a short walk from downtown hotels, waterfront park, Main Street, Slugger Field, and other major attractions. Fourth Street Live! is your one stop destination for retail, dining and entertainment!
Restaurants and entertainment venues include Hard Rock Cafe, Red Star Tavern, TGIFriday's, Sully's, Lucky Strike Lanes and Maker's Mark Bourbon House & Lounge. Fourth Street Live! features a variety of bars and nightclubs including Felt billiards lounge. There is also live music at Saddle Ridge and Howl at the Moon.
Fourth Street Live! also features a major food court with brands such as Wendy's and Subway. Retail amenities include Borders Books & Music, Office Depot, Fashion Shop, EB Games, T-Mobile, and others.
Fourth Street Live! welcomes everyone to enjoy an afternoon with the family or a night on the town at Louisville's premier dining, entertainment and retail destinaton!
122 Ocean is somewhat different (more local oriented), but the other's plans seem to be similar to the concept of 4th Street Live.
Going to need something besides a bus and a unfinished Skyway...
JTA Time to pull your heads out!
Ocklawaha
Completing the skyway would be a great first step forward.
The skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway. Two (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway. If anything, JTA needs to sell off whatever land it has near it's remaining skyway stops and encourage TODs. Then take the money earned and use it to enhance the skyway by finding a way to make it more accessible to the rest of the downtown core.
No doubt. The remainder of the core does, however, need to be connected via a completed system. By linking the sports district to the rest of the core, these developments and new residents will benefit immensely.
That's even a better reason to sell all excess land near the remaining skyway stops for dense TODs. The profits made could be used to help fund the expansion of the system to other areas of downtown, which would make it more viable and user friendly for the potential projects rising next to it.
QuoteThe skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway.
Perhaps to plan, break ground, do construction, this is true. However, once completed, without REAL transit just getting into and out of these places will make them play second to anything in the Burbs. We MetroJacksonville types all love the City, the downtown etc. But many do not give a chirp in a carload about location. The whole "draw" will come down to, "What do they have to sell?" and "How easy can I get in and out?" In both cases without the Skyway completed, without decent park and ride, without any real "system" in downtown, they probably won't last long. THIS IS JTA'S FAULT! They are in charge of being our "experts" and they have utterly failed downtown Jacksonville. Their newest plans are only going to make things much, much worse. QuoteTwo (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway.
Yes, I noted this, it would make a good study to see which centers do the best, 1/2 transit based or the no transit based. It would be interesting if the developers are allowed to be maverick enough to do some REAL foward thinking. Example, build "AROUND" the Skyway line, IE: the Skyway will go THROUGH the buildings. Not a bus, not a BRT bus, not a articulated bus, if anything they will kill the hotel, theater and cafe's on the walk. The Skyway was sold to us because it is CLEAN, and ELECTRIC, and ABOVE THE TRAFFIC. Though it has turned out to be a hundred million dollar turkey, no small part of that failure lays with the agency that built half of it then abandoned the technology to chase another dead end rainbow. This comes from the guy that was the largest thorn in the side of the Skyway in it's planning stages. Now in a limited sense, I am perhaps it's best friend. Sort of like loving the old Edsel... While the car is nearly worthless, once built and delivered, one might as well try and figure a way to keep the chrome polished. Quote
If anything, JTA needs to sell off whatever land it has near it's remaining skyway stops and encourage TODs.
Again, you know I agree on this one, JTA doesn't need to be one of the largest land owners in the City, when our bus system lags behind GAINESVILLE and ST. PETE! If JTA knew what a TOD was they might have a chance to encourage TOD's. Their BRT based idea, that anything built near ANY form of transportation equates to a TOD is insane. But then the BRT boys had to bend the rules in order to claim they could develop TOD's with buses. Bottom line, if the Skyway is NOT completed to the Stadium, San Marco, and Riverside, we would be better off breaking it up and hauling it out to enhance the Jettys. At least at the mouth of the river it might assist the port. Meanwhile, to continue to charge a "fine" to park near these downtown venues without extending a FREE SKYWAY ride to them, will result in a killer tax. Maybe we need a slogan for downtown development, might I suggest, "JUST ASK SEARS ROEBUCK"...Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 21, 2007, 11:38:08 AM
QuoteThe skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway.
Perhaps to plan, break ground, do construction, this is true. However, once completed, without REAL transit just getting into and out of these places will make them play second to anything in the Burbs. We MetroJacksonville types all love the City, the downtown etc. But many do not give a chirp in a carload about location. The whole "draw" will come down to, "What do they have to sell?" and "How easy can I get in and out?" In both cases without the Skyway completed, without decent park and ride, without any real "system" in downtown, they probably won't last long. THIS IS JTA'S FAULT! They are in charge of being our "experts" and they have utterly failed downtown Jacksonville. Their newest plans are only going to make things much, much worse.
These aren't SJTC type regional centers. There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites. There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 21, 2007, 11:38:08 AMQuoteTwo (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway.
Yes, I noted this, it would make a good study to see which centers do the best, 1/2 transit based or the no transit based. It would be interesting if the developers are allowed to be maverick enough to do some REAL foward thinking. Example, build "AROUND" the Skyway line, IE: the Skyway will go THROUGH the buildings.
Neither plans to build around and over the skyway. However, a study using the skyway as "transit" will probably not return decent results since the skyway (in its current state) is a poor example of transit.
QuoteAgain, you know I agree on this one, JTA doesn't need to be one of the largest land owners in the City, when our bus system lags behind GAINESVILLE and ST. PETE! If JTA knew what a TOD was they might have a chance to encourage TOD's. Their BRT based idea, that anything built near ANY form of transportation equates to a TOD is insane. But then the BRT boys had to bend the rules in order to claim they could develop TOD's with buses. Bottom line, if the Skyway is NOT completed to the Stadium, San Marco, and Riverside, we would be better off breaking it up and hauling it out to enhance the Jettys. At least at the mouth of the river it might assist the port. Meanwhile, to continue to charge a "fine" to park near these downtown venues without extending a FREE SKYWAY ride to them, will result in a killer tax. Maybe we need a slogan for downtown development, might I suggest, "JUST ASK SEARS ROEBUCK"...[/color][/b]
Ocklawaha
Imo, JTA should leave the transit oriented development planning up to the professionals.
QuoteThese aren't SJTC type regional centers. There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites. There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.
Accessible from I-10/I-95 is great IF you can get there from here. The trouble I see is a lack of access, lack of parking, high parking rates and a fine for parking on the street. All of these equal "Neanderthal Planning" at the City and JTA levels. Downtown has perhaps 5,000 residents M/L in the urban core (once things get built) but will a community of 5,000 support a super theater complex, mall and such without outside help? I doubt it. If it could, every little Midwestern and Southwestern "ville" from Ohio to New Mexico, would have one. Many of these places have far more then 5,000 to draw from, and they don't nail you with fines for parking. Some even have transit, and a few even have LRT or more advanced transit. I would buy into the easy access IF JTA were to build a parking facility alongside the freeway, with dedicated ramps and a built in Skyway or Transit station. So far, JTA is the World leader in how NOT TO PLAN such a facility.
The Kings Avenue Station and Parking Garage in San Marco/Southbank are a prime example of STUPID Transit Planning. The banner reads "PARK HERE!" (to visit downtown is implied). Trouble is, the nearest exit is Emerson Street!! Then God help you unless you are a Jacksonville lifer, to find you way to the garage... Oh there is a ramp at Prudential or Mary Street, but WTF? You would already be downtown before you exit to go BACKWARDS to the dumb garage location. Hello? Anyone home at JTA? With these same folks doing the plan for the Easy Access in Fairfield, or Brooklyn or where ever, we are so screwed.Quote
Neither plans to build around and over the skyway. However, a study using the skyway as "transit" will probably not return decent results since the skyway (in its current state) is a poor example of transit.
So right Lake, if the Skyway were even what they promised us back in 1980, it would soar above where it is today. We don't have an Edsel, we have 1/2 of an Edsel, and JTA promised us a "FREE" Rolls Royce. Just trust in the JTA experts and our Transit problems would be solved forever. Now, it looks like only MetroJacksonville and our tiny band of brothers is willing to hold their feet to the fire, City Hall and Media are warming to the glow of their latest Boondoggle. Future students at UNF's renowned school of Transportation and Logistics will be able to click on the link for "STUPID" and JTA or an image of Downtown Jacksonville will appear...QuoteImo, JTA should leave the transit oriented development planning up to the professionals.
Again, we are on the same page. But in our most Republican of Cities, we plan to have a system of Socialized Transit Oriented Places. JTA will buy out the private sector, they will build the C-store, laundry mat, and newstand and attach it to our 100 acre transit stops. They will make it work, and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Our glorious leaders will thus show the World the superiority of the Jacksonville System, over the damned Capitalists! I'll tell you Lake, not even Uncle Joe Stalin or Chairman Mao, could have cooked up a worse plan then what JTA has in store for our fair City.
Today our citizens sleep. In the 1960's we would all be in the street DEMANDING they do what they promised. Sometimes I miss those days.Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 21, 2007, 02:18:52 PM
QuoteThese aren't SJTC type regional centers. There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites. There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.
Accessible from I-10/I-95 is great IF you can get there from here. The trouble I see is a lack of access, lack of parking, high parking rates and a fine for parking on the street. All of these equal "Neanderthal Planning" at the City and JTA levels. Downtown has perhaps 5,000 residents M/L in the urban core (once things get built) but will a community of 5,000 support a super theater complex, mall and such without outside help? I doubt it. If it could, every little Midwestern and Southwestern "ville" from Ohio to New Mexico, would have one. Many of these places have far more then 5,000 to draw from, and they don't nail you with fines for parking. Some even have transit, and a few even have LRT or more advanced transit. I would buy into the easy access IF JTA were to build a parking facility alongside the freeway, with dedicated ramps and a built in Skyway or Transit station. So far, JTA is the World leader in how NOT TO PLAN such a facility.
Both will supply their own parking. When I mention "the urban core", I'm including Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, San Marco, East Jax, Durkeeville, Brooklyn, Downtown, Murray Hill, etc. The Brooklyn/LaVilla locations for commercial development are more accessible then heading to the Southside, Regency area or Clay County. The urban core's population is high enought to support retail catering to it.
Brooklyn Park site plan (parking garages in gray)
(http://www.brooklynparkjax.com/Site_Plan/images/SitePlanGroundFloor.jpg)
QuoteThe Kings Avenue Station and Parking Garage in San Marco/Southbank are a prime example of STUPID Transit Planning. The banner reads "PARK HERE!" (to visit downtown is implied). Trouble is, the nearest exit is Emerson Street!! Then God help you unless you are a Jacksonville lifer, to find you way to the garage... Oh there is a ramp at Prudential or Mary Street, but WTF? You would already be downtown before you exit to go BACKWARDS to the dumb garage location. Hello? Anyone home at JTA? With these same folks doing the plan for the Easy Access in Fairfield, or Brooklyn or where ever, we are so screwed.[/color][/b]
No doubt, I don't understand how it passed the conceptual stage with it's inaccessible location for commuters.
And there is perfectly good retail/ food space in the Everbank building and not one unt is occupied, unless you count the bank on the ground floor. What up with that? A lunch joint would make a killing (if I had money to invest.) That place Johnny's across the street is packed Mon- Fri 11:30-2 and the food is ok. The area is Brooklyn Park ajacent and on the proposed trolley line. Just an FYI for those with the wallet.
Quote from: Lunican on November 21, 2007, 10:20:03 AM
Quote from: zoo on November 21, 2007, 09:44:45 AM
Ouch, no mention of retail in Uptown Springfield?
A bunch of developers and business owners there are spending close to $40k on a retail corridor study. Even Hionedes is participating, and Cesery starts his project at Main/3rd in Feb 08. Street is being torn up now, and in 18-24 mos, I hope there will be nicer looking street AND retail.
I think 18 to 24 months for the Springfield Main St project is very optimistic. It will probably take at least 3 years, and in that time you will likely see the current businesses close down. These projects are well known for killing off businesses.
Also, even after the project is complete, the medians will make the businesses inaccessible to half the people driving through.
Wow, its going on 48 months since that prediction. Just goes to show sometimes these things take time.
Bay street station is dead isnt? I thought that was a wrap?
What did I miss has the dead been resurrected????