This is interesting. Since Wal-Mart is basically the epitome of what I think are some of the major problems with our country (sprawling suburbs where more gas needs to be used even for minor tasks, non-local goods & services, cheap imported shit from China, etc), I wonder if this is sort of the beginning of a major shift in these things?
QuoteNEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Wal-Mart's core shoppers are running out of money much faster than a year ago due to rising gasoline prices, and the retail giant is worried, CEO Mike Duke said Wednesday.
"We're seeing core consumers under a lot of pressure," Duke said at an event in New York. "There's no doubt that rising fuel prices are having an impact."
More: http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/27/news/companies/walmart_ceo_consumers_under_pressure/index.htm
QuoteAddressing that challenge, Duke said the company made mistakes by shrinking product variety and not being more aggressive on prices compared to its competitors.
And this is where the article is about how Wal-mart is going to try to compete even MORE on price. Their idea is that in this economy, people will ONLY care about price.
Wal-mart was never going to be a monopoly on the way people buy things. Businesses that know how to differentiate on service, shopping experience, quality, and wider availability of products within their niche have been doing really well and have expanded and haven't had to compete so much on low price. (see Publix, Best Buy, Lowes, etc)
QuoteElsewhere, Duke said Wal-Mart is exploring a number of e-commerce initiatives to grow the business such as testing an online groceries delivery business in San Jose.
So the final answer for Wal-mart, since you have to drive a lot and use gas to get there and park in their enormous parking lot, is to deliver to you. Maybe. :D
You know, there was life , before Wal-mart. While Sam Walton may have founded it ...I am sure he never envisioned it , as it now is , and would probably not have wanted it to be the demise of mom and pop competitors.
Quote from: danem on April 28, 2011, 03:48:21 PM
QuoteAddressing that challenge, Duke said the company made mistakes by shrinking product variety and not being more aggressive on prices compared to its competitors.
And this is where the article is about how Wal-mart is going to try to compete even MORE on price. Their idea is that in this economy, people will ONLY care about price.
Wal-mart was never going to be a monopoly on the way people buy things. Businesses that know how to differentiate on service, shopping experience, quality, and wider availability of products within their niche have been doing really well and have expanded and haven't had to compete so much on low price. (see Publix, Best Buy, Lowes, etc)
QuoteElsewhere, Duke said Wal-Mart is exploring a number of e-commerce initiatives to grow the business such as testing an online groceries delivery business in San Jose.
So the final answer for Wal-mart, since you have to drive a lot and use gas to get there and park in their enormous parking lot, is to deliver to you. Maybe. :D
True, but I also think there's a crapload of the population out there that will almost always select lower prices before anything else. Sure, there's always gonna be the underprivileged. But a huge chunk of the middle class is also getting squeezed like never before. All this stuff is starting to pile up & come to ahead (gas, jobs, low wages, insurance rates through the roof, etc).
Hopefully everyone won't act like zombies & go further down this route just because its the cheapest. Because this is actually one of the things that helped with the mess we're in.
P.S. I'm not exactly dissing Wal-Mart specifically, just what it sorta represents. I'm not gonna act like I've never went in there & don't make the occasional late night run for something needed then when everything else is closed. But at least I can put 2+2 together & see the bigger picture. I don't think most people even stop to think about it at all.
I've seen multiple articles on how the great recession has actually helped retailers like Walmart. Folks who had traditionally shopped at places like Target started 'buying down' in huge numbers.
For years Walmart's core shopper were low income households - after the economy tanked they saw in an influx of medium income shoppers and the average bill in the checkout line shot up quite a bit.
Higher income shoppers noticed not only that most goods were cheaper than most retailers but the could get way more for under $100.
Winn Dixie claimed this trend was happening in their stores too.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 28, 2011, 04:23:31 PM
I've seen multiple articles on how the great recession has actually helped retailers like Walmart. Folks who had traditionally shopped at places like Target started 'buying down' in huge numbers.
And Wal-mart is here saying that
their sales volume just isn't there towards the end of the month, because consumers are "running out of money" by then. The say it's probably price increases tied to increases in fuel prices.
Quote"Purchases are really dropping off by the end of the month even more than last year," Duke said. "This end-of-month [purchases] cycle is growing to be a concern.
Quote from: danem on April 28, 2011, 04:36:25 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on April 28, 2011, 04:23:31 PM
I've seen multiple articles on how the great recession has actually helped retailers like Walmart. Folks who had traditionally shopped at places like Target started 'buying down' in huge numbers.
And Wal-mart is here saying that their sales volume just isn't there towards the end of the month, because consumers are "running out of money" by then. The say it's probably price increases tied to increases in fuel prices.
Quote"Purchases are really dropping off by the end of the month even more than last year," Duke said. "This end-of-month [purchases] cycle is growing to be a concern.
True. I wasn't arguing against the article that started the topic off... more like saying if Walmart's business is tapering off everyone else is fucked.
So what do you think, is truly a sign recovery not quite here yet?
Quote from: danem on April 28, 2011, 04:43:36 PM
So what do you think, is truly a sign recovery not quite here yet?
I think it's pretty obvious that we're nowhere near recovery... but I wouldn't use Walmart to gauge progress.
What IS pretty obvious to the Wal-Mart folks is that people have less money to spend on their stuff, most people, at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity". So the good times of the 2000s are over and we are faced with the sobering reality that someone needs to pay for all of the mess. A serious cleanup on aisle 5.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity".
I hope you realize that many of those underwater didn't do what you say...for example, me and 2 of my co-workers bought our houses at the top of the market in 2006....none of us have home equity loans...all of us are underwater (and I put 20% down).
Based on the growth of NetFlix and RedBox, people still have money to watch movies, just not through Blockbuster anymore.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
What IS pretty obvious to the Wal-Mart folks is that people have less money to spend on their stuff, most people, at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity". So the good times of the 2000s are over and we are faced with the sobering reality that someone needs to pay for all of the mess. A serious cleanup on aisle 5.
I love how you generalize. Makes you sound good & dumb.
Most people I know who are underwater didn't do any of the sort & the only thing they were guilty of was buying a home at the wrong time.
Not saying there weren't people doing what you described, but I think you need to reach further into your "I'm smart, everyone else is stupid" bag of blame. You know, the one with the shiny "Know-it-all Republican" seal on it. It's much deeper than that, chief.
What scares me about this mess is that I can see someone proposing another government bailout by subsidizing gasoline. "It will stimulate the economy!" "No more gas taxes!" "The average American can't afford to drive to Wal-mart anymore!" "These gas prices are un-American!" "Its communist to have to pay such high gas prices!"
You have to know that kind of talk is coming soon, if it hasn't started already.
Quote from: stephendare on April 28, 2011, 07:12:32 PM
The reality is that if we hadnt sprawled out of control, no one would have to be spending so much damned money on gasoline in the first place.
^+1000!
It's not the sprawl it's having a dependence on a fuel source that is out of our control. This article is about the effect of gas prices, if the H powered car or elect car was available in abundance sprawl means nothing in this discussion. It's been obvious since Carter was pres that we were going to ignore the real problem.
Sprawl is the cause of that dependence, in large part. Drive less = use less fuel.
What do you think happened the past 30 years as we developed this unsustainable growth pattern where a 30 mile daily commute is normal? And everybody moved to suburbia so there are no viable walking or public transit options. What do you think that did to our energy usage? Nothing?
I don't necessarily see electric cars promoting sprawl. People driving them will be much more conscious of their limited range and choose to live closer to work, shop closer to home and play in the neighborhood.
Ironically, higher gas prices might just save local economies. Take cheap transportation costs out of the equation, and mom and pops just gained a more level playing field. Local farms can compete against mega ones, little hardware stores against Lowes.
I think about the gas cost now. I'll gladly pay an extra $2.00 for a bucket of drywall compound at Pasco's Hardware if it saves me from having to drive and pay for the gas for a 15 minute ride to Lowes.
Higher gas prices aren't necessarily a bad thing in the long run. Just sayin'
I used to be secretly pulling for $5/gallon gas. Now I am openly pulling for $6/gallon. I would love nothing more than the return of the mom and pop stores!
Quote from: peestandingup on April 28, 2011, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
What IS pretty obvious to the Wal-Mart folks is that people have less money to spend on their stuff, most people, at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity". So the good times of the 2000s are over and we are faced with the sobering reality that someone needs to pay for all of the mess. A serious cleanup on aisle 5.
I love how you generalize. Makes you sound good & dumb.
Most people I know who are underwater didn't do any of the sort & the only thing they were guilty of was buying a home at the wrong time.
Not saying there weren't people doing what you described, but I think you need to reach further into your "I'm smart, everyone else is stupid" bag of blame. You know, the one with the shiny "Know-it-all Republican" seal on it. It's much deeper than that, chief.
I was about to agree with everything you said. I bought my house in 2005, put down 30%, make all my payments, and have not taken out any loans on it. Not sure how much equity i have lost, but it is at least 50k. You accuse the guy of over generalizing folks. Then at the end, you drag politics into your otherwise intelligent comments and basically accuse Republicans of being know it alls. Now, i think i know how you feel about all republicans. What hippocrits you folks can be. This place would be such a great place to communicate with other members of the communtity if not for the rabid political name calling that goes on.
Quote from: RMHoward on April 29, 2011, 09:17:50 AMThis place would be such a great place to communicate with other members of the communtity if not for the rabid political name calling that goes on.
Quote from: RMHoward on April 29, 2011, 09:17:50 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 28, 2011, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
What IS pretty obvious to the Wal-Mart folks is that people have less money to spend on their stuff, most people, at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity". So the good times of the 2000s are over and we are faced with the sobering reality that someone needs to pay for all of the mess. A serious cleanup on aisle 5.
I love how you generalize. Makes you sound good & dumb.
Most people I know who are underwater didn't do any of the sort & the only thing they were guilty of was buying a home at the wrong time.
Not saying there weren't people doing what you described, but I think you need to reach further into your "I'm smart, everyone else is stupid" bag of blame. You know, the one with the shiny "Know-it-all Republican" seal on it. It's much deeper than that, chief.
I was about to agree with everything you said. I bought my house in 2005, put down 30%, make all my payments, and have not taken out any loans on it. Not sure how much equity i have lost, but it is at least 50k. You accuse the guy of over generalizing folks. Then at the end, you drag politics into your otherwise intelligent comments and basically accuse Republicans of being know it alls. Now, i think i know how you feel about all republicans. What hippocrits you folks can be. This place would be such a great place to communicate with other members of the communtity if not for the rabid political name calling that goes on.
I am not a member of MetroJacksonville committee or being one of the moderators, but the moderators are doing everything as humanely as possible to maintain a proper and civil environment without abusing the freedom of speech.
-Josh
Quote from: RMHoward on April 29, 2011, 09:17:50 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 28, 2011, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
What IS pretty obvious to the Wal-Mart folks is that people have less money to spend on their stuff, most people, at least 47% in Jacksonville are underwater on their mortgage, because they used to use their home as a piggy bank, buying cars and "stuff" until they cashed in all the "equity". So the good times of the 2000s are over and we are faced with the sobering reality that someone needs to pay for all of the mess. A serious cleanup on aisle 5.
I love how you generalize. Makes you sound good & dumb.
Most people I know who are underwater didn't do any of the sort & the only thing they were guilty of was buying a home at the wrong time.
Not saying there weren't people doing what you described, but I think you need to reach further into your "I'm smart, everyone else is stupid" bag of blame. You know, the one with the shiny "Know-it-all Republican" seal on it. It's much deeper than that, chief.
I was about to agree with everything you said. I bought my house in 2005, put down 30%, make all my payments, and have not taken out any loans on it. Not sure how much equity i have lost, but it is at least 50k. You accuse the guy of over generalizing folks. Then at the end, you drag politics into your otherwise intelligent comments and basically accuse Republicans of being know it alls. Now, i think i know how you feel about all republicans. What hippocrits you folks can be. This place would be such a great place to communicate with other members of the communtity if not for the rabid political name calling that goes on.
I was in no way generilizing all Republicans as know-it-alls, just him, because that's what he always comes off as & makes the type of comments you're talking about. To be honest, I consider myself a conservative, because I believe in a lot of those core values (more of a Goldwater conservative, not these newfangled types).
I don't like the political angle being used in every discussion either. Maybe I should have refrained, but I was trying to give him a taste of his own medicine & make him realize how stupid he was sounding. I normally don't drag it into the discussion though.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 29, 2011, 07:07:30 AM
I used to be secretly pulling for $5/gallon gas. Now I am openly pulling for $6/gallon. I would love nothing more than the return of the mom and pop stores!
Couldn't be more short sighted here. Do you think Mom & Pops have the operating capital to survive the slow times and the great recession better than a massive company such as Wal-mart? Do you think M & P's have the profit margins to withstand the cost of goods increases that are tied to price prices at the pump? Do you understand that Wal-Mart has there own fleet of trucks and purchases gas at wholesale to move product throughout the country?
Quote from: Shwaz on April 29, 2011, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on April 29, 2011, 07:07:30 AM
I used to be secretly pulling for $5/gallon gas. Now I am openly pulling for $6/gallon. I would love nothing more than the return of the mom and pop stores!
Couldn't be more short sighted here. Do you think Mom & Pops have the operating capital to survive the slow times and the great recession better than a massive company such as Wal-mart? Do you think M & P's have the profit margins to withstand the cost of goods increases that are tied to price prices at the pump? Do you understand that Wal-Mart has there own fleet of trucks and purchases gas at wholesale to move product throughout the country?
I agree. Gas prices are going to do a lot more than merely make it more expensive to drive to Wal-mart. Prices of many, many things are going to increase, and it will hurt everyone in many ways. "Mom and Pop" and other competing businesses need to focus on differentiating, being stronger in areas where Wal-mart falls flat (and there are several!). THAT is how they are going to do well, not waiting for Wal-mart to fail.
Quote from: danem on April 29, 2011, 11:17:23 AM"Mom and Pop" and other competing businesses need to focus on differentiating, being stronger in areas where Wal-mart falls flat (and there are several!). THAT is how they are going to do well, not waiting for Wal-mart to fail.
Could not agree more.
Well said.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 29, 2011, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on April 29, 2011, 07:07:30 AM
I used to be secretly pulling for $5/gallon gas. Now I am openly pulling for $6/gallon. I would love nothing more than the return of the mom and pop stores!
Couldn't be more short sighted here. Do you think Mom & Pops have the operating capital to survive the slow times and the great recession better than a massive company such as Wal-mart? Do you think M & P's have the profit margins to withstand the cost of goods increases that are tied to price prices at the pump? Do you understand that Wal-Mart has there own fleet of trucks and purchases gas at wholesale to move product throughout the country?
Higher fuel prices only hurt M&P stores... Wal-mart can ride it out... M&P cannot. Ya missed on this one Doug...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 11:38:19 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on April 29, 2011, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on April 29, 2011, 07:07:30 AM
I used to be secretly pulling for $5/gallon gas. Now I am openly pulling for $6/gallon. I would love nothing more than the return of the mom and pop stores!
Couldn't be more short sighted here. Do you think Mom & Pops have the operating capital to survive the slow times and the great recession better than a massive company such as Wal-mart? Do you think M & P's have the profit margins to withstand the cost of goods increases that are tied to price prices at the pump? Do you understand that Wal-Mart has there own fleet of trucks and purchases gas at wholesale to move product throughout the country?
Higher fuel prices only hurt M&P stores... Wal-mart can ride it out... M&P cannot. Ya missed on this one Doug...
No BT - as soon as the marquees are changed to $6 a gallon Wal-Mart will close it's doors. Everyone wil be able to sell their under valued homes and move back to the core.... and all of the new technologies that are currently being held back (for no reason what-so-ever) will launch worldwide... life will be a green utopia... it's gonna be great!
[/quote]
Higher fuel prices only hurt M&P stores... Wal-mart can ride it out... M&P cannot. Ya missed on this one Doug...
[/quote]
No BT - as soon as the marquees are changed to $6 a gallon Wal-Mart will close it's doors. Everyone wil be able to sell their under valued homes and move back to the core.... and all of the new technologies that are currently being held back (for no reason what-so-ever) will launch worldwide... life will be a green utopia... it's gonna be great!
[/quote]
Is there enough room in your cheek to hold all that tongue? ;D
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
When gas hits $6 a gallon, are people more likely to:
(a) Drive to multiple M&P shops to buy one item at each, or
(b) Drive to Wal-Mart where they can do all their weekly shopping in one location?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
The South Park "Wal-mart" episode was clever in this regard. At the end, after they burn down the "Wal-mart", over time the mom and pop store gets really popular, becomes its own big box store, and they burn that down too. :D
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
Actually it epitomizes what's wrong with American business today. WalMart is a parasitic entity that buys largely from China and has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates. Add to that the fact that WalMart wouldn't exist if it hadn't figured out how to undercompensate its workforce to such an extent that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing this company's operations via medicaid/medicare and state welfare and charitable assistance programs, since they provide little or no health coverage, and don't pay their employees a livable wage.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
WalMart has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates.
Where's the data to back this up? Yes, Walmart has put many "mom and pops" out of business (or more appropriately, the mom and pops have gone out of business for not being innovative enough to compete), and yes, they've killed some small downtowns in the process, but in the aggregate, most studies that I've read suggest that Walmart has had long-term positive economic impacts on communities it operates in. If it's fair to say that Walmart has wrecked local economies in many communities, then it is also fair to point out the fact that it has also greatly improved many local economies as well, and improved the quality of life of millions upon millions of shoppers, both low income and higher. Mom and Pops certainly aren't offering $4 perscriptions.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
Actually it epitomizes what's wrong with American business today. WalMart is a parasitic entity that buys largely from China and has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates. Add to that the fact that WalMart wouldn't exist if it hadn't figured out how to undercompensate its workforce to such an extent that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing this company's operations via medicaid/medicare and state welfare and charitable assistance programs, since they provide little or no health coverage, and don't pay their employees a livable wage.
LOL... you will never fit all that on a bumper sticker...
AND... They pay their taxes!
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/1004/gallery.top_5_tax_bills/index.html
QuoteTax bills for 5 corporate giants
The 2009 income tax bills for America's biggest companies ranged from $0 to $15 billion. Here's why.
Wal-Mart Stores: $7.1 billionU.S. federal: $5.3 billion
U.S. state and local: $677 million
International: $1.1 billion
Before taxes, the world's largest retailer banked $22.1 billion in profit. After deductions and factoring in its international operations, the company still paid just under a third of that back in taxes to various governments.
The federal tax rate for corporations is 35%. Wal-Mart's effective income tax rate came in just under that, at 32.4%
It works the same way for individuals. Just as a person can lower his or her tax rate through deductions and credits, so too can major corporations, said Scott Hodge, president of the Tax Foundation.
But remember, income taxes aren't the only payments major companies make to the IRS. "Wal-Mart probably collects and pays more sales taxes than any other company on earth," Hodge said.
By Annalyn Censky, staff reporter
I don't care either way whether Wal-mart succeeds or fails. I have nothing personal against the management, employees or customers. IF higher fuel costs make their business model no longer feasible, I would be extremely upset if the government decides to bail them out somehow. Just like I was extremely disappointed with the feds for bailing out the automakers.
I prefer mom and pop stores - probably because I am a small business owner myself. Nobody knows for sure how those businesses would fare in a higher priced fuel ecomony. Any reasonably intelligent person could make a compelling argument for either their success or failure when compared to someone like Wal-mart.
That said, I have raised my standards - I am now wishing for $7/gallon gas! Take that you Wal-mart lovers! (how is that for name calling?)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
Actually it epitomizes what's wrong with American business today. WalMart is a parasitic entity that buys largely from China and has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates. Add to that the fact that WalMart wouldn't exist if it hadn't figured out how to undercompensate its workforce to such an extent that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing this company's operations via medicaid/medicare and state welfare and charitable assistance programs, since they provide little or no health coverage, and don't pay their employees a livable wage.
Agree Chris... as I stated in a previous posting , Sam Walton probably never ever envisioned a corporation that would put so many Mom and Pops , Grocers , etc out of business. I really do not believe he would have wanted it this way.
I blame FBC.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
They may have started "homegrown", but they're pretty far away from that now. In trying to get goods for as cheap as possible, they basically have to import everything from China & its usually crap quality. That's not helping things & is one of the major reasons why we're in such big trouble as a country right now (we don't produce anything, hardly anything's truly local anymore & we outsource to other countries too much, all for some giant corp to increase their bottom line).
Plus, how exactly does any of what they do help the communities they're in? Yeah, they employ people from around the area, but that's basically it. There's really no other investment in the local community at all. It's safe to say a mom & pop would do more than that just because of how they usually operate.
Speaking of employment, as much as they rake in a year, Wal-Mart really should be a great place to work with livable wages & full benefits, but its not. Just ask my sister. She worked for them back home for almost 15 years & ended up getting laid off. Now all she's got to show for it is a twisted up back from all the heavy lifting they made her do.
Quote from: Timkin on April 29, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
Sam Walton probably never ever envisioned a corporation that would put so many Mom and Pops , Grocers , etc out of business. I really do not believe he would have wanted it this way.
Or, he would look at the fact that his business was able to dramatically increase the quality of life for tens of millions of people by allowing their dollar to stretch much further, free up income for extra luxuries people otherwise couldn't have afforded, provide $4 prescription drugs to families who otherwise couldn't afford medication, and offer stable employment for over one million workers (economics 101: stable employers can find workers for a lower salary than unstable employers due to the benefit of job security). Considering this, Sam Walton might just be proud of what his company has become, rather than boo-hooing because he didn't stop the free market from doing its job and offer more charity to the Mom and Pops. Sucks for the small local grocers, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If a big corporation can offer an entire community groceries for 25% cheaper, you don't sacrifice that for the romantic notion that a local grocer should be the one peddling more expensive goods instead. Let the local grocer find a way to differentiate and market his own product. If he succeeds, fantastic. If he fails, that's how the market works. It's not like Walmart won't one day suffer the same fate when someone comes along with an idea about how to do things even better.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
If he succeeds, fantastic. If he fails, that's how the market works.
Unless you're a Wall Street bankster. In that case, if you succeed, fantastic; if you fail, you get the taxpayer to bail you out.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
WalMart has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates.
Where's the data to back this up? Yes, Walmart has put many "mom and pops" out of business (or more appropriately, the mom and pops have gone out of business for not being innovative enough to compete), and yes, they've killed some small downtowns in the process, but in the aggregate, most studies that I've read suggest that Walmart has had long-term positive economic impacts on communities it operates in. If it's fair to say that Walmart has wrecked local economies in many communities, then it is also fair to point out the fact that it has also greatly improved many local economies as well, and improved the quality of life of millions upon millions of shoppers, both low income and higher. Mom and Pops certainly aren't offering $4 perscriptions.
Have you read anything, and I mean
anything at all, on this topic before spouting off silly anecdotes?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=484903
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/0034653053327568?journalCode=rest
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9134.2009.00235.x/full
http://www.ag-econ.ncsu.edu/VIRTUAL_LIBRARY/ECONOMIST/novdec05.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2009.00195.x/full
That's just a basic introduction to this topic, but I highly suggest you read the above.
And FWIW, I prefer prescriptions at Publix, a Florida homegrown business, many of which are actually *free*...
Quote from: Traveller on April 29, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
When gas hits $6 a gallon, are people more likely to:
(a) Drive to multiple M&P shops to buy one item at each, or
(b) Drive to Wal-Mart where they can do all their weekly shopping in one location?
It isn't just the M&Ps. It is the local farmer who can drop off his stuff at the local M&Ps b/c now it costs so much to ship those gassed veggies across the country to the mega grocery stores.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
Quote from: Timkin on April 29, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
Sam Walton probably never ever envisioned a corporation that would put so many Mom and Pops , Grocers , etc out of business. I really do not believe he would have wanted it this way.
Or, he would look at the fact that his business was able to dramatically increase the quality of life for tens of millions of people by allowing their dollar to stretch much further, free up income for extra luxuries people otherwise couldn't have afforded, provide $4 prescription drugs to families who otherwise couldn't afford medication, and offer stable employment for over one million workers (economics 101: stable employers can find workers for a lower salary than unstable employers due to the benefit of job security). Considering this, Sam Walton might just be proud of what his company has become, rather than boo-hooing because he didn't stop the free market from doing its job and offer more charity to the Mom and Pops. Sucks for the small local grocers, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If a big corporation can offer an entire community groceries for 25% cheaper, you don't sacrifice that for the romantic notion that a local grocer should be the one peddling more expensive goods instead. Let the local grocer find a way to differentiate and market his own product. If he succeeds, fantastic. If he fails, that's how the market works. It's not like Walmart won't one day suffer the same fate when someone comes along with an idea about how to do things even better.
Intentionally underpaying your workers to such an extent that a full 40% of your workforce is on some form of medicaid/medicare and/or literally on welfare is hardly some genius business idea, it is just outright theft from the taxpayers, who are the actual supporters of this business. Without taxpayers subsidizing half their workforce through government assistance programs, WalMart either wouldn't exist, or would have the same price structure as local competitors who either choose not to do business unethically, or else simply lack the lobbying clout to get away with it. And neither is importing cheap-assed Chinese products any genius business idea. WalMart is "revolutionary" in the same sense that any parasite is, for having figured out how to reap the benefit of someone else's burden.
Walmart closing down mom and pop grocers......... ???
In my neighborhoods where I shopped the closed down grocery stores were Albertsons, Piggly Wiggley, Sav-A Lot, and A&P. None of them were mom and pop.
But whoa, Tillman's is still open, Mexico Beach grocer is still open, the Port ST Joe Piggly Wiggly is still open. The butcher up at Hendirx and San Jose would still be open but his wife had a stroke and he retired again to take care of her. I think you can't generalize.
Has WalMart closed the mom and pop drug stores in my neighborhoods? Probably not. Atkins is gone and the drug store where the limo service is now is gone. But I got the feeling that the drug stores in WinnDixie, Publix, CVS and Walgreen did that deed.
Has WalMart closed the Dollar Stores in my neighborhood? No, but it would be OK by me. Now Port St Joe, small town, still has two dollar stores. Same junk just there. They are the main source of entertainment on Friday night. But no substitute for the run to WalMart, and Publix on Sunday from that small town.
WalMart and goods from China.................uh....don't forget the ones from Hati, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. with American company names on the goods. I didn't buy my last gun from WalMart but I did buy the american made ammo from there. No they haven't closed the M&P gun shops either.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 05:20:29 PM
Have you read anything, and I mean anything at all, on this topic before spouting off silly anecdotes?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=484903
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/0034653053327568?journalCode=rest
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9134.2009.00235.x/full
http://www.ag-econ.ncsu.edu/VIRTUAL_LIBRARY/ECONOMIST/novdec05.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2009.00195.x/full
That's just a basic introduction to this topic, but I highly suggest you read the above.
And FWIW, I prefer prescriptions at Publix, a Florida homegrown business, many of which are actually *free*...
No reason to be condescending. I wasn't trying to flame you, but rather simply asking where a) the data was to back up the claim that Walmart destroys many local economies, and b) asking what the ratio of these supposedly destroyed local economies were in proportion to the overall population of communities with a Walmart presence. I appreciate the links, and will definitely give them a read. To answer your question, yes, I have in fact read a lot of the subject. I tend to do that before forming an opinion. Said opinion is based cumulatively off 15+ year daily readings of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal (or Washington Post, I've gone back and forth over the years), and the (I know, I know) USA Today. It's also been shaped by the Economist, New Yorker, numerous business and economics books, and a college education in business. We could rapidly fire 50 hyperlinks back and forth with conflicting conclusions like two kids playing Pokemon, but it's a Friday evening, so I'll just say that I've read numerous studies showing, generally over a 20 year period, a pretty significant boost to local economies, including job growth as well as increase in both mean and median income, in areas with a new Walmart presence relative areas with similar demos and characteristics without a Walmart. Anyone interested can simply Google something to the effect of "Walmarts effect on local economies." I'm sure they'll find half the articles to be pro and the other half to be con.
My main point was simply that Walmart isn't intrinsically evil.
People's overall problems with Walmart, more often than not, tend to be more problems with the system itself.
For better or for worse, a corporation's sole responsibility is to the shareholders. They are going to do whatever it takes, whether that be paying low salaries or exploiting the system on benefits, to increase the bottom line.
If they are exploiting the system, which we all know they are, I have to put most of that blame on those whose job it is to ensure that large corporations like Walmart play by the rules. It's the same with Wall Street. I don't as much blame the selfish crooks as I do those who allow them to get away with it.
If a company can legally push tux burden for their employees medical care onto the taxpayers, that's not a problem with the player, it's a problem with the game.
KenFSU, that was very well stated, and I think most probably agree with you. We need to take a hard look at the rules of the game. And more precisely at how easily those rules can be changed to favor the party in power at the time. We have seen too many examples at how one person, elected by less than 50% of the state, can completely undo years of bipartisan efforts.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 05:20:29 PM
Have you read anything, and I mean anything at all, on this topic before spouting off silly anecdotes?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=484903
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/0034653053327568?journalCode=rest
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9134.2009.00235.x/full
http://www.ag-econ.ncsu.edu/VIRTUAL_LIBRARY/ECONOMIST/novdec05.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-7295.2009.00195.x/full
That's just a basic introduction to this topic, but I highly suggest you read the above.
And FWIW, I prefer prescriptions at Publix, a Florida homegrown business, many of which are actually *free*...
No reason to be condescending. I wasn't trying to flame you, but rather simply asking where a) the data was to back up the claim that Walmart destroys many local economies, and b) asking what the ratio of these supposedly destroyed local economies were in proportion to the overall population of communities with a Walmart presence. I appreciate the links, and will definitely give them a read. To answer your question, yes, I have in fact read a lot of the subject. I tend to do that before forming an opinion. Said opinion is based cumulatively off 15+ year daily readings of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal (or Washington Post, I've gone back and forth over the years), and the (I know, I know) USA Today. It's also been shaped by the Economist, New Yorker, numerous business and economics books, and a college education in business. We could rapidly fire 50 hyperlinks back and forth with conflicting conclusions like two kids playing Pokemon, but it's a Friday evening, so I'll just say that I've read numerous studies showing, generally over a 20 year period, a pretty significant boost to local economies, including job growth as well as increase in both mean and median income, in areas with a new Walmart presence relative areas with similar demos and characteristics without a Walmart. Anyone interested can simply Google something to the effect of "Walmarts effect on local economies." I'm sure they'll find half the articles to be pro and the other half to be con.
My main point was simply that Walmart isn't intrinsically evil.
People's overall problems with Walmart, more often than not, tend to be more problems with the system itself.
For better or for worse, a corporation's sole responsibility is to the shareholders. They are going to do whatever it takes, whether that be paying low salaries or exploiting the system on benefits, to increase the bottom line.
If they are exploiting the system, which we all know they are, I have to put most of that blame on those whose job it is to ensure that large corporations like Walmart play by the rules. It's the same with Wall Street. I don't as much blame the selfish crooks as I do those who allow them to get away with it.
If a company can legally push tux burden for their employees medical care onto the taxpayers, that's not a problem with the player, it's a problem with the game.
1: That's a different tune than you were singing in your post I responded to.
2: Half the articles won't be "pro and the other half con." I was referring to the hard data. Facts like 40% of a corporation's workforce needing taxpayer assistance to survive, and net job and economic losses when WalMart enters a formerly healthy local ecnonomy, together with their defective product return rates astronomically exceeding other retailers as a % of sales volume, it's hard to figure out the "pro" in all that. And reading peer reviewed data is hardly the same thing as reading the NYT, which is why I provided the links above.
3: The rules of the game are set by a deep-pocketed player's lobbying budget. You know this as well as I do. When a bunch of state AGs got together and sued WalMart for its fair contribution to state poverty-assistance programs, WalMart got the legislatures in each to exempt them. So no, you cannot shift blame onto a broken system when WalMart's lobbyists originally broke this aspect of it.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
Actually I hate Target just as much: they are the largest contributor to Michelle Bachman, that nutty congresswoman who puts other beautiful brunette's to shame.
As far as Walmart is concerned, they are the largest welfare queen in the US: almost their entire work force (probably the largest in the US) is being subsidized by the American tax-payer as almost all their employees earn so little, they are pretty much all on food stamps.
Quote from: finehoe on April 29, 2011, 04:47:27 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
If he succeeds, fantastic. If he fails, that's how the market works.
Unless you're a Wall Street bankster. In that case, if you succeed, fantastic; if you fail, you get the taxpayer to bail you out.
Yup, we have that nasty habit of privatizing the profits but socializing the losses.............so much for capitalism in America.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 29, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 29, 2011, 01:19:56 PM
It really blows me away... the animosity towards walmart. This is a genuine homegrown American business success story. Employs thousands of people, sells the folks what they want at a price they can afford. Walmart is a lesson in innovation, marketing, buying and selling... and apparently has become sooooo freeking good at it... it is now the target of hate that some folks appear to actually want it to FAIL! You guys are amazing!
Next thing ya know you will be hoping for Apple to fail... how about Microsoft? Any other American successes you object to?
::) Fire away... ::)
Actually it epitomizes what's wrong with American business today. WalMart is a parasitic entity that buys largely from China and has wrecked the local economies in many communities where it operates. Add to that the fact that WalMart wouldn't exist if it hadn't figured out how to undercompensate its workforce to such an extent that the taxpayers are actually subsidizing this company's operations via medicaid/medicare and state welfare and charitable assistance programs, since they provide little or no health coverage, and don't pay their employees a livable wage.
^ +1000
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
I have to put most of that blame on those whose job it is to ensure that large corporations like Walmart play by the rules. It's the same with Wall Street. I don't as much blame the selfish crooks as I do those who allow them to get away with it.
As long as one of the major parties believes regulation is a bad thing and does everything in its power to gut said regulations, this will continue.
Quote from: finehoe on April 30, 2011, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 29, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
I have to put most of that blame on those whose job it is to ensure that large corporations like Walmart play by the rules. It's the same with Wall Street. I don't as much blame the selfish crooks as I do those who allow them to get away with it.
As long as one of the major parties believes regulation is a bad thing and does everything in its power to gut said regulations, this will continue.
I completely agree.
THAT is the difference between the European model of Capitalism and the American model of Capitalism.
In America greed always wins out, and consumer protections are nil.
The REAL culprit is the Republican mantra that has branded all regulations as red tape, rather than the needed protections they serve in our society.
And the Democratic enablers over the past three decades, who spinelessly let Republicans bulldozer them with their bumper sticker rhetoric are also disappointing.
Do you hate Apple too?? No one is calling for Apple to fail?? ::) :o
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely
QuoteApple's Chinese workers treated 'inhumanely, like machines'Investigation finds evidence of draconian rules and excessive overtime to meet western demand for iPhones and iPads
Gethin Chamberlain guardian.co.uk, Saturday 30 April 2011 21.30 BST
An investigation into the conditions of Chinese workers has revealed the shocking human cost of producing the must-have Apple iPhones and iPads that are now ubiquitous in the west.
The research, carried out by two NGOs, has revealed disturbing allegations of excessive working hours and draconian workplace rules at two major plants in southern China. It has also uncovered an "anti-suicide" pledge that workers at the two plants have been urged to sign, after a series of employee deaths last year.
The investigation gives a detailed picture of life for the 500,000 workers at the Shenzhen and Chengdu factories owned by Foxconn, which produces millions of Apple products each year. The report accuses Foxconn of treating workers "inhumanely, like machines".
Among the allegations made by workers interviewed by the NGOs â€" the Centre for Research on Multinational Corporations and Students & Scholars Against Corporate Misbehaviour (Sacom) â€" are claims that:
■ Excessive overtime is routine, despite a legal limit of 36 hours a month. One payslip, seen by the Observer, indicated that the worker had performed 98 hours of overtime in a month.
■ Workers attempting to meet the huge demand for the first iPad were sometimes pressured to take only one day off in 13.
■ In some factories badly performing workers are required to be publicly humiliated in front of colleagues.
■ Crowded workers' dormitories can sleep up to 24 and are subject to strict rules. One worker told the NGO investigators that he was forced to sign a "confession letter" after illicitly using a hairdryer. In the letter he wrote: "It is my fault. I will never blow my hair inside my room. I have done something wrong. I will never do it again."
■ In the wake of a spate of suicides at Foxconn factories last summer, workers were asked to sign a statement promising not to kill themselves and pledging to "treasure their lives".
Foxconn produced its first iPad at Chengdu last November and expects to produce 100m a year by 2013. Last year Apple sold more than 15m iPads worldwide and has already sold close to five million this year.
When the allegations were put to Foxconn by the Observer, manager Louis Woo confirmed that workers sometimes worked more than the statutory overtime limit to meet demand from western consumers, but claimed that all the extra hours were voluntary. Workers claim that, if they turn down excessive demands for overtime, they will be forced to rely on their basic wage: workers in Chengdu are paid only 1,350 yuan (£125) a month for a basic 48-hour week, equivalent to about 65p an hour.
Asked about the suicides that have led to anti-suicide netting being fitted beneath the windows of workers' dormitories, Woo said: "Suicides were not connected to bad working conditions. There was a copy effect. If one commits suicide, then others will follow."
In a statement, Apple said: "Apple is committed to ensuring the highest standards of social responsibility throughout our supply base. Apple requires suppliers to commit to our comprehensive supplier code of conduct as a condition of their contracts with us. We drive compliance with the code through a rigorous monitoring programme, including factory audits, corrective action plans and verification measures."