interesting article
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/21/harrod.high.speed.rail.trains/index.html?hpt=T2
Great article, thanks!
Nice article tufsu! People seem to forget just what "Rail" did in our early history and what it permitted! As in travel from one side to the other! We need to get back to that option or atleast the possibility! Eco minded people should take heed..........but what do I know other than Mr Scott is not the one!
Do you think this:
QuoteYou see, none of these governors actually wishes to turn away the federal money. Each of these governors seeks to redirect those federal funds to highway projects. They are not opposed to government funding of transportation, they are opposed to funding of rail transportation.
has something to do with these governors being elected by those with strong ties to the automobile industry?
For those of you who think Mr. Scott should read this. He knows but he also knows the cro-magnon he reports to in the Tea Party cant won't get it. Best for the country or not is never in consideration it just feels like socialism.
tufsu1. Thanks for the article. I'm warming up more for the streetcar for Jax. Bring it back. I know the story is high speed rail. But a few years back we were at the Zoo and did the train. It was a loop. We used it to get around. I know easier said then done. but looking forward to how the conversations and ideas will be discussed.
Noone...the connection between high speed rail and other passenger rail is there...bottom line is folks like Governor Scott don't very much like public transportation....in fact, it is taking a full court press from the communities and chambers of Central Florida on the Governor just to potentially save SunRail.
Quote from: Noone on April 24, 2011, 08:17:45 AM
tufsu1. Thanks for the article. I'm warming up more for the streetcar for Jax. Bring it back. I know the story is high speed rail. But a few years back we were at the Zoo and did the train. It was a loop. We used it to get around. I know easier said then done. but looking forward to how the conversations and ideas will be discussed.
I agree. I think this revolution will be won on the local levels first.
Hate to correct your evolution Jeffery but he doesn't report to Cro-magnons (Homo sapiens sapiens) the Cro Magnon Man is the earliest known modern man, Scott reports to Neanderthals. If we'd just pave the railroads we'd get all the support the oil sucking far right could pump up.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: dougskiles on April 24, 2011, 05:42:45 AM
Do you think this:
QuoteYou see, none of these governors actually wishes to turn away the federal money. Each of these governors seeks to redirect those federal funds to highway projects. They are not opposed to government funding of transportation, they are opposed to funding of rail transportation.
has something to do with these governors being elected by those with strong ties to the automobile industry?
Doug:
In Wisconsin it looks more like an inside job. Here's an article from the Trains Magazine website:
Railroad executive faces felony charges for campaign donations
Published: April 11, 2011
wisconsin-southern-Johnny-M
Photo by Johnny Mitchell
MILWAUKEE â€" Prosecutors charged Wisconsin & Southern President William Gardner with two felony counts in connection with campaign finance violations, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel has reported. Gardner issued a statement today taking responsibility for the violations and said he’ll plead guilty.
Gardner stands accused of reimbursing Wisconsin & Southern employees who donated money to certain campaigns, mostly gubernatorial candidate Scott Walker. The Republican won election last fall. Gardner also stands accused of giving W&S corporate money to Walker’s campaign. State law prohibits direct corporate donations.
“At the time the contributions were made, I did not realize I was violating the law,†Gardner said. “I never would have asked my employees, friends, or family to break the law.â€
The charge carries a maximum sentence of six months in jail and a $1,000 fine. However, Milwaukee County Attorney Bruce Landgraf said a plea deal has been reached. “Because he was cooperative and accepted responsibility at the outset, providing much of the evidence against himself, we are not recommending jail time,†he said.
Wisconsin & Southern operates more than 700 miles of track, mostly state-owned, in the southern half of Wisconsin and reaching into the Chicago area.
In one of the comments on this article, it was noted that a proposed passenger train to Madison would have gone over a state owned line he (Gardner) operates freight over.
Here's another comment on the same article:
This incident gives the appearance of an executive donating funds to a politician to buy the politician's support for continued state grants and loans to the executive's company (and--this is speculation--possibly to reward the politician for opposing a passenger rail project that might have been inconvenient for the company.) I find it remarkable that Gardner received merely a slap on the wrist.
Road construction firms have a larger stranglehold on politicians than any railroad.
That is why we build asphalt roads to last 10-13 years instead of concrete roads that last 30.
Why have taxpayers pay for a road just once in its life when you can make them pay twice?
partially true...concrete roads cost much more to build than asphalt....the road building lobby includes representatives for each....in Florida, the decision on concrete vs. asphalt is usually made based on the % of heavy vehicles
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 25, 2011, 08:15:21 AM
partially true...concrete roads cost much more to build than asphalt....the road building lobby includes representatives for each....in Florida, the decision on concrete vs. asphalt is usually made based on the % of heavy vehicles
Not only that but the base counts for a lot of the decision and price, for example Oklahoma or Antioquia (my "state" in Colombia) and large parts of Georgia are red clay, get it wet and the water runs off, get it soaked and it has the support capability of cream of mushroom soup. Cha Cing!
Passenger rail BTW, formed it's first real INDUSTRY lobby in decades just a couple of years ago, still an infant. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 24, 2011, 08:16:07 AM
For those of you who think Mr. Scott should read this. He knows but he also knows the cro-magnon he reports to in the Tea Party cant won't get it. Best for the country or not is never in consideration it just feels like socialism.
Jeffrey, it is actively being branded as socialism.
Sadly, I came to the conclusion recently that the US is all about M&M:
1. Make Believe
2. Money
Democrats seem less suseptible to "make believe" than Republicans..........that whole "socialism" thing is sooooooo laughable. The US is just sooooooo far behind the rest of the world in taking care of its own, it is outrageous,
The fact that we were looking for a better healthcare system in the US, that doesn't leave almost 60 million people without ANY healthcare insurance, and another 50 million with junk insurance, does NOT constitute a move towards socialism.
It constitutes a move towards the civilization of a modern society.
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. :Thomas Jefferson
Taking care of our own isn't just Socialism it is also the American Way. I am not a true Socialist in fact I am a capitalist business owner who employs 25 people and have aspirations of be modestly rich or even the filthy kind.
Maybe one of those tea partiers will come here to Jax, get hit by a car, then, the driver getting away with it. Let see what that tea partier thinks of the "it's every man for himself, if you don't have a car or for some reason, can't drive, sucks to be you" mentality. But only good or poor people get hit by cars around here. Stupid rednecks and other evils are immune to such deaths.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 25, 2011, 11:55:59 AM
Maybe one of those tea partiers will come here to Jax, get hit by a car, then, the driver getting away with it. Let see what that tea partier thinks of the "it's every man for himself, if you don't have a car or for some reason, can't drive, sucks to be you" mentality. But only good or poor people get hit by cars around here. Stupid rednecks and other evils are immune to such deaths.
Sadly I had also noticed that the drunk drivers are more likely to survive their crash, than their victims are.
I found that labeing that kind of society..............the kind that the Tea Partiers want..........a YOYO society for "You're On Your Own" brings it home to even the most rabid extremists. Because despite their bravado of "not needing anything from anyone," they do understand that individually we don't stand a chance against huge corporations.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 25, 2011, 11:48:12 AM
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. :Thomas Jefferson
Taking care of our own isn't just Socialism it is also the American Way. I am not a true Socialist in fact I am a capitalist business owner who employs 25 people and have aspirations of be modestly rich or even the filthy kind.
Taking care of our own indeed used to be the American. Sadly many believe that it can best be done through random acts of private charity.
That kind of fragmented, hit or miss kind of charity obviously is more of a "feel good" service for the giver, because there is no way that for example homebound seniors in decrepid neighborhoods could ever be reached with this "individual type charity."
THAT is why government does have to be in the charity business.............so we can more efficiently locate and service the needy amongst us.
Sorry to get off topic like that, but this basic philosophy of needing government in modern complex society is crucial to public transportation. Those who think that private enterprise can take care of our common good are hugely misinformed.
Now, public/private projects like Florida's HSR project was meant to be, can be a good mix. But we have to be careful not to engage in corporate welfare at taxpayer expense.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 25, 2011, 11:48:12 AM
....I am not a true Socialist in fact I am a capitalist business owner who employs 25 people and have aspirations of be modestly rich or even the filthy kind.
So what you're saying is that you're not evil 'yet'.... ;)
Perhaps, but what I wanted to express was I this is a mixed market economy that where the government helping it's citizens is not exclusive of citizens helping themselves. No reason they cannot coexist.
and now NC's plans for higher speed rail (and any other form of passenger rail) may be in trouble
http://southeast.construction.com/yb/se/article.aspx?story_id=158385918
Looks to me like there is a philosophical dislike for rail of any kind by some
A few of the freshman republicans have been having a tough time lately at their town hall meetings.
Let's see what happens with high speed rail in a year or two.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 27, 2011, 09:58:03 AM
A few of the freshman republicans have been having a tough time lately at their town hall meetings.
Let's see what happens with high speed rail in a year or two.
Too bad we always seem to be dealing with obstructionist Republicans, who are willfully uninformed.
What are the objections... specifically?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 27, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
What are the objections... specifically?
Generally, VERY BROADLY those points are:
IT DOESN'T "MAKE" MONEY.
IT A SOCIALIST STYLE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.
IT IS NINETEENTH CENTURY TECHNOLOGY.
IT IS A METHOD OF "FORCING" PEOPLE INTO DENSE URBAN AREAS.
IT DOESN'T CARRY AS MANY PEOPLE AS BUS RAPID TRANSIT
IT COST MORE THEN BRT
IT ISN'T AS FUEL EFFICIENT AS BUSES
AND specifically, AMTRAK HAS HAD 40 YEARS AND HAS FAILED.
Gee, did I forget any, most of which BTW, are pure BULL SHIT!OCKLAWAHA
QuoteSmart Move is a global awareness campaign initiated jointly by the International Roadway Union and Busworld which advocates the doubling of bus and coach use worldwide, as they are the safest, most environmentally-friendly, affordable, user-friendly and efficient means of collective passenger transport.
Quote
(CNN) -- On Monday, Congressional Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:
The Senate is currently debating the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.
The Senate is currently debating the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.
• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
Don't Miss
* GOP senators draft stimulus alternative
• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."
• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.
• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.
• $500 million for state and local fire stations.
• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.
• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
• $850 million for Amtrak.
• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
QuoteBusway vs. Rail Capacity
Separating Myth from Fact
Peter Samuel
February 1, 2002
Introduction
One of the major misconceptions in U.S. transportation planning is the claim that rail has inherently higher capacity and provides better service than buses. Rail supporters aim to exclude bus modes from the list of alternatives as early as possible in any feasibility analysis. That is because buses almost always look good once they are properly analyzed for several primary reasons:
* The right of wayâ€"typically a lane of asphaltâ€"is invariably cheaper than an assemblage of rails and power supplies and signals;
* Buses themselves are mass-produced by highly competitive manufacturers whereas rail cars are custom-designed by a handful of companies worldwide; and
* Like other motor vehicles, buses are adaptable and can take people from close to the actual beginning of their trip to close to the end of their trip. Moreover, as traffic and demographic patterns change, so too can bus routes. Rail, by contrast, is much more static and is substantially more limited in its ability to offer “door to door†service.
In an era of downsizing and economic decentralization away from core urban hubs, the small scale of the bus and its adaptability are a huge advantage over rail.
Veteran transportation analyst John F. Kain of Harvard summed it up: “With few exceptions studies of the cost-effectiveness of alternative modes have found that some form of express bus system, operating on either an exclusive right of way or a shared facility, would have lower costs and higher performance than either light or heavy rail systems in nearly all, if not all U.S. cities. The tendency of policymakers to ignore the abundant evidence on the superiority of high-performance bus systems is explained by a prior commitment to rail and a willingness to ‘cook the numbers’ until they yield the desired result.†Other scholars and researchers have come to the same conclusion: rubber-tired transit on roadway lanes is, in nearly all cases, more cost-effective, more flexible, and enables a higher level of service to riders than rail.
QuoteBOSTON GLOBE
Blocking high-speed rail
OP-ED
January 29, 2011|Derrick Z. Jackson, Globe Columnist
WHEN PRESIDENT Obama proposed in his State of the Union address that 80 percent of Americans should have access to high-speed rail within 25 years, he drew laughter by saying, “For some trips, it will be faster than flying â€" without the pat-down.’’
It will be much faster if we end the political pat-down for high-speed rail itself.
One promising hallmark of the Obama administration was the $8 billion in stimulus funds and $2.5 billion in subsequent grants to jump start high-speed rail projects. Several key Republicans support high speed rail in principle, even if they disagree with Obama and the Democrats on funding mechanisms and focus.
In a hearing this week, Republican Representative John Mica of Florida, the new chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and Republican Representative Bill Shuster of Pennsylvania, chairman of the subcommittee on railroads, pipelines, and hazardous materials, called for massive public-private partnerships way beyond federally subsidized Amtrak to bring true high-speed rail to the Boston-to-Washington Northeast Corridor. Shuster even used the “I-word’’ currently being flayed by many Republicans: “Failing to invest in the critical Northeast Corridor will ensure continued congestion.’’
But too many other Republicans want to derail everything. The new governors of Ohio and Wisconsin gave back $1.2 billion in stimulus funds for high-speed rail projects, campaigning against them as taxpayer waste. The Republican Study Committee, a caucus of 175 House Republican conservatives, wants to completely de-fund Amtrak and high-speed rail. Caucus chairman Jim Jordan of Ohio asked in 2009, “Why should we subsidize an industry that will directly compete with the automobile industry, which is so critical to our area?’’
Undeterred by such sentiments and the new Republican majority in the House, Massachusetts Senator John Kerry plans to file legislation in the next few weeks that would boost high-speed rail even more. His general plan calls for the development of a national high-speed railway system with spokes radiating up and down both coasts and across to the Midwest, Southeast, and Southwest. The legislation would provide for up to $20 billion in competitive grant funding for projects that deliver train speeds of at least 110 miles per hour and incentives and preferences for projects that can deliver speeds above that.
Kerry said he has started talking with the likes of Republican Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey, who recently rejected a new commuter rail tunnel into Manhattan, to see if concepts such as an infrastructure bank can help.
Faye, they've made it official now so have at em! Just be certain to EXCLUDE the few to whom the wizard bestowed a brain. ;DOCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 27, 2011, 04:17:19 PM
QuoteSmart Move is a global awareness campaign initiated jointly by the International Roadway Union and Busworld which advocates the doubling of bus and coach use worldwide, as they are the safest, most environmentally-friendly, affordable, user-friendly and efficient means of collective passenger transport.
Quote
(CNN) -- On Monday, Congressional Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:
The Senate is currently debating the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.
The Senate is currently debating the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.
• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
Don't Miss
* GOP senators draft stimulus alternative
• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."
• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.
• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.
• $500 million for state and local fire stations.
• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.
• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
• $850 million for Amtrak.
• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
QuoteBusway vs. Rail Capacity
Separating Myth from Fact
Peter Samuel
February 1, 2002
Introduction
One of the major misconceptions in U.S. transportation planning is the claim that rail has inherently higher capacity and provides better service than buses. Rail supporters aim to exclude bus modes from the list of alternatives as early as possible in any feasibility analysis. That is because buses almost always look good once they are properly analyzed for several primary reasons:
* The right of wayâ€"typically a lane of asphaltâ€"is invariably cheaper than an assemblage of rails and power supplies and signals;
* Buses themselves are mass-produced by highly competitive manufacturers whereas rail cars are custom-designed by a handful of companies worldwide; and
* Like other motor vehicles, buses are adaptable and can take people from close to the actual beginning of their trip to close to the end of their trip. Moreover, as traffic and demographic patterns change, so too can bus routes. Rail, by contrast, is much more static and is substantially more limited in its ability to offer “door to door†service.
In an era of downsizing and economic decentralization away from core urban hubs, the small scale of the bus and its adaptability are a huge advantage over rail.
Veteran transportation analyst John F. Kain of Harvard summed it up: “With few exceptions studies of the cost-effectiveness of alternative modes have found that some form of express bus system, operating on either an exclusive right of way or a shared facility, would have lower costs and higher performance than either light or heavy rail systems in nearly all, if not all U.S. cities. The tendency of policymakers to ignore the abundant evidence on the superiority of high-performance bus systems is explained by a prior commitment to rail and a willingness to ‘cook the numbers’ until they yield the desired result.†Other scholars and researchers have come to the same conclusion: rubber-tired transit on roadway lanes is, in nearly all cases, more cost-effective, more flexible, and enables a higher level of service to riders than rail.
QuoteBOSTON GLOBE
Blocking high-speed rail
OP-ED
January 29, 2011|Derrick Z. Jackson, Globe Columnist
WHEN PRESIDENT Obama proposed in his State of the Union address that 80 percent of Americans should have access to high-speed rail within 25 years, he drew laughter by saying, “For some trips, it will be faster than flying â€" without the pat-down.’’
It will be much faster if we end the political pat-down for high-speed rail itself.
One promising hallmark of the Obama administration was the $8 billion in stimulus funds and $2.5 billion in subsequent grants to jump start high-speed rail projects. Several key Republicans support high speed rail in principle, even if they disagree with Obama and the Democrats on funding mechanisms and focus.
In a hearing this week, Republican Representative John Mica of Florida, the new chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and Republican Representative Bill Shuster of Pennsylvania, chairman of the subcommittee on railroads, pipelines, and hazardous materials, called for massive public-private partnerships way beyond federally subsidized Amtrak to bring true high-speed rail to the Boston-to-Washington Northeast Corridor. Shuster even used the “I-word’’ currently being flayed by many Republicans: “Failing to invest in the critical Northeast Corridor will ensure continued congestion.’’
But too many other Republicans want to derail everything. The new governors of Ohio and Wisconsin gave back $1.2 billion in stimulus funds for high-speed rail projects, campaigning against them as taxpayer waste. The Republican Study Committee, a caucus of 175 House Republican conservatives, wants to completely de-fund Amtrak and high-speed rail. Caucus chairman Jim Jordan of Ohio asked in 2009, “Why should we subsidize an industry that will directly compete with the automobile industry, which is so critical to our area?’’
Undeterred by such sentiments and the new Republican majority in the House, Massachusetts Senator John Kerry plans to file legislation in the next few weeks that would boost high-speed rail even more. His general plan calls for the development of a national high-speed railway system with spokes radiating up and down both coasts and across to the Midwest, Southeast, and Southwest. The legislation would provide for up to $20 billion in competitive grant funding for projects that deliver train speeds of at least 110 miles per hour and incentives and preferences for projects that can deliver speeds above that.
Kerry said he has started talking with the likes of Republican Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey, who recently rejected a new commuter rail tunnel into Manhattan, to see if concepts such as an infrastructure bank can help.
Faye, they've made it official now so have at em! Just be certain to EXCLUDE the few to whom the wizard bestowed a brain. ;D
OCKLAWAHA
Thanks Ock, it is indeed finally officially acknowledged as a Republican anti-rail mind warp.....except for a few who will allow themselves to be informed.
Innovation is becoming a scary, particularly "wasteful" thing in the US.
How long till we go back to the horse and carriage? ::)
HIGHWAYS = Government funds infrastructure and private ownership provides the vehicles
AIRLINES = Government funds infrastructure and private ownership provides the vehicles
WATERWAYS = Government funds infrastructure and private ownership provides the vessels
RAILROADS = Private enterprise funds the infrastructure and government provides the passenger equipment
Anyone notice anything funny about that? Had the government funded the railroad infrastructure and private enterprise the railroad equipment we'd be looking at the "Outer Railway" and the 22nd branchline to the beaches right about now.
HIGH SPEED IS COMING... Here is a sample of the track and regular Amtrak trains blowing through Virginia headed for NC and JAX. ...And the freight train is moving.
http://www.youtube.com/v/7PY-COg4Hhg?version=3
OCKLAWAHA