Downtown Jacksonville Ranks Last For Job Growth
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/499524630_zT5nN-L.jpg)
According to a recently released report focusing on downtown Louisville, KY, downtown Jacksonville ranked dead last in job growth amongst similar-sized peer cities during the last decade.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-downtown-jacksonville-ranks-last-for-job-growth
Aww, Louisville. Right around my old stomping ground.
This was about 10 years ago, but while I was living & traveling around those parts, I would have never guessed that downtown cores in Louisville, Knoxville, even Lexington, etc would be so much more vibrant & have so much more going for them than someplace like Jacksonville FL.
My how things can change.
Those stats would be even worse if they extended to 2011. The study went from 2002 to 2009.
If we could solve one problem in downtown in the next 4 years, top on my list to consider would be the number of homeless. Time and time again, I hear from most people, the reason they don't go downtown is because of the homeless population. We must be a mecca for homeless. With all of the programs that we have for feeding them and providing shelter at night, is it doing anything to reduce the population? I would guess those programs have had the exact opposite effect. Time for a little tough love, IMO.
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 22, 2011, 07:03:45 AM
Those stats would be even worse if they extended to 2011. The study went from 2002 to 2009.
If we could solve one problem in downtown in the next 4 years, top on my list to consider would be the number of homeless. Time and time again, I hear from most people, the reason they don't go downtown is because of the homeless population. We must be a mecca for homeless. With all of the programs that we have for feeding them and providing shelter at night, is it doing anything to reduce the population? I would guess those programs have had the exact opposite effect. Time for a little tough love, IMO.
Our homeless have no place to go...that's why they call it homeless..
First off I don't think the homeless population is an issue...all cities have prob the same amount of homeless wondering around/ we just don't have anyone else downtown in the mix. I was really shocked to see the numbers for Charlotte. I really thought they were doing much better and I was also surprised to see how well Birmingham is doing all considering.
Oh and Jacksonville should be ashamed of itself!
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 07:40:47 AM
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Well knowing how stubborn Mike Hogan is it would probably make him say "see all the more reason to leave downtown." These numbers will only get worse under his rein
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 22, 2011, 07:49:46 AM
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 07:40:47 AM
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Well knowing how stubborn Mike Hogan is it would probably make him say "see all the more reason to leave downtown." These numbers will only get worse under his rein
I agree. Perhaps a well-written, incisive letter to the TU can catch the top spot on the TU letters to editor page. The quicker the better.
QuoteOur homeless have no place to go...that's why they call it homeless..
That's not exactly true. While I agree that the homeless may be underserved, I also want to point out that many of these people (not all) have chosen this lifestyle rather than been forced into it. Time and time again I see a guy lining up at the shelter for dinner who looks absolutely capable of doing some job. I good number of these folks don't want to work. They don't want to have to purchase their own meals. They don't want to pay for an apartment. They don't want to contributing members of society. Hell, McDonalds had a hiring spree this week.
In countries like Singapore, in order to get public assistance you MUST work to get it. Even if it is picking up trash -- there's a reason Singapore is one of the cleanest places in the world. And you know what? Singapore's unemployment rate is something crazy like 2%.
The entitlement mentality has to go. Instead of handing out free food and lodging, the downtown shelters should require "guests" to prove they did some meaningful work that day. Perhaps a system where the person seeking food and shelter is given a voucher after completing a specififed amount of work cleaning parks or streets. For a good number of the people who use the shelters we are providing a disservice. We let the get a freee ride that just perpetuats the entitlement mentality. Make a person provide a meaningful service in order to recieve aid and, in my opinion, everybody wins.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 22, 2011, 07:49:46 AM
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 07:40:47 AM
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Well knowing how stubborn Mike Hogan is it would probably make him say "see all the more reason to leave downtown." These numbers will only get worse under his rein
There is a flip side. I'd challenge anyone to find one major american city that hasn't made investing in their downtown/core a priority over the last 20 years, succeeding economically. It's already well proven that sprawl is unsustainable. Even poster child sprawlers like Phoenix, Atlanta and San Jose have and continue to invest heavily in their urban core environments. Anyone who downplays the economic importance a downtown on a city locally will be a trend setter if they pull it off or a fool (given the success numbers the other way) if they don't.
Quote from: Gonzo on April 22, 2011, 08:00:05 AM
QuoteOur homeless have no place to go...that's why they call it homeless..
That's not exactly true. While I agree that the homeless may be underserved, I also want to point out that many of these people (not all) have chosen this lifestyle rather than been forced into it. Time and time again I see a guy lining up at the shelter for dinner who looks absolutely capable of doing some job. I good number of these folks don't want to work. They don't want to have to purchase their own meals. They don't want to pay for an apartment. They don't want to contributing members of society. Hell, McDonalds had a hiring spree this week.
In countries like Singapore, in order to get public assistance you MUST work to get it. Even if it is picking up trash -- there's a reason Singapore is one of the cleanest places in the world. And you know what? Singapore's unemployment rate is something crazy like 2%.
The entitlement mentality has to go. Instead of handing out free food and lodging, the downtown shelters should require "guests" to prove they did some meaningful work that day. Perhaps a system where the person seeking food and shelter is given a voucher after completing a specififed amount of work cleaning parks or streets. For a good number of the people who use the shelters we are providing a disservice. We let the get a freee ride that just perpetuats the entitlement mentality. Make a person provide a meaningful service in order to recieve aid and, in my opinion, everybody wins.
Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2011, 08:44:53 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 22, 2011, 07:49:46 AM
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 07:40:47 AM
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Well knowing how stubborn Mike Hogan is it would probably make him say "see all the more reason to leave downtown." These numbers will only get worse under his rein
There is a flip side. I'd challenge anyone to find one major american city that hasn't made investing in their downtown/core a priority over the last 20 years, succeeding economically. It's already well proven that sprawl is unsustainable. Even poster child sprawlers like Phoenix, Atlanta and San Jose have and continue to invest heavily in their urban core environments. Anyone who downplays the economic importance a downtown on a city locally will be a trend setter if they pull it off or a fool (given the success numbers the other way) if they don't.
Are you keeping up with the state legislature? See the Orlando Sentinel's article today: "Florida House Rolls Back Most Controls on Urban Sprawl."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/legislature/os-urban-sprawl-florida-house-20110421,0,1865936.story
Very interesting.
27k for Jax does seem more appropriate than the 50-60K that DVI use to quote, albeit the geography covered by the different numbers may differ as well.
As far as jcjohnpaint's comment on Charlotte, you have to realize that banking has been hit very, very hard in this downturn (considering they created the downturn), and that as a huge banking center, those jobs are overwhelmingly concentrated in Downtown Charlotte. Given that, and the numbers posted by other cities, a 10 percent loss is not that bad.
I would like to point out that the two cities that actually GAINED jobs, Indianapolis and Louisville are BOTH consolidated. [Omaha basically flat-lined]
How can that be?????
Furthermore, the two cities with the MOST jobs in their Downtown, Inidianapolis and Nashville, are again, BOTH consolidated.
Pretty strong evidence that consolidation does NOT kill prosperity and job growth Downtown in favor of the suburbs. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
I would like to point out that the two cities that actually GAINED jobs, Indianapolis and Louisville are BOTH consolidated. [Omaha basically flat-lined]
How can that be?????
Furthermore, the two cities with the MOST jobs in their Downtown, Inidianapolis and Nashville, are again, BOTH consolidated.
Pretty strong evidence that consolidation does NOT kill prosperity and job growth Downtown in favor of the suburbs. Quite the opposite, in fact.
To a certain point perhaps. But I guarantee our sprawling land mass dwarfs theirs.
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 08:57:10 AM
Are you keeping up with the state legislature? See the Orlando Sentinel's article today: "Florida House Rolls Back Most Controls on Urban Sprawl."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/legislature/os-urban-sprawl-florida-house-20110421,0,1865936.story
I've got a copy of the bills on my desk. Some of the things we do are completely insane.
I see Tufsu's rose-colored claims have once again met with an ignominious demise...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_scWtR-DglHQ/TNnEKH96wlI/AAAAAAAAAMM/Ei6YvfGvSwk/s1600/sinking-ships%255B1%255D.jpg)
Those graphs are, overall, not very encouraging. Also not very surprising.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 22, 2011, 07:03:45 AM
If we could solve one problem in downtown in the next 4 years, top on my list to consider would be the number of homeless. Time and time again, I hear from most people, the reason they don't go downtown is because of the homeless population. We must be a mecca for homeless. With all of the programs that we have for feeding them and providing shelter at night, is it doing anything to reduce the population? I would guess those programs have had the exact opposite effect. Time for a little tough love, IMO.
Put all the homeless shelters and kitchens out in the burbs. That might turn the tide of sprawl. Every subdivision gets a shelter!
Quote from: Garden guy on April 22, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.
I think there is more than nothing to Gonzo's point. There are those going to shelters and soup kitchens that are looking for a job the rest of the day. There are also those who are career homeless and spend the rest of the day doing otherwise (whether good or bad). These are a tremendous under-utilized resource.
First wrap all the homeless/impoverished programs together so you can address the problem holistically. Take someone on unemployment and make the work placement program simple and convenient enough that it does not take up all the person's day looking for a job, then put them to temporary work doing these Civilian Conservation Corps type activities - their pay is the temporary shelter and food that they need until they are successfully placed (throw in family healthcare too, what the hell). Also make unemployment stricter in regards to applying for jobs. If your job before unemployment paid close to the max on unemployment, you will be hard-pressed to find motivation to find a new job - the current setup requiring you to apply to 1 job a week (and you can do this by simply submitting your resume online) is absolutely out of hand. There are plenty of simple, no-brainer fixes to make our social programs leaner, meaner, and less exploited.
http://www.youtube.com/v/zesiBbCBrj0
-Josh
Quote from: peestandingup on April 22, 2011, 09:12:13 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
I would like to point out that the two cities that actually GAINED jobs, Indianapolis and Louisville are BOTH consolidated. [Omaha basically flat-lined]
How can that be?????
Furthermore, the two cities with the MOST jobs in their Downtown, Inidianapolis and Nashville, are again, BOTH consolidated.
Pretty strong evidence that consolidation does NOT kill prosperity and job growth Downtown in favor of the suburbs. Quite the opposite, in fact.
To a certain point perhaps. But I guarantee our sprawling land mass dwarfs theirs.
Considering that neither Indianapolis nor Louisville have a nearby ocean to limit sprawl on one side, I highly doubt that. Same fro Nashville, Charlotte and most other cities listed in the report.
It's all about Leadership, priorities and the lack thereof, Consolidation is irrelevant.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:48:09 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 22, 2011, 09:12:13 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
I would like to point out that the two cities that actually GAINED jobs, Indianapolis and Louisville are BOTH consolidated. [Omaha basically flat-lined]
How can that be?????
Furthermore, the two cities with the MOST jobs in their Downtown, Inidianapolis and Nashville, are again, BOTH consolidated.
Pretty strong evidence that consolidation does NOT kill prosperity and job growth Downtown in favor of the suburbs. Quite the opposite, in fact.
To a certain point perhaps. But I guarantee our sprawling land mass dwarfs theirs.
Considering that neither Indianapolis nor Louisville have a nearby ocean to limit sprawl on one side, I highly doubt that. Same fro Nashville, Charlotte and most other cities listed in the report.
It's all about Leadership, priorities and the lack thereof, Consolidation is irrelevant.
Except where consolidation joins together otherwise disparate parts whose interests are opposed to one another.
Peyton did a wonderful job of leading the Southside, Baymeadows, the corporate parks. They're having a real renaissance. Unsurprising, considering his family owns much of it. But the point is, which do you lead, when what is good for one is bad for the other? Jacksonville was a poor candidate for a city/county consolidation because of its sheer size, lack of connectivity, and disparate parts which have conflicting interests to one another. Under that setup, where component parts have conflicting interests and combined government, you're never really going to have effective leadership. It's a basic structural problem.
The other examples are nowhere near as large, land-wise, as Duval County, and so do not face the same hurdles. Here, it was so large we were in reality combining multiple different cities and a county, not just one city and a county. We were a poor candidate for consolidation from the beginning, the results are unsurprising.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:48:09 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 22, 2011, 09:12:13 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
I would like to point out that the two cities that actually GAINED jobs, Indianapolis and Louisville are BOTH consolidated. [Omaha basically flat-lined]
How can that be?????
Furthermore, the two cities with the MOST jobs in their Downtown, Inidianapolis and Nashville, are again, BOTH consolidated.
Pretty strong evidence that consolidation does NOT kill prosperity and job growth Downtown in favor of the suburbs. Quite the opposite, in fact.
To a certain point perhaps. But I guarantee our sprawling land mass dwarfs theirs.
Considering that neither Indianapolis nor Louisville have a nearby ocean to limit sprawl on one side, I highly doubt that. Same fro Nashville, Charlotte and most other cities listed in the report.
It's all about Leadership, priorities and the lack thereof, Consolidation is irrelevant.
You'd be wrong then:
Indianapolis (their city limits are shaded red, we're the red outline)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Indianapolis-2009/Indianapolis-Marion/570698233_evAAT-M-2.jpg)
Louisville (same thing)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Louisville/Louisville-Jefferson/719924411_v8tb4-M-1.jpg)
I agree with Vic on the issue of consolidation. The physical make up of Jacksonville was no different from that of a Louisville or Nashville when they consolidated. We just have had leadership that has been beholden to the development community over the years moreso than doing what's best for the city as a whole. Consolidation or not, the city would continue to suffer if we put the interest of certain individuals/groups over the good of the whole.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 22, 2011, 09:23:24 AM
I see Tufsu's rose-colored claims have once again met with an ignominious demise...
I'd really like to stop this back-and-forth...but when called out, I must respond
1. I never said downtown wasn't losing jobs...as someone who lives there, it is quite obvious to me
2. This report says there are 27,000 jobs downtown...wonder what the boundaries are (note vicup's post)...nonetheless, that is a far cry from the 6,000-9,000 others have been spouting
3. Sometimes rose-colored glasses aren't so bad...I'll take optimism over negativity just about every time!
Also, when comparing the size of Duval County with other places, keep in mind the amount of undeveloped property and nondevelopable wetlands and marshes that fall within our borders. Taking a look at the urban area statistical data from Census 2000, some of these places sprawl worse than Jax (at least 10 years ago they did).
Examples of a few consolidated cities:
City Name -- Urban Area Population -- Urban Area Size -- Urban Area Density (all 2000 numbers)
New Orleans -- 1,000,283 -- 197.8 sq. miles -- 5,101.6 people/sq. mile
Indianapolis -- 1,218,919 -- 552.9 sq. miles -- 2,204.5 people/sq. mile
Jacksonville -- 882,295 -- 410.5 sq. miles -- 2,149.2 people/sq. mile
Louisville -- 863,582 -- 391.3 sq. miles -- 2,207.0 people/sq. mile
Nashville -- 749,935 -- 430.8 sq. miles -- 1,740.9 people/sq. mile
Here are a few more cities for comparison's sake.
Richmond -- 818,836 -- 436.8 sq. miles -- 1,874.8 people/sq. mile
Charlotte -- 758,927 -- 434.9 sq. miles -- 1,745.0 people/sq. mile
Birmingham -- 663,615 -- 392.1 sq. miles -- 1,692.5 people/sq. mile
Entire list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas
Thank you Peestandingup...I was about to ask if anyone had consolidated metro overlay maps!
You and Chris hit the nail on the head. Jacksonville's consolidated area is so large that the vast majority of it lies outside the urban core. Not so in Nashville, Louisville, and Indianapolis. Of course this means that the majority of voters in Duval have little interest in the urban core as reflected in attitudes of most of our post-consolidation leadership.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2011, 10:20:40 AM
2. This report says there are 27,000 jobs downtown...wonder what the boundaries are (note vicup's post)...nonetheless, that is a far cry from the 6,000-9,000 others have been spouting
It appears they are using the zip code data for the actual historic core, which would exclude the Southbank.
If you look at the Indy overlay and take the part of Indy that is actual overlaping into Clay County and move it into the Duval County outline, the DEVELOPED land area is almost identical in size. The remaining parts of Duval (outside of the Indy overlay) are almost completely rural and very low density.
How are the suburbs of Indy or Nashville or Louisville more 'disparate' from the urban core than Jacksonville's? Were they not designed auto-centric as well?
It's totally bogus. Those communities understand that the core is important, vital even, to the whole. That case hasn't been made often enough or well enough in Jacksonville, because the leadership (mayor, council, Chamber, etc.) of the community has not made doing so a priority or a focus.
Quote from: Garden guy on April 22, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.
The people you are talking about are not the problem that I was referring to. Those people are out looking for work and are not sitting around Hemming Plaza wandering what to do with themselves until the next free meal.
Nashville (526), Louisville(399), and Indianapolis (400) are all at or over 400 square miles.
Are you saying the majority of that, in each community, is included in the urban core?
Duval County, excluding water is 774 sq. miles. Probably 200-250sq. miles of that is rural and undeveloped areas on the North and West sides (and somewhat on the Southside, albeit vanishing by the day).
Why is there this eagerness to scapegoat geography, when something that can actually be CHANGED, leadership, is the real culprit?
Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2011, 10:46:52 AM
If you look at the Indy overlay and take the part of Indy that is actual overlaping into Clay County and move it into the Duval County outline, the DEVELOPED land area is almost identical in size. The remaining parts of Duval (outside of the Indy overlay) are almost completely rural and very low density.
How are the suburbs of Indy or Nashville or Louisville more 'disparate' from the urban core than Jacksonville's? Were they not designed auto-centric as well?
It's totally bogus. Those communities understand that the core is important, vital even, to the whole. That case hasn't been made often enough or well enough in Jacksonville, because the leadership (mayor, council, Chamber, etc.) of the community has not made doing so a priority or a focus.
It's not totally bogus.
The gigantic supply of undeveloped land in Duval County, which then became part of the City of Jacksonville under consolidation, is part of the problem. When these areas are cheaply developed using taxpayer-subsidized roads, utilities, etc., it comes at the expense of a dense city center like the former pre-consolidation City. What is good for developing rural areas is often bad for developed urban areas. We saw this clearly in the 1970s and 1980s with "white flight" to the suburbs, and Jacksonville is presently undergoing (actually pretty much finishing up) the corporate version of white flight to the suburbs.
In order to strike a proper balance between urban and development interests, the two really need to have their own independent leadership that can make decisions that don't have to be some King Solomon's Compromise that kills the whole thing. Under our current government structure, where these disparate and unconnected parts are the same City (even when they're not), this is well nigh impossible. And so you have what we have here.
Why are you hanging onto consolidation at this point? I think most people that look at it as implemented in Duval County would probably recognize we were a poor candidate from the beginning, due to the land area and rural/urban conflicts involved, and I think most people realize this played a significant role in killing downtown. This hasn't been some wonderful panacea, it has created an unsustainable sprawl-based economy and has placed us at the bottom of almost every national ranking of any given metric.
As was already pointed out by two other posters above, the combined City here is anywhere from 70%-100%+ larger than any of the other examples where consolidation has worked, or at least not exploded as badly as it has here. This government model is size-limited, once you include too many disparate areas with conflicting interests, you wind up with these Solomonic compromises that benefit no one. And blame poor leadership all you like, because that's what this government structure is designed to deliver. Again, as I said before, whether Peyton was a poor leader depends on whether you live on the Southside or near Downtown, doesn't it? That should never have to be the case.
For every down, there is an UP! When your so far down it looks like UP, that's when you have a real problem. More? Did anyone else notice that not a single city currently building Light Rail was on the list. Charlotte has a starter line up and running, and they scored 2-3x better then us, as they go toward expansion it will be interesting to watch if a city above the Piedmont fall line with nothing more to warrant it's existence runs circles around us. Memphis has downtown streetcar, but until they get some moxie and vote to extend to the burbs, they're stuck in a Skywayesque hole.
Missing?
*PORTLAND - LIGHT RAIL CENTRAL + STREETCAR + BUS + ROPE CABLEWAY + CORRIDOR RAIL + COMMUTER RAIL
*ALBUQUERQUE - Commuter Rail + Streetcar + bus
*Denver - Light Rail + bus
*Salt Lake City - Light rail + Streetcar (construction) + commuter rail + bus
*Fort Worth - Commuter Rail + bus
*Norfolk - (construction) Light Rail + bus
*A Tale of Two Cities - By Charles Dickens
*Minneapolis-St. Paul - Light Rail + BRT + bus + Commuter Rail + corridor rail
*Phoenix - Light Rail + Bus
*Tuscon - BUS + Massive streetcar construction
*San Diego - bus + commuter rail + light rail + corridor rail
*Cleveland - bus + BRT + light rail + heavy rail
*Orlando - "Jacksonville doesn't do business with carnival people..."
*Tampa - Bus + Streetcar (new expansion)
*Raleigh - Bus + BRT + corridor rail
*Seattle - Bus + BRT + Trolley bus (NOT PCT) + Subway + Streetcar + light rail + commuter rail + corridor rail + ferries
*Science and Health With Key To The Scriptures - By Mary Baker Eddy
*Buffalo - Bus + corridor rail + SNOW + light rail + subway
*New Orleans - Bus + streetcar + streetcar expansion + ferries
*Austin - Bus + commuter rail + BRT planned
*Jacksonville - DEAD END SKYWAY - dead end bus plan - hourly (maybe) bus accomodation
Austin - Route 7 DUVAL/DOVE SPRINGS EVERY 15 MINUTES / 30 MINUTES OFF PEAK
New Orleans - St. Charles Streetcar - EVERY 15 MINUTES
Portland - NE 33 Tri-Met EVERY 20 MINUTES
Fort Worth - Route 7/University EVERY HOUR - but ties with commuter rail to Dallas - EVERY HOUR
JTA - CT2 Townsend / Phoenix - Hourly - connects to other hourly buses - sometimes!
I will say JTA schedules are MUCH BETTER then they were in 1980 when we had nearly twice the routes, but the whole damn city was hourly! Miss a connection and OMG 3-4 hours to and from work. I would second guess ending the old 70 Naval Air route, St. Augustine Road-Powers and a couple of others but plug that old route with say 20 minute headway's to the new community shuttles and we would really have something.
OCKLAWAHA
QuotePut all the homeless shelters and kitchens out in the burbs. That might turn the tide of sprawl. Every subdivision gets a shelter!
Homelessness already exists in the burbs and has yet to change many people's attitudes about homelessness or sprawl. The homeless people in the burbs are just less visible. A lot of them camp in the woods or under overpasses and so on. My church (which is well outside the urban core) has a food pantry which serves homeless and needy families, and business is good unfortunately. I have a friend who was with Clay County Sheriff's office telling about how prevalent they are in Orange Park, too.
That said (and I know you were mostly joking), it makes absolutely no sense to send the majority of homeless services to the burbs. That would mean you have to spread your resources between many, many locations which is inefficient and unrealistic. Plus, it's an issue of accessiblity to services. Downtown more accessible to more parts of the city. You help more people by focusing your services downtown. I think that the new daytime resource center for the homeless will help because right now homeless people don't really have anywhere to be during the daytime except the library. The resource center should help the homeless receive the support and services they need to them get back on their feet.
In the end, I do not think it's fair to pin downtown's decline on homeless people. That's clearly the result of decades of bad public policy.
Consolidation is the smartest thing we have done. Our cost of government is lower and our duplication of effort is reduced. Ock is right in that the local government should "tie" downtown in with the suburbs via rail. I also support a downtown trolley that simplifies pedestrian movement from offices to downtown eateries and entertainment. This is Florida and we have to "cool off" the pedestrian experience with trees, shady walking areas, and fun, breezy transport like trolleys and ferries.
The elephant in the room is the perception that downtown is unsafe. Until that is addressed, no other solution will help downtown. It is that simple. I am aware that is not a popular opinion on this site, but if you polled the people that would turn downtown around with their businesses and their shopping, that is their biggest complaint about DT.
Quote from: NotNow on April 22, 2011, 11:40:33 AM
Consolidation is the smartest thing we have done. Our cost of government is lower and our duplication of effort is reduced. Ock is right in that the local government should "tie" downtown in with the suburbs via rail. I also support a downtown trolley that simplifies pedestrian movement from offices to downtown eateries and entertainment. This is Florida and we have to "cool off" the pedestrian experience with trees, shady walking areas, and fun, breezy transport like trolleys and ferries.
The elephant in the room is the perception that downtown is unsafe. Until that is addressed, no other solution will help downtown. It is that simple. I am aware that is not a popular opinion on this site, but if you polled the people that would turn downtown around with their businesses and their shopping, that is their biggest complaint about DT.
As with anything, cost isn't the primary concern, is it? It's more like cost vs. value that's the issue.
For once, we agree.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on April 22, 2011, 11:37:00 AM
QuotePut all the homeless shelters and kitchens out in the burbs. That might turn the tide of sprawl. Every subdivision gets a shelter!
Homelessness already exists in the burbs and has yet to change many people's attitudes about homelessness or sprawl. The homeless people in the burbs are just less visible. A lot of them camp in the woods or under overpasses and so on. My church (which is well outside the urban core) has a food pantry which serves homeless and needy families, and business is good unfortunately. I have a friend who was with Clay County Sheriff's office telling about how prevalent they are in Orange Park, too.
That said (and I know you were mostly joking), it makes absolutely no sense to send the majority of homeless services to the burbs. That would mean you have to spread your resources between many, many locations which is inefficient and unrealistic. Plus, it's an issue of accessiblity to services. Downtown more accessible to more parts of the city. You help more people by focusing your services downtown. I think that the new daytime resource center for the homeless will help because right now homeless people don't really have anywhere to be during the daytime except the library. The resource center should help the homeless receive the support and services they need to them get back on their feet.
In the end, I do not think it's fair to pin downtown's decline on homeless people. That's clearly the result of decades of bad public policy.
Have to agree with you. I am not a fan of entitlement programs and my wife has done enough volunteer work with the homeless (at Sulzbacher Center, with AmeriCorps, etc) to know that at least half of them are "homless by choice" (the choice being laziness). But the homeless need someplace to hang out other than the one big urban park setting downtown (Hemming Plaza) and the Library.
NotNow mentioned the perception that downtown is unsafe. I agree, and I have heard this perception for years. As a kid in the 1980s, my mom forbade us from riding bikes over the Main St Bridge into downtown for fear that we would be assaulted by, I dunno, angry homeless men. We rode down there anyway and only ever had a problem at the School Board building, and those were ignorant high school kids, not homeless people.
I think the city needs more going on downtown. A combination of some kind of subsidies for small businesses (ease up on getting big companies downtown - they have no stake in our city and will leave as soon as they get bought out or find a better deal), relaxing the sign ordinance, put more beat cops walking the streets downtown, FORCE THOSE BEAT COPS TO BE PLEASANT TO DOWNTOWN VISITORS, quit assessing parking violations, and last but not least, carry out an all-out marketing campaign for downtown promoting its cleanliness, things to do, and safety / police presence. (Get an outside firm to do it because the city will royally screw it up as they do everything else relating to downtown.)
Installing a Laura St roundabout, moving the statue, and restoring the neat old clock are going to do absolutely zero to improve the job market downtown, or make downtown a more desireable place to be.
But I don't think the city has any idea what to do and I KNOW the people that live in Jax, for the most part, could not only not care any less about downtown but do not want even the SUGGESTION of their tax dollars going into improving the area and making it a more desirable place to be.
Pant. Wheeze. Rant over.
I think that no mayor should be reelected if they can't clean up Hemming Plaza. And I don't mean creating laws against the people there, rather it should be a barometer of their ability to create real change. How any elected official can walk into their office and think they're doing a good job for the city is beyond me. Believe me, when I walk by sober people, I ask myself, am I trying hard enough...
Where was I? Oh yeah, local politicians.... self serving bunch of bible thumping hypocrites. But I guess if you go to church for an hour once a week it makes up for being a d-bag the other 167 hours.
Happy Good Friday peeps...and by peeps I mean the little yellow marshmellowy things you'll find in your jesus basket on Sunday. Remember, He died so you could have candy.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 22, 2011, 10:58:10 AM
Quote from: Garden guy on April 22, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.
The people you are talking about are not the problem that I was referring to. Those people are out looking for work and are not sitting around Hemming Plaza wandering what to do with themselves until the next free meal.
You mean the same one's who use library trash cans as toilets? Not sure I would consider that a job search activity.
Quote from: RockStar on April 22, 2011, 12:09:18 PM
I think that no mayor should be reelected if they can't clean up Hemming Plaza. And I don't mean creating laws against the people there, rather it should be a barometer of their ability to create real change. How any elected official can walk into their office and think they're doing a good job for the city is beyond me. Believe me, when I walk by sober people, I ask myself, am I trying hard enough...
My wife and I used to argue over this. She would make comments like "it should be illegal for them to hang around here." But what good is that gonna do? That's putting a band-aid over an amputation. Plus how would you word such a law? "No homeless people allowed?" Right, that's legal.
I think beat cops would help. They wouldn't have to arrest anybody or threaten anyone. Just be around, be pleasant. The "problem" bums will figure out that they can't harass people with a handful of police in the area (and I mean actually circulating - not a couple cops leaned against their cars talking to each other).
Quote from: dougskiles on April 22, 2011, 10:58:10 AM
Quote from: Garden guy on April 22, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.
The people you are talking about are not the problem that I was referring to. Those people are out looking for work and are not sitting around Hemming Plaza wandering what to do with themselves until the next free meal.
Garden Guy, the pathetic attitude belongs to the people who use the system as a way of life. I harbor no ill will towards those who through unfortunate circumstances find themselves in need of short-term assistance. That is what these shelters were originally intended for. But, having volunteered at them, I know that there are MANY people who don't even try to find work. And, let's face it, there are plenty of jobs that some of these people can do -- though, they may not be very glamorous.
Someone else mentioned that the people using these services should be given a task to do in return for the room and board they recieve. I mentioned the same thing. What is wrong with that? If they are not going ot look for a job, they should at least serve the public in some meaningful way. Empty trash cans, clean bus stops, pick up the plethora of cigarette butts that litter our city. These people are an untapped workforce that SHOULD be tapped.
I don't expect something for nothing. If ever I found myself in that position, I would expect to be asked to do something in return for my room and board. Why is it wrong to expect the same from the homeless?
As long as welfare pays more than minimum wage and there are tax credits for having children but no father (ie, not married), then the cycle of poverty will continue.
Nice people, homelessness is a symptom, neither a cause nor a cure for downtown's stagnation. When downtown becomes vibrant again, the homeless will benefit right along with the rest of us. Job's are for everyone and excellence in Mass Transit attracts excellent jobs and lifestyle choices.
OCKLAWAHA
No, it's not experience. It's an observation. If it were an experience, it would've started, In my experience...
I don't get it. I didn't make a judgement in my post. You call them the infernal poors. You can read between the lines, but don't read into them.
I simply observed that our government creates policies that look like a helping hand to a drowning person when in fact it's a boot.
As far as being close friends, I haven't. They never make the tee time; the guy at the gate always stops them.
::)
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on April 22, 2011, 11:37:00 AM
That said (and I know you were mostly joking), it makes absolutely no sense to send the majority of homeless services to the burbs.
Yes, totally joking.
To the talk of consolidation as a cause of sprawl or cure for financial woes and/or inefficiency, I don't know if its a net positive or negative. Sprawl and white flight occurred all over the country regardless of consolidation status: My home state NJ is a majority post-urban sprawl - even the decently-sized cities (Newark, Camden) are suburb-cities of their larger neighbors (NY and Philly, respectively). None of these are within the boundaries (or even states) of the cities to which they are suburbs. I wouldn't say its the consolidation (though it may contribute), but the auto-centric development and need-a-lawn brainwashing that are the main culprits.
That said, I agree totally with the aim of de-consolidation. There needs to be authorities looking out for the interests of the core and the burbs separately. I think you can create a viable framework to do this even with consolidation.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 22, 2011, 02:03:12 PM
Nice people, homelessness is a symptom, neither a cause nor a cure for downtown's stagnation. When downtown becomes vibrant again, the homeless will benefit right along with the rest of us. Job's are for everyone and excellence in Mass Transit attracts excellent jobs and lifestyle choices.
OCKLAWAHA
Well put!
Quote from: stephendare on April 22, 2011, 02:32:49 PM
Quote from: RockStar on April 22, 2011, 02:26:56 PM
I don't get it. I didn't make a judgement in my post. You call them the infernal poors. You can read between the lines, but don't read into them.
I simply observed that our government creates policies that look like a helping hand to a drowning person when in fact it's a boot.
As far as being close friends, I haven't. They never make the tee time; the guy at the gate always stops them.
::)
The reason that world continues to have poverty is because baby making is more profitable than minimum wage and there are better tax benefits. That is what you said.
When did I say anything about the world? That is what you read, not what I said.
The one our government pays lip service to.
I'd continue this, but my champagne is getting warm and my crepes suzette is getting cold.
Well I can tell you that there are cities in America with far far more visible homeless vagrants all over the place and each one is still thriving to an extent Jacksonville simply cannot fathom: San Francisco, New York, Washington D.C., and Atlanta are all major homeless hotspots. Also, I don't feel sorry for or pity for homeless beggers. They suck and are worthless human beings. If you have lived near hoards of them and have had to encounter them everyday or if you have ever worked many times at shelters/centers then you will realize that while some have problems that should be treated by society, many are just lazy SOBs with major attitude.
Also, politicians in the "pockets of 'developers'" is an attitude that is a little worrisome to me. In some cities, politicians are in the pockets of urban developers, too, and politicians in the pockets of anyone is a problem. That being said, developers aren't evil. They are running businesses. Developers are also responsible for every rehabilitation project, every condo high-rise in the core, every downtown office tower, etc etc. Most developers do both urban and suburban projects through various entities, but many do focus just on Green and/or urban infill projects (obviously we don't have those in Jacksonville).
Also, Louisville and Indianapolis are much "tighter" cities than Jacksonville in city services/land area/everything. Nashville sprawls more than Jacksonville, but is a *much* more progressive city than Jacksonville will ever be. I think it's a leadership issue more than anything, but I do think de-consolidation can actually help our city in our particular case.
I am not shocked by this study. Also Charlotte's Uptown is doing fine. Was there in September for the first time and was actually blown away by it. It was like a very clean, very fresh/new downtown Atlanta (and close to the same size). People were everywhere and the only place I can remember that had as many restaurants packed into such a tight space was New York (and Chicago). Charlotte actually had more eats on any given block than any area I have seen in DC!
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 08:57:10 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2011, 08:44:53 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 22, 2011, 07:49:46 AM
Quote from: Jdog on April 22, 2011, 07:40:47 AM
Vaporizing before our eyes. Stunning statistics.
I'd like to see the candidates acknowledge and respond.
Well knowing how stubborn Mike Hogan is it would probably make him say "see all the more reason to leave downtown." These numbers will only get worse under his rein
There is a flip side. I'd challenge anyone to find one major american city that hasn't made investing in their downtown/core a priority over the last 20 years, succeeding economically. It's already well proven that sprawl is unsustainable. Even poster child sprawlers like Phoenix, Atlanta and San Jose have and continue to invest heavily in their urban core environments. Anyone who downplays the economic importance a downtown on a city locally will be a trend setter if they pull it off or a fool (given the success numbers the other way) if they don't.
Are you keeping up with the state legislature? See the Orlando Sentinel's article today: "Florida House Rolls Back Most Controls on Urban Sprawl."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/legislature/os-urban-sprawl-florida-house-20110421,0,1865936.story
It's not a surprise, you know the COJ is loving this bill. They probably think dirty thoughts when reading it!
Why is it that no one is discussing the BUSINESSes that are in these downtowns and the rock anchors that have been a part of them in education as well?
We do have CSX as a major downtown tenant, but they really do not make Jacksonville a transportation town, just because they are here. Yes we have 1504 rusting its guts out at the CC, but what do we do to commemorate our transportation era when we were the busiest station in the world in the 1920s? Nothing really. We have a nice maritime museum, but it REALLY needs a much larger presence, tied to the ship we want downtown and hey, it would be great to have the public dock.
We've lost banks and insurance industries to elsewhere. So what business downtown do we really have, besides CSX, that is Fortune 500 company with some real power for Jax? Everbank could eventually be a player. Fortegra moved to the suburbs, so did Modis/Addecco, is our downtown destined to fail because everytime someone puts ROOTS downtown, someone comes along and buys the company and moves it further out for cheaper land?
At some point Dr. Wallace of FCSJ needs to step up and take over more of the buildings and space for the university. At some point UNF and JU need to have more of a presence downtown as well. If no corporate group can come in and be a major player, we need education to step up and take charge. If education can lead the way, it can show that our downtown is more than just empty buildings. Just a thought.
I don't see how consolidation has anything to do with sprawl/ for the most part. It is the leadership's mindset regarding sprawl regardless of consolidation. Either you care about the core and infill or you don't give a crap. Most of the areas in the City on the outskirts of the metro area within Duval Co. that have not been developed seem to be mostly undevelopable. We either move back in or continue to build into the surrounding counties.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 22, 2011, 03:16:52 PM
It's not a surprise, you know the COJ is loving this bill. They probably think dirty thoughts when reading it!
maybe, but I don't think it is that simple...yes, COJ (and most local governments) will be happy to have less state oversight...and more flexibility on how they plan and permit things...but keep in mind that COJ also spent 2+ years developing one of the most forward-thinking mobility plans in the entire state.
Quote from: simms3 on April 22, 2011, 02:47:00 PM
Well I can tell you that there are cities in America with far far more visible homeless vagrants all over the place and each one is still thriving to an extent Jacksonville simply cannot fathom: San Francisco, New York, Washington D.C., and Atlanta are all major homeless hotspots. Also, I don't feel sorry for or pity for homeless beggers. They suck and are worthless human beings. If you have lived near hoards of them and have had to encounter them everyday or if you have ever worked many times at shelters/centers then you will realize that while some have problems that should be treated by society, many are just lazy SOBs with major attitude.
Agreed. Homeless arent as big of an issure for people not going downtown here as some think. Honestly, there arent that many homeless people roaming around in downtown Jax. yeah, you'll see some, but its really not that bad at all. Certainly not bad enough to keep people away. I've seen just as many in Orange Park.
I think a lot of people here would be amazed at the homeless beggers in other cities. And you're right, it doesn't keep people away in any other thriving downtown. Its just the way it is.
Also, people need to understand that a lot of "homeless" are just hustlers looking for handouts. I remember in DC just straight up having to ignore them because they'll get you everytime you walk down the street in your own damn neighborhood & try every sad story in the book, all BS (or almost all). Usually the same stuff like "trying to get money for the train to go see my kid" type shit. You'd give them more than enough money for the train, come back in 3 hours & their ass would still be hustling. :(
So I got really good at spotting the hustlers & the real homeless. And just FYI, there were many more hustlers than true homeless. Not to say these people weren't probably poor, but still. Def could have gotten jobs just like the rest of us.
Anyways, homeless isn't the problem & you cant blame them for why Jax sucks.
QuoteAnyways, homeless isn't the problem & you cant blame them for why Jax sucks.
Jax does not suck, it just has had 8 years of decentralized growth management. Delaney, at least with the BJP, did re-invest back into downtown with the new Library, Ballpark and Arena. Met Park would have been nice, but we can all agree that over the last 8 years, little if anything has been done to make downtown prosperous, while the suburbs have boomed.
I credit this board for opening my eyes to these as real issues. I don't always agree with the liberals, but I appreciate their point of view. Jax does not suck. If you think it does, it might be time for you to leave.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
QuoteAnyways, homeless isn't the problem & you cant blame them for why Jax sucks.
Jax does not suck, it just has had 8 years of decentralized growth management. Delaney, at least with the BJP, did re-invest back into downtown with the new Library, Ballpark and Arena. Met Park would have been nice, but we can all agree that over the last 8 years, little if anything has been done to make downtown prosperous, while the suburbs have boomed.
I credit this board for opening my eyes to these as real issues. I don't always agree with the liberals, but I appreciate their point of view. Jax does not suck. If you think it does, it might be time for you to leave.
Take it easy. I didn't mean all of Jax sucks, but we're talking about downtown Jax. And yes, it currently sucks & most people here would I'm sure agree with that statement.
Maybe its time for you to lighten up??
QuoteTake it easy. I didn't mean all of Jax sucks, but we're talking about downtown Jax. And yes, it currently sucks & most people here would I'm sure agree with that statement.
Maybe its time for you to lighten up??
Maybe, but I take great offense to people saying my town SUCKS. I think it rocks and perhaps you should clarify your comments that downtown is challenged, rather than SUCKS. There are some great things about downtown, even in its challenged state. I love Dos Gatos and the entertainment areas that have popped up. I love Art Walk, I love the downtown library, I love the river, the list goes on and on and on.
Sucks is a poor word to use.
Art walk is the one time a month when downtown actually has enough people in it to look like a downtown.
Glimpse of what could be.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
QuoteAnyways, homeless isn't the problem & you cant blame them for why Jax sucks.
Jax does not suck, it just has had 8 years of decentralized growth management. Delaney, at least with the BJP, did re-invest back into downtown with the new Library, Ballpark and Arena. Met Park would have been nice, but we can all agree that over the last 8 years, little if anything has been done to make downtown prosperous, while the suburbs have boomed.
I credit this board for opening my eyes to these as real issues. I don't always agree with the liberals, but I appreciate their point of view. Jax does not suck. If you think it does, it might be time for you to leave.
I totally agree. I love it here. It will take the right person and right group, but I have strong hope. People (at lease some) must just keep fighting for what is right.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:31:38 AM
QuoteTake it easy. I didn't mean all of Jax sucks, but we're talking about downtown Jax. And yes, it currently sucks & most people here would I'm sure agree with that statement.
Maybe its time for you to lighten up??
Maybe, but I take great offense to people saying my town SUCKS. I think it rocks and perhaps you should clarify your comments that downtown is challenged, rather than SUCKS. There are some great things about downtown, even in its challenged state. I love Dos Gatos and the entertainment areas that have popped up. I love Art Walk, I love the downtown library, I love the river, the list goes on and on and on.
Sucks is a poor word to use.
So lemme see if I got this. You proudly support Mike Hogan, a man who'd just assume to piss on downtown, transit & anything else that would help it as to look at it. But then you act all offended if someone uses the word "sucks" to describe said area?? OK, got it.
Fake outrage much??
QuoteSo lemme see if I got this. You proudly support Mike Hogan, a man who'd just assume to piss on downtown, transit & anything else that would help it as to look at it. But then you act all offended if someone uses the word "sucks" to describe said area?? OK, got it.
Fake outrage much??
Aren't we focusing on why you think downtown "sucks"? When did Hogan slip into the thread, oh yeah, you inserted it. No matter who wins the election, I like our downtown, and that is my point. Do you have anything positive to say????
Well, I respectfully am gonna have to disagree with you guys. Downtown is def not "awesome", especially compared to similarly sized cities. Hell, compared to many much smaller cities as well. Maybe it has "awesome potential" or has an awesome past. That would certainly be accurate. But today its struggling big time, losing businesses, has a major lack of interest from the general public, no transportation plans anywhere over the horizon, a population that has been absolutely stagnant for many many years, etc. And depending on Mayoral outcomes, will likely go even further down the crapper. Let's just be real about it guys.
P.S. I'm not trying to diss it or offend anyone & I know we're all core advocates here. And I spend most of my time/money in these areas, but we of all people should know the struggles, lack of progress & comparisons.
And just saying it flat out "sucks" may have been a poor choice of wording, so apologies.
downtown has tons of potential and could be a great place....that said, I live downtown and find it to be far from sucking
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
QuoteI don't always agree with the liberals, but I appreciate their point of view.
Easter is always a good time to see the light!
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:31:38 AM
QuoteTake it easy. I didn't mean all of Jax sucks, but we're talking about downtown Jax. And yes, it currently sucks & most people here would I'm sure agree with that statement.
Maybe its time for you to lighten up??
Maybe, but I take great offense to people saying my town SUCKS. I think it rocks and perhaps you should clarify your comments that downtown is challenged, rather than SUCKS. There are some great things about downtown, even in its challenged state. I love Dos Gatos and the entertainment areas that have popped up. I love Art Walk, I love the downtown library, I love the river, the list goes on and on and on.
Sucks is a poor word to use.
Actually agree with you M-train on you point of view. Its interesting that you can never ever seem to appreciate mine.. You actually find fault with most anything I say.
That is what I mean when I say practice what you preach. I don't think Jacksonville sucks. I just think it could and SHOULD be a lot more than it is .
"sucks" is kind of an intellectual shortcut for when you don't like something, but it's not very constructive. I see a lot of folks speak badly of Jacksonville on here and elsewhere, but I think it's great for many reasons.
Conversely, "awesome" is another shortcut for when you do like something, but it is way overused, e.g. "This sausage and egg biscuit is AWESOME". Awesome is something that blows your mind. Knocks your socks off. Gets a standing ovation. Awesome is a goal to strive for in anything we have control over.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 22, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Why is it that no one is discussing the BUSINESSes that are in these downtowns and the rock anchors that have been a part of them in education as well?
We do have CSX as a major downtown tenant, but they really do not make Jacksonville a transportation town, just because they are here. Yes we have 1504 rusting its guts out at the CC, but what do we do to commemorate our transportation era when we were the busiest station in the world in the 1920s? Nothing really. We have a nice maritime museum, but it REALLY needs a much larger presence, tied to the ship we want downtown and hey, it would be great to have the public dock.
We've lost banks and insurance industries to elsewhere. So what business downtown do we really have, besides CSX, that is Fortune 500 company with some real power for Jax? Everbank could eventually be a player. Fortegra moved to the suburbs, so did Modis/Addecco, is our downtown destined to fail because everytime someone puts ROOTS downtown, someone comes along and buys the company and moves it further out for cheaper land?
At some point Dr. Wallace of FCSJ needs to step up and take over more of the buildings and space for the university. At some point UNF and JU need to have more of a presence downtown as well. If no corporate group can come in and be a major player, we need education to step up and take charge. If education can lead the way, it can show that our downtown is more than just empty buildings. Just a thought.
mtraininjax, I like your post.
6 years ago I participated in a JCCI study called River Dance-Putting the River in River City. Ted Papas was the chair. The first meeting was a presentation by Terry Lorrince with Downtown Vision and a recent report by Chan, Krieger and Associates who spent 3 days visiting our Downtown. The OFWB was still an option for our Downtown. Her presentation to everyone starting this study DID NOT include the Old Fuller Warren Bridge. So at the very first meeting of our River Dance study during Q&A I asked Terry did Chan Krieger after spending 3 days focusing soley on our Downtown even notice this beautiful vertical access point that would narrow the river? She said yes and it was their recommendation that it be saved and used. This was disclosed during the very first meeting. And what did we do?
A JCCI study goes on for months. At one point the group was asked to take on best practices: themes and observations of other cities. The city that I picked was Louisville. I had the pleasure of working with David Karem who was the President/Executive Director of the Louisville Waterfront Development Corporation. The man could not have been more accommodating and gracious with his time and resources to contribute to our study and here we are 6 years later Louisville is first and we are last. Will we continue to ignore outside advice as somehow being cancerous and thus continue to be eaten away from inside.
mtraininjax your reference to CSX and their corporate headquarters right on the river has perplexed me over the years as well. At the time of the OFWB issue I tried to meet Mr. Ward. never happened. I also tried to meet with Mr. Greene at Baptist and my city council representative at the time Suzanne Jenkins said that she would come as well. Again the OFWB wasn't even in her district.
Ock, as well as others have opened my eyes to rail that I've never embraced before. A streetcar loop. I'm not going to go off now on rail but suffice to say that a streetcar component could happen now. CSX- Where are you?
And the Public dock. That can happen now too. The Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier needs to be separate. Legislation needs to be introduced now before the district representation is lost. Don't be afraid of this.
David Karem was awesome. He along with the city of Louisville when this assignment was given were getting ready for the Kentucky Derby. He sent me materials, handouts, their own master plans. Here we are 6 years later. Another JCCI study to soon be released Recession, Recovery and Beyond.
I'm concerned and I'm just not feeling it.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 22, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Why is it that no one is discussing the BUSINESSes that are in these downtowns and the rock anchors that have been a part of them in education as well?
We do have CSX as a major downtown tenant, but they really do not make Jacksonville a transportation town, just because they are here. Yes we have 1504 rusting its guts out at the CC, but what do we do to commemorate our transportation era when we were the busiest station in the world in the 1920s? Nothing really. We have a nice maritime museum, but it REALLY needs a much larger presence, tied to the ship we want downtown and hey, it would be great to have the public dock.
We've lost banks and insurance industries to elsewhere. So what business downtown do we really have, besides CSX, that is Fortune 500 company with some real power for Jax? Everbank could eventually be a player. Fortegra moved to the suburbs, so did Modis/Addecco, is our downtown destined to fail because everytime someone puts ROOTS downtown, someone comes along and buys the company and moves it further out for cheaper land?
At some point Dr. Wallace of FCSJ needs to step up and take over more of the buildings and space for the university. At some point UNF and JU need to have more of a presence downtown as well. If no corporate group can come in and be a major player, we need education to step up and take charge. If education can lead the way, it can show that our downtown is more than just empty buildings. Just a thought.
Very well stated. Downtown also has to compete with the Southside. At this point, downtown is the crappy more expensive alternative. I would love to see more presence of the Universities Downtown. I believe this must happen.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 24, 2011, 08:40:15 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 22, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Why is it that no one is discussing the BUSINESSes that are in these downtowns and the rock anchors that have been a part of them in education as well?
We do have CSX as a major downtown tenant, but they really do not make Jacksonville a transportation town, just because they are here. Yes we have 1504 rusting its guts out at the CC, but what do we do to commemorate our transportation era when we were the busiest station in the world in the 1920s? Nothing really. We have a nice maritime museum, but it REALLY needs a much larger presence, tied to the ship we want downtown and hey, it would be great to have the public dock.
We've lost banks and insurance industries to elsewhere. So what business downtown do we really have, besides CSX, that is Fortune 500 company with some real power for Jax? Everbank could eventually be a player. Fortegra moved to the suburbs, so did Modis/Addecco, is our downtown destined to fail because everytime someone puts ROOTS downtown, someone comes along and buys the company and moves it further out for cheaper land?
At some point Dr. Wallace of FCSJ needs to step up and take over more of the buildings and space for the university. At some point UNF and JU need to have more of a presence downtown as well. If no corporate group can come in and be a major player, we need education to step up and take charge. If education can lead the way, it can show that our downtown is more than just empty buildings. Just a thought.
Very well stated. Downtown also has to compete with the Southside. At this point, downtown is the crappy more expensive alternative. I would love to see more presence of the Universities Downtown. I believe this must happen.
Easy now. That sounds a lot like saying it sucks & we can't have that kind of talk on these here boards. Raise your pitchforks, town folk! Git him!!
Seriously, you're right though. Downtown having a major university would help tremendously. At this point, it really doesn't have enough to stand on its own two legs & needs boosted from another entity like that.
Huge mistake not putting UNF downtown.
They ran off a med school and a law school too, if that makes you feel any better!
Unless Jacksonville realizes that its downtown is worth investing in, and believes that the investment will repay, the city will not be competitive with any peer city despite such a beautiful setting and great weather.
Read the following:
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/best-bet-tax-revenue-mixed-use-downtown-development-13144
you know UNF does have a presence downtown/ MOCA. We own it and have classes there. We have all of our events at MOCA. Not much support from the city, but we are down there. I think a lot of us would like to see the MOCA, UNF or other schools expand more into the downtown, but without the support it means nothing. Everything good is somewhere else because the policies/ taxes/ fees/ whatever are more conductive to business. I am very liberal, but this is one time I might say get the hell out of the way because you are f'in it all up, but who? Businesses have to do what they have to do to survive and if downtown policy makes it hard to survive then why would anyone want to stay there or relocate there. Who ever is running the system down there is doing a terrible job and should be removed from their post office or whatever. I would really like to see a thread created that talks (truthfully) about why nothing works downtown and WHO is to blame. What are the policies that are hurting small businesses? I have heard Ron Chamblin mention on here his thoughts which is a great start. Lets put it out there and stop blaming each other.
Quote from: Steve_Lovett on April 24, 2011, 10:02:47 AM
Unless Jacksonville realizes that its downtown is worth investing in, and believes that the investment will repay, the city will not be competitive with any peer city despite such a beautiful setting and great weather.
Read the following:
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/best-bet-tax-revenue-mixed-use-downtown-development-13144
Urban density? Mixed use? Transit!? That's hippie talk!!
wow that sounded pretty right wing, but I am for a good private/ public partnership and we have anything but that downtown.
I love all of that, but the foundation for even starting toward that idea isn't even recognized.
jc John I do not see how being liberal is adverse to getting downtown going. Colleges are a great catalyst to urban areas. I just wish our conservative Mayor and conservative council would have helped to make it happen when FSU's medical school wanted to be in Downtown Jax and we wouldn't step up so it went to Daytona, When Florida Coastal School of Law desperately wanted Downtown and the Mayor and Council incentivised them to be in Baymeadows same with the Art Institute. Our conservative leadership is responsible for the Downtown policies for most of the last 40 years. If you want a change in direction downtown you do not need to put a "but" after I am very liberal.
I think young Doctors, Lawyers and Artists would be perfect for our Urban core.
I guess what I meant to say is that who ever is running the show regardless of party is doing an absolutely terrible job. They are complete failures. Yes our downtown is great with a wonderful river and infrastructure and who ever these people are??...they are raping out wonderful downtown.
Quote from: peestandingup on April 24, 2011, 10:20:49 AM
Urban density? Mixed use? Transit!? That's hippie talk!!
I'm your huckleberry...! OCKLAWAHA
Quoteyou know UNF does have a presence downtown/ MOCA.
You are correct, but I was looking for a MUCH LARGER presence than one location, I am looking for a FBC type of campus.
I agree, but it is a start and not much support. I guess you got to start somewhere, but if this little isn't even supported, how would something bigger even happen.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 23, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
QuoteAnyways, homeless isn't the problem & you cant blame them for why Jax sucks.
Jax does not suck, it just has had 8 years of decentralized growth management. Delaney, at least with the BJP, did re-invest back into downtown with the new Library, Ballpark and Arena. Met Park would have been nice, but we can all agree that over the last 8 years, little if anything has been done to make downtown prosperous, while the suburbs have boomed.
I credit this board for opening my eyes to these as real issues. I don't always agree with the liberals, but I appreciate their point of view. Jax does not suck. If you think it does, it might be time for you to leave.
So you're one of them!
QuoteSo you're one of them!
Yes, the anti-urbanknight!
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 26, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
QuoteSo you're one of them!
Yes, the anti-urbanknight!
Ouch! I was thinking you were the if you don't like, then leave crowd. But don't be too offended, just ball busting., and working on my smart assness. LOL But I saw in a later post, why you may be offended. I don't think that JAX sucks, however it does need some help. And that's why we're all here and joking around makes it fun. I have no ill will for anyone based solely on opinion.
Nor do I .
Quote from: urbaknight on April 26, 2011, 10:31:36 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 26, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
QuoteSo you're one of them!
Yes, the anti-urbanknight!
Ouch! I was thinking you were the if you don't like, then leave crowd. But don't be too offended, just ball busting., and working on my smart assness. LOL But I saw in a later post, why you may be offended. I don't think that JAX sucks, however it does need some help. And that's why we're all here and joking around makes it fun. I have no ill will for anyone based solely on opinion.
From the Northeast? Yeah I am working on this ballbusting problem as well.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 26, 2011, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on April 26, 2011, 10:31:36 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 26, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
QuoteSo you're one of them!
Yes, the anti-urbanknight!
Ouch! I was thinking you were the if you don't like, then leave crowd. But don't be too offended, just ball busting., and working on my smart assness. LOL But I saw in a later post, why you may be offended. I don't think that JAX sucks, however it does need some help. And that's why we're all here and joking around makes it fun. I have no ill will for anyone based solely on opinion.
I am from the northeast! How did you know?
And why do people get so mad just because I want JAX to be like the northeast? The north is way more advanced, JAX would be proud of itsself once it is modernized, they don't want it now, but if they had it a while, they'd realize the bad shape they were in.
And before anyone tells me I should go back just know, it's very liberal and very expensive!
Even our most conservative is more liberal than any liberal here in JAX.
And for the record, I'm against the far right, as well as the far left.
From the Northeast? Yeah I am working on this ballbusting problem as well.
QuoteI don't think that JAX sucks, however it does need some help. And that's why we're all here and joking around makes it fun. I have no ill will for anyone based solely on opinion.
Thanks, we have morons from Orlando saying the same thing though, right or wrong, its on everyone's mind.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 12:13:28 PM
QuoteI don't think that JAX sucks, however it does need some help. And that's why we're all here and joking around makes it fun. I have no ill will for anyone based solely on opinion.
Thanks, we have morons from Orlando saying the same thing though, right or wrong, its on everyone's mind.
The further south in Florida you go, the worse the people seem to be, not all people, but enough to be noticed throughout the country.
You really think I'm a moron? No, I'm a Yankee, and that makes me superior.
QuoteYou really think I'm a moron? No, I'm a Yankee, and that makes me superior.
Did I say that? Are you from Orlando? Home of the evil Mouse...
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 01:43:32 PM
QuoteYou really think I'm a moron? No, I'm a Yankee, and that makes me superior.
Did I say that? Are you from Orlando? Home of the evil Mouse...
Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
QuoteSorry, I misunderstood your post.
No sweat. I am often misunderstood out here in MJ land.
I don't understand :)
I am from the Northeast and the only thing that I feel is 'really' different is we spend a lot more time sitting in traffic
oh and the God thing is really big down here ;D
As far as the homeless go, they will just blend into the street scene once downtown gets some destinations that put more people on the street. Like someone mentioned before, my former home of Charlotte has its "stragglers" towards the north end of Tryon Street, but it doesn't deter a lot of people because there are establishments that people patronize on that end of the street. Plus those folks don't do a lot of panhandling and such anyway. I've heard it called "solution by dilution."
Oh yeah, and it's also no surprise that the top four cities with the most downtown workers in raw numbers as depicted in the second chart are state capitals.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2011, 01:59:33 PM
QuoteSorry, I misunderstood your post.
No sweat. I am often misunderstood out here in MJ land.
Me too. But I do use a lot of sarcasm, so sometimes I unintentionally offend.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 22, 2011, 07:03:45 AM
Those stats would be even worse if they extended to 2011. The study went from 2002 to 2009.
If we could solve one problem in downtown in the next 4 years, top on my list to consider would be the number of homeless. Time and time again, I hear from most people, the reason they don't go downtown is because of the homeless population. We must be a mecca for homeless. With all of the programs that we have for feeding them and providing shelter at night, is it doing anything to reduce the population? I would guess those programs have had the exact opposite effect. Time for a little tough love, IMO.
After spending some time walking around Downtown San Diego today, I'm now truly convinced that the homeless aren't as large of a problem that we make them out to be. In DT San Diego, they are everywhere including the popular Gaslamp District. They set up camps on the sidewalks, surface parking lots, parks and along the waterfront, right in the middle of the tourist traps. However, tourist, workers, businesses and 30,000 DT residents operate just like they aren't even there. The Jerry Morans of DT Jax would immediately drop dead if we had the amount of homeless that San Diego evidently ignores. When I get back to Jax, I'll share some pics.
exactly Lake...I noticed the same thing while there 2 years ago
Funny because I was in Ventura CA a few days ago and I thought the same thing. There were homeless everywhere and they just blended in with everyone else. By far much more than I see in JAX and especially for Ventura's much smaller population.
Always thought the same thing and have mentioned it in the past. I came to Jax briefly a few weekends ago and had lunch with my dad downtown at Chew and frankly I didn't see anyone on the sidewalks...homeless or otherwise. It was a rather depressing site.
I agree that our homeless population is not nearly as bad as it could be; that it is somewhat tolerable, and that it would be much more tolerable if we had a few thousand more workers and residents in the core.
Will the homeless ever leave the core? Can we make them leave? Unfortunately they are free to do what they wish to do and go where they wish to go as long as no law is broken.
When I first arrived downtown, I engaged some of these homeless when I needed some temporary workers. Not surprisingly, most were able to do demolition work; that is, placing materials into dumpsters, and some were able to do work requiring more skills.
My curiosity allowed me to experiment with offering three of the fellows, during the first two years of my renovation, an opportunity to work part time, doing projects requiring a little more skill. I came away from the experiment, realizing that 3 out of 10 homeless are mentally dysfunctional (nuts), 4 out of 10 are only mentally dysfunctional in moderation, but with that added baggage of being either on drugs or heavily into alcohol, and therefore not trustworthy, and that the remaining 3 of the 10 seem to be somewhat together mentally but that they either are heavy drinkers or druggies, and so they too are undependable, and not trustworthy; that is, they are apt to take what they want when opportunity is before them.
Although I was inclined, being an optimist, to take it upon myself to engage these fellows in need; that is, to offer a job and support so that they might climb to a reasonable level of self-sufficiency, my attempts have resulted in failure, as it takes too much time and money, not to mention risk, to achieve success. In the end, the mental habits encountered were simply too formidable, and theft has been the parting act of two of the individuals to whom I’ve extended my assistance and opportunities.
So it seems that most homeless persons are unfortunate in having mental states that are below the requirements for almost any job, and below the requirements for achieving a self-sufficient existence by any means. But I suspect that although most have thought habits preventing positive engagement with the environment, there are some who are ultimately able, but by way of possessing what we might call destructive habits, or criminal ways, they choose not to. Fortunately we have jails and prisons for those individuals.
Most mental states are, in most individuals, set as if in stone. Those who possess mental states of reasonable stability and quality are fortunate indeed.