Will Florida Become A Paradise Lost?
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The Sierra Club releases an open letter to Governor Rick Scott about creating a 21st century transportation system in Florida. Does Rick Scott even care?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-will-florida-become-a-paradise-lost
Of course Rick Scott doesn't care. Sierra Club wasted $0.44 on this one.
No he doesn't, but many of the rest of us do and might get a little more motivated to fight back. Great letter.
Short of a recall, we're stuck with Voldemort for the next few years. What can we do?
Same way Harry Potter defeated Voldemort - let him destroy himself - which it appears is the only thing he is doing well. I've noticed that people with flaming egos like his tend to not know when to stop. Eventually they consume themselves in their selfish desires and greed. It could be fun to watch.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 19, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
Short of a recall, we're stuck with Voldemort for the next few years. What can we do?
Nothing really. Sit back, grab some popcorn & watch the dominoes fall I guess. Scott & his buddy Hogan are gonna do a number on us all. And FL/Jax will deserve it because we elected them.
Seems kind of pointless to talk about any transportation matters at all for the next few years. Cause it ain't happening.
Yeah its a shame though how many years will he drag the state back through his actions.
I guess the same thing we did with Busher- Let him destroy the state and watch the Republican Party say they were never with this guy to begin with.
A RESPONSE TO YOUR OPEN LETTER FROM A RAILROAD PLANNER-SUPPORTER
QuoteCurrently, Florida runs on oil. As long as our state remains dependent upon oil, Floridians will continue to suffer financially as prices increase at the pump and we pay more money to fuel our vehicles.
In the early twentieth century, the railroads of Flagler and Plant helped spur the development of Florida. It is ironic that in the twenty-first century, public transit has not expanded sufficiently to meet transportation needs of that development. Instead of moving forward with fuel-efficient transportation choices, like improved public transit, Florida has taken a step backwards by promoting more oil drilling to fuel more cars on more highways.
This portion of the letter is accurate, and spot on the problems we face and the future we have unfortunately had chosen for us. "We have met the enemy, and they are us!"QuoteGovernor, you were elected on your campaign promise to get Floridians back to work. However, your rejection of Federal monies to fund a highly popular high-speed rail project in the state lost the potential for 24,000 jobs. In addition to that catastrophic loss of jobs and money to Florida residents, the Sunshine State has lost the opportunity to be America’s leader in 21st century transportation alternatives that would have enticed new businesses and residents to locate to Florida.
Instead, your reliance on auto usage and using taxes to build more roads reflects neither innovation nor opportunity for growth. It just proves to the rest of the nation that Florida lacks commitment to attract investment and invest in quality of life for residents and visitors, relying on tired solutions (building more roads and requiring more oil) to solve 21st century transportation problems.
At this point the letter loses all credibility with anyone in the opposition camp, (credibility because its obvious that the writer does not understand what was actually being proposed in Florida, and had bought the sales pitch without question, hook, line, and sinker) with both the railroad community, most of the transportation experts outside of Florida, the Governor and his party. Killing the high speed project Florida has been chasing was in and of itself a great reason to elect Rick Scott.
Florida High Speed Rail supporters apparently never questioned anything in the studies, the promises and the hype, the result has been mass hypnosis, with rooms full of deluded minions charging off a cliff:
Would not have taken a single car off the interstate as it was not designed for Floridians.
It would not have improved the quality of life in Central Florida or anywhere else as it was not designed for Floridians.
It might have effected 2,000-3,000 jobs, but even those would have been short term construction employment and Scott knows it.
We would not have led anything in any way with our HSR project which was designed to fail, rather we would have been the battle cry of the automobile lobby for the next 100 years, saddled with a broken railroad which nobody in Florida would ride.
Our HSR project was to railroads what the Weekly World News is to media, a dangerous joke which could well have had a catastrophic effect for any future HSR project in the nation.
Why would anyone want to relocate along a rail line that is worse then the Jacksonville Skyway? Traveling from nothing to a small city, to an amusement park, to a bunch of amusements parks to an airport would have quickly collapsed into the reality of just another Disney ride. There NEVER WAS a transportation "alternative" offered by Florida HSR.
Quality of life? really? What part of knowing we had a failed railroad, running along an interstate, crippling its travel advantage by serving airports rather then cities, would have improved my quality of life?QuoteFor decades, Florida’s economic growth was measured by the proliferation of residential developments and highways to accommodate them. The result was two problems that continue to plague our state and our way of life: massive urban sprawl and traffic congestion. Will newly retired baby boomers and visitors want to come to Florida if they have to face daily bumper-to-bumper traffic and air pollution? Will new businesses want to establish offices in a state where employees have limited access to reliable public transit?
Reliance on auto usage would only have gotten worse along I-4 because the railroad surrendered all of it's advantages before it ever turned a wheel.
Railroad's have a huge advantage over air travel in congested highly urbanized area's. Running from City Center to City Center puts the train at the door of millions of potential patrons. Airlines suffer from the body searches performed by homeland security, and from locations that are anything but convenient. Adding in the wasted time getting from town to the airport, parking and security, while trains run directly into city centers it's easy to see a railroads advantage on short-medium haul passenger routes. Put that train station in the airport and you just trashed the number one reason for using corridor trains where ever they are found, adding the typical train speeds to the long delays at the airport is a deal killer.
The average trip from the Orlando metro area to OIA is about 25 minutes. Any perceived time savings was shot before the train ever left the station. With only hourly trains, the average customer would have to wait 30 minutes for the "next train," then of course one would have to add in parking. Parking is free down on Sligh Avenue Amtrak station, but it costs $19 dollars a day at OIA, and adds another 10-15 minutes to any trip.
So take the Florida HSR and spend $30 for a one-way ticket to Tampa, add in the parking and you've spent $49 dollars for a trip that Amtrak charges $14 for. Did I say HIGH SPEED? 50 minutes is the projected travel time, toss in 25 to get to the airport, 10 to find parking, 30 (average) wait on the train, and you've just blown nearly $50 dollars on a train ride that will take you 1 hour and 55 minutes for a trip that Amtrak makes in 2 hours flat. That's not only NOT high speed, depending on your direction of travel, you would still be standing around a giant city bus stop, or stuck at the airport, while Amtrak was moving on to Miami.QuoteThe answer is simple. Florida needs to take the lead in providing cleaner and greener transportation choices, with better mass transit and routes that promote walking and bicycling. Such transportation reforms will also create more jobs than simply building new roads.
Let’s get to work, Governor Scott, to create a 21st century transportation system in Florida that will make our state sustainable, clean and green before Florida becomes Paradise Lost.
Couldn't agree with you more, but your use of the HSR as your "train of choice," will relegate this whole conversation to the circular file. Passenger rail per seat mile is far more fiscally conservative then any other mode of travel. Florida needs to continue it's efforts (along a route already upgraded and expanded for passenger trains by the Florida tax payers) to restore the former Sunset train, as a new daytime "Gulf Wind." We need to work with Georgia and Southeast High Speed Rail in establishing routes to Washington, Charlotte, and Atlanta, before 2020. Continued pursuit of corridor service all along the Florida East Coast, arguably the railroad created for the passenger train should be another priority. FDOT and Amtrak have a very worthy plan in place for fast conventional corridor trains between:
Tampa-Miami
Orlando-Miami
Jacksonville-Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa
Jacksonville-Titusville-Miami
Jacksonville-Lakeland-Fort Myers/Naples
Urban rail projects such as Sunrail, JTA and HART are absolutely vital to our future. These are the projects that need Rick Scott's immediate attention, and unfortunately, I believe should have been the focus of your letter.
I will stand with you in designing, planning, promoting, or otherwise assisting in logical corridor development FIRST in Florida. (*NOTE) Only when the corridor trains are running and
proven accepted by the general public should we move to higher speed or high speed rail.
Under no condition should we try and leap from a state that has largely abandoned railroads for 50 years, into a state with "XX million passengers a year," because projected numbers like that are based on ectoplasm and nothing more, a recipe for disaster. To create our own proposal, just send me an email or call.OCKLAWAHA(*NOTE) Only when the corridor trains are running and
proven accepted by the general public should we move to higher speed or high speed rail.
Note that this approach while considered incremental, has NOTHING to do with running passenger trains on freight railroad tracks, which by itself is something that has been done all over the world for the last 200 years. The incrementalism in incremental HSR is found in the market and market acceptance of the trains in each corridor. Running 100 trains a day between Cinderella's Castle and the Starbucks on Water Street does absolutely nothing for rail travel or the state unless they have riders. Ridership is built one passenger at a time and thus all of the Bahn in Berchtesgaden, or TGV in Tilly, won't put a single passenger on those trains. This is why Florida is so far behind states like New York, North Carolina, Illinois, California, Washington, etc. in operating a working passenger railroad network. It must be done, and it must be done right the first time, flooding the market with empty trains will only guarantee the end of HSR in America.
Rick Scott will soon find his agenda to be falling on deaf ears. Large number of people dont like what he has done including lawmakers.
Ock, a very well presented response.
He will not be florida's governor forever. If he does not change very quickly, his tenure will only be four years. We will not become a paradise lost, but we definately will come to a complete halt.
QuoteCurrently, Florida runs on oil. As long as our state remains dependent upon oil, Floridians will continue to suffer financially as prices increase at the pump and we pay more money to fuel our vehicles.
Isn't it ironic how a state that is so dependent on oil is doing whatever it can to make sure it can never drill it's own oil? It wants all the benefits of oil but doesn't want any of the bad parts associated with it. This is a textbook example of NIMBY.
Short answer seems to be "What about Mass Transit"? Does not seem to be any Tallahassee backing and Mr Scott has allready said no to what was planned down Orlando way! On that one I have to agree with him, but what about the rest of the state? We got tracks running north and south and west and none is fully utilized!
Quote from: CS Foltz on April 19, 2011, 12:38:09 PM
Short answer seems to be "What about Mass Transit"? Does not seem to be any Tallahassee backing and Mr Scott has allready said no to what was planned down Orlando way! On that one I have to agree with him, but what about the rest of the state? We got tracks running north and south and west and none is fully utilized!
does that mean you would also agree with Mr. Scott if he kills the SunRail plan "down Orlando way"?
By plan of action,we will weather Rick Scott as if a storm of historic proportions.Modern style.
FTU Abel Harding notes a certain Scott off step pause,the eyewall now not so well defined so to speak.Hurricane Scott facing conditions not favorable to strengthening.
The hard right GOP overstepped it's bounds some time ago, attacking as "extremist" persons and interests that have been in fact core GOP constituency representing legitimate,valuable interests and outlook.
In fact,Scott may actually be learning a thing or two..............
I bet there is some fascinating insight on the recent DOT head resignation...........
if rick scott approve sunrail if sunrail is expanded to tampa should it be a 2 trains with a Transfer station in lakeland or 1 train all way to tampa union station
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If I were asked to create the schedules, I'd look at the travel times from the various communities/counties. For example Volusia and Polk are no doubt chock full of people who leave leaving or arriving a full hour ahead of folks in Orange or Hillsborough. So I'd create a floating local schedule, where we'd survey to discover when the Volusia and Polk people are moving, and during those hours EVERY TRAIN would stop in EVERY STATION in those two counties. As the clock got closer to 8am or 9/10am then the closer in counties would enjoy the full service stops and places like Polk and Volusia would revert back to the major station stops only. Thus every station on the route would have it's hours of special "non-stop" express train service, both in the morning and evening rush.
If Disney/Universal/Sea World/Wet-n-Wild etc. really want door to door service then I'd push for one of two things, a private public partnership with Disney to extend the Monorail over the identical route of the hair brained High Speed Rail, between the theme park, convention center and OIA. The other possibility could also involve a theme park, or it could be done independently and that would be to create a LIGHT RAIL line from the theme parks to Amtrak. Either of these mass transit partnerships would set the stage for Amtrak corridor service and/or HrSR.
My crystal ball? yeah, it's gonna happen, sooner or later this state will wake up and realize we can't pave ourselves out of every economic downturn. Rail alone offers us a low cost freeway that never needs widening. OCKLAWAHA
I know very little about HSR and the pros/cons of the proposed Orlando-Tampa line (excepts what I've read on this forum), but am probably one of the "hypnotized" lemmings waiting in line to jump. I neither live nor vote in Florida, so it doesn't really matter what I think about the line, but my question has more to do with the traditional arguments for and against HSR: Why is it typically framed as a time and money tradeoff exclusively? This type of argument assumes we're all perfectly rational (i.e., we'd always weigh the cost and time involved in each mode and choose the best), which is absolutely not the case. People don't always choose the cheapest or fastest way to commute to work or travel on vacation. The problem with most places in this country is that we rarely have a choice. In London, many people pay 4GBP to take the tube or 1GBP to take the bus somewhere they could get to faster and cheaper by walking (e.g., Marble Arch to Baker Street). I paid 4.5GBP and commuted 1hr and 5min each way (40 min tube, 25 min walk) to work for 2 years, even though I had a car and it would have been cheaper (though pricey, fuel was certainly not 9GBP/day) and faster (40-45mins) to drive. The factors I valued most? Avoiding the worry of getting stuck in traffic, the hassle of dealing w/ other drivers in a rush, the (useable) time I had to myself on the train, and the guilt I avoided when I was too lazy to workout b/c I'd already walked 40-50 min each day. People tend to underweight the "intangibles" associated with non-auto commuting/traveling and overweight the cost/time argument, which isn't really all that surprising, b/c there are not many places you can do it on this side of the Atlantic. Obviously the ideal solution is to make all of the arguments favor rail!