I recently went into the Y and was amazed at what a janky, ugly mess the layout of the building is. I'm surprised it has not been condemned by the fire department. Yet I hear they are planning to build a replacement building on the 'oval' between the current Y and the river. This could be awesome and take advantage of the great views. Has anybody heard anything about when this is going to happen or have any preliminary architectural drawings? This has the potential to be a huge asset on the Northbank.
Before, when there was life in real estate and the Brooklyn projects, there was discussion to move the Y across Riverside Avenue into the 1st floor of one of the new buildings, and sell the land to developers. As you can see, that did not happen.
That mess of a layout is the result of many remodelings and additions to the original building over the years. It must be at least three times as big now as it was when the first building was put there fifty years ago and every square inch is used. The place stays busy and full.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
Before, when there was life in real estate and the Brooklyn projects, there was discussion to move the Y across Riverside Avenue into the 1st floor of one of the new buildings, and sell the land to developers. As you can see, that did not happen.
This is what SHOULD still happen. Better yet, put it in the Annie Lytle building. To devote that much prime riverfront land to a single use, low-rise building is a huge waste, IMO.
The existing building is very inefficient in it's use of space.
My wife and I are in there all the time and are constantly amused by yet another of the city's beautiful waterfront parking lots.
They did a great job with the Riverwalk in that area. I just wish there was something at that end of the Riverwalk besides parking lots and office buildings. I agree that a one use facility situated with its parking lots facing the river is probably not the best use of the area...but it sure beats the vacant lots across the street.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2011, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
Before, when there was life in real estate and the Brooklyn projects, there was discussion to move the Y across Riverside Avenue into the 1st floor of one of the new buildings, and sell the land to developers. As you can see, that did not happen.
This is what SHOULD still happen. Better yet, put it in the Annie Lytle building. To devote that much prime riverfront land to a single use, low-rise building is a huge waste, IMO.
The existing building is very inefficient in it's use of space.
That's a fantastic idea. Horribly cost prohibitive, but a great idea. That would (a) bring hundreds of people daily to an underutilized area (b) give an adaptive reuse to a wonderful building (c) help to connect Brooklyn to 5 points via Riverside park (d) free up riverfront property for development and (e)actually make sense.
My fear is that the cost of such an endeavor would be in the $20 million range. Probably too pricey to be feasible.
"janky"
Good new word, Ubben. Mind if we borrow it? Very descriptive.
Quote from: Dog Walker on April 14, 2011, 11:20:18 AM
"janky"
Good new word, Ubben. Mind if we borrow it? Very descriptive.
It's one of my favorites. Seldom used, all encompassing, and novel. I've used it to describe everything from Wine Glasses to People.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 14, 2011, 09:55:55 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2011, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
Before, when there was life in real estate and the Brooklyn projects, there was discussion to move the Y across Riverside Avenue into the 1st floor of one of the new buildings, and sell the land to developers. As you can see, that did not happen.
This is what SHOULD still happen. Better yet, put it in the Annie Lytle building. To devote that much prime riverfront land to a single use, low-rise building is a huge waste, IMO.
The existing building is very inefficient in it's use of space.
That's a fantastic idea. Horribly cost prohibitive, but a great idea. That would (a) bring hundreds of people daily to an underutilized area (b) give an adaptive reuse to a wonderful building (c) help to connect Brooklyn to 5 points via Riverside park (d) free up riverfront property for development and (e)actually make sense.
My fear is that the cost of such an endeavor would be in the $20 million range. Probably too pricey to be feasible.
Washington DC (Capitol Hill) has exactly what I am describing:
QuoteOriginally built in 1889, the J.R. Giddings school is considered a historically significant building due to its role as the first all-black public school in Washington, DC. Surplussed and sold by the DC government in the late 1990s, Results Gym did a full renovation of the facilities into a 65,000 sq ft. multi-use fitness facility, opening in September 2001. In addition to the most current cardio and weight training equipment the club houses four int'l-sized Squash courts, a full basketball/volleyball court, 38' rock-climbing wall, spa-like locker rooms with dry and steam saunas and hot tubs. Programming was expanded to include babysitting and juniors classes at this location. A healthy food café and parking rounds out the list of amenities available to members and guests.
I've used this gym myself and it was VERY cool. They definitely didn't gut the building at all, quite the opposite. The classroom walls and hallways are still intact. Even the chalkboards are still on the walls, in the 'classrooms', that are now Aerobic and other exercise rooms.
http://www.resultsthegym.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=locations.capitol%5Fhill (http://www.resultsthegym.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=locations.capitol%5Fhill)
BTW, like Annie Lytle, this building is RIGHT NEXT to a freeway.
Given the condition of the Lytle building it would be expensive to do ANYTHING, but $20mm sounds like double what it would cost IMO.
QuoteThis is what SHOULD still happen. Better yet, put it in the Annie Lytle building. To devote that much prime riverfront land to a single use, low-rise building is a huge waste, IMO.
The existing building is very inefficient in it's use of space.
If we are really going out on a limb, why not turn the fire station on Riverside into a mecca of Y with a track and a public boat ramp to boot. I mean, if we're thinking crazy about moving to Annie Lytle, why not save the Fire Station first AND its just a couple of short blocks down the street.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 01:04:06 PM
QuoteThis is what SHOULD still happen. Better yet, put it in the Annie Lytle building. To devote that much prime riverfront land to a single use, low-rise building is a huge waste, IMO.
The existing building is very inefficient in it's use of space.
If we are really going out on a limb, why not turn the fire station on Riverside into a mecca of Y with a track and a public boat ramp to boot. I mean, if we're thinking crazy about moving to Annie Lytle, why not save the Fire Station first AND its just a couple of short blocks down the street.
The square footage of the school is almost exactly what the Y would need, more or less. The school also has much better exposure to the high traffic count on I-95.
QuoteThe school also has much better exposure to the high traffic count on I-95.
How do you figure? The fire station is right at the end of Forest and allows easy access on and off both interstates. Lytle forces you to go off College to Roselle to Park to Forest. Plus, there is no way to build the boat ramp at Lytle.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 01:13:41 PM
QuoteThe school also has much better exposure to the high traffic count on I-95.
How do you figure? The fire station is right at the end of Forest and allows easy access on and off both interstates. Lytle forces you to go off College to Roselle to Park to Forest. Plus, there is no way to build the boat ramp at Lytle.
Unless you mean to move the Fire Station across the street, because Fidelity owns the land, that is a no-go. Putting the Y at Annie Lytle would be fine with me. No matter what reuse the building is put to, It essentially has to be rebuilt (except for the brick and the portico) .. Im trying to follow the thread , but I think the building ( A/L ) can be rehabbed for significantly less than 20 MM.. Per City Development Company in 2007 ( I think thats correct) the cost, (Engineers, Architects, Contractors , everything) APPROACHED 8-9 MM. and that was to make it into a 33 apartment complex. So NO WAY is it 20 MM to be converted to a YMCA. Not only that , being a Gym, there is LITTLE doubt that the memberships there would definitely repay the debt.
as to a boat ramp... Umm.. what does that have to do with the YMCA?
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 14, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
Before, when there was life in real estate and the Brooklyn projects, there was discussion to move the Y across Riverside Avenue into the 1st floor of one of the new buildings, and sell the land to developers. As you can see, that did not happen.
This is what I had always heard. I think it's a great idea but we all know money puts the slow or complete hault to everything. I think it would be pretty cool to see School #4 turned into something useful, it's been sitting collecting dust, bums, fleas and rodents for far too long. Plus it's an awesome building overall.
Agree 904... Annie obviously needs work but layout-wise and SF, you could put a hell of a YMCA there.
As to its accessiblity... From 95 n you simply take the Park St. Exit, cross Park and in 2 blocks, you're there. From anywhere in Riverside ,its VERY accessible.. (Sorry M-train but you simply don't want to see the building saved.) Where it is NOT exactly accessible is coming from 95 S. Unfortunately , the Masses decided the approaches to the new bridge needed to cut the College St. exit off , so in that regard it is not accessible... From every other approach, accessibility is NOT the issue... In terms of renovation ..No Idea what that would cost, but certainly not 20mm... to convert it to a Y.
If Ock's Idea of extending the Skyway to it ,to the upper levels ,making it a Station, mixed with a YMCA on the lower level, I don't see how it could not be a money-making investment on that approach.
I was referring to VISIBILITY more than ACCESIBLITY. Put a big "Y" logo on Lytle, and the whole city will know what and where it is.
I think accesibility would be fine at A.Lytle but the VISIBILITY couldn't be beat. Plus I think having a gym in a building like that, rather than a run of the mill strip center like most for-profit places are, would provide a great way to distinguish itself.
I would think $10mm would probably do the renovation/construction job there.
That seems like a reasonable figure, Vicupstate... and a great way to put Annie back in use ,and back on the map.. there are probably few people who are not familiar with that landmark.
Vic, I love this idea.
If we could sell YMCA, Foundation Holdings, and Tarpon on the idea, I think its an awesome idea.
:D This is good news for School 4! The building is amazing, the architecture, everything! Moving YMCA over there would be the best choice. The school holds a lot of space evidently. Wow, after 5 years of knowing this school and praying for a solution to restore it, this may be our chance.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2011, 04:05:13 PM
I was referring to VISIBILITY more than ACCESIBLITY. Put a big "Y" logo on Lytle, and the whole city will know what and where it is.
I think accesibility would be fine at A.Lytle but the VISIBILITY couldn't be beat. Plus I think having a gym in a building like that, rather than a run of the mill strip center like most for-profit places are, would provide a great way to distinguish itself.
I would think $10mm would probably do the renovation/construction job there.
Wonder who to contact @ YMCA just to toss the idea in there?
QuoteI would think $10mm would probably do the renovation/construction job there.
Including the Asbestos Abatement?
Annie was built before asbestos was commonly used for insulation. The school was surveyed years ago and there is no asbestos present.
44,000 sq. ft.@$175/sq ft.(wag) = $7.7 million. Even at $200 sq/ft you are at less than $9 million.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 15, 2011, 08:46:22 AM
QuoteI would think $10mm would probably do the renovation/construction job there.
Including the Asbestos Abatement?
M-train.... hate to lay this one on you.... but the building PREDATES Asbestos ( it was closed down in the 60s not BUILT in the 60s). Doug Milne told me that 5 years ago. I am certain if an experienced developer came up with an approximate figure, they considered, and probably looked into asbestos, and Voila , there was none . I know you are just chomping at the bit to see the School go,and you may get your way, but it will not be because of the presence of asbestos . LOL
A people mover station right in Annie Lytle would be cool. You'd just have to pay Mr.Milne for the air rights to get it there. And either pay him again for the land around it for parking lots or provide free parking with the Y dues at any park and ride lot next to another skyway station. It's a good thing the Y facilities would all be indoors because to step outside or park on the street or another lot and walk over would constitute trespassing on the surrounding property.
Sad, but true Ralph.. I have to wonder how long Doug is willing to hang on to a property that is not generating him anything (except a bill to mow it once or twice a year).
For that matter, You can't even get a rep from Tarpon on the phone.
This is merely a good idea for Annie Lytle . Since F.H.IV never intended the building to be anything but residential ,for as long as they exist, we may never see anything happen. Who knows .
QuoteI am certain if an experienced developer came up with an approximate figure, they considered, and probably looked into asbestos, and Voila , there was none .
So where is your knight in shining armor with 10 million? Go ask Rummell and Haskell to raise the 10 million for you and I am sure you will find all of the anti-Hogans you want to help with this dream. If all it needs is 10 million, why hasn't it been done yet?
Hey M-train... you gave me a good idea ;) Oh...wait ...you're not "Anti-Hogan" ..:)
We often talk about needing MORE public access to the river - and you guys are proposing something that would result in LESS. I agree that the Y needs to be upgraded, but I like it right where it is. Not everything along the river needs to be a private development.
I expect that the Y's membership would drop pretty significantly if people were told that now instead of watching the beautiful sunrise over the river they get to hear the rumble of traffic just a few feet from the building.
If I had my way, they would build a small marina (with a kayak launch) and an outdoor pool. Indoor pools in Florida are insane. If the Bolles and Episcopal kids can tough it out through the winter, I think the Y members can too.
+1
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 18, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
QuoteI am certain if an experienced developer came up with an approximate figure, they considered, and probably looked into asbestos, and Voila , there was none .
So where is your knight in shining armor with 10 million? Go ask Rummell and Haskell to raise the 10 million for you and I am sure you will find all of the anti-Hogans you want to help with this dream. If all it needs is 10 million, why hasn't it been done yet?
Actually, in a normal market, the sale of the existing site should cover the mast majority of that $10mm since prime Riverfront land is much more valuable than a detriorating school next to a freeway.
It would cost a similiar amount to build a new facility on the current site. YMCAs are non-profits that already raise their capital budgets through philanthrophy.
I know I would be more willing to contribute for a historic preservation project than a run of the mill new building.
Doug, I have been in the DC facility and the traffic noise does not register, and the freeway was just as close. The sounds of treadmills, weight machines, etc. easily mask whatever traffic noise bled into the facility. I never noticed the freeway until I walked out of the building and walk around to the backside, where the freeway was.
BTW, you can't watch the sunset from most vantage points inside the YMCA now. The workout area overlooks Riverside Ave., not the river.
The visibility and uniqueness of this facility would boost membership IMO.
Really folks, why do the imaginative renovations/reuse of buildings have to be always be ELSEWHERE.
I think I follow what you're saying.. Put a Marina in where the Y is now.. But why is it , in your eyes , that YMCA should remain on a Riverfront ,as opposed to, say a Restaurant / Marina on the site. Not many Marinas I have been to , have a YMCA attached to them.. in fact , none that I know of. Will gladly stand corrected If I am wrong. The current YMCA Building needs to be replaced either way...so why not sell the entire tract to someone to create your Marina and an Eating destination , and move the Y a little over +/- mile to Annie Lytle.. its a win-win.. a destination / Marina created in the place of the Y , a historic building saved by a wonderful reuse for it .
No problem at all with the boat ramp.. But why not put the YMCA in a well known location very close by.... what would be the difference in travel time ...4 minutes tops? besides if you're swimming or excercising, I doubt you are paying attention to boat traffic on the river, or loading or unloading of boats at a ramp. Not sure that I understand the correlation of the two.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 18, 2011, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 18, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
QuoteI am certain if an experienced developer came up with an approximate figure, they considered, and probably looked into asbestos, and Voila , there was none .
So where is your knight in shining armor with 10 million? Go ask Rummell and Haskell to raise the 10 million for you and I am sure you will find all of the anti-Hogans you want to help with this dream. If all it needs is 10 million, why hasn't it been done yet?
Actually, in a normal market, the sale of the existing site should cover the mast majority of that $10mm since prime Riverfront land is much more valuable than a detriorating school next to a freeway.
It would cost a similiar amount to build a new facility on the current site. YMCAs are non-profits that already raise their capital budgets through philanthrophy.
I know I would be more willing to contribute for a historic preservation project than a run of the mill new building.
Doug, I have been in the DC facility and the traffic noise does not register, and the freeway was just as close. The sounds of treadmills, weight machines, etc. easily mask whatever traffic noise bled into the facility. I never noticed the freeway until I walked out of the building and walk around to the backside, where the freeway was.
BTW, you can't watch the sunset from most vantage points inside the YMCA now. The workout area overlooks Riverside Ave., not the river.
The visibility and uniqueness of this facility would boost membership IMO.
Really folks, why do the imaginative renovations/reuse of buildings have to be always be ELSEWHERE.
Vicupstate, have you been in the Annie Lytle Building?? with Insulated windows and the A/C running , unless you are looking , you would not even realize the traffic is out there. :)
^^ Not hard to believe, the walls are like what 18" thick, or is it 24"?
21" in most areas, thicker than that in others. Built to last (well except the wooden elements and everything the vandals destroyed )
If Ock's idea for it as a Skyway extension came to pass, that would also help to pay the tab for rehabbing / purchase of the building.
Whether Mr. Milne would allow all the adjacent land to go, without forever having his hand in the pie, is hard to tell. Looks like after 30 plus years , he would be glad to sell. Tarpon probably would sell to get out from under it as well.
I hate to break it to you, but no YMCA would be a YMCA without its swimming pool. How are you going to build a swimming pool at the School #4?
-Josh
There is adequate land area around the school to accomplish that. There also would be the Auditorium space which would easily hold a large swimming pool. The Auditorium ...well in the worst shape of the whole building of course would lose whats left of the Grand Stage. and since other than the four walls would need to be replaced, I think the Auditorium space would easily hold the pool.
Why wouldn't the Y just rebuild or reuse what it has? It already owns its site and nobody is willing to pay top dollar for the Y site in this market. A better use for Annie Lytle and the neighborhood is something that is not already located there.
Actually I couldn't possibly think of a better use for the school than the Y, it would work well. But cost not cost effective.
While everyone was falling over themselves to rescue Annie Lytle, the Daily Record reported this information:
QuoteThe YMCA of Greater Pittsburgh announced Monday that its chief executive officer, Eric Mann, has accepted the position of CEO of the YMCA of Florida’s First Coast in Jacksonville and will remain with the Greater Pittsburgh Y through June 30. Mann said he is making the move to be closer to his and his wife’s families.
So now you know who to call to rebuild Annie Lytle with a HUGE Y on the front of it.
Thanks, M-train. you're awesome
Interesting article. Notice how easy it is to name drop Mr. Khan these days:
Mayor Brown doesn't want Yates YMCA to build on the riverQuoteIf Shad Khan wants to build a mixed-use development there...which would you rather have? That or the Y? Clap your hands if you want the $100 million development!"
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/03/mayor-brown-doesnt-want-yates-y-to.html
I'm afraid I already know the answer to this question, but:
Doesn't anyone else like the YMCA building? I'm not talking about the inside of it (I've never been into it and can't offer an opinion), but I was always quite fond of the architecture and was opposed to it being demolished.
Quote from: Adam W on March 29, 2012, 02:02:29 PM
I'm afraid I already know the answer to this question, but:
Doesn't anyone else like the YMCA building? I'm not talking about the inside of it (I've never been into it and can't offer an opinion), but I was always quite fond of the architecture and was opposed to it being demolished.
Never been inside either--hear it's terribly dated--but the exterior does not offend me.
It's a maze inside since it has been expanded and remodeled several times.
The inside is awful. The outside is simply a concrete box. Not sure what there is to like.
It would be a tremendous waste of valuable property to build a 1-2 story YMCA on the river. If they sold the entire parcel they could probably build a Tah Majal YMCA across Riverside Ave, or as part of a big development on the Yates site.
Bravo to Mayor Brown for making this call. The exterior is nothing to write home about and the interior is worse.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 29, 2012, 03:04:07 PM
It would be a tremendous waste of valuable property to build a 1-2 story YMCA on the river. If they sold the entire parcel they could probably build a Tah Majal YMCA across Riverside Ave, or as part of a big development on the Yates site.
Bravo to Mayor Brown for making this call. The exterior is nothing to write home about and the interior is worse.
Its embarrassing that he throws Khan's name out there like that. The Y had been trying to sell that parcel and move inland but they could not find a buyer.