Elements of Urbanism: Atlanta
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1242451051_6riE2-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville takes a trip to the downtown of the New South's largest metropolis: Atlanta.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-elements-of-urbanism-atlanta
so many great memories! I used to love going to DT Atlanta when I lived there. They have some pretty neat old buildings, especially around the 5 Points MARTA station.
Was just in Atlanta two weeks ago. It was quite an eye opener. Such a diverse city. The new buildings look fresh, not this plain jane crap we have all over. Great food, culture and nightlife everywhere you go.
Comparing to Jacksonville to Atlanta is not fair, by any means. The disparities are endless. Atlanta has over 40 colleges in the metro area, which is 40+ counties large. Atlanta has had these a college presence for over 100 years, and boasts the world's largest airport, numerous super bowls and sporting events. There is probably 1,000x the money there than in Jacksonville, but there is 1 drawback to Atlanta that Jacksonville does have: Water.
Atlanta would pay dearly for the water and water access of Jacksonville, both the river and the ocean. Full flights between both cities show that Jacksonville is a destination for folks of Atlanta. We'll never be Atlanta in Jacksonville, and that is fine with me.
I know it is the sprawl king but I love Atlanta. My brother in law lives in Smyrna, so we make it up there whenever we can. So much to do and some really great restaurants.
Atlanta does have a lot going on, but I've never been a fan.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 13, 2011, 08:46:25 AM
Comparing to Jacksonville to Atlanta is not fair, by any means.
Sure it is, although that's not really the purpose of the Elements of Urbanism series. Nevertheless, you can compare the basic components of urbanism on any scale. For example, urban Charleston, SC is significantly more walkable than Atlanta or Jacksonville despite the its smaller size. Both Atlanta and Jacksonville could learn a ton of good techniques (from Charleston) on how to cluster complementing uses within a compact setting to stimulate urban synergy and vibrancy in manner that improves the city's tax rolls and its resident's quality of life. Speaking of Atlanta, one simple thing we can take from them is how to design an urban park space that contains a mix of uses, which gives it the ability to attract people on an around the clock basis. Such a concept can be applied to a space as large as Atlanta's Centennial Park, Jacksonville's Hogans Creek and Shipyards sites or one as small as Hemming Plaza.
Quote from: Lunican on April 13, 2011, 09:56:37 AM
Atlanta does have a lot going on, but I've never been a fan.
I'm not crazy about Atlanta but I do admit its urban core has come a long way in the last 10-15 years.
Atlanta is one place I will never miss.
This segment just focused on downtown, which to me is not the focus of Atlanta any longer, though it is coming back in a strong way. I would say that Buckhead or Midtown are Atlanta's current focal point and I hope you got to spend time in those areas (as well as West Midtown, Virginia Highlands, Inman Park, and other East Atlanta neighborhoods).
Downtown is still kind of rough around the edges, but there are some nice spots, especially around Centennial Olympic Park. I lived two blocks from there when the big tornado came through a few years ago and you would not recognize it then from today.
There are some big things happening downtown currently. In addition to Central Atlanta Progress, downtown's official community improvement district, the area is served by three tax increment financing districts (collectively known as TADs here in Atlanta). The Eastside TAD covers the Grady Curve, Georgia State, King Memorial, and the government areas. This area has just secured all of the funding necessary for Atlanta's first streetcar in a really long time (will be over 2 miles straight through downtown and into the Edgewood area). Big developers have long eyed the area (Novare, Hines Interests, and smaller but higher profile developers).
Eastside TAD Project Photo Gallery (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52764539%40N08/sets/72157624652983704/)
The Westside TAD encompasses most of downtown and has already spurred huge developments. See some great photos of completed or UC projects directly spurred on by the Westside TAD here:
Westside TAD Project Slideshow (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52764539@N08/sets/72157624652908152/show/)
Central Atlanta Progress: Atlanta's Downtown Community Improvement Authority (http://www.atlantadowntown.com/)
Just since I have been in Atlanta, downtown has added a new aquarium (with Dolphin expansion soon to officially open as we speak), a new world of coke, Twelve Hotel, Twelve Centennial Park 40 floor condos, W Downtown, 55 Allen Plaza (14 floor office), Ellis Hotel, several new restaurants and bars, a renovated Macy's department store (now event space and mixed use), several new Georgia State buildings including new dorms and whole new colleges, new hotels and condos around Centennial Olympic Park, etc etc.
The 5-8 year outlook is great, too. The Thrashers may not be playing in Phillips within a year, but the Falcons may be getting a new state of the art stadium. Cousins was just awarded the downtown redevelopment project of the decade, the Gulch, and has plans for an up to 70 story tower to anchor the project. The streetcar will soon break ground and will connect Centennial Olympic Park with the Edgewood Historic District. Allen Plaza is still in the hot seat of the development world. Suntrust is always trying to do stuff. The outlook is good, overall.
FYI, aside from Suntrust Plaza and 191 Peachtree, downtown office space is largely what I would consider A- to Class B or lower (though would definitely be "Class A" in Jax). Most of the Class A office space is concentrated in Midtown and Buckhead, and each of those submarkets in addition to Vinings and Perimeter are basically every bit as large as downtown (Midtown is now larger in almost every way except overall office space...much more Class A though).
And as an aside about parks, Atlanta is definitely a park city. If one wanted to know where the best residential investments would be, one would need to look no further than a few blocks off of any of Atlanta's main parks, for which there are many. This weekend alone is the Dogwood Festival in Piedmont Park (will be there Saturday running a Beltline booth) and Sweetwater 420 Festival in Candler Park (will be there Sunday to drink beer and see bands and eat food with many of my friends). This is one weekend, and Dogwood pulls in hundreds of thousands of people and 420 Fest attracts thousands, maybe tens of thousands.
I have never been a huge fan of Atlanta because the metro area has some of the worst sprawl known to man. However, it is impressive how much they have going on in the center of the city for an area where most live in the suburbs. One take away from Atlanta that Jacksonville and my home city of Tampa could learn is get a train or light rail. A buddy and I flew up from Tampa to Atlanta so that we could see FSU in the Chick-Fil-A Bowl. We got into the airport, quickly hopped on MARTA and were in downtown within 20 minutes. It cost all of like $2.00 for the fare. When we got downtown, we basically walked everywhere very easily. This definitely saved us money by not having to take a long cab ride or paying for a rental car and then for valet at the hotel.
Quote from: simms3 on April 13, 2011, 11:14:08 AM
This segment just focused on downtown, which to me is not the focus of Atlanta any longer, though it is coming back in a strong way. I would say that Buckhead or Midtown are Atlanta's current focal point and I hope you got to spend time in those areas (as well as West Midtown, Virginia Highlands, Inman Park, and other East Atlanta neighborhoods).
I'm pretty familiar with Atlanta and actually stayed in Buckhead this past trip and in Midtown a few months ago. I've been following it, development wise, since my older brother lived Vinings back in the late 80s/early 90s. However, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities, which explains why the ATL is not higher up on my list of excitable urban environments (love the industrial lofts and modern architecture of ATL but don't like the density or feel at street level for the most part). Nevertheless, over the last couple of trips, I have taken several images of some of the neighborhoods you've mentioned and some others such as Cabbagetown, Castleberry Hill and the West End around the cluster of HBCUs and see many areas where Atlanta has excelled that Jax would be smart to follow.
QuoteIn addition to Central Atlanta Progress, downtown's official community improvement district, the area is served by three tax increment financing districts (collectively known as TADs here in Atlanta). The Eastside TAD covers the Grady Curve, Georgia State, King Memorial, and the government areas. This area has just secured all of the funding necessary for Atlanta's first streetcar in a really long time (will be over 2 miles straight through downtown and into the Edgewood area). Big developers have long eyed the area (Novare, Hines Interests, and smaller but higher profile developers).
I think this is something that urban Jax should explore. Short of deconsolidation, TIFs may be the way to go for the urban core to get the type of quality of life improvements it needs in a city/county dominated with suburban interest.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2011, 11:47:28 AM
However, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities, which explains why the ATL is not higher up on my list of excitable urban environments (love the industrial lofts and modern architecture of ATL but don't like the density or feel at street level for the most part).
If someone can build those 'cloud cars' from Star Wars, would you live there anyways? ;D
-Josh
The implementation of the Beltline and the redevelopment of the former City Hall East/Sears property
on Ponce by Jamestown/ Green Street Properties is going to be incredible.....
thank goodness for GSU, a lot (more) of downtown would be a ghost town without it....
QuoteThis segment just focused on downtown, which to me is not the focus of Atlanta any longer, though it is coming back in a strong way. I would say that Buckhead or Midtown are Atlanta's current focal point
IMO, having lived in the city for a brief period... is where the most appropriate comparison to Jax lies within. The surrounding neighborhoods are booming(much like Riverside/Avondale and San Marco). The difference in this comparison is that DT Atlanta does not make it difficult for small businesses to start/operate within their central core. That's the lesson Jacksonville HAS to learn.
Quotebut there is 1 drawback to Atlanta that Jacksonville does have: Water.
Definately in the top 3 reasons why I live here, and not anywhere near Fulton/Dekalb County.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2011, 11:47:28 AM
I'm pretty familiar with Atlanta and actually stayed in Buckhead this past trip and in Midtown a few months ago. I've been following it, development wise, since my older brother lived Vinings back in the late 80s/early 90s. However, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities, which explains why the ATL is not higher up on my list of excitable urban environments (love the industrial lofts and modern architecture of ATL but don't like the density or feel at street level for the most part). Nevertheless, over the last couple of trips, I have taken several images of some of the neighborhoods you've mentioned and some others such as Cabbagetown, Castleberry Hill and the West End around the cluster of HBCUs and see many areas where Atlanta has excelled that Jax would be smart to follow.
I agree that Atlanta does not provide that industrial environment nearly to the degree of the Upper Midwest and Northeastern cities, but imo Atlanta feels the grittiest and most industrial and densest at street level of any of the Sunbelt cities outside of LA and San Diego. Considering Atlanta has warehouse/loft districts (such as Castleberry Hill) that are nearly the size of Springfield, I think it does ok in the industrial feel department, though it's always improving and rightly so (we still have a long way to go to compare to Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or even Seattle).
Atlanta and Dallas are often compared in the same light, but having been to Dallas twice, one time of which I stayed in Uptown and experienced Downtown for 3 days, Dallas is about as dead as Jacksonville (though it has apparently picked up some in the last 2 years alone). Uptown reminded me more of Vinings than Midtown, and Dallas did not fully grasp walkability and its core attributes.
billy,
I have seen the preliminary plans for Green Street's redevelopment of the City Hall East, and it is going to be incredible. In addition, my company JV'd with North American Properties as the capital partner for Atlantic Station, and the redevelopment there should be quite phenomenal, as well. You know that the Chelsea Market in New York is a Green Street creation right? Expect 2 "Chelsea Markets" in Atlanta in the near future! :)
I think Atlanta is by far the most sophisticated city in the SE in terms of development, even beating out Miami. I would much rather be in Midtown than in Brickell, personally. I, too, like a little bit of grit and history and character, which Miami is sorely lacking in in most areas. As sprawled as Atlanta is, Atlanta is really the top secondary market for urban development in the country and as such it attracts all of the big players and all of the big money. Who cares about the sprawl? New York sprawls even more. If Jacksonville just copied most of what Atlanta did, it would be in better shape, even with the sprawl. Charlotte is literally just trying to copy Atlanta (hence why they call themselves the New Atlanta), and look where they have gone!
Wow, I guess there are some southerners that know about urban living. What's more is that they actually managed to implement urban fabric. Maybe they can educate the idiots down here. (city leaders and those that voted for them)
Just look at Westside Provisions....
by the way, simms 3, where did you see the plans?
I lived in Atl for 8 years. There some parts I miss and do not miss, but I rather be back in Atl than Jax if the opportunity came along.
Quote from: simms3 on April 13, 2011, 01:17:22 PM
I agree that Atlanta does not provide that industrial environment nearly to the degree of the Upper Midwest and Northeastern cities, but imo Atlanta feels the grittiest and most industrial and densest at street level of any of the Sunbelt cities outside of LA and San Diego.
Gritty sunbelt cities with more walkable urban cores at street level include New Orleans, Memphis, Richmond and Birmingham. Although metro Atlanta is more than twice the size of these places and has seen the boom of highrises along highway spines (ex. Buckhead, etc.), they still tend to have more compact urban cores at street level. With that said, all don't have all the ritz and glamour that Atlanta has developed over the last few decades.
QuoteAtlanta and Dallas are often compared in the same light, but having been to Dallas twice, one time of which I stayed in Uptown and experienced Downtown for 3 days, Dallas is about as dead as Jacksonville (though it has apparently picked up some in the last 2 years alone). Uptown reminded me more of Vinings than Midtown, and Dallas did not fully grasp walkability and its core attributes.
I explored Dallas extensively during my last two visits (around 2006 & 2007). Although I wouldn't want to live there either (the water factor), I prefer it to Atlanta because of the more extensive mass transit system and Fort Worth being close by.
QuoteI think Atlanta is by far the most sophisticated city in the SE in terms of development, even beating out Miami. I would much rather be in Midtown than in Brickell, personally. I, too, like a little bit of grit and history and character, which Miami is sorely lacking in in most areas. As sprawled as Atlanta is, Atlanta is really the top secondary market for urban development in the country and as such it attracts all of the big players and all of the big money. Who cares about the sprawl? New York sprawls even more. If Jacksonville just copied most of what Atlanta did, it would be in better shape, even with the sprawl. Charlotte is literally just trying to copy Atlanta (hence why they call themselves the New Atlanta), and look where they have gone!
I think the major differences between Miami and Atlanta come in the form of culture, diversity and water. Other than being much denser than Atlanta, those three other elements give these places a completely different vibe.
Quote from: billy on April 13, 2011, 02:28:05 PM
Just look at Westside Provisions....
by the way, simms 3, where did you see the plans?
I have met the president of Green Street Properties a couple of times (even applied for a job there). She presented the plans to a group in Buckhead about a month and a half ago.
White Provision is a development partnership between a few interesting players: Weaver and Woodbury (http://www.wwcompany.com/index.html) and Jamestown. Everybody knows about Jamestown (major German owner, developer, and operator with their American offices in Atlanta, now wholly owns Green Street Properties, another Atlanta developer which is now probably a top 3 New York City developer by default). What's interesting is one of the development principals, Chris Faussemagne, is the son of Jack Faussemagne, who was Bill Johnson's CFO at Waffle House/Ritz Carlton. I got a chance to meet Mr. Jack Faussemagne once and these are some of the most querky, brilliant, and interesting people I have ever met (think Barney Frank in appearance and style with a brain geared for development).
Here is White Provision's website. This development is a mile west of Midtown in a rapidly developing neighborhood called West Midtown.
White Provisions (http://whiteprovision.com/)
Speaking of Atlanta, I think a complete streets program for the urban core would be great. The city has a ton of neighborhood nodes that are disconnected due to narrow undivided four lane streets and disconnected sidewalks. As the area continues to fill in, more public investment in the bike/ped network will vastly improve things at street level and may actually take some cars off those wide freeways.
simms3, are you referring to Mr. Phillips....?
Lake,
New Orleans I agree with, but definitely not Richmond, Memphis, or Birmingham. Besides, while Atlanta certainly has crime, it does not compare to the crime of NOLA or Memphis (per capita and around downtown). And the Fan is really the only "unique" thing about Richmond. Birmingham is deader than doornails and has fewer old skyscrapers (albeit a couple of tall ones) and fewer buildings period. Jacksonville's downtown is larger than Birmingham's (and maybe even Memphis's at that in terms of GLA).
RE: Dallas, it does have a more light rail track mileage than Atlanta's heavy rail track mileage and is expanding with TIGER money, but does not have the same level of ridership as MARTA. Also, I really could not get over Dallas's topography and flora/fauna. Totally flat, brown, no water, oddly painted highways, and an appearance of dust to me. Never made it over to Fort Worth, but I haven't heard anything about it enough to peek my interest over say Kansas City, Austin, or even San Antonio. I just don't see how you could prefer Dallas over Atlanta when it is a far more suburban and less sophisticated city within the areas that count (suburbs to suburbs, both suck).
RE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me. I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate. Atlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however. Both have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).
Quote from: billy on April 13, 2011, 03:19:26 PM
simms3, are you referring to Mr. Phillips....?
Katharine Kelley
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2011, 03:18:36 PM
Speaking of Atlanta, I think a complete streets program for the urban core would be great. The city has a ton of neighborhood nodes that are disconnected due to narrow undivided four lane streets and disconnected sidewalks. As the area continues to fill in, more public investment in the bike/ped network will vastly improve things at street level and may actually take some cars off those wide freeways.
Agreed. In the works in many areas. There is under development a series of green bike paths to connect Emory and Georgia Tech, which are currently connected via bus. I agree that many of the streets and sidewalks are narrow, but the sidewalks are being replaced on all major thoroughfares (funding complements of all of the various CIDs).
The major street problems in Atlanta hover around all of the potholes (I mean it's literally worse than Detroit, bla) and the fact that the only semi-grid in the metro is in Downtown/Midtown, and I say semi-grid. In Jacksonville, the arterials are as wide as the highways. In Atlanta the highways are 20 lanes wide and the arterials/major thoroughfares are still mostly only 2-4 lanes wide! And none of them connect! It's actually amazing what the city has accomplished in terms of urban development considering there is no grid (which gives Miami a huge leg up, BTW).
Quote from: simms3 on April 13, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
Lake,
New Orleans I agree with, but definitely not Richmond, Memphis, or Birmingham. Besides, while Atlanta certainly has crime, it does not compare to the crime of NOLA or Memphis (per capita and around downtown). And the Fan is really the only "unique" thing about Richmond. Birmingham is deader than doornails and has fewer old skyscrapers (albeit a couple of tall ones) and fewer buildings period.
I'm admit, I wasn't speaking in terms of vibrancy. I was speaking in terms of built infrastructure and compactness at the pedestrian level within the urban core. For example, while Richmond's Fan may be the most decent neighborhood in terms of social atmosphere or safety for some, from a built urban environment perspective, Shockoe Slip, Shockoe Bottom, Jackson Ward, Church Hill and Carytown are just as impressive.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3070-p1020555.jpg)
Typical street scene in Richmond's Jackson WardTo spin it from a Jacksonville perspective, most people tend to focus only on Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and Springfield as the urban districts worth talking about. However, from an urban density and architectural perspective, Durkeeville (our densest neighborhood), Brentwood (wonderful collection of historic bungalow architecture), New Springfield (a historic warehouse district and tons of old school multifamily structures) and the Eastside (still retains a significant amount of compact shotgun housing and historic churches) are just as (if not more impressive) in their own right.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/493696903_923VP-M.jpg)
Durkeeville.QuoteJacksonville's downtown is larger than Birmingham's (and maybe even Memphis's at that in terms of GLA).
Yes, in terms of high rise square footage but not in terms of built density at street level.
So when I speak of urbanity, my mind tends to focus on the built environment and developing solutions to better utilize it, moreso than if its vibrant or not, at a particular moment. So this is why I tend to value a neighborhood like Jackson Ward in Richmond, or a Durkeeville in Jacksonville, while most recognize them as the hood and advise to stay away.
QuoteRE: Dallas, it does have a more light rail track mileage than Atlanta's heavy rail track mileage and is expanding with TIGER money, but does not have the same level of ridership as MARTA. Also, I really could not get over Dallas's topography and flora/fauna. Totally flat, brown, no water, oddly painted highways, and an appearance of dust to me. Never made it over to Fort Worth, but I haven't heard anything about it enough to peek my interest over say Kansas City, Austin, or even San Antonio. I just don't see how you could prefer Dallas over Atlanta when it is a far more suburban and less sophisticated city within the areas that count (suburbs to suburbs, both suck).
It's proximity to Fort Worth is what puts it over the top. I actual prefer Fort Worth over Dallas.
QuoteRE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me. I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate.
I agree about Brickell. Areas like South Beach, Coconut Grove, Little Havana and Coral Gables have much better flavor.
QuoteAtlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however.
+100
QuoteBoth have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).
What do you think about Houston and how it compares to Atlanta?
QuoteFor example, urban Charleston, SC is significantly more walkable
Great, we're here talking about Atlanta though.
QuoteI do admit its urban core has come a long way in the last 10-15 years.
Having been in Atlanta from 1987-1998, I would call the growth period from 1990 really the Phoenix years, where the city built itself up from the ground. The Olympics were a HUGE boost from 1990-1996. I still remember where I was when I heard the Olympic committee announcing Atlanta would be hosting, it really made downtown clean up its core like nothing else. Centennial park remains from it, the Aquarium was built next to it, and World of Coke moved from Underground, which has been a failure (twice now), to the CNN/Aquarium/Centennial Park area. Yes, we lack a major park for use in downtown, but we do have the riverwalk and a few parcels of land that can change that.
Atlanta does have one thing Jax does not have, the absolute worst potholes and steel pothole covers in the world. Try driving on them in the rain sometime!
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 13, 2011, 04:56:12 PM
QuoteFor example, urban Charleston, SC is significantly more walkable
Great, we're here talking about Atlanta though.
Right, but you mentioned it wasn't comparable to Jax based off scale.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 13, 2011, 08:46:25 AM
Comparing to Jacksonville to Atlanta is not fair, by any means. The disparities are endless. Atlanta has over 40 colleges in the metro area, which is 40+ counties large. Atlanta has had these a college presence for over 100 years, and boasts the world's largest airport, numerous super bowls and sporting events. There is probably 1,000x the money there than in Jacksonville, but there is 1 drawback to Atlanta that Jacksonville does have: Water.
My point is that from an urban core planning perspective, we can certainly take note of success and failure strategies in a city like Atlanta and apply
or not apply them into improving our setting.
No Lubi's either...
Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.
BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.
Atlanta is what Jacksonville was supposed to become before those no brain good ole boys destroyed our city. Great city and in my opinion the greatest City in the Southeast; it's really a toss up between Atlanta and Miami as to which is the greatest in the Southeast!
"HU"
Quote from: peestandingup on April 13, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.
BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.
Uh ok, you speak as if you have never been or maybe went once and stayed outside of the perimeter. Atlanta has several neighborhoods with 10,000-14,000 people per square mile, and it has at least 5 times as many pre-1930 buildings as Jacksonville does. The *only* three things Jacksonville has over Atlanta are an abundance of water, better/warmer weather (though I like 4 seasons), and a more extensive "grid" system. Maybe I would add less corruption on top of that, but aside from massive patronage, city politics here have not bugged me to the core yet.
Altanta has basically 9 Springfields all by itself (and I can name them, each has at least a square mile and is predominantly single family residential with the average home built in 1915 or earlier).
Atlanta has 2 Avondales: Druid Hills (designed by Frederick Law Olmsted) and Brookwood Hills.
Atlanta has a monster Ortega (really like 20 Ortegas combined with 1920s houses that average out to the grandest homes on the river in Ortega): Buckhead
Atlanta has its own really really large San Marco: Brookhaven (around the Capital City Club)
Atlanta also has two Riversides: Little 5 Points and East Atlanta
Atlanta also has something Jacksonville doesn't have at all: an old warehouse district (Castleberry Hill)
This is not to mention Atlanta's downtown was the size of Jacksonville's current downtown by 1940 or 1950 (if you include Midtown).
Also, the town of Roswell outside of the perimeter has a historic core where the buildings were constructed from the 1820s to the 1850s. It's actually quite a lively place (went to a wedding there once, and there are lots of restaurants, shops, and bars). Actually, all of the old suburbs have old towns (Stone Mountain, Decatur, Marietta, Roswell, and others).
And you said Atlanta made you feel like you were in a walkable Southside. Sorry, but we just don't build buildings so bland and cheap looking here. We certainly have our "Southside" areas, but not in the core.
And regarding charm, you can't beat the pristine "natural" landscaping of the city. Not only are all of the buildings relatively fixed up and in great shape compared to most of the historic buildings in Jax, the trees and flowers and landscaping here are simply hard to beat. I feel like in Jax you are looking at a bunch of pines, some scraggly palms, and hardly any landscaping or flowers. Most of the trees here flower and there is variety, and most people can afford some sort of landscaping. Perennials are really big here, too.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 13, 2011, 04:56:12 PM
Atlanta does have one thing Jax does not have, the absolute worst potholes and steel pothole covers in the world. Try driving on them in the rain sometime!
This could not be truer. Atlanta should just go ahead and write each resident with a car a big fat check for repairs each year. Detroit doesn't even have half the potholes we do. I do think part of the problem is that we have HUGE temperature swings nearly all year long. In the Fall, Winter, and Spring we'll have a couple days below 20 and then a couple days above 60. Jacksonville has temperature swings, but it never gets really cold enough to do damage to the asphalt when it warms back up.
Quote from: simms3 on April 13, 2011, 11:31:31 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 13, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
Atlanta certainly has more going for it than Jax's core & we could learn a lot from it, but I personally could take it or leave it as a town. There's just not a lot of charm to it & even the urban areas have a sprawling feel to them. Hard to explain. It's sorta like if Southside Jax were more walkable & had more attractions, then that would remind me of Atlanta in a lot of ways.
BUT, they're the metro of the south & are in a better position than most down here. I just personally don't like the feel of it & prefer more condensity/historic fabric. Older towns that were created from the beginning to be walkable with greater infill & that STAYED somewhat condensed.
Uh ok, you speak as if you have never been or maybe went once and stayed outside of the perimeter. Atlanta has several neighborhoods with 10,000-14,000 people per square mile, and it has at least 5 times as many pre-1930 buildings as Jacksonville does. The *only* three things Jacksonville has over Atlanta are an abundance of water, better/warmer weather (though I like 4 seasons), and a more extensive "grid" system. Maybe I would add less corruption on top of that, but aside from massive patronage, city politics here have not bugged me to the core yet.
Altanta has basically 9 Springfields all by itself (and I can name them, each has at least a square mile and is predominantly single family residential with the average home built in 1915 or earlier).
Atlanta has 2 Avondales: Druid Hills (designed by Frederick Law Olmsted) and Brookwood Hills.
Atlanta has a monster Ortega (really like 20 Ortegas combined with 1920s houses that average out to the grandest homes on the river in Ortega): Buckhead
Atlanta has its own really really large San Marco: Brookhaven (around the Capital City Club)
Atlanta also has two Riversides: Little 5 Points and East Atlanta
Atlanta also has something Jacksonville doesn't have at all: an old warehouse district (Castleberry Hill)
This is not to mention Atlanta's downtown was the size of Jacksonville's current downtown by 1940 or 1950 (if you include Midtown).
Also, the town of Roswell outside of the perimeter has a historic core where the buildings were constructed from the 1820s to the 1850s. It's actually quite a lively place (went to a wedding there once, and there are lots of restaurants, shops, and bars). Actually, all of the old suburbs have old towns (Stone Mountain, Decatur, Marietta, Roswell, and others).
And you said Atlanta made you feel like you were in a walkable Southside. Sorry, but we just don't build buildings so bland and cheap looking here. We certainly have our "Southside" areas, but not in the core.
And regarding charm, you can't beat the pristine "natural" landscaping of the city. Not only are all of the buildings relatively fixed up and in great shape compared to most of the historic buildings in Jax, the trees and flowers and landscaping here are simply hard to beat. I feel like in Jax you are looking at a bunch of pines, some scraggly palms, and hardly any landscaping or flowers. Most of the trees here flower and there is variety, and most people can afford some sort of landscaping. Perennials are really big here, too.
Uh, OK. But I wasn't comparing Jax to Atlanta, like at all. ??? Just said Jax could learn some things from Atlanta. If it makes you feel any better & you want my honest opinion, for my money they both suck in the grand scheme of things (just Atlanta sucks less & has much more going for it urban-wise). So yeah, if you're comparing Jax to Atlanta, Atlanta is probably gonna wipe the floor with Jax every time in a lot of the respects we talk about on here. Hell, it'll probably beat out almost every city in a lot of different "urban ways" in the entire Southeast part of the US. But guess what. That's not saying a whole lot. No offense to anyone, just being real about it.
So, I didn't mean any disrespect. We all know you're in love with the place (you only find a way to talk about it in every single thread) & that's OK. You can like what you like. But so can I, and I think its a very bland, institutional town with way too much sprawl for my taste. I prefer more condensed, more historical & a true pedestrian fabric (that was built & stayed that way). Give me a New Orleans or DC any day over an Atlanta or Charlotte. Just my opinion.
P.S. Been there plenty. Been & lived in plenty of other towns too.
Actually I agree with you and would much rather live in New York, DC, Boston, or San Fran, but I went to school in Atlanta, made connections in Atlanta, and entered a very small and exclusive industry (real estate) in Atlanta. If I could land a killer job in my field in a larger, denser city I would certainly not hesitate to take it on. I'm damn well travelled myself and I just don't think Atlanta is as "sprawly" in the core as some people make it out to be (the metro sprawls more than Jacksonville, but the developed core stays above 5,000 ppsm). I also wouldn't compare Atlanta and Charlotte. It's hard to spot a building pre-1990 in Charlotte (the whole thing just popped out of the ground in the last few decades). If I had to choose between Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, or Phoenix, then you know where I stand firm, and I believe for good reason (50% having to do with urbanity and development).
Kind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York. The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.
Quote from: simms3 on April 14, 2011, 12:36:21 AM
Actually I agree with you and would much rather live in New York, DC, Boston, or San Fran, but I went to school in Atlanta, made connections in Atlanta, and entered a very small and exclusive industry (real estate) in Atlanta. If I could land a killer job in my field in a larger, denser city I would certainly not hesitate to take it on. I'm damn well travelled myself and I just don't think Atlanta is as "sprawly" in the core as some people make it out to be (the metro sprawls more than Jacksonville, but the developed core stays above 5,000 ppsm). I also wouldn't compare Atlanta and Charlotte. It's hard to spot a building pre-1990 in Charlotte (the whole thing just popped out of the ground in the last few decades). If I had to choose between Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, or Phoenix, then you know where I stand firm, and I believe for good reason (50% having to do with urbanity and development).
Kind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York. The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.
Having lived in all three cities. JAX has a greater cultural connectoin to NYC than Atlanta. In terms of urban morphology, Atlanta will always be the dry heart of Dixie, sprawled out like a Texas town.
Quotehe difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale)
Unless you find a way to connect the Top End Perimeter to Buckhead to Midtown to Downtown in walkable urban grid, this statement will never happen. Too many neighborhoods with Single Family Housing in the way. Manhattan will not be duplicated in Atlanta, and thankfully so.
ATL has too may damn 'Peach' named streets! It is soooo confusing, okay I get it, Georgia is the Peach state. ATL & MIA comparasions are pretty funny to me. ATL has more Fortune 500's in it's suburbs than MIA has in it's city limits, and even Jax has more in it's city limits than MIA. But yet the Nat'l media wanna forcefeed that 'MIA is all that, and a bag of chips' bullcrap.
Interesting article. This quote captures my view of Atlanta.
"Atlanta is left as a sort of “quarter way house†caught between its traditional sprawling self and a more upscale urban metropolis. It offers neither the low traffic quality of life of its upstart competition, nor the sophisticated urban living of a Chicago or Boston."
QuoteIS IT GAME OVER FOR ATLANTA?
With growth slowing, a lack of infrastructure investment catching up with it, and rising competition in the neighborhood, the Capital of the New South is looking vulnerable.
Atlanta is arguably the greatest American urban growth story of the 20th century. In 1950, it was a sleepy state capital in a region of about a million people, not much different from Indianapolis or Columbus, Ohio. Today, it's a teeming region of 5.5 million, the 9th largest in America, home to the world's busiest airport, a major subway system, and numerous corporations. Critically, it also has established itself as the country's premier African American hub at a time of black empowerment.
Though famous for its sprawl, Atlanta has also quietly become one of America's top urban success stories. The city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period. None of America's traditional premier urban centers can make that claim. As a Chicago city-dweller who did multiple consulting stints in Atlanta, I can tell you the city is much better than its reputation in urbanists circles suggests, and it is a place I could happily live.
Yet the Great Recession has exposed some troubling cracks in the foundations of Atlanta's success. Though perhaps it is too early to declare “game over†for Atlanta, converging trends point to a possible plateauing of Atlanta remarkable rise, and the end of its great growth phase.
Full Article:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001574-is-it-game-over-atlanta
QuoteThe city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period.
This is a huge misquote. The City of Atlanta gained less than 4,000 new residents between 2000 and 2010, according to recently released census data.
QuoteThe city of Atlanta’s population changed less than 1 percent over the last decade, according to figures released Thursday by the U.S. Census Bureau.
A total of 420,003 people currently reside inside Atlanta city limits, including the Cascade community. That’s an increase of 3,529 people from 2000’s figure of 416,474, or 0.8 percent.
http://cascade.patch.com/articles/atlanta-city-limits-population-remains-stable-since-2000-3
Good catch. I wonder where they pulled the 120,000 number from.
The article was written in May 2010. Were the census estimates projecting 120,000?
Probably. They overestimated Atlanta and many other cities.
It looks like that is exactly what happened and it only serves to validate the point of the original article.
QuoteAtlanta’s census count falls below estimates
Where have all the people gone?
When the U.S. Census Bureau reported its 2010 population findings last month, it said it had counted 420,003 people in the city of Atlanta.
That’s 3,529 more people than the Census found in Atlanta in 2000.
But it’s 117,955 fewer people than the Census Bureau’s own estimate of Atlanta’s population in 2008.
“The Atlanta count for 2010 was quite a bit lower than our estimate,†Census spokesman Robert Bernstein admitted.
That’s a bit of an understatement.
http://www.reporternewspapers.net/2011/04/07/atlantas-census-count-falls-estimates/
Wow, what a thread! There's a lot of Jax versus ATL versus MIA here. Having been born and raised in Miami, and having worked and lived in Atlanta for awhile (before moving to DC in 2007,) I might be able to offer clarity.
(I'll get to the Miami/Atlanta comparos in a moment.)
QuoteKind of like as someone said, if it's unrealistic to compare Jacksonville to Atlanta, it's unrealistic to compare Atlanta to New York. The difference is that Atlanta is becoming New York (albeit slowly and on a newer, smaller scale) and Jacksonville is becoming nothing.
While calling themselves "the Manhattan of the South," in no way is Atlanta going to become New York anytime soon. Not dense enough, not exclusive enough...and since the inexpensiveness is part of the draw for Atlanta "you can work for [INSERT COMPANY HERE] and have a 4 bedroom house with pool for nothing," I doubt they'll supplant NYC.
QuoteHaving lived in all three cities. JAX has a greater cultural connectoin to NYC than Atlanta. In terms of urban morphology, Atlanta will always be the dry heart of Dixie, sprawled out like a Texas town.
This is flat-out wrong. For the most part, when NYC people deign to move from the Big Apple to the South, they end up in either Atlanta or Miami (the 6th burrough of New York, really.) Current cultural trends align to both ATL and MIA
waaaaaay more than they align to JAX.
QuoteATL & MIA comparasions are pretty funny to me. ATL has more Fortune 500's in it's suburbs than MIA has in it's city limits, and even Jax has more in it's city limits than MIA. But yet the Nat'l media wanna forcefeed that 'MIA is all that, and a bag of chips' bullcrap.
You know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.
QuoteRE: Miami, it is definitely denser than Atlanta on average all across the metro (mainly via street-hostile condos littered all about), but Brickell is really nothing special to me. I'd say culture and diversity are the defining differences, as well as history, topography, and business climate. Atlanta is far closer in culture to Miami than Jacksonville is, however. Both have more of a big city mentality, both have somewhat defining cultures of the city, both have big city amenities, both have heavy mass transit, both have lots of skyscrapers, and both have pretty diverse populations (there are close to 600,000 documented Hispanics in Greater Atlanta, and almost as many Asians, not to mention almost 2 million blacks...Miami beats out everybody in the Hispanic department, has over a million blacks, and does not have many Asians).
Miami is also somewhat post-race and post-sexual orientation, where Atlanta mos def retains a bit of it's southern nature. But I always found Atlanta to be quite similar to Miami: a car-centric metro (even in the "city") that trades "Spanish drag" for "Tara drag" as it's modus operandi. Decent city, though. If you like it big and cheap, you'll love Atlanta. I lived in Buckhead for $950 a month in a luxury condo. It was awesome.
Probably the largest issue facing Atlanta is the utter dearth of density. When I was marketing real estate there, this came up quite a bit, in that you're marketing high-rises that may or may not be a part of a dense development, while you're also marketing lots of land! lots of square feet! across the metro. And yet, over the next few years, they're going to have to figure out how to stitch all of this together. Consider (all from wikipedia):
Greater NYC:
POP: 18,897,109
Area: 6,720 sq. mi.
Density: 2,838/sq. mi.
Metro LA:
POP: 12,828,837
Area: 4850.3 sq. mi.
Density: 2654.4/sq. mi.
Washington Metro:
POP: 5,582,170
Area: 5,564.6 sq mi
Density: 962.9/sq mi.
South Florida:
POP: 5,564,635
Area: 6,137 sq. mi.
Density: 890/sq. mi.
Metro Atlanta:
POP: 5,268,860
Area: 8,376 sq mi.
Density: 630/sq mi.
Mind you, this method isn’t perfect. It doesn’t take into account that basically 2/3rds of the South Florida “land†is protected Everglades (making it much denser,) or that government complexes, national parks and other protected lands essentially ribbon through DC’s metro, or that about ¼ of LA’s “land†is “mountains.â€
But it’s pretty striking. Atlanta’s nearest metro equivalents (Miami and DC…the “about 5.5 million metros,â€) are about 1.5 times more dense on a much smaller plot of land. I mean, metro Atlanta has more area than freakin’ LA!!!!! That’s a loooooooottttttt of dead space before Atlanta becomes the big Peach, and Metro Atlanta becomes the Cobbler.
Atlanta is a great city visit. It is also a great example. Mayor hartsfield pratically made that city what it is. His vision is something Jacksonville's next mayor can definately take notes on. However, I would never stay in Atlanta. Its just something about it that I can get into. The traffic is one thing. But it just does not draw me for some reason. Ive considered it, but change my mind each time. I have family and friends up there.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 13, 2011, 09:01:50 PM
Atlanta is what Jacksonville was supposed to become before those no brain good ole boys destroyed our city. Great city and in my opinion the greatest City in the Southeast; it's really a toss up between Atlanta and Miami as to which is the greatest in the Southeast!
"HU"
You are exactly right! I heard someone say that a long time ago. I think thats the things that kills the citizens of Jacksonville. Sooooooooo much potential. But we lack leadership that has a vision. If I urban was that of ATL's, people would be flocking hear in hoards. Our DT does fool people. Because it looks nice from afar. But once you realize that most of those buildings are empty it makes you say, "WTF!"
Quote from: Lunican on April 16, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
Interesting article. This quote captures my view of Atlanta.
"Atlanta is left as a sort of “quarter way house†caught between its traditional sprawling self and a more upscale urban metropolis. It offers neither the low traffic quality of life of its upstart competition, nor the sophisticated urban living of a Chicago or Boston."
QuoteIS IT GAME OVER FOR ATLANTA?
With growth slowing, a lack of infrastructure investment catching up with it, and rising competition in the neighborhood, the Capital of the New South is looking vulnerable.
Atlanta is arguably the greatest American urban growth story of the 20th century. In 1950, it was a sleepy state capital in a region of about a million people, not much different from Indianapolis or Columbus, Ohio. Today, it's a teeming region of 5.5 million, the 9th largest in America, home to the world's busiest airport, a major subway system, and numerous corporations. Critically, it also has established itself as the country's premier African American hub at a time of black empowerment.
Though famous for its sprawl, Atlanta has also quietly become one of America's top urban success stories. The city of Atlanta has added nearly 120,000 new residents since 2000, a population increase of 28% representing fully 10% of the region's growth during that period. None of America's traditional premier urban centers can make that claim. As a Chicago city-dweller who did multiple consulting stints in Atlanta, I can tell you the city is much better than its reputation in urbanists circles suggests, and it is a place I could happily live.
Yet the Great Recession has exposed some troubling cracks in the foundations of Atlanta's success. Though perhaps it is too early to declare “game over†for Atlanta, converging trends point to a possible plateauing of Atlanta remarkable rise, and the end of its great growth phase.
Full Article:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001574-is-it-game-over-atlanta
I agree with this article. The recession has really caused some damage their. My friend has been there for six years and he says he is ready to leave. Still a great city, but definately not the ATL of its hay days.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on April 20, 2011, 03:15:30 PM
You know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.
F-500's aren't everything and DENSITY is? Hahahaha. Last time I checked, Hartsfield has more air traffic than Miami Int'l. MIA vs ATL business is still not that close, whether it's smaller white collar businesses, or F-500's. Mia has gotta have one of the biggest egos of any city in America. They seem to think that they have invented everything, but yet before Griselda Blanco started offin' all of those people in the eighties, MIA was basically Everglades swamp.
Metro Miami has three international airports while Atlanta has one. When added up, how do they rank with Atlanta's?
I think Miami is a preview of 21st century America: Heavily Hispanic, with nearly third-world divides between the wealthy at the top, a tiny middle-class, and throngs of the not-very-well-off.
Haven't been to Atlanta in quite a few years, so can't comment on it. People seem to either love it or hate it.
Hell, while you're at it Lake, add Naples Municipal in there too. Lets just cluster everything in one lil' area, and pretend it's all one city.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 20, 2011, 07:06:25 PM
Metro Miami has three international airports while Atlanta has one. When added up, how do they rank with Atlanta's?
still smaller, but only because Atlanta's airport is a transfer hub for many...just because I go through ATL on my way from JIA to BWI doesn't play that much role in the metro area's growth.
Nice article about Atlanta and home prices, from the AJC, 4/20/2011:
QuoteThe median sales price of a home in metro Atlanta dipped by $14,600 to just under $100,000 in March, according to new data from the National Association of Realtors.
“We’re back to almost 1997 levels,†said Steve Palm of housing data firm SmartNumbers. “It’s pretty bad and it’s not going to get better either.â€
The volume of home sales in the area also dipped -- by 6.5 percent compared to the same month a year ago -- according to the data released Wednesday.
Palm said getting the housing market in better shape hinges on the economy, which he believes has not turned the corner.
In a speech to the Atlanta Press Club on Wednesday, Gov. Nathan Deal said this of the housing market, “It is truly one of the most troubling parts of our economy.â€
It is a situation, he noted, that affects local governments more than the state, which gets a small percentage of the taxes paid by homeowners.
“What we have to do is create greater job opportunities,†Deal said.
QuoteQuoteYou know, Fortune 500 companies aren't everything. McDonalds is a Fortune 500 company. So is Wal-Mart. Detroit has two of 'em on the list and it's a shithole. Miami, and South Florida in general, has a ton of white-collar business, is a major international hub, and has more people than the Atlanta metro, to boot (and is much, MUCH denser.) just because Coca-Cola isn't underpaying people there doesn't remove it from the list.
F-500's aren't everything and DENSITY is? Hahahaha. Last time I checked, Hartsfield has more air traffic than Miami Int'l. MIA vs ATL business is still not that close, whether it's smaller white collar businesses, or F-500's. Mia has gotta have one of the biggest egos of any city in America. They seem to think that they have invented everything, but yet before Griselda Blanco started offin' all of those people in the eighties, MIA was basically Everglades swamp.
When we're talking about urban planning, development and so-on, yes, density is key. When you're talking about airport movements, ATL is the lobby, while MIA is the actual destination. More people fly through ATL without ever setting foot in ATL than any other airport. As for businesses, they're actually pretty evenly matched, with Atlanta taking the second tier of offices for multi-nationals and Miami taking the "Latin America" offices.
Apparently, a bad and monotonous color scheme (all hi-rises gotta be blue, and white) is the key to MIA's DT success. Can someone please name some of these so called 'oodles of successful companies' that are located in DT Miami? I still doubt if they come close to ATL's. I'll even go as far to say that in MIA, the office building to hotel/condo ratio in DT MIA is overwhelmingly dominated by the hotels/condos. Hell, I can portray Jax as some tourist mecca, but you gotta face reality at some point. MIA is nowhere in the same ballpark with ATL business-wise.
When are we going to see a story on the "Elements of Suburbanism".
Perhaps a colorful dissection of Argyle Forest? How about a pictorial on the Kernan Road bike path? No recollection of the new Alta Road/Yellow Bluff development build outs?
If Jacksonville doesn't have enough suburbanism, maybe we can check out Orange County, CA? DuPage County, IL or even that suburb of Crystal River (Dunnellon, FL)
::)
Some clarity here:
Atlanta as a metro is not dense at all. At all. Nobody can deny that. "In the Perimeter" (i.e.within 285) Atlanta can be quite dense. Granted 90% of Atlanta's business centers and a good chunk of its industrial centers are within 285, as well as quite a few single family home neighborhoods (one large area in particular called Buckhead has homes sitting on 3 acre lots), Atlanta still has swaths of population living 10,000+ people per square mile. Since 2007 alone when you left, Atlanta has added to an almost similar degree the same amount of units as downtown Miami/Brickell, just mostly in 5-7 floor buildings instead of empty 60 floor high rises.
Pricing wise, Atlanta's metro is cheap, like Jacksonville cheap. Atlanta city, however, is closer in price to Miami than Jacksonville. $950 for a luxury condo in Buckhead? I don't buy it. There's a one bedroom in Terminus 200 across from my office building (Terminus 100) going for $2,900. I pay $1,600 in the "Oakwood Apts" building in Midtown, which is the cheapest high rise in Midtown considering it's a condo conversion and an old 1989 building. Now I can see paying $950 for a studio in the The Concorde on Pharr Ct or in The Grandview on Lakeside Drive. Both are 1990 buildings with similar prices as mine. Heck, if you can purchase a condo in these buildings now is the time as they are cheap!
Business wise, Miami and Atlanta do compete. Atlanta has quite a higher metro GDP than Miami, but both are above $200B (Jacksonville's is around $50B). Miami is an international banking hub, but actually in a way so is Atlanta. Atlanta has the Intercontinental Exchange (the ICE, a stock market which is partnering with the NASDAQ to try to take over the NYSE). Miami has all of the international banks and Atlanta has small offices for a few, but Atlanta is a major player in domestic banks with huge offices for all of the major players (and nowadays major domestic banks are international players on so many levels, too).
Both Miami and Atlanta are dominators of big-hitting law firms. Miami and Atlanta can compete with New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and LA for law firms (and law firms in each city are anchor tenants to some of the best office towers).
Miami AND Atlanta are both major destinations. Miami has vacation tourism and second home markets for foreigners and the wealthy, and Atlanta is a major convention hub. Both cities play host to foreign businessmen who travel to each frequently enough to have a place there, and both cities play host to major events, athletic or otherwise. Atlanta has an "elite" market somewhat comparable to Miami's. Whereas Houston and Dallas have more companies and bigger business than either Miami or Atlanta, both Miami and Atlanta support far more luxury condos and hotels than either Dallas or Houston.
Frankly, I think there are more similarities between Atlanta and Miami than dissimilarities. Population/demographics/climate/history aside, both cities are sprouting up high rises and becoming hubs of companies and the rich (and celebrities) in a way that their peer cities in Texas are not. Texas has the oil money and the energy companies, and that's it. It's a pretty small, tight knit community unlikely to change drastically any time soon.
On an interesting note, Miami's office market is super tight. We all know that downtown/Brickell does not have a lot of office space for a city its size. Much of Miami's space is in Coral Gables or near the airport. Either way, Atlanta is overbuilt, by a lot. Atlanta can command $35/PSF rent in some of its towers, but averages $29 in Buckhead, $28 in Midtown, and only $20 in Dowtown. Miami on the other hand can approach $50/PSF in some of its newer towers in Downtown/Brickell. Miami averages $40-45/PSF for class A space in downtown/Brickell. It's one of the most expensive office markets in the country. On the flip side, there are some factors for renting in Miami that are cheaper than Atlanta, but base rent is not one of them (more expensive than Chicago for crying out loud).
And Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm are near each other, but are so not the same city in certain areas. Office space in Fort Lauderdale is pretty cheap for instance. Industries are different, everything is different except for climate.
And I just have to say it, but high rise architecture in Atlanta blows Miami's architecture out of the water, fair and square. And both Atlanta and Miami are overbuilt in the condo arena. You can purchase a "luxury" condo in Miami now for almost nothing, which is why so many buildings have gone from empty to at least half full within the past 6-8 months. Atlanta is in the same boat. If you want a condo in either city and you wait a year or 18 months to buy one, they'll be back to way way way unaffordable (condos in Atlanta that were asking $10-12M sold for half that price and there are 1 bedrooms in my cheap ass building renting for $1200/month but selling for $75-$150K...i.e. cheaper to buy).
This site not only has great pics, but also gives one an indepth look at Atlanta's condos:
http://www.atlantaskyriseblog.com/
And might I add that Miami and Atlanta can compete with each other in design. Both cities have some of the country's most reputable architectural firms, both cities have some of the country's most famous interior designers, and both cities have major design components.
Miami has all of those design districts, major fashion shows, and is a hub of major fashion, interior design, and even architecture.
Atlanta has ADAC, SCAD, major design firms, decently major fashion shows, and the huge downtown Merchandise Mart/Gift Mart/Apparel Mart.
You'll find trendsetters in either city. So basically, had to repute and agree with some points here, but I think there are far more similarities between each than dissimilarities. And I agree that each one can be considered the Sixth Borough (Miami cerca 1920s and Atlanta cerca 1980s). Emory, Tech, and UM are all full of yankees :D
Actually back to business, at my firm, we do a lot of business with South Florida investors. Almost all of our business comes from a few select places: New York, Miami, Chicago, Dallas, or Boston. Not much from the west coast, but a ton from either Miami or New York. Miami is definitely definitely a major business hub in this country. F500 hub it may not be, but it has tons of holding companies, and US headquarters for tons of Latin American and European banks/Life firms/businesses. It also has a lot of private equity groups. A lot. Lots of big developers, too. And I think I mentioned law firms earlier. Miami is a legal hub. Large law firms and high profile law firms that employ thousands and pay their most junion attorneys at least a quarter million bucks are typically in big business centers. They follow the money, i.e. big clients, i.e. super high wealth individuals and major firms.
In fact, if Jacksonville could attract more firms here, we could then attract more law firms and more high profile law firms (we have no high profile law firms in town), and these are the best office space tenants and could provide demand to fill our downtown office space and then some. Big law firms like brand new buildings that are very eco-friendly. For every major new trophy tower built in any major city is either a major financial institution anchor or a major law firm anchor. Hardly anything else unless for spec space.
I know I'm going to get this wrong but I'll give it a try but I think I heard this argument before.
Atlanta also has one major advantage that Jacksonville doesn't have. The full support of the State of Georgia. In Florida, all our state revenue is pretty much divided up between Miami, Ft Lauderdale, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, Pensacola, and the rest of this rather large state. Georgia really only has to divert money into two major cities - Atlanta & Savannah plus a few midsized cities.
If things keep declining here, I get this feeling our clout with the state budget is going to get smaller and smaller compared to areas like Miami & Orlando.
^That's a true argument.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 25, 2011, 02:14:45 AM
^That's a true argument.
OH NO THE HELL ITS NOT!!!! NOT AT ALL!
Atlanta is always fighting with Georgia....To be honest it seems Georgia would rather due without Atlanta.
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 25, 2011, 02:59:24 AM
Atlanta is always fighting with Georgia....To be honest it seems Georgia would rather due without Atlanta.
Water rights is a large issue between metro Atlanta and the Georgia. It's definitely not warm and fuzzy there.
Fighting or not, they still get a larger chunk of state funding than Jax gets from Florida.
Quote from: cityimrov on April 25, 2011, 02:06:43 AM
I know I'm going to get this wrong but I'll give it a try but I think I heard this argument before.
Atlanta also has one major advantage that Jacksonville doesn't have. The full support of the State of Georgia. In Florida, all our state revenue is pretty much divided up between Miami, Ft Lauderdale, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, Pensacola, and the rest of this rather large state. Georgia really only has to divert money into two major cities - Atlanta & Savannah plus a few midsized cities.
If things keep declining here, I get this feeling our clout with the state budget is going to get smaller and smaller compared to areas like Miami & Orlando.
actually this is somewhat true...the way things are set up in Georgia, roughly 50% of the money (and political power) goes to metro Atlanta...the other 50% goes to the rest of the state....which is part of the reason you can find unnecessary 4-lane highways throughout rural Georgia.
Quoteactually this is somewhat true...the way things are set up in Georgia, roughly 50% of the money (and political power) goes to metro Atlanta...the other 50% goes to the rest of the state....which is part of the reason you can find unnecessary 4-lane highways throughout rural Georgia.
Atlanta actually is a 40+ county area, which is almost 25% of the Georgia counties. It used to get the same amount of resources for only 3-5 counties, then the 80s, 90s, and 00s happened with explosive growth, which is still going on further and further out from the center. In a few years, who knows, Atlanta may annex Macon and get closer to that 50% of the counties in GA.
As for the unnecessary 4-lane highways, which ones are you referring to? There are many reasons for many of those, some political, some commercial.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 25, 2011, 08:10:13 AM
As for the unnecessary 4-lane highways, which ones are you referring to? There are many reasons for many of those, some political, some commercial.
mostly political...for example, try US 82 between Tifton and Waycross (I was on it yesterday)...while clearly this may be a decent truck route from the port of Brunswick, it is virtually empty....two lanes with an occasional passing lane would be plenty sufficient.
as to the power break between Atlanta and the rest of the state, metro area has about 5 million people...and the state as a whole has just over 10 million.
QuoteAnd I just have to say it, but high rise architecture in Atlanta blows Miami's architecture out of the water, fair and square.
Well, that's subjective. From wikipedia:
QuoteMiami's skyline is ranked third most impressive in the U.S., behind New York City and Chicago, and 19th in the world according to the Almanac of Architecture and Design.
But, I personally liked Atlanta's better as well, so to each their own.
As for my rent, entirely true. I nearly fell down over the price and wondered what was 'wrong.'
QuoteAtlanta also has one major advantage that Jacksonville doesn't have. The full support of the State of Georgia. In Florida, all our state revenue is pretty much divided up between Miami, Ft Lauderdale, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, Pensacola, and the rest of this rather large state. Georgia really only has to divert money into two major cities - Atlanta & Savannah plus a few midsized cities.
This is where the state/city relationship follows New York/NYC. And actually, in Florida, it's controversial how much state revenue flows out of South Florida without going back into South Florida. Tallahassee really wants Orlando to 'pop' and most of the $$$ goes there.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 25, 2011, 07:44:13 AM
Fighting or not, they still get a larger chunk of state funding than Jax gets from Florida.
Well yea, they are the ONLY really metro in the state. Florida has 4.
Quote from: spuwho on April 25, 2011, 07:20:14 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 25, 2011, 02:59:24 AM
Atlanta is always fighting with Georgia....To be honest it seems Georgia would rather due without Atlanta.
Water rights is a large issue between metro Atlanta and the Georgia. It's definitely not warm and fuzzy there.
Marta/Transportation founding, State Troopers vs Local LE, Governor vs Mayor Reed...man the things I read in Atlanta.
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 25, 2011, 01:51:20 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 25, 2011, 07:44:13 AM
Fighting or not, they still get a larger chunk of state funding than Jax gets from Florida.
Well yea, they are the ONLY really metro in the state. Florida has 4.
Exactly. Florida has one (Miami/FTL/WPB) metropolitan area larger than Atlanta's and six more (Tampa, Orlando, Jax, Sarasota, Cape Coral/Ft. Myers, Lakeland) larger than Georgia's second largest MSA (Augusta).
and the MIA/FTL/WPB area sometimes feels and behaves more like 2-3 metro areas....there are even different TV markets.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2011, 11:47:28 AMHowever, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities
Which is why I'm surprised you haven't covered Memphis yet.
Quote from: simms3 on April 14, 2011, 12:36:21 AMI also wouldn't compare Atlanta and Charlotte. It's hard to spot a building pre-1990 in Charlotte (the whole thing just popped out of the ground in the last few decades).
LOL, that's a bit extreme. From a skyline perspective I can see how one could say this, but not from the street level. At any rate, I think Charlotte and Atlanta often get mentioned in the same sentence due to the rapid urbanization that both cities are experiencing and the fact that they both put a very high premium on being business-oriented cities.
Quote from: cityimrov on April 25, 2011, 02:06:43 AMAtlanta also has one major advantage that Jacksonville doesn't have. The full support of the State of Georgia.
As a resident of metro Atlanta, I don't find this to be true at all. As a matter of fact, governors in Georgia can get elected based on how much hatred they spew about Atlanta. Hell, MARTA is the only mass transit system in the country to not receive state funding! Atlanta is what it is because of extremely progressive local civic and business leadership. The state of Georgia has almost NOTHING to do with it. As a matter of fact, it's pretty amazing how Atlanta has turned out without much help from the state over the years.
Quote from: krazeeboi on April 27, 2011, 08:19:22 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2011, 11:47:28 AMHowever, I'm an gritty urbanist at heart and tend to gravitate towards walkable waterfront and industrial cities
Which is why I'm surprised you haven't covered Memphis yet.
I visited Memphis about a year before I started the "Learning From" and "Elements of Urbanism" photo series. One of these days I'll get back out that way when the opportunity presents itself. However, if someone beats me there and gets pics, we can still run a story on it.
Quote from: krazeeboi on April 27, 2011, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on April 25, 2011, 02:06:43 AMAtlanta also has one major advantage that Jacksonville doesn't have. The full support of the State of Georgia.
As a resident of metro Atlanta, I don't find this to be true at all. As a matter of fact, governors in Georgia can get elected based on how much hatred they spew about Atlanta. Hell, MARTA is the only mass transit system in the country to not receive state funding! Atlanta is what it is because of extremely progressive local civic and business leadership. The state of Georgia has almost NOTHING to do with it. As a matter of fact, it's pretty amazing how Atlanta has turned out without much help from the state over the years.
After being in Atlanta for 3 years this is very true. Atlanta, USA has nothing to do with Georgia, or at least Georgia wants nothing to do with Atlanta, probably cause all the black people, homosexuals & transplants. Atlanta still needs a lot of work though. The main thing Atlanta has over Jacksonville is population count, which in my opinion is what brings stuff to a city. Which mayor canid wants Jacksonville to grow?
true...the biggest problem Atlanta has is that its in Georgia :)
^Couldn't have said it better. Atlanta is a New South city in an Old South state.
QuoteThe main thing Atlanta has over Jacksonville is population count, which in my opinion is what brings stuff to a city.
Don't forget that the population leads to constant work on the top end perimeter or I-285 in both directions. The moment they fix one area, they move to fix another and repave and repave and repave. During the ice and winter of this year, GA's road crews were top notch. They know how to maintain highways, just not City of Atlanta streets.
If more population brings more shopping at the risk of more traffic like their downtown connector, you can keep the shopping. 8)
QuoteThe main thing Atlanta has over Jacksonville is population count, which in my opinion is what brings stuff to a city.
To get that population count, the leaders of Atlanta did and do a lot of things that Jacksonville just doesn't. They make the metro area extremely friendly for business, so that corporate "citizens" will relocate there. They (and I'm not sure how they do this, really) simultaneously promote traditionalism and liberalism, so it's a great place to raise a family and a great place to get your gay on. They make it dirt cheap to live there and offer a lot of value in terms of entertainment and leisure to their populace. And they have an airport that for Atlantans, at least, means direct flights via Delta to basically everywhere.
This is all by design, by the collective will of a group of leaders, corporations and so on, to make Atlanta the powerhouse it is today. And it's growth has been astonishing. They gained nearly 1,000,000 people over the last decade. Now, whether or not they built a sustainable metro region is debatable (I'd say "no,") but they, along with Houston and Dallas, really jumped up the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas
Consider this: in 2000, you had the Top 1 and the following 2 (because NYC is so far and away ahead of the other two, and even LA is pretty far ahead of Chicago.) Then you have the 5-million club of Philly, Dallas and Miami, followed by the 4-million club of DC, Houston, Detroit, Boston, Atlanta, and San Fran.
Jump ahead a decade. You still have NYC/LA/Chicago primacy, but Dallas leaps ahead into the 6-million club, followed by Philly and Houston, both on the cusp at the top of the 5-million range. DC, Miami and Atlanta now have around 5.5 million people each, which means that while Miami "only" grew by 10% or 500,000 people...DC nearly added a million folks, and Atlanta easily added more than a million. That was intent made manifest.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on May 03, 2011, 01:12:48 PM
QuoteThe main thing Atlanta has over Jacksonville is population count, which in my opinion is what brings stuff to a city.
To get that population count, the leaders of Atlanta did and do a lot of things that Jacksonville just doesn't. They make the metro area extremely friendly for business, so that corporate "citizens" will relocate there. They (and I'm not sure how they do this, really) simultaneously promote traditionalism and liberalism, so it's a great place to raise a family and a great place to get your gay on. They make it dirt cheap to live there and offer a lot of value in terms of entertainment and leisure to their populace. And they have an airport that for Atlantans, at least, means direct flights via Delta to basically everywhere.
This is all by design, by the collective will of a group of leaders, corporations and so on, to make Atlanta the powerhouse it is today. And it's growth has been astonishing. They gained nearly 1,000,000 people over the last decade. Now, whether or not they built a sustainable metro region is debatable (I'd say "no,") but they, along with Houston and Dallas, really jumped up the list.
Possibly...Its the cause & effect that I have noticed. Its quite a few people in Jax that do not want others moving in.
The one thing I noticed when I lived in Atlanta is that I was rarely in Atlanta. I often was in Decatur, North Decatur, Smyrna, Alphretta, Stone Mountain, etc.