I wonder how many commercial real estate professionals really think this?
QuoteSome commercial real estate professionals have said the synergy of the Southside’s office parks and retail developments makes it a “replacement†Downtown.
The rest of the article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/04/08/cisco-consolidates-in-deerwood-south.html?ed=2011-04-08&s=article_du# (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/04/08/cisco-consolidates-in-deerwood-south.html?ed=2011-04-08&s=article_du#)
There are certainly some who have considered the Belfort area to be the "new" downtown of Jacksonville. I strongly disagree, but maybe this is how real estate professionals are marketing the area?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2011/03/11/southsides-synergy-competes-with.html
The city is big enough that it could use some urban "hubs" in different areas. Perhaps not a replacement downtown, exactly. Nothing urban about Southside office parks and SJTC, though.
It's not a replacement downtown. The word downtown implies foot traffic, activity, culture, and a certain ambience that is irreplaceable. The southside could double in size and downtown could remain stagnant, but the southside wouldn't be downtown unless it totally changed its development structure. Cruise ship office buildings and surface lots do not make something a downtown.
If the brokers want to say that the southside is 'replacing downtown as the center of employment in Jax', fine. Their lack of knowledge on anything planning related is maddening. It also doesn't do them any good to try and force people to the southside.
The southside development phenomenon is all about convenience and affordability. As it builds out and convenience starts to diminish and prices increase, there will no longer be ANY reason to go there. Downtown has prestige and other intangibles that you can't put a price on. As downtown develops and prices go up, it only causes more development to move in. Tell me, if your salary is a percentage based on the price of space you sell, which one makes more sense?? Downtown is a positive feedback loop that leads to a larger more successful environment. The southside is a negative feedback loop that ends in tears.
For proof, look at the BOA building in regency and tell me that it won't happen.
I agree. Our city is big enough to have different hubs that has a downtown feel, but theres no replacement for a downtown. If our downtown turned around, it would knock the southside off its feet.
QuoteThe development of the area near the St. Johns-Duval county line on Interstate 95 is reminiscent of the Butler area years ago, Hanson said. The County Road 210 corridor saw a spike in new housing activity last year.
His company is poised to take advantage of that potential with the Flagler Center, a 1 million-square-foot office and industrial park along I-95, behind Baptist Medical Center South.
“It’s a young, growing community center â€" it’s a similar story earlier in its life cycle,†Hanson said. “The point is, it takes all of those elements coming together to create that vibrancy and energy that generate success.â€
Read more: Southside's synergy competes with Downtown for business | Jacksonville Business Journal
SJTC and Southside's clock is ticking. If Bartram Park area does a town center developmnet and can land new national chains not found at SJTC, it'll be game on. If they land a Macy's or Neiman Marcus, it'll be game over.
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2011, 03:48:50 PM
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2011, 03:42:33 PM
I wonder how many commercial real estate professionals really think this?
QuoteSome commercial real estate professionals have said the synergy of the Southside’s office parks and retail developments makes it a “replacement†Downtown.
The rest of the article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/04/08/cisco-consolidates-in-deerwood-south.html?ed=2011-04-08&s=article_du# (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/04/08/cisco-consolidates-in-deerwood-south.html?ed=2011-04-08&s=article_du#)
This has been going on since the 80s, Ajax. And most of them privately and publicly think this same thing.
Of course, the absence of cultural offerings, government complexes, Higher Education and any real organic industry would make this area anything but a replacement downtown, but this is why it is dangerous to let real estate people call the shots for a municipality.
I love our real downtown but as to the things listed as missing I believe they are there. UNF, FCCJ, Alhambra, SJTC, Tinsel town, dense housing and multiple office parks. You can't call it urban because it is car centric. But some sort of HUB center with real "downtown" characteristics it is.
The problem is that "synergy" in an area that adheres to an auto oriented development pattern just results in traffic.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/483932475_yPec7-M.jpg)
This actually happened yesterday: I was talking to a client yesterday and talking about Riverside. "Oh really? Where's that? I've only lived here a few years!" She honestly had no idea where it was and had never heard of it because all she ever goes to is the Town Center. She couldn't even tell me where downtown is.
I want to puke when I hear someone say this. The southside will NEVER be Downtown! it has no vibe, history, charm, character, nothing! sure it has traffic and massive parking lots, big deal.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on April 08, 2011, 04:25:24 PM
This actually happened yesterday: I was talking to a client yesterday and talking about Riverside. "Oh really? Where's that? I've only lived here a few years!" She honestly had no idea where it was and had never heard of it because all she ever goes to is the Town Center. She couldn't even tell me where downtown is.
Everyone goes to Town Center. It's big, easy to find, and full of everything. That's why we're getting this problem:
QuoteThe problem is that "synergy" in an area that adheres to an auto oriented development pattern just results in traffic.
And very irritating and dangerous traffic at that!
^ Loki are you serious?? There are so many things wrong with that. If our downtown doesn't have the prominence to cause people to visit it, or at least know where it is, within their first few months of living in town, we have a problem.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 08, 2011, 04:41:13 PM
^ Loki are you serious?? There are so many things wrong with that. If our downtown doesn't have the prominence to cause people to visit it, or at least know where it is, within their first few months of living in town, we have a problem.
Some people don't explore outside of the immediate area where they live and work. Some think that a drive of over 4 miles is equitable to Columbus' fourth voyage to the new world.
I'm absolutely serious. You'd die if you knew the company.. but I'll never tell. I thought she was trolling.
Quote from: danem on April 08, 2011, 04:52:36 PM
Some people don't explore outside of the immediate area where they live and work.
A situation that is certainly compounded when you live in a city that is approximately six billion square miles.
I don't think anything will ever replace downtown, obviously. But I do think there is something to be said about the need for multiple urban centers throughout a city. I think the SJTC area can be the young professionals part of town that is fun and trendy, Buckhead in Atlanta comes to mind. As property prices increase and UNF grows I wouldn't be surprised to see high rise condos start to go up in that area in the next 5-10 years. Can you imagine the views from there?
Connect the two with public transport and you'll have a situation of collaboration. There is no reason to view the Southside as competition with Downtown. The fact of the matter is many of my young professional friends WANT to live in southside-esque neighborhoods with well known chains, movie theatres, and closer proximity to the beach, even if we had a stronger downtown. They like visiting downtown, riverside, etc., but don't want to live there. We need lots of different neighborhoods that attract all kinds. If people don't see the great asset that the Southside is to Jacksonville, they need to imagine this city without it. Whether you wanna live there or not, alot of people do.
The question should be how can we make them synergize?
Quote from: KenFSU on April 08, 2011, 05:58:44 PM
Quote from: danem on April 08, 2011, 04:52:36 PM
Some people don't explore outside of the immediate area where they live and work.
A situation that is certainly compounded when you live in a city that is approximately six billion square miles.
I met a woman who's lived in Jax her whole life (Southside) & never even heard of Memorial Park in Riverside. No shit. And she's young (late 20s).
What do these people do all day? Hang out at Target & fight gridlock traffic?? I'd slit my wrists.
When John Delaney was interviewing for the position of president of UNF I read that he made the argument that the "center" of the city was shifting and that UNF was in what would be considered in the years to come as the "new center" of the city. I think that this might have some validity with new development, but that does not mean that downtown needs to be "replaced." The idea that this city needs "ONE" area that people frequent is one of the problems we face as proponents of downtown development. There can be more than one entertainment district in the city. For goodness sake we have nearly 1.5 million people living here. Why can't there be entertainment downtown, at the beaches AND on the southside? Different events for different people OR simply a lot of options.
Best.
Quote from: Yossarianlives on April 08, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
When John Delaney was interviewing for the position of president of UNF I read that he made the argument that the "center" of the city was shifting and that UNF was in what would be considered in the years to come as the "new center" of the city. I think that this might have some validity with new development, but that does not mean that downtown needs to be "replaced." The idea that this city needs "ONE" area that people frequent is one of the problems we face as proponents of downtown development. There can be more than one entertainment district in the city. For goodness sake we have nearly 1.5 million people living here. Why can't there be entertainment downtown, at the beaches AND on the southside? Different events for different people OR simply a lot of options.
Best.
I've said in another thread that SJTC is only going to get so big and so popular before more centers of activity are needed. I think they're needed right now. I'm thinking maybe one that can rise up rather quickly -- where there are already buildings and infrastructure available...perhaps one that's next to some beautiful natural landmark...like a river or something. ::)
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2011, 07:07:39 PM
Quote from: Yossarianlives on April 08, 2011, 06:42:40 PM
When John Delaney was interviewing for the position of president of UNF I read that he made the argument that the "center" of the city was shifting and that UNF was in what would be considered in the years to come as the "new center" of the city. I think that this might have some validity with new development, but that does not mean that downtown needs to be "replaced." The idea that this city needs "ONE" area that people frequent is one of the problems we face as proponents of downtown development. There can be more than one entertainment district in the city. For goodness sake we have nearly 1.5 million people living here. Why can't there be entertainment downtown, at the beaches AND on the southside? Different events for different people OR simply a lot of options.
Best.
I think that when Delaney made those statements there was sound reason to believe in that paradigm.
He couldnt have foreseen the crash of the American economy, the ongoing effects of global warming, the revolutionary effects of web based communication, or 6 dollar a gallon gasoline.
Yossarian, its not a question of why we can't have multiple areas. We can. But they cant all be 20 to 30 minutes away from each other and surrounded by low density zones.
Its making us go broke.
Bingo! And we already have this infrastructure in place, so that's what we need to work with. It's there, it's more efficient & better connected.
We don't need any more development or a "new" downtown, that pipe dream's over. Just less restrictions on what we have & better programs to promote growth therein.
Quote from: fsujax on April 08, 2011, 04:28:10 PM
I want to puke when I hear someone say this. The southside will NEVER be Downtown! it has no vibe, history, charm, character, nothing! sure it has traffic and massive parking lots, big deal.
+1
QuoteCruise ship office buildings and oceanic surface lots do not make something a downtown.
I thought one more word would make this line poetic.
Only in Jax do we believe a place like the Southside can become a replacement DT. In reality, most metros our size have multiple suburban SJTC-style strips and still have vibrant DTs and inner city neighborhoods. The only thing holding Jax back is the people living in and leading it. Nevertheless, even if every business shut down in DT, there would be no replacement. We'd just be one large sprawler with a dead DT....sort of like Fayetteville, NC.
It's all about building permits...without a good hand on them....we're all screwed...
Whatever happened to JC?
:)
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2011, 10:02:54 PM
Quote from: buckethead on April 08, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
Whatever happened to JC?
The site is too conservative, apparently. Completely over run with Right Wingers.
Well I miss that poster. Quick witted and bright. Often disagreed, but that's what I like the most. I don't learn a thing from people I always agree with. (I don't know any like that anyway) :)
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2011, 10:02:54 PM
Quote from: buckethead on April 08, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
Whatever happened to JC?
The site is too conservative, apparently. Completely over run with Right Wingers.
It kinda is
but i read anyway...
I like the posters who think the site leans right. Especially those who could carry a debate with substance.
JC was (is) among those.