On first glance, I would say no to a new plan and vision. Then once, I thought about it for a couple of seconds, we really never had a coordinated overall plan and vision for the public realm or properties owned by the city. No long term plan of tying mass transit and adjacent neighborhoods with downtown or even a plan for the future uses and roles of our urban parks and publicly owned buildings. There has also been no thought to the negative impact of public policy on small business growth and survival. This is something that will be interesting to see debated.
QuoteTwo Downtown advocates who disagreed on some of the issues facing the city core did agree on at least two needs at a Thursday night forum.
Those were the need for a new Downtown master plan and, with an imaginary $20 million to spend on just one project, the need to invest such funds to develop Downtown entertainment.
“We need a new vision. We need a new master plan,†said Ed Burr, a developer, chair of the Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce Downtown Revitalization Committee and a member of the private Jacksonville Civic Council, which issued a task force report focused on Northbank redevelopment.
“We do need one now,†agreed Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. The Downtown Master Plan was approved by City Council in May 2000 and the Downtown Action Plan to implement it was created in 2007.
“We need to recalibrate,†said Barton. “We may have to even redefine what Downtown is.â€
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=533282
....here we go again!
The Neverending Story Part 3
For a very long time, downtown Jacksonville has lacked a realistic market analysis and a human-scale transportation plan. Maybe this plan will give us those two things.
Quote from: copperfiend on April 05, 2011, 10:52:40 AM
The Neverending Story Part 3
(http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/images/neverending-story-1.jpg)
-Josh
Quote from: copperfiend on April 05, 2011, 10:52:40 AM
The Neverending Story Part 3
So...straight to video then? ;)
How hard is this!!! First and foremost, there needs to be people living downtown. The problem with that isnt anything other than, there is nowhere for them to live. Lots of empty buildings, and no residents. You put residents downtown, the rest will start to fall into place. (and no, I do not mean higher end crapola places like Berkman. I mean affordable lofts, workforce housing, ect. I guarantee that in this area, you can find 10,000 people who are willing to live downtown. Lets GET them there!!!
Event based goals only provide temporary bumps in activity, and is little more than a gimmick to make a dead area seem alive.
In regards to downtown transportation, any major plan is probably untenable without a large residential population, and with a workforce dwindling, the number of people who care about downtown is dropping literally daily.
If you absolutely insist on focusing on transportation first (I think it should take more of a #1b, or #2 position), you are almost better focusing on the southside where the majority of our residents live, work, and play. At least then it has a chance of working.
QuoteThose were the need for a new Downtown master plan and, with an imaginary $20 million to spend on just one project, the need to invest such funds to develop Downtown entertainment.
That is a dangerous statement. We've all seen what happens while chasing the next big mega-project to save downtown. Just look at LaVilla, Shipyards property, Brooklyn, etc... This will get us nowhere even if the money were real. That 20 million would be better spent on a group of smaller projects in a concentrated area, perhaps to reconnect Springfield to the core. Reinvest in the Springfield parks and work towards helping buisnesses grow in the no man's land to fill the gap.
Quote from: Demosthenes on April 05, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
How hard is this!!! First and foremost, there needs to be people living downtown. The problem with that isnt anything other than, there is nowhere for them to live. Lots of empty buildings, and no residents. You put residents downtown, the rest will start to fall into place. (and no, I do not mean higher end crapola places like Berkman. I mean affordable lofts, workforce housing, ect. I guarantee that in this area, you can find 10,000 people who are willing to live downtown. Lets GET them there!!!
Lots of chickens and eggs talked about on this site. I agree people need to be there for anything to happen. A good question is where do you start for getting people to move downtown? When I look for a place to live, I want the essentials somewhere nearby: the grocery store, lots of places to eat out, and close to work. Is any of that in place? My perception is that it's not. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's not clear that it is.
Or maybe the cost of moving downtown needs to be discounted. Free rent for half a year? Who knows.
QuoteAsked where they would invest an imaginary $20 million for just one Downtown project, Barton and Burr agreed on entertainment, but Cloar disagreed.
Cloar, based in Washington, D.C., with experience in Downtowns in Tampa, St. Louis and Dallas, said he would put his $20 million windfall into residential development.
Count me in the 'residential' column.
There were plenty of residential projects proposed for DT a few years ago. The problem is the money dried up, and the demand (which was geared to high-end only, for the most part) was insufficient.
The answer will be, and can ONLY be, bring permanent residents into the core.
QuoteLots of chickens and eggs talked about on this site. I agree people need to be there for anything to happen. A good question is where do you start for getting people to move downtown?
A medium sized, mixed use, affordable, well executed project would address both the chicken and the egg and would get the ball rolling in the right direction. Projects like this are a dime a dozen in more progressive urban areas, but we have none in town. 100 units of residents, a ground floor grocer/market, and a ground floor fast casual eatery would be perfect for downtown.
The main problem right now is doing something like this in Jax is impossible for a number of reasons. One reason is that you'd need 30%+ in cash and 50%+ units sold prior to construction to ever get financing from a bank. In this city and this economic climate, that's impossible.
Is there a list or website somewhere that lists all of the downtown housing thats available? I have heard of a few places but I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.
I'm pretty sure I can name all of the housing options downtown (Northbank that is). The Berkman, Churchwell Lofts, 11 E. Forstyth, The Carling, W.A. Knight Lofts, Metropolitan Lofts, Parks at Cathedral, City Place (if you wanna count them). I think that's about it.
Quote from: danem on April 05, 2011, 11:58:06 AM
Or maybe the cost of moving downtown needs to be discounted. Free rent for half a year? Who knows.
This is what they are doing in downtown Detroit
QuoteEven floundering downtowns are attracting more young people. For example, Detroit, which has faced a 25 percent drop in its population since 2000, has added 59 percent (or 2,000) young and educated residents during that time, according to Impresa Inc., an economic consulting firm.
Looking to keep the young vibe going strong, Detroit even has recently launched a campaign â€" â€15 by 15†â€" to bring 15,000 young, educated professionals to live in the downtown by 2015. To do that, they are offering cash incentives: A $25,000 forgivable loan to buy a home in downtown and stay there for at least five years or $3,500 on a two-year lease.
Read more: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/130345/20110404/urban-areas-see-jump-in-young-buyers.htm#ixzz1IfQJA2r2
How about a temporary moratorium on multi-dwelling building permits until downtown has a 60% residency rates?
What pains me is that so many of these ideas are common sense. Yet we spend so much money on having people travel to do studies of other cities and hiring outside consultants and here we are years later stuck with the same results.
Quote from: comncense on April 05, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
What pains me is that so many of these ideas are common sense. Yet we spend so much money on having people travel to do studies of other cities and hiring outside consultants and here we are years later stuck with the same results.
Yes! Exactly! Why are they constantly spending money to learn things I could tell them as a periodic visitor from Virginia? And then they have the audacity to pretend to be fiscal conservatives.
Quote from: Garden guy on April 05, 2011, 12:44:43 PM
How about a temporary moratorium on multi-dwelling building permits until downtown has a 60% residency rates?
I'm not sure placing more restrictions on core development is the right way to go.
All living space is not created equally.
I do like the idea of allowing me to live directly over my downtown business, or even renting it out as apartment space, if I so desire.
Quote from: Garden guy on April 05, 2011, 12:44:43 PM
How about a temporary moratorium on multi-dwelling building permits until downtown has a 60% residency rates?
Seriously........???????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Currently we have high end apartments and high end condos. Until we supply a housing stock for all demographics, we won't have a thriving community. The wealthy people who are willing to take a chance on downtown already live there. Until we provide more services and conveniences to residents and increase QOL downtown, those buildings aren't going to fill up. The pioneers are here, we're now waiting on the second generation adopters to fill those buildings. There are thousands of other pioneers will to support downtown, but there is no residential stock that meets their needs. We need to build affordable housing if we're going to move the development process along.
Your plan would just make things official and turn DT into an actual moonscape.
http://walkercollaborative.com/publications-mainstreet.html (http://walkercollaborative.com/publications-mainstreet.html)
Check this out.
So you mean that it is going to take more than expensive, cobble stone round abouts and big courthouse to get people to return to downtown? There have been millions spent on plans and projects. I would like to know what is different about the next 'vision' that will not have the same results. There are buildings big enough for department stores, and the like, but when everyone would rather go the the St John's Town Center, it is tough. I visited Ireland and Scotland, and they certainly have great towns, that include the down town. I don't think they had the problem of the rush to the suburbs that we had.
Quote from: mbwright on April 05, 2011, 01:18:08 PM
I visited Ireland and Scotland, and they certainly have great towns, that include the down town. I don't think they had the problem of the rush to the suburbs that we had.
Ireland is having problems with overbuilding that are even worse that what we are facing in Florida. In Ireland and in downtown Jacksonville, we need to start planning and stop logrolling. That's what we would get from a realistic market analysis.
Any master plan along the general lines being discussed here would be another steaming bag of manure, designed to enrich a handful of people with pie-in-the-sky projects at taxpayer expense. There is no need for $20mm. You could make me (or most of the posters on this site, excepting a small handful) grand overlord czar supreme of downtown and give me the grand sum of $0.00 and downtown could be fixed. For free.
The problem is that wouldn't make the usual suspects any money. It's more profitable to continue the B.S.
Really, it's a short list:
1: Eliminate bullshit signage restrictions.
2: Eliminate bullshit zoning restrictions.
3: Eliminate paid parking and meters. (This would save money, parking enforcement costs more than the revenue it generates)
4: Open COJ-owned/run/financed garages to the public, for free, and stop subsidizing private garages. If garage and lot owners can't make it without having their hands in taxpayer pockets, too bad, they can go bust. That's how "business" is supposed to work. (This would also save money, there is very little garage revenue and the taxpayers subsidize these buffoons to the tune of millions annually, just buy them out or sue to terminate the contracts, knowing the parties involved they've all committed material breaches in one way or another by now anyway, shouldn't be hard).
5: Eliminate 1-way streets (except state and union).
6: Appoint a special office for downtown zoning and signage exceptions/business license applications/grant applications/etc., make it a one-stop shop for potential downtown businesses and institute a mandatory turnaround time for dealing with such requests.
7: Eliminate tax inequalities that make downtown unattractive compared to the suburbs, and create a limited-time (10 years) tax abatement program for any business wishing to relocate downtown. (Wouldn't cost any money, since everything is vacant already anyway).
8: Tell the police to stop directing traffic straight to I-95 during major events, or preferably at all. Let people spend time there, and let it develop its own flow.
9: Close the Prime-Osborne and reopen as a rail terminal. If JTA won't play ball, go around them directly to Amtrak.
10: The next time you have a med school, law school, etc. wanting to relocate there (if we're ever so lucky) don't try to gouge the hell out of them for a vacant piece of city-owned property that COJ got for free by demolishing a derelict building. Just play ball.
11: Demolition moratorium. Leave everything as-is. Doesn't matter how ugly it is. Vacant lots are worse.
There are a lot of other things that could be done, but this would be a start.
Quote from: mbwright on April 05, 2011, 01:18:08 PM
So you mean that it is going to take more than expensive, cobble stone round abouts and big courthouse to get people to return to downtown? There have been millions spent on plans and projects. I would like to know what is different about the next 'vision' that will not have the same results. There are buildings big enough for department stores, and the like, but when everyone would rather go the the St John's Town Center, it is tough. I visited Ireland and Scotland, and they certainly have great towns, that include the down town. I don't think they had the problem of the rush to the suburbs that we had.
If the folks working on downtown development play it off right with many of the common-sense suggestions mentioned elsewhere on this thread, many people (being fed up with the traffic, perhaps) will eventually flee SJTC area and find downtown a delightful place to visit or even live. SJTC isn't exactly going away, of course, but it can only get so big before other spaces will be needed.
One can dream, at least. ;D
How many buildings downtown, potentially could be converted to residential? I can think of a couple.. part of the Laura Trio, The Ambassador, The old JEA building, any others? As far as downtown Grocery Stores, The Winn-Dixie on Union is the only one I am aware of.. Is there another ?
Time for the MJ "Master Plan" for downtown :)
The best way for COJ/JEDC/Chamber of Commerce/Civic Council, et.al. to get something going DT and thereby provide some HOPE for better days, is to do everything in their collective powers to get the Laura Trio project off the drawing board and into reality.
It is in the heart of the Northbank core, would be a landmark historic preservation project, would add permanent residents as well as other uses, and the project itself is not controversial in any respect.
A plan is already in place, it just needs backing/financing, which is to say 'put money where mouth is'.
If the collect heft of that group can't accomplish it, then there really isn't much hope for a new master plan being anything other than yet another dust-collecting study.
QuoteThe best way for COJ/JEDC/Chamber of Commerce/Civic Council, et.al. to get something going DT and thereby provide some HOPE for better days, is to do everything in their collective powers to get the Laura Trio project off the drawing board and into reality.
Amen.
This would do wonders for the morale of downtown supporters and draw in thousands of people who otherwise keep to SJTC. I honestly don't give a flip about the SJTC crowd, but I am a downtown supporter and this would restore my faith that we can make downtown a success. Also, any time we can steal money from SJTC and give it to DT, I'm a fan. ;)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2011, 01:37:31 PM
Any master plan along the general lines being discussed here would be another steaming bag of manure, designed to enrich a handful of people with pie-in-the-sky projects at taxpayer expense. There is no need for $20mm. You could make me (or most of the posters on this site, excepting a small handful) grand overlord czar supreme of downtown and give me the grand sum of $0.00 and downtown could be fixed. For free.
dude...the $20 million thing was a question at the forum....that said, a program that provided financial incentives/rebates for people to move back into downtown (be it residential, office, or retail) would likely be very successful....just look at what they did in Philly and are doing in Detroit!
Lake when you get home tonight will you email them a master plan?
All they really need to do is think out what to ultimately due with publicly owned property (ex. roads, bikeways, transit, city owned buildings and lots). All the private sector really needs is regulation change that allows the free market and creativity to take over the development atmosphere.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2011, 01:37:31 PM
Any master plan along the general lines being discussed here would be another steaming bag of manure, designed to enrich a handful of people with pie-in-the-sky projects at taxpayer expense. There is no need for $20mm. You could make me (or most of the posters on this site, excepting a small handful) grand overlord czar supreme of downtown and give me the grand sum of $0.00 and downtown could be fixed. For free.
The problem is that wouldn't make the usual suspects any money. It's more profitable to continue the B.S.
Really, it's a short list:
1: Eliminate bullshit signage restrictions.
2: Eliminate bullshit zoning restrictions.
3: Eliminate paid parking and meters. (This would save money, parking enforcement costs more than the revenue it generates)
4: Open COJ-owned/run/financed garages to the public, for free, and stop subsidizing private garages. If garage and lot owners can't make it without having their hands in taxpayer pockets, too bad, they can go bust. That's how "business" is supposed to work. (This would also save money, there is very little garage revenue and the taxpayers subsidize these buffoons to the tune of millions annually, just buy them out or sue to terminate the contracts, knowing the parties involved they've all committed material breaches in one way or another by now anyway, shouldn't be hard).
5: Eliminate 1-way streets (except state and union).
6: Appoint a special office for downtown zoning and signage exceptions/business license applications/grant applications/etc., make it a one-stop shop for potential downtown businesses and institute a mandatory turnaround time for dealing with such requests.
7: Eliminate tax inequalities that make downtown unattractive compared to the suburbs, and create a limited-time (10 years) tax abatement program for any business wishing to relocate downtown. (Wouldn't cost any money, since everything is vacant already anyway).
8: Tell the police to stop directing traffic straight to I-95 during major events, or preferably at all. Let people spend time there, and let it develop its own flow.
9: Close the Prime-Osborne and reopen as a rail terminal. If JTA won't play ball, go around them directly to Amtrak.
10: The next time you have a med school, law school, etc. wanting to relocate there (if we're ever so lucky) don't try to gouge the hell out of them for a vacant piece of city-owned property that COJ got for free by demolishing a derelict building. Just play ball.
11: Demolition moratorium. Leave everything as-is. Doesn't matter how ugly it is. Vacant lots are worse.
There are a lot of other things that could be done, but this would be a start.
I like it !!!! Perhaps you should have run for Mayor or City Council :)
I saw somewhere on another thread, that the Laura st Trio project is supposed to begin in July. Is that still the plan, or will Hogan kill it?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 05, 2011, 02:38:20 PM
I honestly don't give a flip about the SJTC crowd, but I am a downtown supporter and this would restore my faith that we can make downtown a success. Also, any time we can steal money from SJTC and give it to DT, I'm a fan. ;)
seconded.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on April 05, 2011, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: comncense on April 05, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
What pains me is that so many of these ideas are common sense. Yet we spend so much money on having people travel to do studies of other cities and hiring outside consultants and here we are years later stuck with the same results.
Yes! Exactly! Why are they constantly spending money to learn things I could tell them as a periodic visitor from Virginia? And then they have the audacity to pretend to be fiscal conservatives.
So " Ready, Fire, Aim! " once again?
If you all want Jacksonville to stick with that approach, then there's a big courthouse building downtown that I would like to sell to you.
Id like to demolish that stupid Courthouse
You mean the Taj ma'payton? It looks hilarious from the highway...just seems a bit much for this small city...
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 03:15:32 PM
Meh. The flawed planning and the principles of development are themselves the issue.
Things work according to design. If you don't like the way that the downtown is working out, make no mistake. It is functioning perfectly to its design. Unfortunately the flaws create unintended outcomes. Those outcomes arent going to stop until you fix the flaws.
I believe that flawed design basically revolves around a complete lack of focus on the public realm and its integration with private land uses and the negative impact of public policies and regulations. You address these things and downtown (and the urban core for that matter) will be just fine.
Quote from: Timkin on April 05, 2011, 03:32:49 PM
Id like to demolish that stupid Courthouse
Me too. I cringe every time I drive by that thing.
It just sitting out there begging to be noticed in the middle of what was once a thriving neighborhood that they tore to shreds over nothing. That $400 Million could have done so many things for the city. But we get...a new courthouse. Woo wee! Was there something wrong with the old one? No.
It's whole presence is just really insulting.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 03:15:32 PM
Meh. The flawed planning and the principles of development are themselves the issue.
Things work according to design. If you don't like the way that the downtown is working out, make no mistake. It is functioning perfectly to its design. Unfortunately the flaws create unintended outcomes. Those outcomes arent going to stop until you fix the flaws.
I believe that flawed design basically revolves around a complete lack of focus on the public realm and its integration with private land uses and the negative impact of public policies and regulations. You address these things and downtown (and the urban core for that matter) will be just fine.
Well, hence my list. The problem is that most of the items on it are making the same small subset of well-connected people money, at all of our expense, and so they become hard to get rid of. Meanwhile, everyone clings to one pie-in-the-sky waste of money after another as the silver-bullet, because that's all you can get done. The political structure prevents anyone from addressing the actual problems, but they have no problem wasting money on things like a guaranteed-to-be-empty convention center, or a new $100mm headquarters for JTA in an area with a pre-existing glut of office vacancies, since the same group owns the land surrounding the site, supplies the cement and building materials, and/or will wind up with the construction contracts. Tammany Hall couldn't hold a candle to this place.
I know this isn't the "complain about the courthouse thread, but ...
I agree with PJS. What a waste.
You know there are lot of reality TV shows that featured some courtroom fights HERE in Jacksonville. I think the real reason why they want the bigger courthouse so we can have bigger courtroom fights to gain national publicity.
<sarcasm>Yeaaaa!! That's awesome!</sarcasm>
-Josh
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2011, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 03:15:32 PM
Meh. The flawed planning and the principles of development are themselves the issue.
Things work according to design. If you don't like the way that the downtown is working out, make no mistake. It is functioning perfectly to its design. Unfortunately the flaws create unintended outcomes. Those outcomes arent going to stop until you fix the flaws.
I believe that flawed design basically revolves around a complete lack of focus on the public realm and its integration with private land uses and the negative impact of public policies and regulations. You address these things and downtown (and the urban core for that matter) will be just fine.
Well, hence my list. The problem is that most of the items on it are making the same small subset of well-connected people money, at all of our expense, and so they become hard to get rid of. Meanwhile, everyone clings to one pie-in-the-sky waste of money after another as the silver-bullet, because that's all you can get done. The political structure prevents anyone from addressing the actual problems, but they have no problem wasting money on things like a guaranteed-to-be-empty convention center, or a new $100mm headquarters for JTA in an area with a pre-existing glut of office vacancies, since the same group owns the land, supplies the cement and materials, and/or will wind up with the construction contracts. Tammany Hall couldn't hold a candle to this place.
I think you're saying what the contributing members cannot. You're right on the money.
Quote from: wsansewjs on April 05, 2011, 03:52:40 PM
You know there are lot of reality TV shows that featured some courtroom fights HERE in Jacksonville. I think the real reason why they want the bigger courthouse so we can have bigger courtroom fights to gain national publicity.
<sarcasm>Yeaaaa!! That's awesome!</sarcasm>
-Josh
In any event, its HUGE, insulting and a bit much for what we really could have gotten away with.. another Prime and expensive example of someone's vision who was suffering from visions of Grandeur :/
This is what happens when little rich boys are allowed the purses of a city...should never have happened but knowing our city's voting record it probably will happen again very soon. The conservative leadership of this city has never really learned anything from it's past and the same families are doing the same thing as always so i have very little hope of actual change in the way of away from what we've been getting.
Well Garden Guy,, I hope purely for the good of the City and its people, that you are right on the first part, but wrong on the second.. I don't know either Brown or Hogan, but at this point, Since Audrey did not make it, I don't see that I have any choice but to vote for Alvin Brown, and hope ....H O P E that he will run the city as it should be run, and not line he and his cronies pockets while the city continues to crumble.
Quote from: Garden guy on April 05, 2011, 04:17:52 PM
This is what happens when little rich boys are allowed the purses of a city...should never have happened but knowing our city's voting record it probably will happen again very soon. The conservative leadership of this city has never really learned anything from it's past and the same families are doing the same thing as always so i have very little hope of actual change in the way of away from what we've been getting.
More like old rich boys who we're told we must respect, despite their actual track records on anything remotely related to urban planning being abysmal.
It raises the bar. Instead of people constructing buildings that look like they belong in a suburb â€" LaVilla School of the Arts, Barnett on West Bay, the Volunteers of America building at Jefferson and West Duval, Sikes & Stowe that's right next to the courthouse, et al. â€"people will feel more inclined to put up REAL buildings that belong in an urban core. Not every building needs a front yard with a driveway or street level parking spaces.
Could the 400 million clams have been used in a better way? Hell yeah. But guess what, Jax is stuck with a big courthouse, so learn stop worrying and love the bomb.
There's a lot of empty land around this courthouse, so it does stick out a little, but over the years that land will, hopefully, fill up with all kinds of new buildings. And instead of that area looking odd because there is this grand ol' courthouse, it'll look like a thriving business and government district.
Not everyone is going to agree on aesthetics, but you can't argue the fact that it's a big and impressive building. When someone who has never been to Jacksonville before sees it they'll no doubt say, "damn, this city doesn't mess around." My wife saw the new courthouse being constructed this last December when we were in town visiting my family. She was really impressed and was glad that it incorporated classic court house design in a contemporary building. This is coming from a woman who was born and raised in Moscow until she moved to Boston at 12 and has been living in NYC the last 13 years.
A lot of people hate the new Cooper Union building because they don't like the way it looks:
(http://joellelifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/all/MI-AX509_COOPER_G_20090629181829.jpg)
but people have to get used to it because it's going to be there for a long time.
Instead of being upset about a building, especially a building that is finally being completed in downtown Jax opposed to proposed buildings that never go anywhere, everyone should say, "OK, that's that, so now where do we go?" Keep on truckin' and doing what you can to improve the city. I've always thought the Landing was ass ugly, but I don't want it to be torn down. I think most of the First Baptist buildings are scary and unwelcoming, but I don't want them to be torn down.
Does anyone know what tracts of land the city owns, and what land is privately owned?
Any more word on the land between the Hyatt and the Berkman parking garage and the the use of the old courthouse?
Quote from: cgaskins on April 05, 2011, 04:28:45 PM
It raises the bar. Instead of people constructing buildings that look like they belong in a suburb — LaVilla School of the Arts, Barnett on West Bay, the Volunteers of America building at Jefferson and West Duval, Sikes & Stowe that's right next to the courthouse, et al. —people will feel more inclined to put up REAL buildings that belong in an urban core. Not every building needs a front yard with a driveway or street level parking spaces.
Could the 400 million clams have been used in a better way? Hell yeah. But guess what, Jax is stuck with a big courthouse, so learn stop worrying and love the bomb.
There's a lot of empty land around this courthouse, so it does stick out a little, but over the years that land will, hopefully, fill up with all kinds of new buildings. And instead of that area looking odd because there is this grand ol' courthouse, it'll look like a thriving business and government district.
Not everyone is going to agree on aesthetics, but you can't argue the fact that it's a big and impressive building. When someone who has never been to Jacksonville before sees it they'll no doubt say, "damn, this city doesn't mess around." My wife saw the new courthouse being constructed this last December when we were in town visiting my family. She was really impressed and was glad that it incorporated classic court house design in a contemporary building. This is coming from a woman who was born and raised in Moscow until she moved to Boston at 12 and has been living in NYC the last 13 years.
A lot of people hate the new Cooper Union building because they don't like the way it looks:
(http://joellelifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/all/MI-AX509_COOPER_G_20090629181829.jpg)
but people have to get used to it because it's going to be there for a long time.
Instead of being upset about a building, especially a building that is finally being completed in downtown Jax opposed to proposed buildings that never go anywhere, everyone should say, "OK, that's that, so now where do we go?" Keep on truckin' and doing what you can to improve the city. I've always thought the Landing was ass ugly, but I don't want it to be torn down. I think most of the First Baptist buildings are scary and unwelcoming, but I don't want them to be torn down.
Does anyone know what tracts of land the city owns, and what land is privately owned?
Any more word on the land between the Hyatt and the Berkman parking garage and the the use of the old courthouse?
Actually it lowers the bar, unless square footage is your only point of consideration.
I personally value quality of construction more than size, and that is sorely lacking in our courthouse.
True. It should have been built vertically, not horizontally, but like I said before, what's done is done.
Hopefully this will spark interest for people to construct new buildings on the empt land around it. It also frees up the land the old courthouse was taking up so close to the river. That block should have hotel, residential, shopping, restaurants, bars. Not a government building.
I was never for that frigging ugly monstrosity.. but its there. I guess I have to accept it. ..Hopefully another good ol boy wont come in to office and say .. No No .. it needs to be rebuilt VERTICALLY on the Riverfront.... I know it probably wont happen , but cmon.. Did we REALLY REALLY need that ? Vertical or Horizontal, or Below Ground. NO we did not. not at all. Lots of other issues should have been addressed. We are going to have a State-of -the -art Taj Mahal in a Ghosttown of a downtown. If that is sensible, please break it down to me, because I DO NOT GET IT.
I agree that there was no need to build it. There are tons of better uses for the money that was used.
Quote from: Timkin on April 05, 2011, 04:51:59 PM
I was never for that frigging ugly monstrosity.. but its there. I guess I have to accept it. ..Hopefully another good ol boy wont come in to office and say .. No No .. it needs to be rebuilt VERTICALLY on the Riverfront.... I know it probably wont happen , but cmon.. Did we REALLY REALLY need that ? Vertical or Horizontal, or Below Ground. NO we did not. not at all. Lots of other issues should have been addressed. We are going to have a State-of -the -art Taj Mahal in a Ghosttown of a downtown. If that is sensible, please break it down to me, because I DO NOT GET IT.
When life gives you a courthouse, make courthouse-ade! Hopefully they'll keep an nice looking public space there instead of rebuilding that street in such a silly manner as illustrated in that one Monroe street article, and it will become a popular landpark and public square in the future. If this was a Sim City game I'd suggest adding the DARK green and blue zoning tiles all around it, and see what happens. :D ;D
I pray for sensible leadership in Jacksonville.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 05, 2011, 02:56:47 PM
Lake when you get home tonight will you email them a master plan?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
All they really need to do is think out what to ultimately due with publicly owned property (ex. roads, bikeways, transit, city owned buildings and lots). All the private sector really needs is regulation change that allows the free market and creativity to take over the development atmosphere.
Listen I get that to you is just a ... but to the people who have been trying to make plans in this city for so long clearly it is rocket science on steroids. So do me a favor send them a plan. Trust me you are way more qualified than the mysterious "them". I think the people who read this site would agree.
Can I get an AMEN on that ! ;)
-Destroying Lavilla: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Destroying the streetcar network: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Building the Skyway to nowhere instead of viable light rail: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Tearing down over 25% of the historic housing in Springfield: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Downtown's awful policies for new businesses: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Lack of vision & uncontrolled sprawl until we've become the largest land mass is the US with a half empty core: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
So yeah, in case you're wondering, I'm not really behind the "what's done is done" motto. Too much of that is why we're in such deep shit. It's a lazy attitude. Best to probably prevent these things from happening in the first place, don't ya think??
I know your right Stephen and I know this site is basically submitting ideas to the powers that be all the time. I bet however if Lake proposed a master plan it would be a good one.
Quote from: danem on April 05, 2011, 11:58:06 AM
Quote from: Demosthenes on April 05, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
How hard is this!!! First and foremost, there needs to be people living downtown. The problem with that isnt anything other than, there is nowhere for them to live. Lots of empty buildings, and no residents. You put residents downtown, the rest will start to fall into place. (and no, I do not mean higher end crapola places like Berkman. I mean affordable lofts, workforce housing, ect. I guarantee that in this area, you can find 10,000 people who are willing to live downtown. Lets GET them there!!!
Lots of chickens and eggs talked about on this site. I agree people need to be there for anything to happen. A good question is where do you start for getting people to move downtown? When I look for a place to live, I want the essentials somewhere nearby: the grocery store, lots of places to eat out, and close to work. Is any of that in place? My perception is that it's not. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's not clear that it is.
Or maybe the cost of moving downtown needs to be discounted. Free rent for half a year? Who knows.
I firmly believe that there are 10,000 people who would move downtown right now. Some because they are advocates, some because they want access to the bus, some because they just want a place to live, and would live there if there were places.
It may not be 10,000 high earners, or 10,000 yuppies. Just 10,000 residents.
Once you have the people, everything else will fall in place. You have a voting block, you have advocacy, you have a voice that will call for the very things you guys are all asking for.
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
Our group would be a better structure for handling the long range planning of the downtown, if only because of the knowledge that we have gained from actually studying the process and effects of planning in the downtowns over the last century.
I'm going to add one of my more astute comments to the forum today. The reason that your group would be better suited to handle ANY planning of downtown is because you have the goal of creating a vibrant downtown for future gains and not setting policy for any immediate gain - as is status quo.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 05, 2011, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
Our group would be a better structure for handling the long range planning of the downtown, if only because of the knowledge that we have gained from actually studying the process and effects of planning in the downtowns over the last century.
I'm going to add one of my more astute comments to the forum today. The reason that your group would be better suited to handle ANY planning of downtown is because you have the goal of creating a vibrant downtown for future gains and not setting policy for any immediate gain (for a select few real estate pimps) - as is status quo.
Fixed
Quote from: Demosthenes on April 05, 2011, 05:28:07 PM
Quote from: danem on April 05, 2011, 11:58:06 AM
Quote from: Demosthenes on April 05, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
How hard is this!!! First and foremost, there needs to be people living downtown. The problem with that isnt anything other than, there is nowhere for them to live. Lots of empty buildings, and no residents. You put residents downtown, the rest will start to fall into place. (and no, I do not mean higher end crapola places like Berkman. I mean affordable lofts, workforce housing, ect. I guarantee that in this area, you can find 10,000 people who are willing to live downtown. Lets GET them there!!!
Lots of chickens and eggs talked about on this site. I agree people need to be there for anything to happen. A good question is where do you start for getting people to move downtown? When I look for a place to live, I want the essentials somewhere nearby: the grocery store, lots of places to eat out, and close to work. Is any of that in place? My perception is that it's not. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's not clear that it is.
Or maybe the cost of moving downtown needs to be discounted. Free rent for half a year? Who knows.
I firmly believe that there are 10,000 people who would move downtown right now. Some because they are advocates, some because they want access to the bus, some because they just want a place to live, and would live there if there were places.
It may not be 10,000 high earners, or 10,000 yuppies. Just 10,000 residents.
Once you have the people, everything else will fall in place. You have a voting block, you have advocacy, you have a voice that will call for the very things you guys are all asking for.
;D I completely agree with everything you said. I didn't really think about it like that but that is 100% correct.
I think we (MJ as a group and its members) could work together to contribute to and make a feasible Downtown Master Plan that would not only work.... it would blow out of the water everything that has surfaced since the 1970s "Master Plan"
But I think it all begins with finding a way to populate the downtown area, and giving them the vital needs (Grocery Stores, Clothing, Housewares , Etc) within a reasonable distance.. Add to that a working transit system, and I honestly believe the rest would follow suit.
I like my idea of appointing myswlf downtown pimp master supreme better.
;)
Quote from: peestandingup on April 05, 2011, 05:15:47 PM
-Destroying Lavilla: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Destroying the streetcar network: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Building the Skyway to nowhere instead of viable light rail: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Tearing down over 25% of the historic housing in Springfield: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Downtown's awful policies for new businesses: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Lack of vision & uncontrolled sprawl until we've become the largest land mass is the US with a half empty core: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
So yeah, in case you're wondering, I'm not really behind the "what's done is done" motto. Too much of that is why we're in such deep shit. It's a lazy attitude. Best to probably prevent these things from happening in the first place, don't ya think??
That isn't what I was saying. I was saying to get the sand out of your vagina and move on.
Stay positive and work forward instead of dwelling on something that has already happened. That's what I meant by "what's done is done."
What's that thing about milk our parents said?
Complaining about a courthouse being built isn't going to solve any problems or move the city forward.
I wasn't saying we should always say "fuck it" and just deal with what's going on. "Oh, they built a rape factory in LaVilla? What's done is done..." No, you can't apply it to everything. I was just trying to put an end to all of the angry people on this forum that have to hate on the big ass courthouse. There are more important things to worry about. Like bringing back streetcars, rebuilding LaVilla, using the SkyWay to connect other parts of the city to the core through other forms of transit, maintaining the historic importance and improving Springfield, improving downtown's policies on new business, and working with the cities leaders to give better vision so that we don't continue the sprawl and actually build up the core.
So yeah, if you want to complain about a courthouse for 40 more years and get nothing done because some dudes in the past made some bad choices, then be my guest. I was simply trying to say...
THE BUILDING IS THERE! IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD! THERE ARE OTHER THINGS TO WORK ON!
So all of the bullshit you just said has NOTHING to do with what I was saying.
Talking about what the building should have looked like, if it should have been built at all, or discussing where the money should have been spent is pointless. It's over. That's the point I was trying to make.
This is the opposite of a lazy attitude, Mr Pee. It's a pretty productive one. Learn from history, don't dwell on it.
I think pointing out the design flaws with the courthouse is something we should continue to keep in focus. It serves to help us not make the same mistakes in the future. It is also a great teaching tool to newbies on the site. It helps us to illustrate to people who think downtown is always a waste of money that we can learn from our mistakes. Pointing out who made the decisions and who influenced them serves to help people understand they have to engage if they do not want the GOB network to have all the say.
History even local and recent is important.
Quote from: stephendare on April 05, 2011, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on April 05, 2011, 05:15:47 PM
-Destroying Lavilla: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Destroying the streetcar network: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
-Building the Skyway to nowhere instead of viable light rail: Hey, what's done is done. Let's move on!
So yeah, in case you're wondering, I'm not really behind the "what's done is done" motto. Too much of that is why we're in such deep shit. It's a lazy attitude. Best to probably prevent these things from happening in the first place, don't ya think??
Totally agree here.
" Wanna buy a duck?
A what?
A duck!
Does it quack?
Of course it quacks, it’s a duck!"
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5593586597_574311ce1e.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2054/2063566145_33f8004c74.jpg)
Taking out the Atlantic and East Coast Terminal Railroad Station in La Villa along with everything else....
...and here's where it gets tricky...
"Building 15% of a Skyway, then going to 25% with monorail, then walking away wringing our hands because it doesn't work..." ...and some people want to even tear THAT down!
Hey but cut us some slack, the streetcar system was taken care of by GENERAL MOTORS with the same ploy they used everywhere, local ownership, better service, NEW replaces OLD, and do it with ASSURED LOWER FARES...which BTW...NEVER HAPPENED, but best of all "FAIR DEALINGS WITH THE CITY!" HA!!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Timkin on April 05, 2011, 05:02:07 PM
I pray for sensible leadership in Jacksonville.
This is not something our city is noted for...
Except that's exactly what the entire FBC is doing, it's just that their sensibilities are a little different than ours.
QuoteWe would be the best group to steer the process, but real comprehensive planning that would create a sustainable, dynamic city would be a larger group effort at best.
Uh, yeah sure. Check the history books, what is the last major transportation item to hit Jacksonville? Down with the tolls in the late 80s? New Fuller Warren bridge a few years ago? 9A? The most major item to hit Jacksonville was probably the Jaguars in the mid 90s.
I'll bet you that in 15 more years, we'll have a new 1-95 over the San Diego Road overpass, 9A will have merged to 295, the 9B will have been built, but there will still be no light rail and no comprehensive plan. Planning stands still in Jacksonville.
Hope that you are wrong on the light rail and comprehensive planning.
QuoteHope that you are wrong on the light rail and comprehensive planning.
Well just keep dreaming on that note, and that someone will take up Annie Lytle before more boards are kicked off and people from the ground and interstate see it for what it really is, an eyesore that is in rescue by Burkhalter's.
M-train.... your words are garbage.. you cannot hurt my feelings.. If Annie Lytle ends up in a landfill , so be it.. You won.
Lets just say that your all-knowing Messiah-like input is not agreed upon by most in the discussion..Not that you care... all that matters is M-train's opinion ,by you. :)
Cheers
Quoteyour words are garbage
Right back at ya! ;D
LOL