What started as a whimsical joke among a few people at April's First Friday has been echoing around places personal, professional, and political: Springfield (and to a somewhat lesser extent, Riverside & Avondale) are major pockets of voters in the past primary and earlier elections ... contrary to the 70% malaise that affected the majority of Jacksonville voters. We talked about whether it would be possible for Springfield to legally "secede" from the city of Jacksonville and become a separate, self-governing municipality (much like the beaches), partnering with the County for essential services. Frankly, I fear living here under the presumed new mayor. But if Springfield could take a stand as an incorporated city, I suspect that many people seeking the kind of eclectic, eccentric, community-minded spirit and friendly neighborhood that we have might be tempted to move here and reinvigorate our own business corridor, as well as dwellings. Am I stupid, naive, or just totally off base with a question about whether Springfield can become a self-standing, incorporated city apart from Jacksonville?
(http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/46447/2836867060104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
I am not a huge fan of consolidation in terms of the effect our downtown and urban neighborhoods....just look at how the council districts are laid out in pie shaped wedges.
That said my guess is that opportunities to set up your own govt much like the beaches have probably passed. Articles of consolidation often require groups to reserve that action at the time of consolidation so unless someone in the Springfield area took that step decades ago it is probably a nonstarter.
Our best home now is to look at how the council districts will be redesigned this yr and try to get districts that make sense. In terms of zoning, codes, etc. Riverside Avondale has virtually nothing in common w/ Argyle but we share a councilman.
There are big fiscal challenges to doing this, and a police and fire agreement would most certainly have to remain in place (like Baldwin), and tax dollars would still have to be contributed to the county for schools, but the idea of self governing is an interesting one. According to the census, Springfield has a little over 3600 residents. How many of them would support this kind of move.
I agree with outofhere.
Redistricting is inevitable and secession is next to impossible.
If we focus on redistricting we could really do ourselves some good.
The only way something like this happens is deconsolidation (if couldn't just be Springfield, it would probably take the pre-1968 city). This would not be good. Jacksonville would seriously have the economic power of Detroit if that were to occur. See the MJ feature form Thursday.
Too funny. I think we are mostly too independent for self-government. And too close to each other. Friends governing friends? Recipe for disaster.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on April 03, 2011, 05:52:04 PM
Too funny. I think we are mostly too independent for self-government. And too close to each other. Friends governing friends? Recipe for disaster.
Yeah, it wouldn't be good. Historic Spr is pretty small to be it's own city, so you'd have to include New Spr as well. A good idea, but I know a lot of people in HS probably wouldn't want to do that. But then NS has a lot of people who probably live well below the poverty line (even HS has quite a few), so that would mean Jax would no longer be caring for these people with services & such. You would.
I agree with the theory & some of it makes sense (Lord knows Jax isn't doing ya'll any favors), but it would have a lot of problems too.
What I'm tying to say is, um, could I be Mayor? ;D Nah, I actually think Stephen would make a better one.
Several folks mentioned the same idea at Audrey's campaign party...but I think that was just emotions talking....at the end of the day, I think most will agree that consolidation has more benefits for Jacksonville than drawbacks.
There's just GOT to be an alternative to you-know-who and you-know-what. We didn't move from Florida to Wisconsin and now to Springfield, JAX, Florida, to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Literally and figuratively! :o
I like the idea of deconsolidation. I'm tired of hearing people say they live on the Northside or Southside. I would like to hear Highlands or Sandalwood. It sounds nicer. ;D
In interesting idea. One that could be used to further the entire Urban core but not by actually doing it. I agree with some of the others who have posted that it would not work nor would it really be possible. But there is a way to use the idea.
Years ago in Annapolis. MD, they took out the lift bridge to rebuild it so that you then had to literally go around that proverbial Robinhood's barn to get to East Port. In "protest", they seceded from Annapolis. Had elections of sorts, made up new banners and flags and generally had a lot fun with the idea. Of course, this was all done for the sake of marketing the businesses and such for that year plus the lift bridge was gone.
The same idea could be used to make a statement about the lack of leadership who has a clue about the urban core within the city and the side benefit would be that it would be great marketing for Springfield. Done right, it could get national exposure and so make us a political force within the city. Someone that should be listened to and so we could end up with what we, as an urban core area, needed regardless of who is Mayor. We would just have to be all inclusive so that we had the vast majority behind it. We have a few who ran for office that could be the leaders for this type of event and bring enough people together to make it work.
Seriously?
I doubt the city would fight Springfield's attempt to Secede. I believe they would whisper "thank God."
I doubt this could be done without a civil war.
It is an interesting subject to discuss though. Maybe metrojacksonville could do an article on the pros and cons?
Wasn't most of Springfield a part of the preconsolidated city limits anyways? That would be like lopping a chunk off of the true Jacksonville, not just some outlying burb.
I can imagine the battle for Springfield begins where you have the marching army of the citizens with the band playing the '1812 Overture' while the city council and Mayor stands firmly on the battlefield prior to the entrance of Springfield.
God Save The Springfield! STAY CALM AND PROTEST!
-Josh
Instead of kidding around about secession, let's get serious about redistricting. It's coming up very soon.
I would really like to see Springfield and Downtown put into the same district.
Quote from: fsujax on April 04, 2011, 09:42:13 AM
I would really like to see Springfield and Downtown put into the same district.
I agree that Downtown & Uptown need to coexist with each other. And if possible, I'd include everything from the MLK Parkway down to the river.
Although downtown is a whole nother can of worms these days & it would prob be much easier to just do Springfield (both historic & new).
Key West seceded formed the Conch Republic and declared war on the U.S.. They immediately surrendered and filed for Federal Aid to recover from the war. Perhaps Springfield could do that to fund Skyway expansion into the neighborhood.
How about the entire Urban Core seceding from Jacksonville. I can see the headlines
"Downtown Jacksonville secedes from...Jacksonville!"
followed by
"Audrey for Mayor"
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
No worries. The new Jax will simply remove property tax exemptions for religious institutions. :o ;)
And thus, you are again reduced to a small minority of voters. The majority of this city, and this country, are church goers.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
actually the tax base of preconsolidation jax isn't too bad...includes Springfield, san Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and part of Ortega.
Quote from: mySpringfield on April 04, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
No worries. The new Jax will simply remove property tax exemptions for religious institutions. :o ;)
can't do that unless you secede from Florida...it is a state law!
Just get over the whole chuch, religion thing! enough already. I am so sick of it popping up in every freaking thread.
Quote from: tufsu1
actually the tax base of preconsolidation jax isn't too bad...includes Springfield, san Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and part of Ortega.
/quote]
Indeed.And core population centers of that era-Baldwin,Beaches opted out of Consolidation.Although the total land area of the new "City" was huge,most of the area was unpopulated.
During last yera's Mullaney MJ posts,I became curious as to the historical effort to Consolidate.I was actually hunting for brilliance because little substantive value arguments were commng forth from Mullaney,and the lack of a similar repeats nationwide telling.
So I chatted with a key player in the 60's Consolidation movement and implementation as to the brilliance,leadership .I only learned of 'committees'.
Turns out County wide consolidation efforts,referendum stem as far back as the 1920's (T.Stockton in the Legislature).
oh. ok...that makes sense
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2011, 03:01:10 PM
Quote from: wsansewjs on April 04, 2011, 02:12:06 PM
Having a large religion-based portion of the Jacksonville's voting populations would go against the idea of separation of church and state in the first place. It is like drinking your own piss.
-Josh
huh? one's religious beliefs do not have to do with voting and governing...I can keep them separate just fine and I'm sure others can as well
I never said religious beliefs. I said
religion-based institution. When a large institution has a large influence on its people, it tends to trickles down to the government-level where the decisions are made to support THAT institution indirectly.
I mean FBC is fine, but look at how fast and big they have grown into the Downtown core.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: wsansewjs on April 04, 2011, 02:12:06 PM
Having a large religion-based portion of the Jacksonville's voting populations would go against the idea of separation of church and state in the first place. It is like drinking your own piss.
-Josh
??? I am not clear on what you are trying to say...it seems that taxing religious institutions would mix church and state.
What I meant to say that the religious institutions are trying to influence or push the government to change the rules or procedures that would protect or favor them.
-Josh
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: wsansewjs on April 04, 2011, 02:12:06 PM
Having a large religion-based portion of the Jacksonville's voting populations would go against the idea of separation of church and state in the first place. It is like drinking your own piss.
-Josh
??? I am not clear on what you are trying to say...it seems that taxing religious institutions would mix church and state.
Its already mixed, just not on paper.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2011, 03:05:03 PM
oh. ok...that makes sense
Under current law, churches are (supposedly) not allowed to be politically active and the state can not tax churches...thus, a separation of church and state.
Quote from: peestandingup on April 04, 2011, 03:16:56 PM
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: wsansewjs on April 04, 2011, 02:12:06 PM
Having a large religion-based portion of the Jacksonville's voting populations would go against the idea of separation of church and state in the first place. It is like drinking your own piss.
-Josh
??? I am not clear on what you are trying to say...it seems that taxing religious institutions would mix church and state.
Its already mixed, just not on paper.
If your looking for perfect...
It is done as well here as I have seen.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 03:19:14 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2011, 03:05:03 PM
oh. ok...that makes sense
Under current law, churches are (supposedly) not allowed to be politically active and the state can not tax churches...thus, a separation of church and state.
So much for the consolidation state of Jacksonville.-Josh
??? That makes no sense either Josh.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2011, 01:35:06 PM
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
actually the tax base of preconsolidation jax isn't too bad...includes Springfield, san Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and part of Ortega.
A preconsolidated jax would include a chunk of Jaxport, several Northside and Westside manufacturing plants, private port terminals, several railyards and downtown in a very compact area. Like Tufsu1 has stated, that's not a bad thing as far as a core area of 31 or 32 square miles goes. On the other hand, the rest of the city would be pretty screwed. There are a lot of service oriented corridors, the Southside office parks and some isolated industries but the amount of ground to cover and spread public resources would still be over 700 square miles.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 03:49:29 PM
??? That makes no sense either Josh.
I was being sarcastic. :)
-Josh
Quote from: thelakelander on April 04, 2011, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2011, 01:35:06 PM
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
::)
Might want to check your tax base.
Concentrate on redistricting.
Consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to this city.
actually the tax base of preconsolidation jax isn't too bad...includes Springfield, san Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and part of Ortega.
A preconsolidated jax would include a chunk of Jaxport, several Northside and Westside manufacturing plants, private port terminals, several railyards and downtown in a very compact area. Like Tufsu1 has stated, that's not a bad thing as far as a core area of 31 or 32 square miles goes. On the other hand, the rest of the city would be pretty screwed. There are a lot of service oriented corridors, the Southside office parks and some isolated industries but the amount of ground to cover and spread public resources would still be over 700 square miles.
They weren't talking about preconsolidated city limits, they were talking Springfield. You would still pay county taxes, Duval school taxes, and use JEA services. You would just have to add on a new municiple tax to pay Audrey and all of the other jobs you might want to create.
I'll say it again, consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to Jax. We just need to hold our local government responsible.
Quote from: fsujax on April 04, 2011, 01:44:28 PM
Just get over the whole chuch, religion thing! enough already. I am so sick of it popping up in every freaking thread.
I was wondering how long it would take.
As I suggested: "Let's secede!" Or let's, at least, make a lot of noise and publicity in the process.
As regards the separation of church vs. state, while we may be relative newcomers here, it didn't take us long to understand where the JAX power is based. Isn't it amazing how one joins a certain church and his (not her!) political future is pretty much assured?
And in terms of that particular religious franchise: Is it legal/fair/allowed (whatever) that block-after-block of prime downtown real estate is owned by that entity (and not taxed), while it collects all those parking fees -- money! -- from those seeking to temporarily place their vehicles there during non-worship hours?
~Pastor, Christ Church of Peace
(jaxpaxpastor)
It is legal/fair/allowed. Your church can buy property too.
Quote from: NotNow on April 04, 2011, 04:05:15 PM
I'll say it again, consolidation is the best thing that ever happened to Jax. We just need to hold our local government responsible.
I agree. We've done a pretty poor job of leveraging the benefits of consolidated government.
Perhaps we keep the good parts and work on fixing the bad.
The problem with consolidation, from my perspective, is that it restricts a neighborhood's ability to control more of their destiny. Park improvements, transportation improvements and community centers that directly impact quality of life are difficult to gain political approval of the entire city's elected leaders - but that is what has to happen.
Why not allow the people in one area to decide if they want their tax dollars to be used for a new aquatic complex? Why not allow one part of town to reduce their taxes and correspondingly reduce the amount of services they receive. Some areas wouldn't mind paying a little extra in property tax or sales tax for a new boat ramp and better drainage.
There is no question that we need to redraw the council districts. And I would like to see it go a little further by allowing neighborhoods to not only have an equal vote in matters concerning the entire city, but to have the ability to structure themselves that is appropriate with the type of neighborhood. I think everyone would agree that urban, suburban and rural areas have very different issues.
First Baptist was here when no one else wanted to be. Just sayin'