Metro Jacksonville

Ted Pappas To Address DDRB On Rebuilding Monroe St.

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This Thursday, local architect and Monroe Street property owner, Ted Pappas will give a presentation on why a new one-way street should be built in front of the new courthouse at an additional expense to taxpayers. This may be an meeting downtown advocates may not want to miss.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-mar-ted-pappas-to-address-ddrb-on-rebuilding-monroe-st

wow. This is the most asinine idea. Why would anyone be in support of this?

If anything, it makes it easy to understand how we destroyed one of the most vibrant urban cores in the South over a 30 year period.  The thing that gets me is, one would think we would have learned our lesson by now.  Maybe not.

I worry that drivers heading east on Monroe may become temporarily disoriented and distracted as traffic starts to move by on the right (i.e., instinctively, it feels like the wrong side).  Even before adding that risk, the pedestrian walk from the garage (built for heavy courthouse use) is simply dangerous if Monroe is open.  An enhancing park seems to be a no-brainer to me.     

I think it will be funny when they stupidly agree to rebuild the street and then a pedestrian gets hit and then they have to spend the money to close the street/ make it a park.  We will see how our unsympathetic taxpayers feel then. 

How can it be such an 'arterial entryway' if it doesn't even have access from 95 south?

I would be all for this if Monroe Street wasn't so close to Adams Street after that "slither" of an island; the two streets would be way too close together and it would, at some point either cause a catastrophic auto accident or pedestrian accident; add to this headache stupid tourists or visitors from up north that don't think and would become confused by these two streets being so close together. If they approve such an idea, a working solution ensuring safety would be to somehow block or cordone off Monroe from Adams (in that one block area), and have pedestrians and/or others who are visiting the courthouse by foot to only cross the street on the two "side" north-south streets (Broad or Pearl) that intersect Adams, prohibiting anyone from trying to cross Adams into Monroe on to that slither of island that seperates the two. Just a thought.

"HU"

I prefer to enter from the acosta or main street bridge, nicer views

Another GREAT example of why politicians and city officials are keeping their head in the ground like any ostrich would do.

Ostrich's brains are smaller than their own eyes!. That goes the same for them too!

-Josh

"Arterial Entryway into downtown"??  Has there been a sudden surge of people trying to come downtown all of a sudden?  Based on some of the articles I've seen about downtown, it looks like people are trying to leave... 

Maybe they can make the parcel between Monroe and Adams surface parking lots for the landing.  hehe

Ted Pappas is no authority on urban planning.  Why is his opinion valued so much??

Why can't Adams street sit against the building just like the other three sides????  If the street is deemed necessary (which I don't believe it is) keep it up against the building like any other urban street would be.

Why is this so complicated?

Well, if anything, it would make it easier for him to get to work!   ???

(http://i.imgur.com/5VlCM.png)

Though I don't necessarily agree with the idea, if you have the pull and the audience to sway in favor of making the working lives of people around your business easier, why not give it a shot?

Personally, I think that part of Monroe should be closed.

Quote from: Jason on March 30, 2011, 01:38:54 PM
Why can't Adams street sit against the building just like the other three sides????  If the street is deemed necessary (which I don't believe it is) keep it up against the building like any other urban street would be.

Why is this so complicated?

that was the original plan...but then you break up the plaza from the courthouse...the Pappas cocnept allows the plaza to be adjacent to the courthouse, but thereby forces Monroe to be right next to Adams

Monroe should definitely not be re-installed as it were. Way too close to Adams for that. If city planners wanted to keep Monroe then they shold have used a more vertical design for the courthouse rather than the expansive Taj Mahal-like structure they're building now.

What does need to happen is to put in transit pull-offs on both Broad and Adams adjecent to the courthouse. The rest should be all park space.

Definitely agree with the transit pull off suggestion.  Along Broad, it would be nice to see the proposed BRT station a block north, moved to anchor the west end of the plaza.  Adding a mix of uses to the public space is a major ingredient to making spaces like this vibrant and making transit use more attractive.

Did Corrigan win the tax collector's job?

Uh Ted? Yeah well I can give you one more reason why we shouldn't have another road in front of the Courthouse... Hell, I don't even like the proximity of Duval to the back door of the place, I think I still have dust in my hair from OKC...


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 30, 2011, 08:51:17 AM
I think it will be funny when they stupidly agree to rebuild the street and then a pedestrian gets hit and then they have to spend the money to close the street/ make it a park.  We will see how our unsympathetic taxpayers feel then. 

The city doesn't care if a pedestrian gets hit! Hell, they'll discourage pedestrian use before they admit to making a mistake. And don't think for a microsecond that they'd ever shut down a street.

Well Jacksonville, we did reelect many of the idiots that we needed out of power. Four more years of stagnation. Dig in metrojacksonville, dig in. We'll just have to wait out these next four years.

Maybe just maybe we'll have a surplus in revenue when Hogan's time as mayor is up, with all of the spending cuts he wants to make.

Just sent an e-mail to Mr.Corrigan my district counci lman who i loathe.

The whole decision will turn on security concerns for the judges and prosecutors at the "Parthenon". Bombs in cars or assault rifles on pedestrians - whichever scares them the most.

I think Monroe St can be rebuilt but it should be rebuilt in a way that it doesn't look like a street but a plaza road with bricks everywhere, pedestrian right of way, and stoplights designed to discourage through traffic in front of the courthouse.  If you must drive in front of the courthouse like to drop someone off, you can, but it's not a road that your suppose to drive straight through unless you like driving through a single lane rough brick road that makes your car bounce. 

The idea of laying asphalt across with lines that make it run like a super highway, I think that's a bad idea. 

QuoteIf city planners wanted to keep Monroe then they shold have used a more vertical design for the courthouse rather than the expansive Taj Mahal-like structure they're building now.

Our courhouse is not the Taj.  That designation belongs to the $49 Million courthouse in Tallahassee, FL. 

How much would you be willing to ask taxpayers to fund the construction of a new two block long drop off lane?  Would it be more logical to add a little drop off area along Adams or Pearl Streets?

If the city was so concerned about about the continuation of Monroe, perhaps they should have went with a design that was within and maintained the original grid. Instead of the "sprawling" monstrosity they did build that looks as if it should have the old clock tower so Doc Brown could do weather experiments.

I still like my overpass idea...

Nice!^

In fact, we should consider elevating every downtown street. We could call it the SkywayII.

Imagine the Chamber of Commerce marketing possibilities:

*Take the Jacksonville SkywayII to the amazing new Peyton Place!*

Quote from: Lunican on March 30, 2011, 08:23:04 PM
I still like my overpass idea...

Jacksonville is really good at building flyovers.  Perhaps we can build one over all of downtown.  That way folks can just forget it exists.  ;)

Even though i do not agree with ted on this, Never turn a deaf ear to Ted Pappas.

I do think he is wrong on this one though Matt.  It may have more to do with the building he owns on Monroe than what is best for downtown.  I'd like us to get to a point in Jacksonville where we support the best ideas and not the ideas the well-known and connected are promoting if not the best for Jax.

Quote from: mfc on March 30, 2011, 09:40:43 PM
Even though i do not agree with ted on this, Never turn a deaf ear to Ted Pappas.

I completely agree.  I completely disagree with Ted on this issue, but he is a total gentleman, deserves respect, and his love and concern for the city shouldn't be questioned (even though he's wrong about the Monroe Street issue).

I don't think the article disrespects Ted personally in any fashion and by even discussing this topic, proves that MJ is not turning a deaf ear to his opinion in this situation. I believe most know of Ted's influence and that influence can be scary when decisions that impact the city long term are made from networking and personal relationships instead of sound urban planning principles.  LaVilla was ruined and downtown is a shell of its former self, due to that style of thinking.  In any event, the article simply doesn't agree with his stance on this issue, points out logical reasons why there is a disagreement and encourages people (regardless of their position) to come out and speak on the issue at hand.

If any road gets built on the property, it just goes to show you the mentality of our city leaders. 

This is why our jail has some of the best property with water views (killing all property around it).  This is why the school board is on the water.   

I heard the presentation didn't go too well for Mr. Pappas yesterday and that he was pretty pissed after a MJ member's comments on the matter. Hopefully, we'll get an update here sometime today.

Here ya go...

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2011-04-01

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2011, 07:59:49 PM
How much would you be willing to ask taxpayers to fund the construction of a new two block long drop off lane?  Would it be more logical to add a little drop off area along Adams or Pearl Streets?

I think unfortunately, most of the tax payers here in Jax love their roads. That's the only "public" type of project they don't mind shelling out extra money for.

So is this another win for Metro Jax?  A uninamous council agrees with us on the Monroe St issue?

Awsome! I hope we've killed it for good this time!

City Council gets the last word.  It goes before the Council's Transportation Committee April 4 (this Monday) at 2 p.m.  Bill Bishop is the chair.  If you can get this committee to vote no to keeping Monroe open, then the full Council likely will follow suit.

Rest of the Transportation Committee:

Michael Corrigan - Vice Chair
Dick Brown
Richard Clark
John Crescimbeni
Kevin Hyde
Stephen Joost

Quote from: Kay on April 01, 2011, 12:47:27 PM
Rest of the Transportation Committee:

Michael Corrigan - Vice Chair
Dick Brown
Richard Clark
John Crescimbeni
Kevin Hyde
Stephen Joost

Well Joost, Crescimbeni, Hyde, Clark, Brown and last and certainly least, Corrigan, You all have a chance to earn a little respect from me if you say "no" to re open Monore st. Don't f*** it up!

My suggestion is to email the committee members if you cannot attend the meeting on Monday with if you support or don't the closing of Monroe and why. 

Email addresses:

corrigan@coj.net
dickb@coj.net
jrc@coj.net
joost@coj.net
khyde@coj.net
wbiship@coj.net
rclark@coj.net

wbishop@coj.net   Spelled wrong in previous post.

either adams or duval street needs to be turned into a two way street.  right now it seems strange to have both, which straddle the courthouse site, to both be one way westbound and broad street on the north side to be one way southbound.  that leaves pearl street the only two way street passing this megablock.  not to mention ted's new plan will sever the only two way street.  very bizzare.

The JEDC wants to convert Adams to two way from Main to Jefferson.

I had some remarks prepared, but Stephen was a much more eloquant speaker on the subject and it was clear the DDRB was not in favor of Mr Pappas' plans.

The REAL test is the transportation committee meeting.  Corrigan is in favor of re-opening Monroe.

Show up or email everyone on the committee your thoughts!  This is a big, big issue.

It was stunning hearing the presentation to re-open Monroe yesterday.  The old guard has dug in and is bound and determined to keep downtown auto-centric thereby killing off the remaining building fabric left in our desolate core.  Mr Pappas actually suggested to open a public plaza to the West of the Courthouse by, you guessed it, tearing down more buildings.

I had never met Ted Pappas before.  It was amazing watching the gracefulness of his mere presence.  He is an elder statesman that commands a tremendous amount of respect and his presence was clearly felt in the room before he even spoke.  Stephen's impassioned plea to rebuild a city core, that was so callously destroyed, by keeping the promise of the economic fabric alive.  While Mr Pappas focused on vehicular movement at 8AM and 5PM of every morning, Stephen(and the board) focused on the economic bloodlines flowing through downtown at 11AM, 2PM and 7PM.  'A city should be active for at least 10 hours a day'

Quote from: Hurricane on April 01, 2011, 07:49:47 AM
If any road gets built on the property, it just goes to show you the mentality of our city leaders. 

This is why our jail has some of the best property with water views (killing all property around it).  This is why the school board is on the water.   

The reason why public buildings are at or near the water?  When they built the city hall, the courthouse, and the jail, the waterfront was not an attractive or desirable location.  It was noisy and smelly. 

The school board building was immediately adjacent to a large electric power generating station.

I just hope that Hogan doesn't try to reopen the street. He just seems to be that type of person.

To reopen it, he would have to pay to construct a completely new street because the old one is sitting under the courthouse.  Such a move really doesn't align with Hogan's platform of cutting back.  The fiscally conservative option is not rebuilding the street.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 04, 2011, 01:59:59 PM
To reopen it, he would have to pay to construct a completely new street because the old one is sitting under the courthouse.  Such a move really doesn't align with Hogan's platform of cutting back.  The fiscally conservative option is not rebuilding the street.

It may seem that way but, as I said before, Jacksonville loves its roads way too much. I think people don't care about wasting tax money if it helps them drive more.

Quote from: fieldafm on April 01, 2011, 04:07:30 PM
I had never met Ted Pappas before. It was amazing watching the gracefulness of his mere presence. He...commands a tremendous amount of respect. His presence was clearly felt in the room before he even spoke.

::)

(http://utweet.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sycophant.png)

 :D

Was it taken up Monday (yesterday) in the Council Transportation Committee?  If so, did they vote and how?

So no one went to speak on it in the close Monroe camp?

So you going to round up some folks to speak to it in two weeks?

Quote from: stephendare on May 02, 2011, 02:40:35 PM
Wow.  Bill Bishop is being a real dick on this issue.

Despite almost the entire DDRB/Planning Commission being in attendance today at TEU, Bill Bishop deferred the bill to allow closure of the street, and development into a plaza.

Even more, failed to extend the professional courtesy to the Planning Commission members to speak even though they had all filled out public comment cards.

This week, the deferral was because Michael Corrigan couldn’t be there today. 

Which is odd, because when the Planning Commission asked two weeks ago for a deferral in order for two Council supporters to be present who could not be in attendance ----Bishop refused to defer the meeting at Ron Barton's request.

So the game continues, what the hell.

And here I thought he was one of the good guys. I saw a meeting a while ago, he specified that we were supposed to make DT more pedestrian friendly.

generally he is

what the heck is his issue with this?

Quote from: fsujax on May 02, 2011, 03:59:56 PM
what the heck is his issue with this?

Why don't you call him or email him to find out?

As a point of information -

Does a chair have the discretion to defer items unilaterally?  

Whenever I've been in the role of a chair, I've made it a point to ask for a motion on deferrals.

Quote from: fsujax on May 02, 2011, 03:59:56 PM
what the heck is his issue with this?

Is the chair acting out of deference to Ted Pappas ?

It seems like most of those in favor to keeping Monroe Street open are doing this because:

1. The Council promised to keep the street open, before they fell asleep and approved a building design that ate the street.

2. To spite the mayor and JEDC.

Any suggestions on arguments to overcome these issues that have more to do with politics than actual urban design and doing what's best for downtown?

security reasons - easier to stop a pedestrian than a car.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 02, 2011, 05:15:16 PM
Any suggestions on arguments to overcome these issues that have more to do with politics than actual urban design and doing what's best for downtown?

Here's an idea that might be acceptable to those who want to keep Monroe Street open:

1-Change Broad Street to one-way southbound from Monroe Street to Adams Street.  

2-Make Adams Street a two way street from Broad Street to Pearl Street.

3-Change Pearl Street to one-way northbound from Adams to Monroe.

4-Rename the above road sections to Monroe Street.