Metro Jacksonville

Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2801-234152226_d3acf98653_b.jpg)

JTA wants to know if you would support a real streetcar system in Jacksonville.  Here's your chance to let everyone know.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/636

I like to see some streetcars. Trolleys are OK, but not like the real thing down in San Francisco. I would love to see some modern streetcars in downtown. Let's put them in places that would need a vibrant boost. Let's not murmur and complain about our city anymore and let's make a difference, eh? :D

Yes, I'd like to have them. As for the murmur and complaints....they're valid and we have the right to do so...I agree that we can make a difference, which is why we speak up in the first place.

Outstanding job on the route.  The Brooklyn/Riverside part is ideal in every aspect.  I MIGHT would go with a Main St. route rather than Newnan/Hubbard, but I could go either way.  I like the route to the stadium district too.

We have ridden the streetcars in New Orleans and in Frisco. They are easy off and on and quiet going down streets. They also get good usage. With Florida's abundant good weather days, a car with opening windows would be important. I like the route into Five Points as I live there. But, it should go near parking areas so people can get on it. I think the downtown routes should follow the best possibilities for use by office workers and shoppers; a little more research needed. Glad someone is listening.

What if...the Skyway had been built at street level.

Quote from: vicupstate on November 06, 2007, 07:26:43 AM
Outstanding job on the route.  The Brooklyn/Riverside part is ideal in every aspect.  I MIGHT would go with a Main St. route rather than Newnan/Hubbard, but I could go either way.  I like the route to the stadium district too.

The Hubbard/Main Street routes are where most of the debate came from.  While everyone agrees that a route on Main would be idea, the problems came when you account for the fact that Main is a federal highway (US 17/1) and millions are currently being spent to tear it up and rebuild.  To lay tracks in Main could become a lengthy process (Federal highway) and would render a significant portion of the current streetscape project a waste.

The selection to look at Hubbard, up to 8th was done primarily to keep it as close to Main as possible, without requiring to rip up the current/future/funded streetscape and to set up the Premier Foods/Wachovia Bank blocks as potential TOD sites in the heart of Springfield, helping spread redevelopment both along Main and 8th.

Can the stadium route continue west toward the new (hopefully) court house?

Quote from: JWW on November 06, 2007, 08:43:04 AM
What if...the Skyway had been built at street level.

Then you would not be able to cross it on foot or by car, unless their were grade separated crossings (ex. bridges or tunnels) to allow non-skyway traffic to do so.  I can only think is what if our officials had listened to the opposition at the time, turned down the Federal grant for the skyway and built light rail for a fraction of the Skyway's costs instead.  If that was done back in the late 1970s/early 80's we would probably have already gone through the same revitalization process that San Deigo and Portland went through when they went that route during the same era.

Quote from: Traveller on November 06, 2007, 08:49:44 AM
Can the stadium route continue west toward the new (hopefully) court house?

Another aspect of the planning process was not to try and duplicate Skyway routes, but instead provide a service that complemented the Skyway by accessing areas of downtown that the skyway currently does not serve.  Since the new courthouse site is only a block away from the Skyway's Hemming Plaza station everyone figured downtown would benefit more by taking the same amount of money and using it to extend lines into Springfield, Brooklyn and Five Points.

YES streetcars. Modern/Heritage doesn't matter to me - just get it done! I suppose if one option were quieter than the other (though it doesn't seem one would be), I'd opt for that one.

In Springfield, I think a Main St. line would be a better choice despite the historical use of Hubbard. Hubbard is single-family residential , and the dropping off of riders on that street doesn't seem to make sense like it would if that street were more multi-family. A streetcar a Main would be more convenient to, and create excitement on, the main commercial corridor -- and b/c it's a federal hwy, some funding could come from FDOT.

2 other things I think are missing in metrojacksonville.com's Springfield route solution are

1. The connection to UF/Shands. Those folks will likely want to use the businesses that are coming to Main, and a revitalized downtown. That's like saying, here's a Riverside route with no stops in front of BCBS, Fidelity and Everbank.

2. Also missing is a "stadium spur" that enables resident/northside traffic to abandon the car further north of the sports district. With fewer cars going to stadium/arena/fairgrounds, metrojacksonville.com's suggestion to use some of stadium parking for garage/mixed use to improve that part of downtown works better.

Anything that connects the Blue Cross/Fidelity/Everbank complex to 5 points would be good for 5 points, especially during the hot summer months.  Employees often walk or drive to 5 points for lunch, but during the summer, you get too sweaty.

...Stadium spur from the north end of Springfield through the Eastside neighborhood. Then that area becomes attractive for redevelopment also.

More on stadium spur: make this line the one that pairs with the s-line greenway through Springfield Historic District.

Start at BRT station on Davis, loop north up to s-line behind Shands, follow the s-line greenway east/south down to 1st, then cut over to A. Philip Randolph and down to stadium. Area behind Shands would be cleaned up, and opp for TOD @ 95/Davis/8th, as well as 12th and Main east through the warehouse area of Springfield, then development down main corridor of Eastside.

A shared s-line might make for maximized usage/activity?

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2007, 09:00:20 AM
2 other things I think are missing in metrojacksonville.com's Springfield route solution are

1. The connection to UF/Shands. Those folks will likely want to use the businesses that are coming to Main, and a revitalized downtown. That's like saying, here's a Riverside route with no stops in front of BCBS, Fidelity and Everbank.

2. Also missing is a "stadium spur" that enables resident/northside traffic to abandon the car further north of the sports district. With fewer cars going to stadium/arena/fairgrounds, metrojacksonville.com's suggestion to use some of stadium parking for garage/mixed use to improve that part of downtown works better.

All of this would be solved by using DMUs on the CSX "A", the city owned S-Line (it runs right through Shands' property, and eventually the FEC line.  Graphics showing these routes have been developed, but they'll be posted at a later date once before/after renderings are completed.

QuoteIn Springfield, I think a Main St. line would be a better choice despite the historical use of Hubbard. Hubbard is single-family residential , and the dropping off of riders on that street doesn't seem to make sense like it would if that street were more multi-family. A streetcar a Main would be more convenient to, and create excitement on, the main commercial corridor -- and b/c it's a federal hwy, some funding could come from FDOT.

Regarding FDOT funding, do you think FDOT would be willing to give more money to lay streetcar tracks down Main, which would mean the money given for the current streetscape project would be a waste?  

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2007, 09:00:20 AM
YES streetcars. Modern/Heritage doesn't matter to me - just get it done! I suppose if one option were quieter than the other (though it doesn't seem one would be), I'd opt for that one.

In Springfield, I think a Main St. line would be a better choice despite the historical use of Hubbard. Hubbard is single-family residential , and the dropping off of riders on that street doesn't seem to make sense like it would if that street were more multi-family. A streetcar a Main would be more convenient to, and create excitement on, the main commercial corridor -- and b/c it's a federal hwy, some funding could come from FDOT.

2 other things I think are missing in metrojacksonville.com's Springfield route solution are

1. The connection to UF/Shands. Those folks will likely want to use the businesses that are coming to Main, and a revitalized downtown. That's like saying, here's a Riverside route with no stops in front of BCBS, Fidelity and Everbank.

2. Also missing is a "stadium spur" that enables resident/northside traffic to abandon the car further north of the sports district. With fewer cars going to stadium/arena/fairgrounds, metrojacksonville.com's suggestion to use some of stadium parking for garage/mixed use to improve that part of downtown works better.

Keep in mind that this is designed to fit in to MetroJacksonville's Rail Plan, which uses the S-Line on the northside to head towards the airport. This will provide transit for the residents from further north (new springfield/brentwood/panama) to get downtown (and yes, we did plan for a stop at Shands).

Keep in mind that there are many other places to take the trolley (I'd love to take it through Avondale), but for a first phase, the whole enchilada is not always the right way to go.

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2007, 09:04:57 AM
...Stadium spur from the north end of Springfield through the Eastside neighborhood. Then that area becomes attractive for redevelopment also.

Another part of the discussion revolved around pricing and how much should we spend on a first phase.  A streetcar system costs much more than using DMUs on existing lines.  For example, Albuquerque's streetcar line under construction is estimated to cost $28 million/mile, which is comparable with JTA's planned dedicated busway system.  What's shown on the graphic is exactly four miles, so in the event it came in at Albuquerque's numbers (it could be higher or lower depending on a number of factors), that would total up to $112 million.  By comparison, Austin's DMU system running on existing tracks came in at $112 million for 32 miles, so phasing becomes an important element because we don't have much money to kick around.

So, although it has not been shown on the posted graphic, there's no reason additional lines, like ones running through the Eastside or down to Avondale can't happen.  The real question would revolve around how can we get something started soon, off the ground without breaking the bank, yet still having it lengthy enough to connect current destination stops, triggering infill development between them.

This post is to show some of the alternative transit routes we discussed, any of which could be built in whole or part. Perhaps this is the key to an ultimate system downtown, done in phases. Note that all of the red-orange colors are streetcar routes. The blue-purple are skyway routes. This also shows a jog that would include Annie Lytle School, if it could be used. I realize some are rolling their eyes, seeing a page full of lines, hey, just take a shot and dream a little! This does not address Avondale-Ortega, or San Marco-San Jose, or Arlington (which could go modern streetcar or BRT). Northwest Jax. would seem a better fit for a DMU or Interurban type streetcar service, with BRT feeders.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/downtowntransitalt.jpg)

Ocklawaha

Since when has gov't, at any level, cared if they spend money for something on a band-aid basis only to have to go back and modify shortly thereafter? How about the pocket park on Main? A temporary fix to a problem the city seems to indicate will someday be solved by an RFP to developers, which metrojacksonville.com and others argued for doing NOW.

I don't think gov'ts short-sightedness in fixing something should be used as a reason to justify a strategically inferior option -- FDOT is spending money to have 5th-12th done, and has already spent money to have 1st-4th done, so tearing up a lane to lay streetcar track on that commercial corridor isn't the best option.

I haven't figured out gov't money, and how it is deemed to be spent, other than to say that whatever interest makes the strongest financial case to get something done (or can barter some other valuable with govt) also seems to get gov't favor in terms of spending.

Main over Hubbard is mho based on factors other than short-sighted govt spending.

how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

One critique I have is, it appears that the proposed street car lines compete with the sky way. I think it might be better to have the sky way play more of a central role. For instance, if there is a Duval Line to the Stadium district, it should end at Government Center, rather than cut south, and parallel the skyway.

How would you connect the streetcar with the Park Street line?  What about the Bay Street Town Center, Hyatt, Landing, CSX and the Times Union?  Are these accurately served by the Skyway now?  Do you suggest extending the skyway down Bay Street, in the event that the Shipyards comee to fruition or the convention center is moved to the current courthouse site?

No, perhaps separate lines. Have a Bay St Line and a Duval St Line. Certainly the event day capacity can be used, and that way you use existing infrastructure, rather than compete with it.

well i like the idea of a skyrail but i think we should get one of thoses one way traffic lanes they can be a real pain when ur trying to explorer the streets of downtown

Sky-anything is going to be big bucks. That is what killed the skyway, and why it was never built all the way out.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 06, 2007, 11:23:37 AM
Sky-anything is going to be big bucks. That is what killed the skyway, and why it was never built all the way out.

i say we finish it if it acutaly wnet somewhere people would use it

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 06, 2007, 10:47:58 AM
how about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

I believe, JTA is already in the process of doing this by proposing to extend the trolley to Five Points.  

Quote from: downtownparks on November 06, 2007, 11:13:01 AM
No, perhaps separate lines. Have a Bay St Line and a Duval St Line. Certainly the event day capacity can be used, and that way you use existing infrastructure, rather than compete with it.

Duval through the Hemming Plaza area to Lee and then South to Park?

The only area I see the argument of competing with the Skyway would be the leg between the convention center and Landing, other than that the Skyway remains the only way to get to the Southbank and still directly serves Hemming Plaza, the new courthouse site, city hall and FCCJ, while the streetcar allows you to hit the East Bay area, riverfront and the Cathedral District  without having to spend millions on extending the skyway.

Nevertheless, if the ultimate goal is to tie the streetcar in with the proposed transportation center and Five Points, it will have to parallel the skyway's convention center leg or eliminate the streetcar's access to the waterfront (TU Center, Landing, Hyatt, Bay Street Town Center)

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2007, 10:15:01 AM
Since when has gov't, at any level, cared if they spend money for something on a band-aid basis only to have to go back and modify shortly thereafter? How about the pocket park on Main? A temporary fix to a problem the city seems to indicate will someday be solved by an RFP to developers, which metrojacksonville.com and others argued for doing NOW.

I don't think gov'ts short-sightedness in fixing something should be used as a reason to justify a strategically inferior option -- FDOT is spending money to have 5th-12th done, and has already spent money to have 1st-4th done, so tearing up a lane to lay streetcar track on that commercial corridor isn't the best option.

I haven't figured out gov't money, and how it is deemed to be spent, other than to say that whatever interest makes the strongest financial case to get something done (or can barter some other valuable with govt) also seems to get gov't favor in terms of spending.

Main over Hubbard is mho based on factors other than short-sighted govt spending.

So based off the graphic in the article, run the line up Newnan and switch over to Main in the vicinity of Confederate Park and Hogan's Creek?

I think that would be ok. Why not use some of that ROW money to buy the Parkview Inn as a transfer station.:D:D:D

Streetcar?
DMU/LRT?
Trolley Bus?
Skyway?
Diesel Transit Bus?
Diesel Commuter Flyer Bus?
Community Shuttle Bus?
Subscription Bus?
Special Needs Transit?
HOV?
HOV+BRT?

ALL FOR THE PRICE OF BRT? WHY NOT? JACKSONVILLE!

On top of Commuter Rail using a small, self propelled DMU or EMU (electric) train, on the:
Gateway, Northside, Airport, Fernandina Beach Route.
San Marco, Bowden, Avenues, Nocatee, St. Augustine Route
Edgewood, NAS, Orange Park, Doctors Lake, Green Cove Springs Route.

With HOV-BRT routes working :
Northwest Side, Eastside, Arlington, Regency, Beaches, JTB, Orange Park Rail to Blanding,

Plus the current bus system + new community services + subscription bus + flyers

To this add the follwing mix downtown:

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/SkywayRoutes.png)

A Skyway completed, but not to Springfield, touching the Stadium, San Marco and 5-Points/Riverside, Above traffic and connecting the core as a free shuttle.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TrolleyBusRoutes.png)

A system of real overhead wire trolley buses, are a fixed route system. They have higher ridership figures then diesel buses and better TOD records. They are not as good at either as streetcars, but somewhat more flexible and slightly cheaper.  Best of all, a well planned grid, complimented by Skyway and Streetcar would balance the modes and give us a mix. MIX SELLS TRANSIT!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/downtowntransitalt.jpg)

I already posted a proposed streetcar route. If we used Main, we would need to replace the median with a landscaped rail line, Ditto for Pearl. This would toss auto traffic off on other streets, but new routing, and improvements on I-95 as well as throughout downtown, would lessen the effect. Moreover the numbers that would use transit, should more then account for lane loss, Rail has a MUCH greater lane capacity then highway.

Combined to look like this:

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/DowntownDreamRtes.png)

Ocklawaha

Quotehow about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

The best possible use, is a sale to St. Augustine or Fernandina Beach Tour Operators. The current trolleys don't cut it with anyone. In fact, they have a "FAKE" written all over them, something I believe detracts from them being serious transit shuttles. What if we made life size Cardboard cut-outs of the Jaguars?  Would you buy a ticket to see cardboard Jaguars? No? Why would you go and see the Cardboard Jaguar Cutouts for free? Probably not. But a single REAL player can draw a crowd? Why? Because people are turned off by being talked down to. The numbers in the "OLD PUEBLO TROLLEY" in Tuscon really tell the story. Here a daily fake trolley system, competes head-on with a real trolley. There are more fakes then real trolleys, and the fakes go into the heart of the nightlife, the real trolley falls quite short of the same. Same schedule? No, in fact the fakes run nearly 18 hours a day, while the real ones just a few days a week, few trips, with volunteer labor. What happens? The REAL TROLLEYS carry twice to three times as many passengers per week as the fakes. Let's not make the same mistake, don't spend a dime on more fake anything. To get it right, we must get real!

Anyone can locate the OLD PUEBLO (Tuscon AZ) trolley numbers, and story online.

Ocklawaha

Quote from: jbm32206 on November 06, 2007, 05:25:28 AM
Yes, I'd like to have them. As for the murmur and complaints....they're valid and we have the right to do so...I agree that we can make a difference, which is why we speak up in the first place.

I can understand. We all have the right to express how we feel. Ain't no use of us doubting that. I just felt that if we continue to murmur and complain about our city, we are only limiting ourselves and not much can get done around here. For example, the story of Moses. When God helped Moses lead the children of Israel away from slavery in Egypt, the people murmured and complained about everything especially against Moses claiming that he led them in the wilderness only to die. God wanted them all to get to their new home. A paradise flowing with milk and honey. And It would've took all of them eleven days to get there. But with all of that murmuring and complaining they did (against Moses) it had took them 40 YEARS and only Joshua and Celeb made it to their new home. Millions of others that were with them all died along the way...even Moses. So we can all see that murmuring and complaining only make things worse for us. Not just us but our future generations and that saddens our Lord.  :(    

For Springfield residents:

How do you feel about a streetcar running down Pearl or any street other than Main?  Is it Main or bust?

Ock:

So the only way to run tracks up Main would be by rebuilding the median?  Do you think the FDOT would be willing to let track run in one of the existing lanes?  If not, this means all the money currently being spent on Main is a complete waste and all parallel parking on Main will be lost to accomodate four lanes of traffic and streetcar tracks.

I think for saftey purposes, it almost has to be in the outside lanes, going north and South.

Canal Street - New Orleans (tracks run in middle of street)
(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/1b/ea/4b/canal-st.jpg)

(http://www.canalstreetcar.com/postkatrina/canal_carrollton_2005102602a.jpg)

Portland Streetcar - (tracks run with lanes - will FDOT allow this?)
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/por-lrtscar-psu-campus.jpg)

TECO Streetcar - Tampa (tracks run on outer edge of road - will take the place of parallel parking)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Tecostreetcar.JPG/800px-Tecostreetcar.JPG)

The current median on Main St between 1st and 4th is wide enough for one track

I think it would be best to leave the median, and put one track north and one track south on the outside lanes.

Quote
So the only way to run tracks up Main would be by rebuilding the median?  Do you think the FDOT would be willing to let track run in one of the existing lanes?  If not, this means all the money currently being spent on Main is a complete waste and all parallel parking on Main will be lost to accomodate four lanes of traffic and streetcar tracks.

I'm pretty sure in an urban area, we could twist the arm of FDOT and USDOT on that one, since a streetcar must be considered as a transit vehicle. The only question would be some mandate on where the tracks were placed. In my mind (what's left of it anyway) to rebuild Main AND Pearl, without the "MOST BEAUTIFUL STREETCAR LINE IN THE WORLD" coming back to life, is a travesty. We had it once, and median or no, this is once when we should bite the 7 block or 10 block bullet and do it right the SECOND time out. As for safety, on single track, simple safety islands serve the purpose. On double track, safety islands can be used, or the cars can run left handed so the passengers board onto the adjacent track (of course when there is no other car coming along). Curbside does take out parking but offers safety. I'd like to see median, where we can landscape ourselves back into the World Book of Records... Then slow lane in other areas, with a hybrid of enlarged safety corners on the blocks, these would protect the parked cars and at the end of each street give a place to board. I'll try a picture.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/streetcarlane.png)


Ocklawaha

If a trolley system or light rail is introduced downtown, there should be free zones downtown that encourage people to stay downtown and use the system.  Only those who travel out of the urban core, to the burbs, should pay a fee.  In Portland they have the free zones downtown and within the entire system there is not much supervision of fair payment.  They rely on honesty for payment.  Perhaps we could do something like that in Jax.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 06, 2007, 02:30:01 PM

Quotehow about we start by just upgrading/streamlining the existing trolley to serve these routes...then once ridership has sufficiently increased, consider putting rails in the street to encourage nearby development.

The best possible use, is a sale to St. Augustine or Fernandina Beach Tour Operators. The current trolleys don't cut it with anyone. In fact, they have a "FAKE" written all over them, something I believe detracts from them being serious transit shuttles. What if we made life size Cardboard cut-outs of the Jaguars?  Would you buy a ticket to see cardboard Jaguars? No? Why would you go and see the Cardboard Jaguar Cutouts for free? Probably not. But a single REAL player can draw a crowd? Why? Because people are turned off by being talked down to. The numbers in the "OLD PUEBLO TROLLEY" in Tuscon really tell the story. Here a daily fake trolley system, competes head-on with a real trolley. There are more fakes then real trolleys, and the fakes go into the heart of the nightlife, the real trolley falls quite short of the same. Same schedule? No, in fact the fakes run nearly 18 hours a day, while the real ones just a few days a week, few trips, with volunteer labor. What happens? The REAL TROLLEYS carry twice to three times as many passengers per week as the fakes. Let's not make the same mistake, don't spend a dime on more fake anything. To get it right, we must get real!

Anyone can locate the OLD PUEBLO (Tuscon AZ) trolley numbers, and story online.

Ocklawaha

you are kidding right....I'm sure the main purpose in having a system would be to provide a transit alternative....not just to have some fun train for everyo9ne to look at!

Even San Francisco, where I am right now, has rubber-tired trolleys and trackless trolleys (read electeric buses) to go along with the streetcars and cable cars....and they all seem pretty well packed.

Trackless Trolleys are REAL transit vehicles, built to heavy duty Transit Standards. Faux Trolleys are amusement park rides that somehow escaped into the real world. They have been over-sold and way under utilized throughout the Americas. As for Transit Standards, they are built more like school buses, or as I have said, Potato Chip Trucks. They go to the factory direct from the automakers as a engine and frame assembly. A box is then added depending on if they are making trucks for Chips or for People, either way the ride and the look is pretty much the same. HORRIBLE. If we want transit shuttles, I'm the first in line for modern ELECTRIC Trolley Buses, as long as they have Gillig, MCI or other coach builders construction. Give us electrics downtown any day.

Ocklawaha

QuoteOnly those who travel out of the urban core, to the burbs, should pay a fee.  In Portland they have the free zones downtown and within the entire system there is not much supervision of fair payment.  They rely on honesty for payment.  Perhaps we could do something like that in Jax.

If Mayor Peyton's Bus is to be his legacy, perhaps FARE FREE TRANSIT in Jacksonville would happen, along with a good mix of modes and routes. Imagine being the Mayor that dumped BRT (as is) and demonstrated to all of Florida how to do Transit Right! Cool eh? Yes, your fare free zone is a wonderful idea!

Ocklawaha

Hell yes I want a trolley system downtown.  What a brilliant idea!  Though I agree with some other posts that it should compliment, not compete, with the Skyway.  Also, it should extend to Riverside, Brooklyn, Springfield, San Marco, the Cathedral District, the East side and possibly even to Murray Hill/Avondale.  As far as a tourist attraction, it's the best idea since they renamed the city "The Bold New City of the South".  And of course, seeing as this is such an awesome idea, and such a simple solution to transportation downtown and in surrounding areas it will never get off the ground. 

Rome wasn't built in a day.  To get such a system off the ground, it would make sense to build it in phases to keep costs down.  Perhaps a "starter" or "pilot" line that definately connects places where people want to go for a change.  For example, would a starter line that connected Five Points to the Landing draw more ridership over one that would run from Springfield to the riverfront?

If those are proven to be successful, then maybe the city could then look at expanding lines to Avondale, Murray Hill or further up Main as future phases?

This is the plan I've been picturing.  I've included my vision of a comprehensive yet simple region wide plan as well as a downtown system that compliments a completed skyway and prevents duplication of routes.

This system connects most major residential areas to all major airports (JIA, Herlong, Cecil, Craig, St. Aug Municipal), most major shopping districts (Town Center, Avenues, Regency, Downtown,), most major entertainment districts, and most major office, industrial, and commercial work areas (NAS Jax, Cecil, Tallyrand, Downtown, Gate Pkwy, and Phillips Hwy industrial centers.

This system caters to the casual shopper, commuter, buisness traveler, and tourist.  Add a bus system that acts as a feeder to channel in people to the regional system and there will be very few places that can't be accessed without a car.


Key:

Lt. Blue = Skyway (existing & new)
Dk. Blue = Streetcar Route
Red = Streetcar Route
Yellow = Commuter Rail/DMU Route
Orange = BRT/Heavy Rail/Light Rail Route


Overall system:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-1.jpg)



Downtown system:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-2.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-3.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-4.jpg)





Southside Shopping Loop:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-5.jpg)





Beaches Line:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-6.jpg)





St. Augustine Historic District:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/StAugustineTransit-3.jpg)

That would be a great way to get around town and to the stadium district which I see as a very underutilized "potential" gold mine. It's just difficult to get there. Luckily I live a mile from it and can walk to a game, but I  would love to take a short trolley to avoid parking and driving hassles.

But, clue me in...tell me the difference between Trolleys and Street Cars to the untrained schmo they seem interchangeable terms  ???

I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

Quote from: Jason on November 07, 2007, 10:32:42 AM
This is the plan I've been picturing.  I've included my vision of a comprehensive yet simple region wide plan as well as a downtown system that compliments a completed skyway and prevents duplication of routes.

This system connects most major residential areas to all major airports (JIA, Herlong, Cecil, Craig, St. Aug Municipal), most major shopping districts (Town Center, Avenues, Regency, Downtown,), most major entertainment districts, and most major office, industrial, and commercial work areas (NAS Jax, Cecil, Tallyrand, Downtown, Gate Pkwy, and Phillips Hwy industrial centers.

This system caters to the casual shopper, commuter, buisness traveler, and tourist.  Add a bus system that acts as a feeder to channel in people to the regional system and there will be very few places that can't be accessed without a car.


Key:

Lt. Blue = Skyway (existing & new)
Dk. Blue = Streetcar Route
Red = Streetcar Route
Yellow = Commuter Rail/DMU Route
Orange = BRT/Heavy Rail/Light Rail Route


Overall system:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-1.jpg)



Downtown system:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-2.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-3.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-4.jpg)





Southside Shopping Loop:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-5.jpg)





Beaches Line:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-6.jpg)





St. Augustine Historic District:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/StAugustineTransit-3.jpg)

im 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this!

Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on November 06, 2007, 04:00:00 AM
Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2801-234152226_d3acf98653_b.jpg)

JTA wants to know if you would support a real streetcar system in Jacksonville.  Here's your chance to let everyone know.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/636 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/636)

im 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this! it would bring so much more attention to jacksonville and stuff !!!

Quote from: Johnny on November 08, 2007, 11:50:59 AM
I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

That sounds like a good plan, but are you prepared to write the $200 million check to the Feds if we scrap it (that's apparently the result)

Quote from: Steve on November 08, 2007, 04:24:03 PM

Quote from: Johnny on November 08, 2007, 11:50:59 AM
I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

That sounds like a good plan, but are you prepared to write the $200 million check to the Feds if we scrap it (that's apparently the result)

Why would Jax owe the Fed $200 mil? Is that money they paid Jacksonville to create the skyway? What did Jax do with that $? I find it hard to believe they spent $200 million on that. If they used the money on something else then, they should pay it back.

Actually, I take that back... I would not be surprised if they didn't spend 10 times that, seeing as how Jacksonville's government operates.

They spent an amazing $184 million on the 2.5 mile Skyway.  There have been heavy rail systems with tunnels built for cheaper prices.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 08, 2007, 05:27:02 PM
They spent an amazing $184 million on the 2.5 mile Skyway.  There have been heavy rail systems with tunnels built for cheaper prices.

OK, I'm not really surprised, but is there any reason why the money would have to be paid back to the Feds?

Quoteim 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this! it would bring so much more attention to jacksonville and stuff !!!

Anothertechy, interesting point of view. As the rail guy here, perhaps I should mention that San Francisco has an extensive Trolley Network, ONE LINE of that network is with historic streetcars. That line handles not only real Transit loads but also a BUNCH of tourism, that we could use $$. These are not the historic cable-cars, which are not Trolleys at all. These are pure electric streetcars, most are modern rail vehicles called LRT. They cost less then heavy rail but can be operated in trains of as many cars as desired.

If you are speaking of Heavy Rail, San Francisco also has that. It is the Bay Area Rapid Transit or BART. BART was a pace setting adventure, being the first major new heavy rail start-up in 50 years when it was built. There were some bad mistakes in the system, but today it is flying high, even with it's crazy wide gauge track. When BART was built, people around the USA were convinced the railroads would be gone by 2000, so it didn't matter what the gauge was...wide gauge = better ride. While this is true, it also = big buck custom work on every single piece of the system. Now they are sort of stuck with the weird size trains, and continue to have OMG moments... OMG Trains didn't die... OMG This can get expensive... and OMG we are glad we didn't go with buses because we really thought all trains were dead!

My professional opinion is that Heavy Rail just doesn't suit Jacksonville, even if we had another million persons and more money then brains. Sadly, we seem to be missing all three Heavy Rail components: another million persons, excess money, and completely brain dead in Transit leadership. A good mix of LRT AND commuter trains, something else found in San Francisco, would work great here. Mix sells Transit. Choice sells. Skyway, Commuter Rail, LRT, Heritage Trolley, Trolley-BUS, BRT, City Bus, Commuter Bus and Special Needs Buses would blow this City into an Orlando-Miami-Dallas-Charlotte like orbit.

Ocklawaha

 
CNN.com    

   
NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (AP) -- Amid a Carnival-like atmosphere, streetcars began rolling past the historic mansions of this city's Garden District Saturday for the first time since Hurricane Katrina halted the St. Charles Avenue line more than two years ago.

While only about half of the line is reopened, many see the return of the 1920s-era green cars as a sign of progress in the city's recovery and a morale booster.

"It's like having another piece of the puzzle, another piece of the city" back, said Melisa Rey, who rode on the first of a string of cars with her husband, Tom, and 10-month-old daughter, Jeanne-Marie. "It's so nice to finally have some good publicity," Tom Rey added.

Six of the 13 miles where the cars once ran are now open on the St. Charles line, and officials hope to restore full service by spring.

It's been slow going in large part due to the cost and scope of the storm's damage to the line's power system, due for an upgrade before the August 2005 storm. Mark Major, general manager of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority, praised federal highway officials for providing $14 million that he said was key to the resumption of the service.

Politicians and local officials were on hand, as they were in December when an initial loop of about 1.2 miles opened. But the feel was different, more festive. VideoWatch brass band celebrate return of St. Charles streetcars »

On Saturday, a marching band led the streetcars down to the Lee Circle loop. Revelers dotted the oak-lined avenue -- some waving or holding up drinks, others carrying signs that read "No More Bus" or "Welcome Back," or offering riders Mardi Gras beads or high-fives.

Councilwoman Stacy Head called the streetcars part of the city's identity -- "everything from the noise, the clanging down the avenue to the lights at night." The St. Charles line was the oldest continuously operating line in the world before Katrina shut it down in August 2005. It began operation in September 1835.

"It's what makes New Orleans feel like home," Head said. "It's as important as red beans and rice and Mardi Gras, and it's hard to explain to people who aren't part of this city how important this is as an icon and a real-life form of transportation."

Karen Miller grew up riding the streetcar and took it to work before Katrina. It's not just for tourists, and it's far more fun than riding a bus -- especially when the windows are down, she said. A warm breeze blew through the car in which she was riding.

Transit officials expect to run about five cars on the St. Charles line. The fare is $1.25 beginning Sunday; people got to take rides for free Saturday afternoon. Four or five streetcars also are running on the Canal Street line and two are available along the riverfront.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

All AboutHurricane Katrina • New Orleans



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/11/katrina.streetcar.ap/index.html

QuoteFrom METROJACKSONVILLE 2007:
JTA wants to know if you would support a real streetcar system in Jacksonville.  Here's your chance...

QuoteROBERT MANN 1981:
The (SKYWAY EXPRESS), the Jacksonville system would virtually be a gift from Uncle Sam, a three- or
four- mile $150 million dollar gift. The trouble with gifts of this nature is that someone has to pay to maintain the thing and what happens if the entire system proves to be a turkey? What about 5 or 15 years from now? Will a sleek little box that rolls along, akin to an airport shuttle system, really be the answer for an urban sprawl that may someday reach St.Augustine?"
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: JTA's BRT proposal is very damaging for downtown.  Not only does it replace hundreds of parallel parking spaces with lanes that have buses running on them every 90 seconds during peak hours, it also parallel's the $184 million dollar skyway.  By having BRT stops at every skyway station, the system eliminates the need to transfer or use the skyway at all.  So if we are adding up costs, we might as well add the $184 million dollars spent on the skyway to the overall cost of this bus rapid transit system.

Quote
METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: The JTA BRT meetings are a complete charade. Any serious questions regarding project cost, timeline, routes, and neighborhood integration are left completely unanswered. At this point, JTA has no plan other than to start haphazardly acquiring large pieces property throughout Jacksonville.
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: This will effectively remove large parcels, which include office parks and shopping centers, off of the tax rolls and into JTA's hands. The money designated for transit by the Better Jacksonville Plan will be used to land bank property, leaving Jacksonville with no transit improvements and less tax revenue.
Blight is another major concern with JTA's bus rapid transit proposal.  Several parts of the system will have to be elevated to cross existing rail lines and major highways.  This means in these areas, BRT will introduce skyway like infrastructure in many neighborhoods bordering the system, such as Avondale, Murray Hill, Arlington and the Northside.
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STAMFORD CT. LRT PLAN 2007: Malloy said he did not expect much land would be acquired for the project through eminent domain. It's likely that for stretches of the route, the electric car route could be integrated into the current road system, though the study would help determine whether that's feasible, he said.

Quote
ROBERT MANN 1981: Mann then offers an imposing list of cities in which planned LRTs are being built or planned. "Light-rail systems are presently being built in Buffalo, N.Y., and San Diego, Calif., and planned for Portland, Ore; San Jose, Calif.; Denver, Col.;; Baltimore, Md.; Dayton, Ohio; Sacramento, Calif.; and Vancouver, British Columbia.
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STAMFORD CT 2007: More than 20 U.S. cities, including Boston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Baltimore, San Diego and Sacramento, have implemented some kind of light rail service.

QuoteSTAMFORD CT. 2007:  But now many cities are bringing back electric streetcars, which could carry three times as many commuters as a typical bus and run at faster speeds if built with their own steel track right-of-way.
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ROBERT MANN 1981:  "LRT is electric and clean. It is better on labor than the bus systems since the higher-capacity cars can be linked into trains of up to four or five cars with a single driver. As for speed, which includes time at stations and stops, the average bus in the United States does little better than 11.5 mph while the light-rail vehicle in Buffalo will do 23 mph. LRT has a much higher ridership than the bus systems on a worldwide basis and the vehicles can be bought 'off the shelf.'

QuoteMETROJACKSONVILLE 2007: So in conclusion, it's not as much about bus rapid transit versus rail as it is about taking advantage of things we already have in place.  Because three of the bus rapid transit corridors parallel rail lines, JTA also doesn't have to start from scratch.  The only thing that would change along the chosen corridors would be an upgrade from bus technology to rail.
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ROBERT MANN 1981: "In Jacksonville, there exist opportunities which exist in no other city: a spider web of tracks fanning out from Union Station to Southside, Ortega and Orange Park, Baldwin, northwest Jacksonville and Dinsmore, within a mile of the aiport, onto Blount Island, etc.

Quote
ROBERT MANN 1981: "Then tell yourself that it is already there save for the downtown mall and the trolley wire and it wouldn't have to compete with the automobile. Next tell yourself that San Diego built a 16 mile system for half the cost of our Four-mile DPM and used not one penny of federal money! Next ask: Who really runs things at the JTA?"
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: Despite the claims that railroad companies are hard to deal with, the plan still involves JTA having to purchase rail right of way to run bus lines near Philips Highway and Roosevelt Blvd.  Spending money on this right-of-way, plus constructing an expressway for buses will easily costs more than potentially negotiating with railroads to purchase or use portions of these double tracked rail lines for mass transit.  By constructing BRT next to existing rail lines, we will miss the opportunity to save millions by using what we already have in place, as well as the chance for a superior mode of transit.

QuoteJACKSONVILLE JTA 1981, 1990, 2007: We are doing a rail study
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STAMFORD CT. 2007:  The city hopes to have a contractor selected for the study before the year's end, Stamford Transportation Planner Joshua Lecar said. The study should take about six months.

It is not known how long construction and implementation would take after the study, but Malloy said it was important to get the groundwork done now.

Quote
STAMFORD CT. 2007: Malloy was optimistic that, eventually, the light rail link could be built because the city has had success with other long-term projects like the Mill River park, corridor redevelopment and the Urban Transitway - a mile-long road between the East Side and the train station, which broke ground last month.
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: Many local planners also believe that this bus rapid transit system will spur "Transit Oriented Development" throughout Jacksonville's neighborhoods.  Unfortunately, the history of BRT paints a different picture.  You can't have TOD without good "T".  It's well known that developers are less apt to invest millions in transit oriented development, if the transit system that development is constructed around can pick up and move on the drop of a dime.  BRT's "flexibility" is the primary reason it is an inferior mode of transit if part of your goal in creating a system is to encourage redevelopment along it's path.

Quote
METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: For years, JTA and their consultants have told the general public that their BRT concept is cheaper than all forms of rail.  Here's proof, from their own documents, that this is simply not true.
JTA's own BRT Technology Assessment Report, prepared by Parsons Brinckerhoff, clearly illustrates that there are various forms of rail that are well below the average price of Bus Rapid Transit using dedicated busways.
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STAMFORD CT. 2007:  More transit planners are turning to light rail as a traffic solution because it's less expensive than commuter rail and more desirable than some bus systems.

QuoteSTAMFORD CT. 2007: 'Light rail has a greater carrying capacity than the bus . . . and when traveling on a fixed route, could move more rapidly,' Lapp said. And even with some buses using more environmentally friendly fuels, 'the fuel burned (by rapid transit) is cleaner.'
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JTA 2007:  It's just like rail only cheaper.

Ocklawaha