Metro Jacksonville

Early Thursday morning, JSO arrested Bryson Dale Bowman, 22, while he was putting up one of his distinctive, metallic paint SIMON tags.

Bowman, the son of the owner of Jaguar Bail Bonds, has so far been charged with two counts of felony criminal mischief and seven counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief.  More charges may be filed as information comes in from other parts of the city about damage there.

A JSO spokesman says that Bowman has done over a hundred-thousand dollars worth of damage in the City.

Bowman was released on $25,000 bond from Jaguar Bail Bonds.

YaY!!!!!!! Now if they could get the taggers  "Sike" and "Atari" ........   I think these two characters have tagged on just about every side of the city.. for sure they have tagged the Parkview  Inn,  various spots in the Regency and down town areas .

Do these guys do any interesting work, or just tag their brand name all over the place?

I've not noticed any graffiti I considered worth tolerating locally.

tags...everywhere .. and seems they love tagging buildings.  If you want to see 40 years of graffiti , visit School 4 . its completely covered inside. Now they are working on the outside.  Some may consider it art.. tagging buildings , dumpsters, whatever, is, at least to me, a nuisance at best.

Not all graffiti is created equal.

(http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/outusa/images/tableimages/CEW_long.jpg)
(http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/outuk/images/TABLE/nofuture.jpg)
(http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/outvarious/images/tableimages/dreams.jpg)
(http://www.banksy.co.uk/outdoors/outvarious/images/tableimages/trespassing.jpg)

Have loved Banksey for a long time -- have a great little coffee table book of his stuff.

...the irony.

A different guy:
(http://www.victorash.net/recent_works/bremen_2009/victor_ash_bremen_bunker_1.jpg)

Anothern:
(http://www.graffiti.org/index/front_march2011_bronx_tats.jpg)

Whole nuther dood:
(http://www.graffiti.org/style/style1_giugno_07x.jpg)

You ever notice that these "artists" never put their stuff on their own houses?

These punks in Jacksonville are just writing their names on everything.  How cool! (NOT!)

Quote from: stephendare on March 26, 2011, 10:33:07 AM
Graffiti is a little more complicated than all that, and tagging is a part of the graffiti culture.

There is a huge difference between a vandal and a graffiti artist, and the vandal who disrespects the well maintained areas of private property without permission is a very very small percentage of the kids and artists who produce 'spray' art.

We solved a lot of this problem 18 years ago by providing free areas for taggers and graffiti, with pretty spectacular effects.

One old abandoned yard, and all the walls behind five points.

As a result of having legal places to spray, the tagging pretty much disappeared in riverside.  Because there was a common ground for older people and younger spray artists to mix and mingle, the worst behavior was mitigated or modified.

For example, the spray tags were replaced with stickers that could be removed much more easily. 

A couple of years ago, Five Points barricaded in the walls, and repainted some of the biggest murals with some bland yuppie gay color.

As a result, the tagging began to appear again.  Now its everywhere.

I suspect that the solution we implemented a few years ago should be reinstituted.

As an illustrator, I agree with this idea. Give kids (well, and adults) a place to do this stuff legally and it won't show up on private property (which in my view is definitely vandalism, I don't care what the message is). When I was in high school, a teacher once confiscated my sketchbook. So I drew in my notebook. That, too, was confiscated. By the end of class I had desecrated an entire desk with weird artwork. I was required to clean the desk and a note went home to my parents. My dad's response was "why'd you take away all of his paper if you didn't want him drawing on the desk?"

Though the rogue nature of some graffiti is part of the point of the artwork...I don't see how tagging in and of itself is a viable artistic statement. Looks like old fashioned vandalism to me.

Same here. I don't like everything in sight tagged. 

They have tried "free" or "legal" walls in lots of cities.  They have inevitably been failures and help spread graffiti in the areas around the walls.

This from the graffitihurts.org web site.  Graffitihurts is a division of Keep America Beautiful, Inc. and is supported mostly by Sherman Williams Paint, the makers of Krylon spray paints.  There is a lot of academic research to support this position on their really good web site.

QuoteCommunities that have tried "legal" or "free walls," or areas that permit graffiti, typically find them ineffective, including over a dozen cities in California, Illinois, Connecticut, and other states.

While well intentioned, legal walls often cause more harm than good, and tend to attract graffiti vandals from outside the city. They may appear to work at first, but after a period of time, the surrounding areas also become covered with graffiti.

With a legal wall, governments or businesses essentially sponsor graffiti in an effort to rid a community of graffiti. This sends a mixed message. Data also shows no decrease in arrests for graffiti in cities where there are legal walls.

Communities that want to create a "legal" wall should be ready to take responsibility for any number of adverse effects, or liability and negligence issues. Following are just a few to consider:

    Who will monitor the wall?
    Will it be repainted regularly to provide a fresh "canvas"?
    What if someone writes obscenities on the wall? What action would be taken?
    What if the graffiti moves to walls nearby or surrounding the "legal wall"? Who will pay for removal? Who will ensure the safety of those removing graffiti?
    Who is allowed to use the "legal wall"? Will they be required to wear face masks? How will any "rules" be enforced?
    Are there laws in place that restrict possession of graffiti implement by minors? Who will enforce these?
    If you have any new data or information on legal walls, please e-mail Graffiti Hurts®.

Quote from: Timkin on March 25, 2011, 05:51:47 PM
YaY!!!!!!! Now if they could get the taggers  "Sike" and "Atari" ........   I think these two characters have tagged on just about every side of the city.. for sure they have tagged the Parkview  Inn,  various spots in the Regency and down town areas .

Atari (with the anarchist's A circle first letter) has tagged a couple of my buildings.  If I catch him before JSO does I just might take his thumbs as trophies. 

(I'm just joking guys!  I would actually just say really ugly things to him then follow him home with spray cans of my own!)

Well the backside of the shops in 5 Points have in effect been a free wall for the last three years and the trash has spread all through the area.  Take a look at it from Oak Steet sometime and tell me if it is art.  Some jerks even broke into the courtyard at Underbelly's and tagged over the wall art that Emily Moody had made space for there.

Soooo much respect for someone who is trying to do something neat and different in the neighborhood.

City of Jax did a good job of refurbishing the famous 5 Points Beacon and some jackass tagged it in the first week after that.  Every trash can, traffic signal control box, store window, mailbox, newspaper box, gas bottle, light pole, storefront, expressway wall and dumpster in Riverside is tagged repeatedly despite the presence of a de facto free wall in the area......actually, BECAUSE of the presence of the de facto free wall.

99.9% of the stuff that appears in Jacksonville is crude tags, pasters and balloon letters all of which is pure vandalism.  And I haven't seen the other 000.01% yet.

None of it even begins to approach the artistic merit of something like Josh's awesome commissioned and paid for piece on the Lomax Street side of Fans and Stoves.  Commissioned and paid for by RAP, and approved by the building owner BTW!  Now THAT piece is art!

I think every tagger , and , well every would-be artist has tagged somewhere in or on Annie Lytle School.

If I put my tattoo on someones skin against their will it is assault.  If Leonardo DiVinci painted the Last Supper on my wall without my permission, it is vandalism.  Artistic merit has NOTHING to do with it.

If you want to be an artist, buy your own damn canvas.  If you want to be a muralist, get permission or buy your own wall.  Notice that none of these creeps tags their parents' house, do they?

Senior moment!   :-[  Of course it was Shawn Thurston.  I was admiring the mural and looking at the signature just yesterday afternoon too.  Jeesch!  OAIH!

In any case, the era of Jacksonville's free wall is over. 

The complete lack of respect that these jerks show for the businesses in 5 Points that are the reason they are IN 5 Points just pushes all my bad buttons.  Here are small businesses that are fighting to keep their heads above water and add to the wonderful energy and bohemian atmosphere that is 5 Points.  The punks then do their doodles on every available surface, and the City comes along and hits the same businesses with a $250 citation for not removing the stuff fast enough.  Twice victimized!  And it happens over and over again.

We will have to agree to disagree.  IMO, there are no graffiti artists in Jacksonville, just graffiti vandals who will never be a positive.  There are many, many fantastic artists here, but they don't deface other peoples property.

I agree that it is, and should be a criminal offense to vandalize public or private property, including Tagging a wall.

Still, I've seen some pretty awesome graffiti. An artist will usually be granted permission, or even paid for his/her services.

Not sure what to think about the free wall and how it might affect the proliferation of taggers adding to the ugly.

Shawn Thurston is an superb artist who creates his murals on walls with spray paints.  He gets paid pretty well for doing so and his patrons provide his "canvas".

Other than using spray paint, he has nothing in common with the people we are having problems with in 5 Points.

Quote from: Timkin on March 25, 2011, 05:51:47 PM
YaY!!!!!!! Now if they could get the taggers  "Sike" and "Atari" ........   I think these two characters have tagged on just about every side of the city.. for sure they have tagged the Parkview  Inn,  various spots in the Regency and down town areas .

SIKE, on of the most prolific and damaging tagger (graffiti vandal) in the city was arrested on May 5 and remains in Duval County Jail.  His name is Kenneth Richard Bell, 23.  He has tagged hundreds and hundreds of building, signs, churches and traffic control structures. 

He is charged with 11 counts of felony criminal mischief for which his bond is $50,000 per count and 23 counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief for which his bond is $25,000 per count so his total bond is $1.1 million dollars.  He obviously won't get out of jail before his trial.

It is clear that the States Attorneys Office under Angela Corey is taking a MUCH harder line against graffiti vandals than her predecessor did.

well well !! :)  DEFINITELY an "atta boy"  to JSO for finally getting this guy.  Wonder where his sidekick , Atari is ?  Usually where you see one tag, you the the other :)

Good job , JSO ! :)

A million-dollar bond for a 20/yo graffiti vandal? I hate these !@#%s too, but come on, that's ridiculous and cruel.

You could *literally* kill someone and be granted a lower bond...

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 25, 2011, 06:12:17 PM
A million-dollar bond for a 20/yo graffiti vandal? I hate these !@#%s too, but come on, that's ridiculous and cruel.

You could *literally* kill someone and be granted a lower bond...

That does seem a bit over the top .. I wonder what kind of sentence this kid will end up with? and if he is done tagging

That bond amazed me.....Draconian

Wow!

You guys crucify the guy on one hand and then when the punishment is metered, you think that it's too cruel.  Oh wait!!!!!  He hasn't been punished yet.  The judge only set a bond, based on the crime that he was accused of, that he had the option of paying (about 110K to a bailbondsman) or sitting in jail until his court date. 

I don't see the issue here.  The guy is accused of tagging up shit all over j'ville, but when the judge makes it nearly impossible for him to get out of jail before his trial, then some of you raise hell.   ::)

Let him sit in jail for a few days/weeks, take his plea bargain and get back to tagging shit.  It's not going to be life altering, just an inconvenience.

I find a bond of over a million dollars pretty bizarre for a non-violent crime...yes I understand the counts and how it all works...and yes some of these little punks are a pain in the ass and cause property damage...but really...wow

I remember a situation involving 5...count 'em...5 capital felonies, including sexual battery on a child under 13. Bond was set at $500k total and frankly we all thought that was outrageously high. This kid only spray-painted stuff, and draws $1.1mm? Seriously? Just seems grossly disproportionate, and likely violative of his constitutional rights. He is constitutionally entitled to a non-excessive bond.

CWUFG - you're the attorney here.  If someone racked up 50 charges of a class 3 possession, wouldn't the bail be jacked up from ROR to 1M just because of the frequency and lack of respect of the law. 

I don't think it matters what the crime actually is, but if you get caught enough, you eventually have to pay the piper so to speak. 

And once again, it's a bond.  It's not something that he HAS to pay.  I would have been singing an entirely different story if it was his FINE.

Another question left unanswered is when his trial is.  If the bond's been set, he's been to an arrainment, probably without an attorney, court appointed or otherwise because he thought he was going to get off until trial.  So he has to sit in jail for a month because he's a cocky ass (I say that based on what I've read about his actions, not what I actually know about the person) and he's the one that set himself up for it. 

How many times have you sat in court, only to watch someone give themselves jailtime because they didn't have someone arguing their case for them?

Somebody had to clean up the mess he made. Often it's a forced cleanup when Code Compliance comes around and says, "Do it, or else." At the least, his bond should be the sum of all those cleanup costs plus court and incarceration costs and a penalty for doing wrong. Then, when he's legally found guilty, the fine should be the same. If he can't come up with the fine then he cools his heels in jail for a while (which adds to his final bill) and then becomes an indentured servant to the city to be a one man cleanup crew for all the graffiti we can find.

Alot of his masterpieces have had to be covered over by the building owner.  Go to the Parkview (luckily for him , it is getting demolished)  he has at least a dozen VISIBLE tags there.. I can take you to at least a dozen in the Southside.  I hope he DOES have to clean them up as part of his sentencing. In any event , if this doesnt fix his attitude that doing this is cool, most likely , nothing will.

Quote from: Timkin on May 26, 2011, 01:06:10 AM
Alot of his masterpieces have had to be covered over by the building owner.  Go to the Parkview (luckily for him , it is getting demolished)  he has at least a dozen VISIBLE tags there.. I can take you to at least a dozen in the Southside.  I hope he DOES have to clean them up as part of his sentencing. In any event , if this doesnt fix his attitude that doing this is cool, most likely , nothing will.

Instead of jail, he should be sentenced to stay in the Parkview Inn until it's demolished. That'll teach him.

For all I know , he does stay there.

Kenneth Bell has been arrested for tagging before.  He was ROR and later pre-trialed to thirty days probation.  His tags started appearing again on the 31st day.  Mr. Shorstein's policy didn't seem to work.  He was even defiant enough to continue to use exactly the same tag.

I think Ms. Corey REALLY doesn't like scofflaws and is determined to get their attention and some behavior change.

Not a very smart young man :(

This morning the JSO arrested Brett Robert Bell, 27, the older brother of Kenneth Bell (SIKE)

Brett Robert Bell's tag was ATARI which can be seen in almost as many places as his younger brother's tags.  He has been charged with one felony count of criminal mischief and sixteen counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief.

Bond has not yet been set.

23 years old?  27 years old?  These are not kids!

On Monday, August 18, the Bell brothers, Kenneth, age 24 (SIKE) and Brett, age 28 (ATARI) were brought to trial.

Both pleaded guilty to all counts; two and one felonies counts of criminal mischief  respectively and over a dozen counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief each.  Kenneth had been in Duval County Jail for four months, Brett for three months.

They were sentenced to time served and three years supervised probation.  They were fined about $5,000 each.  As a condition of their probation they are not allowed to possess spray paint and are under a curfew from 11PM to 5AM daily.  Any violation of their probation will see them back in court for re-sentencing.

Angela Corey and her staff are obviously taking graffiti vandalism more seriously than her predecessor did.

^Good. I hope it gets the message across.

Mr. Dogwalker. the tags were different. get your facts right. and the curfews from 12pm to 5 am. the $5000 about right. 100 hours community service. SIKE has only been to jail for graffiti. The first time just havin a M3. Hes never been to jail for drugs, weapons, robbery, burglery, or any other crime. He paper work has things like "peace signs were painted" or different quotes including Martin L. King Jr, Einstein, and several other real leaders of a better world. He views were to inspire people and creat a more hopeful enviroment.

Graffiti is a huge culture. Graffitti is also the biggest art movement in history. The only art ever to be created by the youth. Spray paint is the artists next great tool. Its easy and convient. Everything will one day be done by a press of a button. For those who have their opinion about graffiti are probly wrong. Its not about destroying the city. The average graff artist wants their city to look BETTER, it just takes a long time before he or she can paint something "accepted by the public". Some writers paint because its against the law, some paint because their legit artists. Jacksonville does not have a legal wall were artists can go and just paint. There have been talks about it for years and yet I STILL have yet to see it. The among other illegal graffiti would go down dramatically if a place like this existed to the public.  And im still waiting. In the mean time, I do company paintings such as logos on the side of their building or a symbol. I also have dont painting for people such as Disney characters on a childs wall.
Any questions just ask. But please keep your mind open about graffiti and why it happends. It needs to be handled right, if not it can get out of hand. But at the same time, it can be a beautiful thing. What is art if not the ablility to express yourself. Graffiti artists risk their lives every night just to get the message across, i dont see anyone else doin that.....

Quote from: spankye3 on September 10, 2011, 10:40:03 PM
Mr. Dogwalker. the tags were different. get your facts right. and the curfews from 12pm to 5 am. the $5000 about right. 100 hours community service. SIKE has only been to jail for graffiti. The first time just havin a M3. Hes never been to jail for drugs, weapons, robbery, burglery, or any other crime. He paper work has things like "peace signs were painted" or different quotes including Martin L. King Jr, Einstein, and several other real leaders of a better world. He views were to inspire people and creat a more hopeful enviroment.

Graffiti is a huge culture. Graffitti is also the biggest art movement in history. The only art ever to be created by the youth. Spray paint is the artists next great tool. Its easy and convient. Everything will one day be done by a press of a button. For those who have their opinion about graffiti are probly wrong. Its not about destroying the city. The average graff artist wants their city to look BETTER, it just takes a long time before he or she can paint something "accepted by the public". Some writers paint because its against the law, some paint because their legit artists. Jacksonville does not have a legal wall were artists can go and just paint. There have been talks about it for years and yet I STILL have yet to see it. The among other illegal graffiti would go down dramatically if a place like this existed to the public.  And im still waiting. In the mean time, I do company paintings such as logos on the side of their building or a symbol. I also have dont painting for people such as Disney characters on a childs wall.
Any questions just ask. But please keep your mind open about graffiti and why it happends. It needs to be handled right, if not it can get out of hand. But at the same time, it can be a beautiful thing. What is art if not the ablility to express yourself. Graffiti artists risk their lives every night just to get the message across, i dont see anyone else doin that.....

Where can one see these "beautiful" or "inspirational" pieces of art you are talking about? Cuz so far the only "art" I've seen is where someone slapped their tagger name up on the side of someone elses property. 

Its gone. Graffiti only lasts a few days. You have to tarvel to see it. Writers can spend hours on a painting only for it to lasts hours on the wall. They leave it up to the enviroment. If a wall is built, maybe you can take some time and admire it then. But if not, its hard to see it. You have to be around the city a lot. The smaller "tags" are a lot smaller and a lot more abundent. But it takes the right kind of place to really put up some colorful work. And i will admit, there are places were graffiti writers have painted on open business'. Im not denying that, but those are the same people that give the rest bad names. Their are bad apples in a lot of different cultures.Bad mechanics, bad fishermen, and even bad police officers.But not all are this way.You cant think thats all thats out there. There is great art all over the city, but you have to look for it. But again, its hard to do something legally if theres not a legal place to do it. And the correct term is moniker. Not "tagger name".

spankye3, the Bell brothers were arrested for vandalizing people's property and public property.  Nothing they did was in the least artistic.

If someone wants to develop their artistic technique using spray paints, I suggest that they use the walls of their parents' house for practice.

Quote from: spankye3 on September 11, 2011, 01:23:06 AM
Its gone. Graffiti only lasts a few days. You have to tarvel to see it. Writers can spend hours on a painting only for it to lasts hours on the wall. They leave it up to the enviroment. If a wall is built, maybe you can take some time and admire it then. But if not, its hard to see it. You have to be around the city a lot. The smaller "tags" are a lot smaller and a lot more abundent. But it takes the right kind of place to really put up some colorful work. And i will admit, there are places were graffiti writers have painted on open business'. Im not denying that, but those are the same people that give the rest bad names. Their are bad apples in a lot of different cultures.Bad mechanics, bad fishermen, and even bad police officers.But not all are this way.You cant think thats all thats out there. There is great art all over the city, but you have to look for it. But again, its hard to do something legally if theres not a legal place to do it. And the correct term is moniker. Not "tagger name".

"Graffiti only lasts a few days." Really? Using some kind of magical spray-paint?

I guess much of the time you're correct, since the property owner has to go buy chemicals to clean it off.

But it doesn't just disappear on its own.

I happen to agree with you about the need for a legal wall though.

I don't agree, that any city, state, etc., should offer a free place for graffiti. If someone wants to spray paint, or use whatever they want to display their 'art', then do it on their own property. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for those who wish to deface the property of another. Just what makes anyone feel that this is something that we as a community should accept and provide a legal means for them?

Maybe I am confused, but I fail to see why a wall should be provided.  Why can't these 'artists' go to Walmart and buy some canvas to paint on?  Are we saying they are mentally incapable of not tagging buildings?  How about proactively asking a business if they could use a vacant back wall?  Or maybe that is a little too conformist and not quite underground cool enough?

Springfielder  beat me to the punch on that point I see.

I think some kind of community space for graffiti would be fine - but I'd like to point out that the two guys this thread is about are 24 and 28 years old. When you approach 30 you should, at that point, have formulated a more sophisticated method of expressing yourself artistically than spray painting someone else's property. These aren't children. These are "grown ass men" who should know better.

for example. Skateboarding, rollerblading, or biking or even car racing ALL started out in a place that was not "created" for it. But since a place was created, these people have a place to go do it and not on someone elses property. Is that not the same? There are places were you can go now such as skateparks or tracks. And these places are now not only widelt accepted but very much liked. A LOT of people like sports like that and things like NASCAR. Our society had the intelligence to reconize the need for a legal way to do these things and has adapted. For someone to say something as far as " there shouldnt be a legal place" is ignorant.

And if You havent noticed, since the graffiti movement started, it hasnt gone anywhere. If a legal wall is not built, IT WILL continue illegally. Thats how it is. But you have to realize, people have never been offered a chance to paint legally.

Bativac - A lot of graffiti writers such as myself have moved on to "more sophisticated" methods. I already mentioned that I have done several paintings by request from the owner of the property. In completely legal places with permission. The problem is that not everyone can do that, it takes a long time to develope the skill for complex paintings. Writers are used to having to run and hide while they paint or they are in they shouldnt be so they can take the time to paint something colorful or impressive. If there was a wall, painters could develope thier skills so they could eventually do painting for companies and not have to do it illegally at all.

JHAT76- Painting with aerosol are guite bigger than that of a painting done on canvass. A canvass usaully goes for about $40 for maybe a 2 by 3 foot canvass. The average writer just can not afford this. And well you might say something like "well get a job" or "dont do it then" but the fact is a lot of writers have jobs and spend a lot of money that most cant afford toward paint related items. Just because it makes THEM happy. And as far as the "dont do it" goes, you cant expect someone to stop doing something they absolutly love just because someone doesnt like it or doesnt appricaite it concept.

Graffiti is not goin to go anywhere. The same with drugs, voilence, or any crime unless it is handled properly. If you give someone who breaks the law a different way to do this original act but in a legal way, its can benefit everyone.

I do understand that I am in a room full of people that are generally agianst graffiti. Now what my goal is to explain a lot of things the best way I know how to maybe change the over all view as much as I can. Graffiti does not have to be illegal. It does not have to be on other peoples property, and it does not have to be against the best interested of the buildings owners.

The city of jacksonvile spends thousands and thousands of dollars trying to get rid of graffiti. That has failed. It might have slowed it down, but you can drive around jax right now and see it. But some of you rather spend that money rather than spend maybe $200 bucks to provide a wall so kids can go and paint......

As I understand it, there was a legal graffiti wall in 5 Points, provided by the building owner.  Did illegal graffiti on other surfaces stop?  No.  The taggers still defaced public and private property.  If another building owner wants to allow his wall to be used for graffiti, that's fine.  But it won't stop taggers.  I would guess that those who just scrawl their (sometimes intricate) initials or words, would not be welcome on a wall used by the artists, especially if they do it on top of the wall art.

But what you have to understand is that it starts with a tag. You dont just go from a unreadable tag to a mural. It doesnt happen. If you have a wall, it need to be open to people who can do both. If you have a wall where only skilled painter can paint, of coarse "tags" will continue. If any writers cant go and paint, its not going to help. The difference will be a Public Wall where it is open do all. Not a wall with an owner who only accepts the few who are capable of more defined work. That kind of wall doesnt help. MAYBE 1 out of 10 people who graffiti can produce paintings that the genearal public will consider art. The rest have to do it on the street on some illegal wall till they develope. A wall owned by a person who has a say over who paints it detroys the whole idea of why the wall is there in the first place. I mean really, do you think a real artist would rather paint illegally under the pressure and risk being caught or paint a wall where they can take their time and make it an amazing peice of art. 

I have a wall to paint, thats mine and is completely legal. Im not here for me. Im here to try and help the city and its people better understand the problem at hand. Obviously everything has not worked. Graffiti is still here and just covering it up doesnt make a person stop painting. I just happend to stumble on this site and had to voice my opinions.

But before you go and assume things, at least get an opinion from someone who really KNOWS about graffiti and its culture. Jacksonville along with a lot of other places has problems with graffiti but just doent know how to handle it yet. Other citys have legal places to paint all over and the amound of illegal spray paint is not nearly as high as jacksonville. At the same time, places that DID have a place set up and have taken down will state that the Graffiti has went back up since the wall has been taken down.

If the city REALLY wants to help this problem, they need to change what their doing because it doesnt solve the problem. They just cover it up and hope no one comes back to paint it again.

So, what you are saying is that the store owners and dumpster owners, and JEA and FDOT need to wait  long enough until real art happens on their structures, electric boxes, interstate highway? You are saying that the problem will disappear if people quit trying to clean up their stores and schools? You are saying that more and more tagging will lead to art? Wow.

did i say ANY of that??????? please point out anything of what i said that is in any relations to that......

Look. A legal wall will give people a chance to develpoe in a tolatlly legal and safe eniviroment. People wouldnt paint on illegal walls nearly as much if they had somewhere to go and paint. They can use this wall and if they choose to, develope their skills so that they can do painting for companys. It would take ONE DAY to build a wall. One day. The city cleans graffiti EVERYDAY.

What you just said has ABOSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with what i said. You need to reread what i stated (giving you the benifit of the doubt by assuming you read ANYTHING).

But what you siad speaks for itself. Good Job. You deffinetly know whats going on around you. Right.

Hey Spankye - I can kind of understand where you're coming from. I'm a professional illustrator and the son of a professional artist (a painter as a matter of fact) so I'm not talking as some bitter angry "git off my property" guy. I agree a free wall would be great - but who decides when to paint over that wall to allow the graffiti to begin anew? Or do we leave the wall as an artistic statement and build a new wall?

Either way, there is not a valid excuse for damaging somebody's property. Skateboarders, rollerbladers, bicyclists - these guys are generally not damaging somebody's property, so it's nowhere close to the same thing. But even in that case - what if they do damage something that somebody else owns? Isn't it their responsibility to repair it?

The best way to fight this is the property owners or the city repainting the graffiti as soon as it appears. The mayors of New York have spent significant time and money fighting the problem. Check this article out:

http://www.cooperator.com/articles/1201/1/The-Mayor8217s-Anti-Graffiti-Task-Force/Page1.html (http://www.cooperator.com/articles/1201/1/The-Mayor8217s-Anti-Graffiti-Task-Force/Page1.html)

As for the cost of canvas - yeah, canvas is pricey. So in high school, I bought big sheets of cheap plywood for large painting projects. If these guys can afford spray paint, they can afford a cheap piece of plywood.

Again - I agree it'd be great to give these artists a place to express themselves. But to excuse their vandalism because such a place doesn't exist is absurd.

well to start, skateboarders ect did do a lot of damage. the cost to repair a curb or a rail or to put a fence up is not nearly as much as the repainting of a wall. Not to mention the law suites to bussiness have to got thru becuase of some kid breakin and arm or leg because they fell on their property. But later on, people realize this and built skateparks so this wouldnt happen. The cost of one bucket of paint is about $20. A lawsuit can be thousands. To repair a curb and reconcrete it can be hundreds. Or a  new hand rail can be even more.

And im not sayin not having a legal wall is THE REASON people do it illegally. But it will make a significant difference in the amount that is actually illegal. You cant expect graffiti artist to paint for companies when they dont have a way to get to that level. Legal walls will help make that transition from garbage on bussiness to murals for companys.

And as far as the painting of a wall, paint covers paint. No one has to keep repainting it. You let it be. Graffiti writers often paint over walls that already have been painted. Thats not a problem. You build a wall, and forget about it. The writers will maintain it. If its in a public place, everyone has the right to paint.

unlike others forms of art, graffiti writers use a lot more space. far more really. I have tried to push the the idea of jacksonville having legals wall for sometime now. Im tyring to work with the city to make this happen. I offer the money out of my own pocket to pay for these things to happen. I can built it. No problem. Its just getting it approved. But sooner or later, theyll have to do something. all it takes is a few peices of plywood your right. But not everyone is going to do that. People are a lot more likely to go and paint a legal wall than to spend money out of pocket. Realistically. 

Again, having a place to paint will not "fix the problem". People will always break the law and people will always do what they are told not to. This is fact. It is part of our system. The jail, police, judges, public defenders, state attorneys, prosecuters NEED this to happen to maintain thers jobs. But thats a whole different topic. Our system is flawed. Period.

Free walls have been tried in a lot of communities around the country.  They don't work very well (www.graffitihurts.org).  All of the streets leading to the walls gradually get covered up with tags too because the wall fills up.

But maybe someone is missing a business opportunity.  Rather than a "free" wall what if someone were to set up a "pay" wall?  Take and old warehouse with a big blank wall.  Fence it off.  Allow entrance for X dollars per session.  It doesn't need to be much.  Have people take spray paint and practice all they want and take pictures of it.  When the wall get filled, paint it out to create a fresh surface and repeat.

Do you think this would reduce the amount of tagging of public surfaces  that occurs?  Me either.  But it would let real artists have a place and let a property owner make a bit of profit.

Quote from: Dog Walker on March 25, 2011, 05:38:06 PM
Early Thursday morning, JSO arrested Bryson Dale Bowman, 22, while he was putting up one of his distinctive, metallic paint SIMON tags.

Bowman, the son of the owner of Jaguar Bail Bonds, has so far been charged with two counts of felony criminal mischief and seven counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief.  More charges may be filed as information comes in from other parts of the city about damage there.

A JSO spokesman says that Bowman has done over a hundred-thousand dollars worth of damage in the City.

Bowman was released on $25,000 bond from Jaguar Bail Bonds.

So it this good or bad news??? Many major cities these sort of artist. Im fine with them as long as they hit the right things and not the wrong things.

Quote from: Timkin on March 25, 2011, 09:19:44 PM
tags...everywhere .. and seems they love tagging buildings.  If you want to see 40 years of graffiti , visit School 4 . its completely covered inside. Now they are working on the outside.  Some may consider it art.. tagging buildings , dumpsters, whatever, is, at least to me, a nuisance at best.

I am not a big fan of the tagging, but I guess there is a lot worse they could be doing. Id like to see the graph work.

Dogwalker- its good to know at least your trying to deal with this in what seems to be an optimistic nature. Thats not a bad idea at all. These are the kinds of ideas that needs to be talked about.
Graffiti is going to happen. But there needs to be better ways of controling it.

And about the "graffiti hurts" website, all you have to done is look at the name of the site and OF COARSE its going to say a legal doesnt help. That website is opinoin based and not fact based. It will talk about all the cases and times it hasnt worked and not the times it has. You need more than one website (that obviously is against it) to have a justifiable opinion whether or not it will work. Their not going to state how good it worked....

Public walls may be good for some things and can be really cool community features, but the general consensus appears to be that they don't do anything to stop graffiti vandalism elsewhere. The famous de facto free wall on 34th Street in Gainesville certainly hasn't stopped vandals from hitting up other areas of town. For one thing, a lot of people who paint on it are the types who would never vandalize a non-free space; it also attracts people from out of town who would otherwise not have come all the way to Gainesville just to spray paint a wall. It's a local institution, but it hasn't done a thing to curb or channel graffiti vandalism in the city.

The idea that graffiti is only temporary is absolutely absurd. Some stunted little felons disgraced the Tovar House and the Castillo San Marcos in St. Augustine with their stupid tags a while ago. There's no way to clean it off without crumbling the walls, it will be there forever.

I for one don't care if those savages go on to be the next Banksy, the damage they've done to historic architecture is irreversible.

Quote from: spankye3 on September 11, 2011, 11:59:25 PM
Dogwalker- its good to know at least your trying to deal with this in what seems to be an optimistic nature. Thats not a bad idea at all. These are the kinds of ideas that needs to be talked about.
Graffiti is going to happen. But there needs to be better ways of controling it.

And about the "graffiti hurts" website, all you have to done is look at the name of the site and OF COARSE its going to say a legal doesnt help. That website is opinoin based and not fact based. It will talk about all the cases and times it hasnt worked and not the times it has. You need more than one website (that obviously is against it) to have a justifiable opinion whether or not it will work. Their not going to state how good it worked....

The Graffiti Hurts organization is a part of Keep America Beautiful, Inc. and the major funder is Sherman-Williams, the makers of Krylon spray paint.  They have funded sociological research from major universities about graffiti and have learned that it harms communities, hurts business and lower property values.  They have very good recommendations about how to control graffiti, publish model legislation re: graffiti and what kinds of programs work to de-glamorize graffiti.

Graffiti tagging is not the start of some great artistic career.  It is property vandalism fueled by rebellion and disrespect social norms by those who have nothing valuable of their own and is very, very frequently a "gateway" crime that leads to more serious ones. 

There are serious artists who use spray paint as a medium.  They do not spray their paint in places where it is not wanted.

That you defend graffiti vandalism in any form reveals your own immaturity and lack of serious artistic intent.  Graffiti is about "showing off" not about art.

 What I believe.. Are there are 2 sides to this story, of which both hold valuable points. You have the side of the artist & the one of the concerned citizen. I don't agree with vandalism, nor approve. But at the same time I am torn between these two very relative arguments.

You see, as one who isn't the artist, you have to put yourself in their shoes. Alot of artist do graffiti, simply to stay occupied, to stay out of trouble even. They get bored, try something and become obsessed. Some do it as a rebellion against authority, for watever reason, and those are generally a nuisance. Personally I don't have a problem with graffiti, some of it I find interesting. But I'm also not a business owner.

As one who is the artist, you must understand not everyones view of art is the same and not everyone will approve or understand you. also not many are likely to agree or sympathize with one they view an ongoing nuisance.

The point is graffiti is everywhere. Wether there be a legal place to do it (which could improve it) or not, it's gonna be there. There really is no stopping it. I think as a community we should expect it, and accept it's something that will always be dealt with.

Key factor:  one thing you folks need to realize, is these "real artist" you speak of weren't born with paint in their hands. If fact I guarantee 90 percent of the artists you admire started out as a "pain in the ass tagger nuisance". Gotta get ahead some how.

Art is limitless.. Not all artist can be contained.

If Jacksonville city officials really cared how our city looked... Our downtown area would be improved including a few other areas. The majority of vandalism of all sorts is portrayed in the downtown area due to the fact that it is so often ignored. Our tax dollars could be very well better placed. They want to spend all this time money and effort on such a nonviolent crime, Yet take sports out of schools. What do you think these kids will do now? Probably paint a building or possibly find a worse crime to occupy their time. .........Just think about it!

Just because graffiti is everywhere, it should be legalized? or at the very least, accept it? Really.... So we should just accept any level of vandalism, just because it happens? That's crap! If a property owner wants so offer up free space for it, that's their choice, but it certainly shouldn't be something that as a whole, should be expected. These 'artists' cause property owners a lot of money, and it's wrong. Why don't they rent wall space?

QuoteAlot of artist do graffiti, simply to stay occupied, to stay out of trouble even. They get bored, try something and become obsessed. Some do it as a rebellion against authority, for watever reason, and those are generally a nuisance.

These are simply excuses for vandals.  Graffiti on property that is not yours is vandalism... pure and simple.  Vandals who are caught need to be prosecuted, fined, and forced to undo the theirs and others graffiti and tags. 

1) Vandalism ≠ Art

2) Graffiti ≠ Art

3) (in very rare instances) Graffiti = Art = Vandalism

4) Those artists assume the risk of criminal prosecution. This ain't rocket surgery, folks.

Quote from: Go skate fatty on September 13, 2011, 02:42:46 AM
What I believe.. Are there are 2 sides to this story, of which both hold valuable points. You have the side of the artist & the one of the concerned citizen. I don't agree with vandalism, nor approve. But at the same time I am torn between these two very relative arguments.

Artist are not vandals and vandals are not artists.

QuoteYou see, as one who isn't the artist, you have to put yourself in their shoes. Alot of artist do graffiti, simply to stay occupied, to stay out of trouble even. They get bored, try something and become obsessed. Some do it as a rebellion against authority, for watever reason, and those are generally a nuisance. Personally I don't have a problem with graffiti, some of it I find interesting. But I'm also not a business owner.

So to understand Bonnie and Clyde one must become Bonnie and Clyde? If the 'artist' is so bad that 'they get bored' then its time to learn another skill.

QuoteAs one who is the artist, you must understand not everyones view of art is the same and not everyone will approve or understand you. also not many are likely to agree or sympathize with one they view an ongoing nuisance.

Understanding your art is a completely different proposition then 'understanding' that you have a primal need to tresspass and vandalize the property of others.

QuoteThe point is graffiti is everywhere. Wether there be a legal place to do it (which could improve it) or not, it's gonna be there. There really is no stopping it. I think as a community we should expect it, and accept it's something that will always be dealt with.

There is no stopping theft, robbery, murder or rape either, so by your logic we should expect it and accept it?

QuoteKey factor:  one thing you folks need to realize, is these "real artist" you speak of weren't born with paint in their hands. If fact I guarantee 90 percent of the artists you admire started out as a "pain in the ass tagger nuisance". Gotta get ahead some how.

It's true that 'real artists' were not born with paint in their hands, but they were born with enough talent that they don't need to destroy other peoples property. No one 'gets ahead' by committing crimes.

QuoteArt is limitless.. Not all artist can be contained.

So buy your own property and set yourself free, try this crap at my house and your going to be arrested.

QuoteIf Jacksonville city officials really cared how our city looked... Our downtown area would be improved including a few other areas. The majority of vandalism of all sorts is portrayed in the downtown area due to the fact that it is so often ignored. Our tax dollars could be very well better placed. They want to spend all this time money and effort on such a nonviolent crime, Yet take sports out of schools. What do you think these kids will do now? Probably paint a building or possibly find a worse crime to occupy their time. .........Just think about it

Why spend any money improving downtown when a band of foolish little immature 'artists' are just going to make the whole place look like an upholstered sewer? Your crime of choice may be nonviolent, but it leaves a string of victims. 5 gallons of any decent paint is well over $100 dollars, how many of those dollars will it take to clean up after these criminals? Imagine if all of that money could be spent on high school sports, athletes would still be athletes and criminal vandals would still be criminal vandals. I'll agree to live with your graffiti when you agree to live in my garbage can.

OCKLAWAHA

You know what, after this kid and/or his friends showed up here with blood-boiling false justifications, I don't feel bad anymore. There is very little graffiti art in Jacksonville. 99% of it, including the two in this case, are douchebags running around spraypainting their name all over other peoples' property. It's not art. If they want to continue doing it, take the risk of arrest.

 what none of you saw was my beginning statement. I do not agree with vandalism nor condone it. Nor do I participate in it. I said accept it not meaning accept graffiti. Just know it's gonna happen and get over it. I'm sorry but as a property owner, you have to accept vandalism is a possibility. Of course call the city and report it, I'm not saying not to, but I think it's funny you all are so passionatly against something you can't, and won't ever try to fix.

I'm not making any excuses for vandals or artist by naming reasons why they do it. I'm simply trying to persuade you to be more open minded of the perspective of the other side. 

In able to fully understand any of this debate, you first have to look at it from that perspective, otherwise everything you say is one sided.

To compare theft, murder and rape with spray paint on a wall is a bit ignorant, and tad bit rash don't you think? I never even said they shouldn't be punished,  a crime is a crime. What I did say is, you have alot to say about an act that you have not even BEGAN to try and understand.

You think you got it all figured out, like you know all about it. The reality is youre speaking on pure opinion of a mostly one sided topic. It sure is easy having the majority vote, huh?

Lets compare something a bit more close in size.
Piracy of music and dvds is something done daily, but I bet you don't think these people should suffer. Who cares if they steal from artists and make profits that aren't rightfully theres right? Because artist are rich? But those people wouldnt be rich without people actually buying thier stuff.  This is STEALING. The point is people have so much to say about little crimes other people do but look over the little crimes they do everyday. Before you look at someone else and judge them, you need to judge yourself. It's easy to point fingers and degrade when everyone else is doing it. If everyone in this topic was all about graffiti, I wonder where you would stand. Hmm.

Don't jump down my throat because my opinion isn't just like yours. If youre really so passionate about it, if you give a crap how jacksonville looks go out there and do something about it! Get off your fat a** and go clean some walls!

As a matter of fact, I spent about two hours yesterday morning painting out tags from the walls of some local businesses.  I do know what I am talking about.

You are correct about there being two sides to the issue.  It's called the right side and wrong side.

Quote from: Go skate fatty on September 14, 2011, 11:56:29 PM
what none of you saw was my beginning statement. I do not agree with vandalism nor condone it. Nor do I participate in it. I said accept it not meaning accept graffiti. Just know it's gonna happen and get over it. I'm sorry but as a property owner, you have to accept vandalism is a possibility. Of course call the city and report it, I'm not saying not to, but I think it's funny you all are so passionatly against something you can't, and won't ever try to fix.

Nobody accepts vandalism, the reality is you don't fix it by creating a park for people to trash. You don't fix graffiti by making a spot to 'tag' free of penalty. 

QuoteLets compare something a bit more close in size.
Piracy of music and dvds is something done daily, but I bet you don't think these people should suffer. Who cares if they steal from artists and make profits that aren't rightfully theres right? Because artist are rich? But those people wouldnt be rich without people actually buying thier stuff.  This is STEALING. The point is people have so much to say about little crimes other people do but look over the little crimes they do everyday. Before you look at someone else and judge them, you need to judge yourself. It's easy to point fingers and degrade when everyone else is doing it. If everyone in this topic was all about graffiti, I wonder where you would stand. Hmm.

Where do I stand? As a published author of several books and thousands of pages of articles I see it as theft, pure and simple, and it is against the law.

QuoteDon't jump down my throat because my opinion isn't just like yours. If youre really so passionate about it, if you give a crap how jacksonville looks go out there and do something about it! Get off your fat a** and go clean some walls!

Your the one with the immature passion that is trying to justify a criminal act. Your the one that started name calling when I called a crime (rape, robbery etc.) a crime.  I do something about it, it's called 911, try it at my house and it's called Smith and Wesson. Once again, your rights end at my property line.

OCKLAWAHA

Tacachale - that I agree with, some people are so disrespectful.

Dog walker- I think it's great you help clean up our city. I now know why you find this so annoying.


Ocklawaha- As an author I would expect you to be a little more observant of my words. I've never said building a wall was the solution, to me that would be a waste of tax dollars. The solution, obviously isn't found... Doesn't seem like youre trying to do it either. Another thing, you clearly assumed I was a painter. I never used those words. Graffiti is not "my immature criminal act". I'm not trying to bust your balls but as an author, of several books, you really seem bad at comprehending. Does this mean your research is full of assumed facts and misinterpreted statements? I'd love to read these books and articles, what is your name?

Well, I certainly agree that vandalism is a problem that isn't going away. I also believe that part of the problem is that the perps generally have no concept of how much damage they actually do. But there's a difference between acknowledging a problem, and accepting it as permissible.

My points were simply stated.

1. Nobody 'accepts' vandalism in the form of graffiti
2. You can't fix it by making it legal in a park
3. That I agree that intellectual property theft is a crime
4. You are the one passionately defending graffiti
5. That I call a crime a crime no matter how trivial or severe
6. The solution is simply calling 911
7. Anyone vandalizing property in my house is liable to be shot
8. The 'right' to break the law ends at my property line

Amazing!

OCKLAWAHA

You said it, Ock! It's illegal, and it's costly to whomever has to clean and/or repaint because some moron decided it was okay to spray paint on property that does not belong to them. So I'm not at all interested in hearing the other side, like DW said, there's two sides...right and wrong, and intentionally defacing someones property, is wrong! Unless you're (meaning the vandals) are painting their own property, their 'art' is not welcomed.

Quote from: Springfielder on September 15, 2011, 06:45:21 PM
You said it, Ock! It's illegal, and it's costly to whomever has to clean and/or repaint because some moron decided it was okay to spray paint on property that does not belong to them. So I'm not at all interested in hearing the other side, like DW said, there's two sides...right and wrong, and intentionally defacing someones property, is wrong! Unless you're (meaning the vandals) are painting their own property, their 'art' is not welcomed.

That's really what kills it.

Somehow, it's never their own place these guys are spraypainting, is it?

I'm sorry, but I couldn't help remembering the scene in the gang movie "Colors" with Sean Penn and Robert Duvall playing cops, when Sean (Pac-Man) spray paints the taggers face green with his own can after asking him why he didn't deface the beautiful Catholic religious Graffiti on the opposite side of the street.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/313160_278390302172571_100000048118232_1118408_1642151945_n.jpg)

 ;D 8) Great!!!!

how many of you ignorant people have EVER done graffiti?! how many besides dogwalker actually DO SOMETHING to change whats happening?! how many in here REALLY even KNOW what graffiti is all about?! my guess is NONE. before you type anymore on here. you should really look inward and ask yourself what you do wrong each and everyday and how much it effects the people around you.

I tried to open your eyes about graffiti. i triedf to tell you its not just taggin on illegal walls. im done. %99 of you are some of the most ignorant people i have ever read about. wow. its easy to piont fingers huh? The same people you speak about are the same people that help the homeless. That are working WITH THE CITY to help improve jacksonville. I know "vandals" that do more to make this city a better place than MANY MANY of you. they dont just post about it.

graffiti is not going anywhere. there are many clothing company, web desinger, graffic artists who have develpoed their skills DIRECTLY form graffiti. It is being more accepted across America and is being used in more and more ways every day. If your tryin to completely stop graffiti. YOU WILL FAIL. PERIOD.

By the way, when Alexander the Great went to the Great Pyramid of Giza, he carved his name at the top. Do you think we asked the Indians if we could carve our forfathers in Mount Rushmore, or you think we just did it. Graffiti has ALWAYS been there. And its go nowhere real fast.

Quote from: spankye3 on September 21, 2011, 10:41:15 PM
how many of you ignorant people have EVER done graffiti?! how many besides dogwalker actually DO SOMETHING to change whats happening?! how many in here REALLY even KNOW what graffiti is all about?! my guess is NONE. before you type anymore on here. you should really look inward and ask yourself what you do wrong each and everyday and how much it effects the people around you.

I tried to open your eyes about graffiti. i triedf to tell you its not just taggin on illegal walls. im done. %99 of you are some of the most ignorant people i have ever read about. wow. its easy to piont fingers huh? The same people you speak about are the same people that help the homeless. That are working WITH THE CITY to help improve jacksonville. I know "vandals" that do more to make this city a better place than MANY MANY of you. they dont just post about it.

graffiti is not going anywhere. there are many clothing company, web desinger, graffic artists who have develpoed their skills DIRECTLY form graffiti. It is being more accepted across America and is being used in more and more ways every day. If your tryin to completely stop graffiti. YOU WILL FAIL. PERIOD.

By the way, when Alexander the Great went to the Great Pyramid of Giza, he carved his name at the top. Do you think we asked the Indians if we could carve our forfathers in Mount Rushmore, or you think we just did it. Graffiti has ALWAYS been there. And its go nowhere real fast.

If it's so awesome, why don't these guys just spraypaint their own houses and be done with it then? Why others' property?

I don't think we're dealing with a 'young adult' here, seems much more like a preteen child. The reasoning that people that choose not to distroy other peoples property and are thus fundamentally against graffiti are 'ignorant.'
This kid is a piece of work, it would be knee slapping funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 21, 2011, 11:10:42 PM

Quote from: spankye3 on September 21, 2011, 10:41:15 PM
how many of you ignorant people have EVER done graffiti?! how many besides dogwalker actually DO SOMETHING to change whats happening?! how many in here REALLY even KNOW what graffiti is all about?! my guess is NONE. before you type anymore on here. you should really look inward and ask yourself what you do wrong each and everyday and how much it effects the people around you.

I tried to open your eyes about graffiti. i triedf to tell you its not just taggin on illegal walls. im done. %99 of you are some of the most ignorant people i have ever read about. wow. its easy to piont fingers huh? The same people you speak about are the same people that help the homeless. That are working WITH THE CITY to help improve jacksonville. I know "vandals" that do more to make this city a better place than MANY MANY of you. they dont just post about it.

graffiti is not going anywhere. there are many clothing company, web desinger, graffic artists who have develpoed their skills DIRECTLY form graffiti. It is being more accepted across America and is being used in more and more ways every day. If your tryin to completely stop graffiti. YOU WILL FAIL. PERIOD.

By the way, when Alexander the Great went to the Great Pyramid of Giza, he carved his name at the top. Do you think we asked the Indians if we could carve our forfathers in Mount Rushmore, or you think we just did it. Graffiti has ALWAYS been there. And its go nowhere real fast.

If it's so awesome, why don't these guys just spraypaint their own houses and be done with it then? Why others' property?

The straw man here is the attempt to obfuscate:

"you should really look inward and ask yourself what you do wrong each and everyday and how much it effects the people around you."

"The same people you speak about are the same people that help the homeless."

The topic here is graffiti and no matter how it is spun, the act is still illegal. The writer conveniently ignores the facts that graffiti is hurtful, in spite of being a stepping stone for a "budding" artist. It is hurtful to the owners of buildings that have been spray painted, even if it was a Michelangelo quality mural, because the law holds the owner responsible and forces him to either remove or cover over the so-called "art" or be subject to fines or liens. An architectural treasure so defaced would make any argument for indiscriminate graffiti specious.

I don't care how much someone helps the homeless, it's nothing more than a diversion from the topic.

If you want another straw man... I think in order to hone my martial arts skills I have to take it from the dojo to the street and beat up some one there because the rules of engagement are not so strict. Or, all those rules at the firing range hamper my ability to function on the street. I'm going to pick on some real moving targets, instead.

Quote from: spankye3how many of you ignorant people have EVER done graffiti?! how many besides dogwalker actually DO SOMETHING to change whats happening?! how many in here REALLY even KNOW what graffiti is all about?! my guess is NONE. before you type anymore on here. you should really look inward and ask yourself what you do wrong each and everyday and how much it effects the people around you.

I tried to open your eyes about graffiti. i triedf to tell you its not just taggin on illegal walls. im done. %99 of you are some of the most ignorant people i have ever read about. wow. its easy to piont fingers huh? The same people you speak about are the same people that help the homeless. That are working WITH THE CITY to help improve jacksonville. I know "vandals" that do more to make this city a better place than MANY MANY of you. they dont just post about it.

graffiti is not going anywhere. there are many clothing company, web desinger, graffic artists who have develpoed their skills DIRECTLY form graffiti. It is being more accepted across America and is being used in more and more ways every day. If your tryin to completely stop graffiti. YOU WILL FAIL. PERIOD.

By the way, when Alexander the Great went to the Great Pyramid of Giza, he carved his name at the top. Do you think we asked the Indians if we could carve our forfathers in Mount Rushmore, or you think we just did it. Graffiti has ALWAYS been there. And its go nowhere real fast.

Your ignorance is showing, by your attempts to justify criminal actions, which is evidenced by the references given. Speaking of ignorant.....all you've tried to do is justify the morons that are breaking the law and causing damage to someone elses property, including tax payers who end up having to pay for the clean up. Then you try to turn the guilt around onto those of us law abiding citizens, because we don't accept your attempt to justify what is a criminal act.

No, I've never spray painted or defaced property, so your flimsy attempt has failed. As for DW being the only one who does something...wrong again. Although I'm not in support of offering up these criminals a free place to deface, and would support the law being even more stringent when dealing with the morons that deface property.

Graffiti may still continue to happen, and those impacted will still have to clean up their property and tax payers will still have to pay for what others have done wrong. Such is the vicious cycle caused by criminals and those who have no respect for others.

Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2011, 11:24:44 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 21, 2011, 11:17:58 PM
I don't think we're dealing with a 'young adult' here, seems much more like a preteen child. The reasoning that people that choose not to distroy other peoples property and are thus fundamentally against graffiti are 'ignorant.'
This kid is a piece of work, it would be knee slapping funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


OCKLAWAHA

I am hardly in my preteens, and you are just plain ignoring the clear words that the poster is speaking.

Everyone wants to talk about taggers defacing someone's property, and ignore the larger art.

I will requote the following:
i tried to tell you its not just taggin on illegal walls

Its just disrespectful to ignore what spankye is saying and then attack a straw man.

It would be just as fair to attack public transportation on the basis of perceived skyway failures.

Some of the best art produced in this city has been made by graffiti artists and we celebrate it in several of the neighborhoods.

I certainly prefer seeing graffiti covering decrepit old buildings to the left behind industrial blight of absentee landlords.

Spankye, there are a lot of people on here who feel the same.

...And obviously I wasn't talking about you Stephen. I also am not arguing that there is no artistic value in their work, my point being that their rights end at my property line. Only a child would defend a susposed right to distroy property based solely on some primal urge.

The Lions here at he bridge in St. Augustine were just recently spray painted with red eyes, and it is taking a small fortune to clean them up. There is simply nothing, that makes this right. The Lions are @50 thousand dollars each, if this kid wants to paint some then he can go buy his own.

Some time back we ran photos of some graffiti art that was actually beautiful, but doing this without permission is illegal. The answer is that the art in those photos is good enough to be welcomed on many buildings and the artist would have little trouble finding lots of locations to legally perform his work or even be paid for it. Bottom line is if your good enough, there will be a demand for your art, all I'm saying is get permission first.  

OCKLAWAHA

With all respect, Stephen.  None of the stuff I have cleaned up or painted over comes anywhere near "art".  It is just someone's made up name spray painted on someone's building; a stylized signature if you will, a "tag".  The few attempts at representing something are usually crude genitalia or look like a ten year old trying to draw monsters.

Maybe there are some budding spray paint artists out there and I have seen pictures of "street art" that do qualify as art, but not here in Jacksonville so far.  You know that I am an art collector and have some notion of what qualifies.  I can show you pictures of what we get around here and you would agree with me.

Bowman and the Bell brothers were certainly not trying to be "artistic", but were just putting their street names on every possible surface they could reach.  My male dog does much the same thing on every vertical surface, but that's certainly not art.

Writing your street names in balloon letters in bright colors ain't art.   And there is something about the illegality of the act that is part of the motivation and that's not an artistic impulse.

But some, like Spankye3, ARE trying to conflate tagging with art.  I know you don't.

Also unaddressed by you is why even the "artistic" wannabes insist on practicing on buildings other than their own or their families or where they get permission or on a couple of sheets of plywood set up in their back yard.  There is obviously something attractive about being "outlaw".  It's not just the style of the stuff.  Even in places where there have been free walls, the outlaw painting still exists and even expands into the surrounding community.

I don't get the attraction myself, but it's been a very, very long time since I was the age of most of these jerks.

Quote from: spankye3 on September 21, 2011, 10:41:15 PM
how many of you ignorant people have EVER.......

Whats with the name calling buddy??

Quote from: spankye3 on September 11, 2011, 01:23:06 AM
Its gone. Graffiti only lasts a few days. You have to tarvel to see it. Writers can spend hours on a painting only for it to lasts hours on the wall. They leave it up to the enviroment. If a wall is built, maybe you can take some time and admire it then. But if not, its hard to see it. You have to be around the city a lot. The smaller "tags" are a lot smaller and a lot more abundent. But it takes the right kind of place to really put up some colorful work. And i will admit, there are places were graffiti writers have painted on open business'. Im not denying that, but those are the same people that give the rest bad names. Their are bad apples in a lot of different cultures.Bad mechanics, bad fishermen, and even bad police officers.But not all are this way.You cant think thats all thats out there. There is great art all over the city, but you have to look for it. But again, its hard to do something legally if theres not a legal place to do it. And the correct term is moniker. Not "tagger name".

I see your point man. I agree with what you are saying. Do you guys ever do stuff like this?

(http://www.photographyrea.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Train-Graffiti-Wildstyle-Art-Spray.jpg)

(http://www.deviantart.com/download/136648609/SUGRE___Train_Graffiti_Artist_by_graffitiartontrains.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G3dSFRyIhRk/SWrvzUuEfcI/AAAAAAAABgc/XBFhE2yOq0k/s400/graffiti+vimoas.jpg)
Trains are my favorite places to see that sort of stuff lol.....I just like it!!! Call me whatever name yall want, but spray paint on trains is gnarly ha ha ha ha and I pay my taxes.

Quote from: stephendare on September 24, 2011, 06:32:01 PM

Quote from: Dog Walker on September 24, 2011, 03:42:22 PM
But some, like Spankye3, ARE trying to conflate tagging with art.  I know you don't.

Also unaddressed by you is why even the "artistic" wannabes insist on practicing on buildings other than their own or their families or where they get permission or on a couple of sheets of plywood set up in their back yard.  There is obviously something attractive about being "outlaw".  It's not just the style of the stuff.  Even in places where there have been free walls, the outlaw painting still exists and even expands into the surrounding community.

I don't get the attraction myself, but it's been a very, very long time since I was the age of most of these jerks.

meh.  the idea that tagging 'expands' from graffiti, even where there are free walls is just cop talk, DogWalker.

Study after study shows that free walls slow down the vandalism and the tagging.  They really are two different groups of people in most places anyways.  It would be like thinking that cutting down on the number of tennis players will keep baseball teams from forming.  Im sure if you are draconian enough about sports with balls that are about the size of oranges, that would be true, but only if you are willing to imprison all kids with balls.

Free Walls promote personal and community pride, and from those feelings come a lot of other good things.

And don''t forget that there is another element here, and that is absentee landlords and demolition by neglect.

Which do you think was worse for School Number 4? The taggers or the property owner that called the cops for 'vandalizing' a building that he watched the roof collapse on?

Not so sure, Stephen.  Here are two items from Keep America Beautiful that are slightly contradictory to one another.  I'm not sure what the difference is between a "free wall" and a "community paint brush mural".  Why not a "spray paint mural"  like Thurston's?  That has seemed to work here.

Quote6. Do legal walls really work?

Communities that have tried "legal" or "free walls," or areas that permit graffiti, typically find them ineffective, including over a dozen cities in California, Illinois, Connecticut, and other states.

While well intentioned, legal walls often cause more harm than good, and tend to attract graffiti vandals from outside the city. They may appear to work at first, but after a period of time, the surrounding areas also become covered with graffiti.

With a legal wall, governments or businesses essentially sponsor graffiti in an effort to rid a community of graffiti. This sends a mixed message. Data also shows no decrease in arrests for graffiti in cities where there are legal walls.

Communities that want to create a "legal" wall should be ready to take responsibility for any number of adverse effects, or liability and negligence issues. Following are just a few to consider:

    Who will monitor the wall?
    Will it be repainted regularly to provide a fresh "canvas"?
    What if someone writes obscenities on the wall? What action would be taken?
    What if the graffiti moves to walls nearby or surrounding the "legal wall"? Who will pay for removal? Who will ensure the safety of those removing graffiti?
    Who is allowed to use the "legal wall"? Will they be required to wear face masks? How will any "rules" be enforced?
    Are there laws in place that restrict possession of graffiti implement by minors?

Then somewhere else they say this: 

QuoteCommunity paint-brush murals can be an effective prevention strategy. Although they are occasionally defaced by graffiti, they instill a sense of pride among youth and other community members who have helped create them.

You are still not responding to everyone's observation that "pieces" (5% of graffiti nationally)  and "tags" (85% of graffiti nationally)  always seem to be put on someones property besides that of the graffiti vandal or his family, but always on someplace that belongs to someone else.  Why is the outlaw aspect such an integral part of graffiti crew culture?

And for those of you who have added up the percentages; the other 10% is gang graffiti.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 24, 2011, 07:22:13 PM

Quote from: spankye3 on September 11, 2011, 01:23:06 AM
Its gone. Graffiti only lasts a few days. You have to tarvel to see it. Writers can spend hours on a painting only for it to lasts hours on the wall. They leave it up to the enviroment. If a wall is built, maybe you can take some time and admire it then. But if not, its hard to see it. You have to be around the city a lot. The smaller "tags" are a lot smaller and a lot more abundent. But it takes the right kind of place to really put up some colorful work. And i will admit, there are places were graffiti writers have painted on open business'. Im not denying that, but those are the same people that give the rest bad names. Their are bad apples in a lot of different cultures.Bad mechanics, bad fishermen, and even bad police officers.But not all are this way.You cant think thats all thats out there. There is great art all over the city, but you have to look for it. But again, its hard to do something legally if theres not a legal place to do it. And the correct term is moniker. Not "tagger name".

I see your point man. I agree with what you are saying. Do you guys ever do stuff like this?

(http://www.photographyrea.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Train-Graffiti-Wildstyle-Art-Spray.jpg)

(http://www.deviantart.com/download/136648609/SUGRE___Train_Graffiti_Artist_by_graffitiartontrains.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G3dSFRyIhRk/SWrvzUuEfcI/AAAAAAAABgc/XBFhE2yOq0k/s400/graffiti+vimoas.jpg)
Trains are my favorite places to see that sort of stuff lol.....I just like it!!! Call me whatever name yall want, but spray paint on trains is gnarly ha ha ha ha and I pay my taxes.

Cooly,  In five years I have seen only three "pieces" that even approach the skill of those you have pictured and they were evidently done by people passing through town because I've never seen them again.  They were also on the retaining walls of I-10 and I-95 which makes me think the same.  Even the most elaborate stuff done inside Annie Lytle is just balloon letters and simpler tags.  There is nothing even vaguely pictorial or 3-D.  What we see around here are tags and crude, monochromatic drawings of faces and penises.  There are a couple of those on the columns at the front of Annie Lytle right now.  My six year old niece can draw better.

JSO tells me that in the past several years they have only seen "gang" graffiti in our three county area about half a dozen times and that was from our local "wannabe" gangs.  That is a national statistic.  I am sure that in some places like South Los Angeles, it's much higher than 10%.  Don't know who was passing out the BS about 175 gangs and satanism before.  Sounds like something Dale Carson, Sr. would have spread around by the shovelful.

We don't have real gangs or gang graffiti here.  We also defy another national statistic that says that 90% of graffiti vandals are between 16-19 years old.  The majority of those arrested around here are over 21.  Not juveniles, but just adolescent thinkers.  Go figure.

BTW, in my smoking days of long ago, bongs weren't yet popular.  We always used Rizla papers.  :o

The only thing "breathtaking" about what is being done now is how breathtakingly ugly it is and the breathtaking disrespect it shows for the businesses on whose storefronts it is scribbled.

You are still avoiding my point about the outlaw attraction!    ;D

You are dodging, Stephen!   ::)

Shawn Thurston's work is fantastic and you know I think so.  :-*  He is also not spray painting on other peoples walls now.  He grew out of that phase both artistically and morally. 

I have no idea what kind of work was being done ten or twenty years ago.  The stuff being done by the vandals now IS crap and less than 5% of it (national average!) is pieces.  Guess our graffiti community has regressed.  I could show you pictures, but won't post them.

Cooly,  Annie Lytle is creepy and dangerous!  Stay out!

Stephen's point about the owner's years of neglect being a much worse crime than the graffiti inside is exactly right and anyone going in risks serious injury.

Quote from: stephendare on September 25, 2011, 01:59:25 PM

Quote from: Dog Walker on September 25, 2011, 01:50:57 PM
You are dodging, Stephen!   ::)

Shawn Thurston's work is fantastic and you know I think so.  :-*  He is also not spray painting on other peoples walls now.  He grew out of that phase both artistically and morally. 

I have no idea what kind of work was being done ten or twenty years ago.  The stuff being done by the vandals now IS crap and less than 5% of it (national average!) is pieces.  Guess our graffiti community has regressed.  I could show you pictures, but won't post them.

Well how do you think he got so good?

I am sure that he practiced on sheets of plywood in his parents' backyard. ;)

You are correct that one size legislation and enforcement is wrong at a number of levels.  Adolescent artists need guidance, adolescent acting adults who vandalize the property of others need deterrence.   

You still haven't addressed why it is so attractive for this kind of "budding artist" or tagger vandal to use other people's property as a canvas or why you think it is OK for them to do so.

The skateboarding community organized and got the city to build a couple of skateboard parks.  This greatly reduced the amount of "outlaw" skateboarding.  Why hasn't the graffiti community gotten together to have the city designate and maintain official graffiti wall parks?

I posit that there is an inherent attraction in the illegality of defacing some other person's property that is central to the attraction of doing everything from graffiti pieces to crude tags;  that it is a basic motivator for the acts.  For a few there is an artistic component as well, but for the vast majority there is not.  It is the attraction of vandalism and defiance of social norms and the recognition for doing so that is central to graffiti.

Stephen, you are evading the main point.  There are lots of places available that are legal and that are not other people's property.  Your parent's house, a piece of plywood, permission from the owner of a vacant property, the courtyard of Underbelly's, your own bedroom, a piece of canvas spread on the ground, an invitation from a club owner.

The basic attraction of doing graffiti from the most artistic pieces to the crudest scribbles is that it is "forbidden fruit", wrong, illegal, frowned on, bad, pisses people off, shows that I am a bad ass dude.  The demographics just shout this.

Now, convince me that I am wrong about that.  Or, as we have before in this discussion, just agree to disagree, as friends can do.

QuoteSince we have discussed the matter, I think I remember you saying that youve never met these kids before.  Perhaps that has changed.  Is your assumption based on any conversations youve had with street artists or even with vandals?

Yes, and the interviews taken by the Asst State's Attorney of those who have been arrested recently.  Of course all of them were taggers and not people throwing pieces so my sample is limited.

Another budding fine artist has been punished for his artwork by an oppressive, unappreciative society:

QuoteBack in August, police say, someone went on a tagging spree on Southside Boulevard, painting buildings and poles with the phrase "I am Anonymous."

Turns out the tagger wasn't.

And as much as the Internet is the natural home of the decentralized online group Anonymous, it proved to be the suspect's downfall.

After an employee of Best Buy - one of the buildings adorned with the graffiti - searched YouTube for her store's name and the slogan, she turned up a video of a man bragging about doing the deed, police said.

In the video, since removed, the tagger said he'd return to the scene to take pictures of his handiwork, but never showed.

However, officers said they were able to link the YouTube user name with a Facebook account.

On Tuesday, police arrested 22-year-old Ryan Anano Jatindranath at the home of friends he was staying with.

Jatindranath is known as a member of Anonymous and as a graffiti artist, police said.

He's also someone who had outstanding warrants.

As well as charging him with criminal mischief for the graffiti exploits, police served warrants on the Mandarin High School graduate for trafficking in stolen property, accusing him of stealing 21 cell phones.

He's also been charged with disorderly conduct, violating parole and burglary.

Jatindranath, who has previously been convicted of domestic battery, possessing marijuana, is being held in jail with bail set at $171,529.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2011-10-23/story/police-turn-internet-arrest-anonymous-jacksonville-artist#ixzz1bi6pEoRo

 Just pulling your chain, Stephen.   ;D   Knew this would get your blood flowing this morning.

My actual point is that we aren't seeing any real street artists in Jacksonville, just these losers with spray cans.

Quote from: Dog Walker on June 08, 2011, 06:10:12 PM
This morning the JSO arrested Brett Robert Bell, 27, the older brother of Kenneth Bell (SIKE)

Brett Robert Bell's tag was ATARI which can be seen in almost as many places as his younger brother's tags.  He has been charged with one felony count of criminal mischief and sixteen counts of misdemeanor criminal mischief.

Whew.... told you it wasnt me.... yeah......   

;)

We have another one on the prowl, the Riverside 'Graffiti Ghost'. Pretty cool name, I must admit.

www.actionnewsjax.com/content/actionlocal/story/Graffiti-ghost-plagues-Riverside-residents/6p2e2FjN9k6vHLAiWDxnuw.cspx

Agreed, great name. I hope his art is better than what they showed. Jim Love explains graffiti doesn't give good "vibes."

Quote from: TheCat on July 13, 2012, 11:43:36 PM
Agreed, great name. I hope his art is better than what they showed. Jim Love explains graffiti doesn't give good "vibes."

His stuff makes no pretense at being artistic at all; black or white spray paint and a poorly executed, sloppy tag.  Really crude and childish. 

He tagged the brick wall of Publix that faces Oak Street, if you want to see an example of his stuff.  It's going to be expensive and difficult to get off without damaging the brick.

^^^Yall are preaching to the choir about that GG's 'art' being nothing more than scribble-scrabble. Hell, I grew up in NY although the 80's, the era of the real hip hop, and graffiti covered subway trains, he's definitely not NY graffiti artist material.

Shoot him.

Are you that bloodthirsty? Over some paint? What's your preferred punishment for those who instigate violence?

Shoot them too.

According to action news, it's cost local businesses $30,000 to clean up this scum bags "tagging." He needs to make these companies whole again, maybe by repainting their entire business. It's hard enough for companies to make it in a slow economy, add this moron to the mix and it's even worse.
Graffiti ghost sounds like a name a 5 year old came up with, must match his intellect.

Quote from: kellypope on August 17, 2012, 05:08:26 PM
Are you that bloodthirsty? Over some paint? What's your preferred punishment for those who instigate violence?

I was kidding.    Are you for having tagging all over street signs, on buildings, on your house?

Personally, as someone who has had to cleanup tagging from some idiot like this , Im pretty sick of the damage they inflict on property that is not theirs. 

Let them tag your house . I think you may change your tune.  At the very least, if caught they should have to personally undo ALL of their messes.

What about this? Saw that this guy Ganz, or Gonzo, did this next to Arl Expwy

http://postimage.org/image/bgz4l4dit/

(http://s10.postimage.org/bgz4l4dit/phpf1_C54_L.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bgz4l4dit/)

Oh boy, how to decide?  Does one piece of visual blight cancel out another?

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 30, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
Oh boy, how to decide?  Does one piece of visual blight cancel out another?

By visual blight, I assume you're referring to the vandalism and not to the Arlington Expressway?

Good one!  Billboards and graffiti tags are both visual blight.  Without them the Arlington Expressway wouldn't look bad at all.

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 30, 2012, 10:53:51 AM
Good one!  Billboards and graffiti tags are both visual blight.  Without them the Arlington Expressway wouldn't look bad at all.

I agree about billboards and graffiti. But even without them, I think the expressway would look pretty beat down.

^ That is because it is pretty beat down :)

There should be a free/legal wall to paint on. Btw, they can still have paint cans in their hands, I don't know who or how you guys got that info, but it was wrong. Bail was set too high. "SIMON" or "LOVE" whatever he goes by now, was the one who turned in the other two

Welcome to the forum Brett!

QuoteThere should be a free/legal wall to paint on.

Sounds like a lucrative project for someone like you.  8)

Quote from: Durpin73 on August 29, 2012, 11:31:56 PM
What about this? Saw that this guy Ganz, or Gonzo, did this next to Arl Expwy

http://postimage.org/image/bgz4l4dit/

(http://s10.postimage.org/bgz4l4dit/phpf1_C54_L.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bgz4l4dit/)

If I were forced by a federal prosecutor to face 35 years in federal prison or identify the person who painted this, my first guess would be that it was painted by the same person who posted this to the forum.

Groundless speculation, but hey... I would be facing 35 years, and it seems a fairly logical assumption based on this being your first and only post.

I don't have anything to add to the conversation, really, but it seems that even if we didn't have all these LARGE canvases, the 'artists' would still find a way to express themselves....

(http://i.imgur.com/aldXQ.jpg)

Quote from: Timkin on August 30, 2012, 09:35:51 PM
^ That is because it is pretty beat down :)

50+ years and still going.

I know that I'm probably not breaking any news with many eagle-eyed DTers, but did yall see the south-face of the Florida Life Building (I believe) up top on the roof, it has a giant graffiti'd "TESLA". Now that's definitely some professional NYC-style stuff as you can see it all the way down Laura St damn near the Landing.