QuoteSunRail costs up by almost $5 million because of Scott's delay
March 23, 2011|By Aaron Deslatte, David Damron and Dan Tracy, Orlando Sentinel
The cost to build the SunRail commuter train in Central Florida could go up by at least $4.8 million because Gov. Rick Scott has frozen work on the project until the summer, state documents show.
That increase comes on the heels of a previous extension that increased costs by another $4 million for SunRail, which was supposed to be up and running in 2013. The startup date is in jeopardy as well because of Scott's delay.
Scott, who scuttled the $2.7 billion high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa, said he has not decided what to do with SunRail. But he said the extra costs are acceptable to make time for his review of the $1.2 billion project.
Full article:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-03-23/news/os-jacobs-scott-sunrail-20110323_1_sunrail-costs-rick-scott-high-speed-train
I hope that sunrail somehow survives.
Just more reason Scott will have to kill it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2011, 04:34:18 PM
Just more reason Scott will have to kill it.
Scott doesn't need any additional reasons.
His stock reason:
Quote"the state will be on the hook for cost overruns"
Can be used in ANY situation where he doesn't like a large project (even if it isn't true like when private industry and the federal government had agreed to shoulder any potential cost overruns for HSR)
In the case of Sunrail Scott's stock line is actually true.........but never a valid reason to blithely nix a project.
Again this is considered "gut" economics rather than the quantified traditional consideration that Paula Dockery used to criticize Sunrail, wherein she was against a sweetheart deal that constituted a quantifyable government waste.
Interestingly, Scott did allow that part of the Sunrail project to proceed: CSX already did get their exhorbitant payment for state use of their line.
What a shame. The jerking around of HSR and Sunrail in Central Florida is really economically screwing things up down there. Normally, the early bird catches the worm and being proactive gets you to the next level. In this particular case, its hurting them. However, we don't really feel the impact as much locally because we sat with our heads in the sand and did nothing the last few decades.
QuoteScuttling SunRail would cost millions
March 20, 2011|By Dan Tracy, Orlando SentinelMore than $70 million in taxpayer dollars could be squandered if Gov. Rick Scott decides to kill the SunRail commuter train through Central Florida.
But as Scott ponders what to do with the $1.2 billion project, there's more at risk than the money already spent on engineering, planning, public outreach and land.
An estimated 4,200 construction jobs would go away if the train is scuttled, along with an untold amount of development planned around the 17 stops on the 61-mile system, including a major expansion of the Florida Hospital campus just north of downtown Orlando.
It is difficult to put on an accurate number on the lost wages, jobs and related construction, but the combined value easily could run into tens of millions of dollars, experts estimate.
"There's definitely an economic loss to the region with not going forward," said Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida.
Scott has placed SunRail on hold until the summer, allowing him time to perform what he called "a thorough review of the financial impact this project could have on Florida's taxpayers." He initially froze work on the train in January.
That uncertainty leaves many Orlando and Orange County officials, not to mention business people, worried about plans they have made under the assumption that SunRail would be built.
"It's too outrageous to think about. We're stopped. We can't grow anymore," said Jody Barry, Florida Hospital's director of facilities development.
Without SunRail, he said, the hospital would not be able to create 1,500 of the 10,000 jobs they project from a plan that includes shops, apartments, restaurants, maybe even a hotel. SunRail would stop in the middle of the property.
The hospital predicts SunRail could daily carry as many as 10,000 people to and from its campus in Orlando's College Park neighborhood if all the plans are realized during the next decade or so.
But if SunRail isn't built, Barry said, the hospital would face heavy impact fees to widen several roads, most prominently Interstate 4. Already, I-4 often backs up weekday mornings at the Princeton Street interchange as hospital workers drive in.
It would be virtually impossible to widen I-4 because of the heavy cost, so the hospital instead would scale back the work, he said.
Orlando developer Craig Ustler said his plans for the so-called Creative Village downtown where the old Amway Arena sits would have to be reduced, too.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-03-20/news/os-cost-of-sunrail-dying-20110320_1_sunrail-princeton-street-interchange-jody-barry
QuoteGov. Scott's Rail Delay Upsets Winter Haven Mayor
Mayor Jeff Potter fears economic development plans will be hurt.
WINTER HAVEN | Gov. Rick Scott's delay in approving SunRail funds is holding up an economic development plan in Polk County. That has Winter Haven Mayor Jeff Potter furious.
Scott announced recently that he will delay a decision until July 1 on $235 million in contracts for a planned commuter train that would link downtown Orlando with Volusia, Seminole and Osceola counties, including a stop in Poinciana.
That appropriation included $23 million to subsidize the construction of the CSX freight rail terminal planned for Winter Haven.
Potter fears that could kill a five-year economic development project in Winter Haven, Potter said.
But CSX spokesman Gary Sease said that while the state money would speed up construction, the railroad intends to build the terminal and surrounding industrial development with or without the state money.
The timing all depends on business conditions, he said.
CSX hauls freight and when the economy improves and demand increases, so will freight shipments. Part of the Winter Haven project involves development of a hub for shipment of cars and trucks.
Five years of work could all be blocked because Scott is holding up projects "not to his liking," Potter said, jeopardizing a project that could bring 5,000 to 6,000 jobs to Polk County, as well as a property tax bonanza to Winter Haven and the county.
"He can just as easily release (the funds) tomorrow," Potter said.
Potter is asking people to ask Scott to do just that through calls and e-mail, as well as express their displeasure with the delay.
"If we don't, they'll say we don't care," Potter said. "If we do, they'll say they don't (care), but they need to know that we do."
Potter said the Central Florida corridor gave Scott a lot of support in the election, but he feels certain the support would not have been as extensive if people had known he did not support high-speed rail and had concerns about SunRail.
In January 2006, the Winter Haven City Commission approved an agreement for CSX to buy approximately 1,250 acres in southern Winter Haven for a facility to transfer freight between trains and trucks for shipment and distribution.
The agreement called for two separate closings. The first was in September 2007, three months before the deadline. CSX paid $6.75 million for approximately 318 acres for the intermodal facility.
The second closing for $14.9 million will cover the remaining 932 acres for the ILC, which will house companies and people who will use the intermodal facility.
CSX has until June 1, 2011 -- a month before Scott plans to make a decision -- to make a non-refundable escrow deposit of $100,000 with the city and have a qualified development partner.
Rezoning will be due by Jan. 4, 2012, and the completed land purchase by June 1, 2013.
But those dates could move.
Winter Haven's approval of the project is good until Dec. 31, 2013, though the order allows the City Commission to extend the deadline for good reason.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20110320/NEWS/103205044/1134?p=2&tc=pg
Has anyone actually asked his spokesperson why the decision was delayed?
If he rejected it outright days after being elected, I would say it is political.
But by delaying the decision, I would surmise he is studying it (or having outside counsel review it).
Also, isn't there a JaxPort relationship to the CSX project in Winter Haven?
Yes. CSX planned to spend some of the money it made from the Sunrail deal on improving Jaxport rail facilities and constructing a rail bypass north of town that would have improved access to the CSX "S" line that would flow into the proposed Winter Haven railyard. Like the Winter Haven project, if this deal fails, CSX will eventually make the improvements at some distant point in the future. However, we live in a competitive world where the early bird usually ends up with the worm. The competition won't be sitting still waiting for Jax to get its act together and CSX to wait until they see fit to make major investments on their own in Florida. Other than that, it wouldn't hurt to actually benefit from the jobs these projects will create right now.
As for Scott, he's using Sunrail as a carrot to get its supporters to do his bidding. I believe the delay is a strategic position for him to get his way through the legislative session. Once he gets what he wants, he'll kill it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2011, 06:49:12 PM
As for Scott, he's using Sunrail as a carrot to get its supporters to do his bidding. I believe the delay is a strategic position for him to get his way through the legislative session. Once he gets what he wants, he'll kill it.
this makes more sense than any other theories on why Scott is delaying it...
fact is, one of the biggest SunRail supporters is House Speaker Dean Cannon....SCott won't want to piss him off during session, so he'll wait until after session is over and then kill it.
alternately, Scott wants to keep his Tea Party base happy through this legislative session...and then after the session, he'll go forward with the project...while this is hopeful, it is highly unlikely.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 27, 2011, 07:03:13 PM
this makes more sense than any other theories on why Scott is delaying it...
fact is, one of the biggest SunRail supporters is House Speaker Dean Cannon....SCott won't want to piss him off during session, so he'll wait until after session is over and then kill it.
alternately, Scott wants to keep his Tea Party base happy through this legislative session...and then after the session, he'll go forward with the project...while this is hopeful, it is highly unlikely.
Since there is a JaxPort relationship in this arrangement, I don't think he will be that hasty.
My impression is that he has spent a significant amount of time looking at Florida ports (especially JaxPort) and the impact of Panamax.
While I won't discount any political horse trading going on (holding out until he gets certain concessions on other budget items), this one doesn't appear to be the immediate washout everyone expected on HSR.
Lakelander is right however, Charleston, with their recent deal with CSX to use the old Navy Yards for Panamax ships, and the new "Heartland Corridor" out of Norfolk for NS in preparation for Panamax, puts Jax in a awkward position.
Clearly this SunRail deal has many more moving parts, and if I was in his place, I too would be examining how it all will work.
How high is the new bridge in Charleston? I wasn't aware that Panamax ships could fit under it. Anyway, that's huge for Charleston. I'm glad they're able to find logical new uses for the old naval facility.
as to the JaxPort issue, Scott could allow the sale of the rail line from CSX to FDOT...he already approved some payments to CSX....but that doesn't mean he has to approve/allow passenger rail on the corridor.
^but this wouldn't make any sense. Why would the state purchase only 61 miles of track from CSX just to sit and maintain it?
Because your not interested in being the best Governor but maybe your interested in getting the Tea Party I mean Republican presidential nomination. Just a guess.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2011, 08:43:09 PM
How high is the new bridge in Charleston? I wasn't aware that Panamax ships could fit under it. Anyway, that's huge for Charleston. I'm glad they're able to find logical new uses for the old naval facility.
Source for below: Southeastroads.com
The South Carolina Department of Transportation (SCDOT) completed the single most expensive construction project in state history on July 15, 2005 when the Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge opened to traffic over the Cooper River at Charleston. The 2.5-mile eight-lane bridge replaces two aging cantilever spans (the 1929-opened Grace Bridge and 1966-opened Pearman Bridge) that spanned both Towne Creek and the Cooper River between the city of Charleston and the town of Mount Pleasant. The bridge design features a 1,546 long main span, the longest such span in all of North America and signature diamond shaped towers that reach 572 feet into the air. Construction took four years to complete at a cost of $632 million.
The new U.S. 17 bridge travels 186 feet above the high tide mark of the Cooper River. That height is almost 50 feet above that of the John C. Grace and Silas Pearman Bridges. During all phases of construction, both of the cantilever spans remained open to traffic. Toward the end of construction, the Ravenel Bridge actually traveled over the old bridges at a point near Drum Island. The spectacle of the bridge work acted as a tourist attraction for the city of Charleston. One and a half years of demolition work commences after the July 15, 2005 opening of the Ravenel Bridge on the John C. Grace and Silas Pearman Bridges will be dismantled. The bridge materials will be recycled or used offshore in the creation of artificial reefs.2
Look familiar?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Arthur_Ravenel_Bridge_%28from_water%29.jpg/800px-Arthur_Ravenel_Bridge_%28from_water%29.jpg)
(http://travelbyphotos.com/images/charleston.JPG)
.
(http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/103988/sav_ga.jpg)
(http://www.kisingercampo.com/images/photos/760x260/DamesPointBridge_JAX.jpg)
Never the less there are benefits in using Jax over all of the others:
Same 2 rail carriers north, south, and west from the port as found in Savannah, Charleston, or Norfolk.
A well developed port facility EAST of the bridge with NO overhead clearence problems.
148 rail miles closer to PANAMA then Savannah
249 rail miles closer to PANAMA then Charleston
672 rail miles closer to PANAMA then Norfolk
and
366 rail miles closer to every point in the USA north of Jacksonville then Miami
Arguably better Interstate and Highway Connections
Higher trade zone populationOCKLAWAHA
So, despite the rail assets, we're at a disadvantage to Norfolk, Charleston and Savannah because they can already accommodate panamax ships?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2011, 10:04:21 PM
So, despite the rail assets, we're at a disadvantage to Norfolk, Charleston and Savannah because they can already accommodate panamax ships?
While the Talmadge has the clearance, the Savannah River has a dredging issue for Panamax. To maintain channel depth the dredgers would have to run almost 24x7 to maintain the draft. IMHO, having Panamax come up the Savannah is almost laughable. The current ships already dwarf the river and tower above the city even though it sits on a bluff. I saw a cruise dock move up 3 feet when a ship came by as it displaced so much water in such a narrow channel.
Norfolk has no rail disadvantage, it has a distance to port issue. NS has just finished raising or daylighting their tunnels through the Appalachians to clear the double stacks. Charleston has a rail issue as only CSX can service the Navy Yard and they have already admitted that they would have to hump a majority of the containers in Atlanta, already a congested rail freight arterial.
Charleston has already admitted that they will be a prime port for "timed freight", for shippers who need to expedite off loading to make up for the farther to port distance.
Jacksonville is really in a position to be the best of all worlds.
I agree, something I mentioned to you in the past Lake. Savannah's river channel at the bridge is only 700 feet from shore to shore... AT DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE'S MAIN STREET BRIDGE we have a clear 1,250 feet.
So Panamax in those confines? Well?
Length
Over all (including protrusions): 950 ft (289.56 m) Exceptions:
* Container ship and passenger ship: 965 ft (294.13 m)
* Tug-barge combination, rigidly connected: 900 ft (274.32 m) over all
* Other non-self-propelled vessels-tug combination: 850 ft (259.08 m) over all
I think we win this one by the Grace of God!
OCKLAWAHA
SunRail Backers Plan to Lobby Rick Scott
Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and a host of other Central Florida leaders are trying today to revive the SunRail commuter train stalled by Gov. Rick Scott.
Dyer and the panel overseeing the $1.2 billion project will meet this afternoon to talk about ways to show Scott that the region really wants the 61-mile system built.
Scott, who put SunRail on hold in January, told a Congressional hearing last week that he was studying whether the community supports the train that would link downtown Orlando with Volusia, Seminole and Osceola counties.
Scott, who intends to announce his decision no later than July, previously said he was reviewing the return taxpayers might expect from SunRail.
Dyer, who met last week with Scott to discuss the train, will talk with members of the Central Florida Commuter Rail Commission that he chairs about how to impress the governor enough to get him to approve SunRail.
One way, he is expected to say, is to show the jobs it could create. One study estimates 4,200 construction jobs would be needed to get the train running. Millions of dollars worth of development is planned around the 17 stops, too.
Michael Kidd, vice president of the Greater Orlando Realtors Association, said research his group conducted indicates that property values typically jump in value around train stops. He said double-digit increases were fairly common in cities with trains, including Portland, Ore., Minneapolis, Charlotte, N.C., St. Louis, Tempe, Ariz., and Salt Lake City.
"It's just amazing to see," Kidd said.
Central Florida, he said, is in a real estate "malaise" and SunRail could help the region start climbing out of the development hole triggered by the recession.
He likely will forward his report to Scott. "We want to supply him with the rationale to make the right decision," Kidd said.
The train was supposed to be operating in 2013, but Scott's postponement has placed that startup in jeopardy.
The SunRail meeting, set for 3 p.m., will be held at Metroplan Orlando, One Landmark Center, 315 E. Robinson St., Suite 355.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/os-sunrail-support-scott-20110418,0,3919699.story
From my perspective, two interesting items:
1. The Governor is studying community support
2. Yes, I think we all agree re: the property value benefits, but I like the stress placed on that by the advocates.
QuoteMichael Kidd, vice president of the Greater Orlando Realtors Association, said research his group conducted indicates that property values typically jump in value around train stops. He said double-digit increases were fairly common in cities with trains, including Portland, Ore., Minneapolis, Charlotte, N.C., St. Louis, Tempe, Ariz., and Salt Lake City.
"It's just amazing to see," Kidd said.
The majority of these projects were either modern streetcar or LRT. While i'm a backer of this commuter rail project, I doubt it will stimulate the type of ridership or economic development that streetcar and LRT projects do.
EDIT: - I just reread the article. Kidd is right in that the property values around Sunrail's train stops will increase. However, economic development won't be the same as the other cities because the service is more limited with less stations.