Is there any way he can win? I have just moved here and will not be able to tolerate 4 years of Mayor Falwell.
there's always a chance...what it will take is for the "establishment" in this town to financially support and vote for a Democrat.
Have to paint Hogan as a far right radical. Wait, that's actually what he is.
I'm already seeing quite a few Republicans for Brown on Facebook. I think he stands a decent chance to get moderate Republicans, especially when he destroys Hogan in the debates, which he will.
If anyone here still wants to save this place they will do whatever they can to get Brown inside the mayor's office.
I respect a person's personal religious beliefs but they need to keep it more personal than public if they want to run as mayor of all the people. While it doesn't compare to Hogan, Brown spent the first few minutes of free publicity publicizing his victory speech live tonight by thanking God repeatedly for his victory and quoting Bible passages chapter and verse. Instead, maybe he should have used the great visibility to promote further why he would be a better mayor of all of us than Hogan. He sure isn't going to win against Hogan by trying to out Bible-thump him. Brown does speak well, shows lots of energy and charisma, and has the raw ingredients to appeal to the masses. But, he needs to stay very focused on what it will take to win this race and remember it's a whole new ball game in the runoff. I also thought it wasn't too smart that he used a union hall for his HQ's tonight given some of the people he needs to win over to pull this election off.
It's frustrating to see good candidates run less than great campaigns and lose. I think we already saw that with Moran tonight. Brown needs to learn from this and avoid the same pitfalls.
What is Mr. Brown's stance on the city employee unions and pensions?
Did Audrey announce who she would support in the run-off?
Quote from: stjr on March 22, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
I respect a person's personal religious beliefs but they need to keep it more personal than public if they want to run as mayor of all the people. While it doesn't compare to Hogan, Brown spent the first few minutes of free publicity publicizing his victory speech live tonight by thanking God repeatedly for his victory and quoting Bible passages chapter and verse. Instead, maybe he should have used the great visibility to promote further why he would be a better mayor of all of us than Hogan. He sure isn't going to win against Hogan by trying to out Bible-thump him. Brown does speak well, shows lots of energy and charisma, and has the raw ingredients to appeal to the masses. But, he needs to stay very focused on what it will take to win this race and remember it's a whole new ball game in the runoff. I also thought it wasn't too smart that he used a union hall for his HQ's tonight given some of the people he needs to win over to pull this election off.
It's frustrating to see good candidates run less than great campaigns and lose. I think we already saw that with Moran tonight. Brown needs to learn from this and avoid the same pitfalls.
I dont believe Alvin Brown will be running the city from a pulpit. Unlike Mike Hogan.
I dont see the problem with Brown using a union hall for his reception. Alvin, as the democratic party has always been, is for the working man.
I have to say that his belief in a higher power is a plus with me.
As is Mr. Hogan's belief. There is NO difference between the candidates on this particular issue.
Quote from: futurejax on March 22, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
Did Audrey announce who she would support in the run-off?
On TV, she said she wanted to "rest" a few days before taking any stand. She definitely telegraphed either endorsing Brown or saying nothing at all. She will probably be banished from the Republican party if she endorses Brown so she is likely to have to think long and hard about that, especially if she aspires to run again as a Republican.
Quote from: CityLife on March 22, 2011, 11:34:42 PM
I'm already seeing quite a few Republicans for Brown on Facebook. I think he stands a decent chance to get moderate Republicans, especially when he destroys Hogan in the debates, which he will.
That's a good point, the animosity of Audrey's supporters could turn into support for Brown!
Quote from: stjr on March 22, 2011, 11:59:44 PM
Quote from: futurejax on March 22, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
Did Audrey announce who she would support in the run-off?
On TV, she said she wanted to "rest" a few days before taking any stand. She definitely telegraphed either endorsing Brown or saying nothing at all. She will probably be banished from the Republican party if she endorses Brown so she is likely to have to think long and hard about that, especially if she aspires to run again as a Republican.
True but if she endorses Brown and he gets elected she could get a job in his admin.
Why bother.
Quote from: NotNow on March 22, 2011, 11:57:57 PM
I have to say that his belief in a higher power is a plus with me.
As is Mr. Hogan's belief. There is NO difference between the candidates on this particular issue.
Like I said, I respect his personal religious beliefs. But, Brown isn't going to win squandering city wide live TV events using them to overly-share his religion (It wasn't one line of thanks, it was an extensive display). If you want him to win, he would be better advised to use these opportunities to address the issues coming before a mayor of this City.Quote from: hillary supporter on March 22, 2011, 11:55:03 PM
I dont see the problem with Brown using a union hall for his reception. Alvin, as the democratic party has always been, is for the working man.
Yes, you are right in theory. But, symbols mean a lot in an election. And, to the countless Republicans and RRAD's (Republicans Registered as Democrats) he needs to win over, a union hall is akin to food poisoning. He needs to be cognizant of the sensibilities of the voters he seeks. Again, if you want him to win, he needs to play his cards smartly.
Folks, I know it's a disappointing night. I am really upset that Audrey did not make the run-off. But if all of the negative energy here tonight can be be re-directed into positive momentum for Brown I think he could pull it off. This link clearly shows it is anything but impossible.
http://www.duvalelections.com/VRStats.aspx?Summaries=1
Again, can't bring myself to vote "for the union man" and can't vote for Hogan so why bother voting at all, both will screw over the core.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 23, 2011, 12:19:08 AM
Again, can't bring myself to vote "for the union man" and can't vote for Hogan so why bother voting at all, both will screw over the core.
Disagree. In his website video the first thing he talks about is a vibrant core. And I don't see how he is gonna be the one beholden to unions when Iron Mike is the one with police/fire union backing?
Maybe I need a week to get over it, certainly not my first choice, and feeling boxed in the corner now :-(
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 23, 2011, 12:28:37 AM
Maybe I need a week to get over it, certainly not my first choice, and feeling boxed in the corner now :-(
Understood. You come back fightin though, k ;)
I'm sick to my stomach.. I just cannot believe the outcome :(
MetroJacksonville can we get Alvin on here and get the scoop? We all know Hogan is a complete joke so our last hope might be Alvin (believe it or not he was one of my original choices at the beginning). I really want to know if it is worth voting at all, in the run off, and Alvin has been quiet for too long and what I have heard has turned me off a bit.
Well.....guess we can't blame "hanging Chads" for this one :( . I think Id much rather see Brown win. I may be in the minority.. but I am so sick at this outcome, and so disappointed, and I know I should have just expected the worst. I felt this morning , as we went to vote, that today was the day for a change for the better for Jacksonville. I could not be more disappointed.
Quote from: Timkin on March 23, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
Well.....guess we can't blame "hanging Chads" for this one :( . I think Id much rather see Brown win. I may be in the minority.. but I am so sick at this outcome, and so disappointed, and I know I should have just expected the worst. I felt this morning , as we went to vote, that today was the day for a change for the better for Jacksonville. I could not be more disappointed.
You are not n the minority...there must be a joining of minds behind Mr Brown...the alternative kills us all...
If Brown is not an Obamabot, then maybe I could see myself, a staunch conservative Republican, voting for a Democrat. But if we are just going to get the same type of crap thats happening now on the national level, then I would have to vote for Hogan, much as that pains me to say.
Quote from: johnnyroadglide on March 23, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
If Brown is not an Obamabot, then maybe I could see myself, a staunch conservative Republican, voting for a Democrat. But if we are just going to get the same type of crap thats happening now on the national level, then I would have to vote for Hogan, much as that pains me to say.
Well the "crap" happened not because of Obama but because of George Bush and the defunding and deregulation of our country...i do hope you can find it to help and vote for Mr. Brown and make our city the true "Bold city of the south"....right now it's the laughing stock of the south....lets try to make it better..
Quotethere's always a chance...what it will take is for the "establishment" in this town to financially support and vote for a Democrat.
:D , Ask Nat Glover how that ideology worked for him 8 years ago.
Good luck with that one, especially since WW Gay, Miller Electric and other well established entities have thrown support behind Hogan. And rightly so. What will Brown provide for them?
Quotethe alternative kills us all...
How so? The Stock Exchanges love status quo, its good for business and a stable economic region. Why does adding someone with almost ZERO local political experience to be Mayor such a great idea in these times of strife?
I fail to see any logic in that statement above, but I do see emotion.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 23, 2011, 08:09:40 AM
Quotethere's always a chance...what it will take is for the "establishment" in this town to financially support and vote for a Democrat.
:D , Ask Nat Glover how that ideology worked for him 8 years ago.
Good luck with that one, especially since WW Gay, Miller Electric and other well established entities have thrown support behind Hogan. And rightly so. What will Brown provide for them?
I fear you have exposed the Hogan platform more than he would have wanted.
You can still delete. (but those darned quotes will still be there.)
Ima join the Lee Harvey Crusades against (http://www.leeharveyinc.com/wp-content/gallery/portfolio/thumbs/thumbs_marie-antoinette-rebel-flag-swastika.jpg).
QuoteI fear you have exposed the Hogan platform more than he would have wanted.
You can still delete. (but those darned quotes will still be there.)
Only a Mullaney or Audrey supporter would RETRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO HOGAN!!!!!
What a disappointing night. I have never volunteered or donated money to campaign until this one. I really wanted Audrey to win. I don't know what else to say other than I am sick. Might take a couple of days to get over this.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 23, 2011, 08:22:43 AM
QuoteI fear you have exposed the Hogan platform more than he would have wanted.
You can still delete. (but those darned quotes will still be there.)
Only a Mullaney or Audrey supporter would RETRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO HOGAN!!!!!
Well played, but the good ole boy network has yet to prove an interest in representing all Jaxons, nor the competence to make the city vibrant. While I don't believe it is the government that makes a city vibrant, I do realize that governmental policies are what can enable or disallow it.
For the GOB's, It's all about infrastructure to increase the value of real estate outside the core. (even outside the county in many cases... OH SNAP!)
I do not know why people are fretting whether Alvin Brown is an "Obamabot." He still has to get his agenda through the City Council. This kind of divided government had proven to be most effective. The problem arises when one party has unchecked power. We need to bring checks and balances back to our city government!
QuoteWell played, but the good ole boy network has yet to prove an interest in representing all Jaxons, nor the competence to make the city vibrant.
Fair enough, I challenge you to find a candidate who can rally all parts of the city and garner enough votes to surpass the status quo of Jacksonville. Did not happen 8 years ago, maybe it can happen in May. My bet is that it will not. Not enough has changed in 8 years to see that it could or WOULD happen.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 23, 2011, 08:31:13 AM
QuoteWell played, but the good ole boy network has yet to prove an interest in representing all Jaxons, nor the competence to make the city vibrant.
Fair enough, I challenge you to find a candidate who can rally all parts of the city and garner enough votes to surpass the status quo of Jacksonville. Did not happen 8 years ago, maybe it can happen in May. My bet is that it will not. Not enough has changed in 8 years to see that it could or WOULD happen.
Moran was that Mayor.
Unfortunately she wasn't a good enough candidate. Mullaney fed her to the wolves of the far right theocrats, and she was gobbled up. Brown voters might have been a bit more pragmatic as well, which would have landed us a more moderate republican.
Lower taxes and baby Jesus will garner votes in J-ville, but the platform won't help the city nor the citizens.
Inevitably, neither promise shows up to save the day.
Bucket your aim is true.
Quote from: Jaxson on March 23, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
I do not know why people are fretting whether Alvin Brown is an "Obamabot." He still has to get his agenda through the City Council. This kind of divided government had proven to be most effective. The problem arises when one party has unchecked power. We need to bring checks and balances back to our city government!
+1mm and I'm a Repub who didn't and will not again vote for Obama but Hogan will take any chance of this city becoming something greater than it currently is and flush it straight down the toilet.
The failure to elect strong city council members is just as important as our failure for mayor. i haven't been able to assess all the damage from yesterday, but things are not looking good. We need to get to work immediately to figure out how this whole thing can be salvaged.
Quote from: johnnyroadglide on March 23, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
If Brown is not an Obamabot, then maybe I could see myself, a staunch conservative Republican, voting for a Democrat. But if we are just going to get the same type of crap thats happening now on the national level, then I would have to vote for Hogan, much as that pains me to say.
National politics and local don't mix. It's all rhetoric but with no real connection. The rhetoric is the same but the issues are not. Do you think a national Tea Party leader and Unions would ever partner? That's exactly what happened in this race.
Quote from: John P on March 23, 2011, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: johnnyroadglide on March 23, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
If Brown is not an Obamabot, then maybe I could see myself, a staunch conservative Republican, voting for a Democrat. But if we are just going to get the same type of crap thats happening now on the national level, then I would have to vote for Hogan, much as that pains me to say.
National politics and local don't mix.
Bill Clinton seems to think they do. He called and left me a message yesterday urging me to vote for Brown...
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 23, 2011, 10:32:18 AM
The failure to elect strong city council members is just as important as our failure for mayor. i haven't been able to assess all the damage from yesterday, but things are not looking good. We need to get to work immediately to figure out how this whole thing can be salvaged.
Agreed. Juan Diaz, Michelle Tappouni, and Sean Hall didn't even make the runoff in their races. All 3 would have been excellent advocates for downtown.
Quote from: futurejax on March 22, 2011, 11:37:52 PM
If anyone here still wants to save this place they will do whatever they can to get Brown inside the mayor's office.
An easy step would be to "like" Alvin Brown on his Facebook page. He only has 656 at this point.
compared to Hogans over 2,000 likes. gag!
Quote from: John P on March 23, 2011, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: johnnyroadglide on March 23, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
If Brown is not an Obamabot, then maybe I could see myself, a staunch conservative Republican, voting for a Democrat. But if we are just going to get the same type of crap thats happening now on the national level, then I would have to vote for Hogan, much as that pains me to say.
National politics and local don't mix. It's all rhetoric but with no real connection. The rhetoric is the same but the issues are not. Do you think a national Tea Party leader and Unions would ever partner? That's exactly what happened in this race.
If national politics has no impact on state and local politics, I would like to know why the likes of Sarah Palin showed up to help with John Thrasher's campaign in 2010. Just wondering...
I would like to know why Bill Clinton called my house yesterday... ::)
Quote from: fsujax on March 23, 2011, 11:21:53 AM
compared to Hogans over 2,000 likes. gag!
wait...Hogan's people know how to use Facebook?
One reason why the GOP has such a strong hold on Jacksonvlle (and the South) is because they have managed to nationalize the politics. I know many people who will not vote Democrat because they blindly assume that local Dems support the more liberal tenets of the Democat's national platform. This is why Blue Dog Democrats are more successful than the rest of their party when it comes to running for office in the South. The Blue Dogs successfully disassociate themselves from the social issues that would otherwise scare away conservative voters.
Alvin Brown would benefit from linking himself to the former president, whose presidency demonstrates the perils of governing from the Left but learned from his mistakes to win reelection in 1996.
QuoteOne reason why the GOP has such a strong hold on Jacksonvlle (and the South) is because they have managed to nationalize the politics.
I agree with you!
Actually Brown would do better to move away from the Union shots, like he had last night with the IBEW. The south is not as unionized as the north. The growth of southern states at the expense of northern states shows, to me, that there are more small businesses started by people in the south, where labor laws are less rigid. The Blue Dog Democrats are PRO-Business, and they realize, even in the northern states that the southern states are kicking their butts for people and jobs, Texas has the strongest economy of any state in the union, and these dems realize that they better adapt and change, or they will continue to lose more people.
I do not think Brown can win, but it all depends on if the Dems come out to vote for their member. 8 years ago, they did not come out and vote for Glover, but we were riding an economic recovery in 2003. Now we are riding a democratic revolt. Maybe the Democrats can't catch a break, but the tape of economic recovery shows he has a rough road ahead of him.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 23, 2011, 06:51:20 PM
QuoteOne reason why the GOP has such a strong hold on Jacksonvlle (and the South) is because they have managed to nationalize the politics.
I agree with you!
Actually Brown would do better to move away from the Union shots, like he had last night with the IBEW. The south is not as unionized as the north. The growth of southern states at the expense of northern states shows, to me, that there are more small businesses started by people in the south, where labor laws are less rigid. The Blue Dog Democrats are PRO-Business, and they realize, even in the northern states that the southern states are kicking their butts for people and jobs, Texas has the strongest economy of any state in the union, and these dems realize that they better adapt and change, or they will continue to lose more people.
I do not think Brown can win, but it all depends on if the Dems come out to vote for their member. 8 years ago, they did not come out and vote for Glover, but we were riding an economic recovery in 2003. Now we are riding a democratic revolt. Maybe the Democrats can't catch a break, but the tape of economic recovery shows he has a rough road ahead of him.
You agree with me! I will cherish this moment. Gracias ; )
I attended only one of the debates when Hogan was present. He looks like a mayor should look I suppose, having no obvious physical oddities. Has a good smile. Looks like a politician. Has excellent name recognition….. Tax Collector for years…. Hogan Street…. Hogan’s heroes. And apparently he is a Christian, attending the First Baptist Church, a condition which brings many votes from fellow church members no matter what.
Hogan didn’t say much during the debate I attended, and what he said was of only moderate significance… was void of penetrating observations or complex analysis of any question or subject. He did not speak eloquently of anything. I am inclined to think that there is little of profound thinking in his mind or, if there is, he simply is not able to express it. In other words, perhaps existing within Mr. Hogan, is an ability to think profoundly, to manage complexities, and to solve difficult problems, but to this day, this ability is not apparent to me simply because he has been so reticent, and so absent in the debates.
It amazes me… concerns me, when I realize how many votes he received. Do the people who voted for Mr. Hogan know something I don’t? Perhaps they see qualities I’ve missed, such as a reasonably high general intelligence, and an ability to focus on and analyze complex issues, and to argue same with reasonable eloquence.
I realize that Mr. Hogan may be a mental giant within, able to jump tall problems in a single bound. He may actually surprise us with excellent qualities at being a mayor. However, it’s a little scary for me when I think that we might vote in as mayor something similar to a Bush in the presidency. Who knows… he may surprise us all. He may be a great mayor.
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
I would have been much more impressed with Mr. Brown if he had avoided the extreme expression of his religious attachments after seeing the voting results. His debate performance was somewhat impressive, certainly much more so that Mr. Hogan’s.
Expree,
I would like to bring to your attention that while Hogan recieved the largest amount, it was a good deal less than all the other candidates combined. And on a very low voter turnout. Audrey Moran and Mr Mullaney were very competent candidates, appealing to progressive republicans (and democrats). The next two months will give you information on both the candidates.
As for Alvin Browns appearance last night after the results, Alvin Browns words were directed towards his faith more than his religious views. He had been all but written off this campaign and pointed his gratitude towards that faith (and his pastor who helped him pay his tuition for college). It is completely different to express gratitude vs Hogans comment towards "domestic terrorism" bombing abortion clinics ( awww it was a joke!)
To repeat myself, i believe these incidents will reveal themselves in the days to come!
Unless the democrats get out and vote big time...this man hogan guy will be our new mayor and a new era of someone at first baptist running our future and years more of the same bs...so it's time to get nasty...democrats play nice way to much and pansy out..i know there are smarter than i out there and unless they can get loud and get out the vote....democrats have no chance..here or nation wide...
Garden guy....perhaps now you understand why not voting by party was so important the other day....Moran was the only candidate that could have easily beat Hogan!
Republicans want to eat the poor.
Everyone knows that.
Quote from: buckethead on March 24, 2011, 07:47:07 AM
Republicans want to eat the poor.
Everyone knows that.
I think they just think they deserve more than others...of everything
Whether someone deserves something is a subjective moral judgment, as is whether the general citizenry should provide something to a specifically targeted group of people.
I understand that you believe it is either/or, R vs D, but it just isn't so.
People are people. All of us are capable of good and evil.
Voting is a different matter. Pragmatism will often afford something closer to what you hoped for than stubbornness will. Especially when you consider that "Most Republicans/teabaggers are racists" coupled with the "fact" that recently, most local elections are won by republicans.
You might consider getting one, more enlightened Republican rather than holding out for the Democrat who may have little effective differences to the Republican.
Quote from: buckethead on March 24, 2011, 08:07:54 AM
Whether someone deserves something is a subjective moral judgment, as is whether the general citizenry should provide something to a specifically targeted group of people.
I understand that you believe it is either/or, R vs D, but it just isn't so.
People are people. All of us are capable of good and evil.
Voting is a different matter. Pragmatism will often afford something closer to what you hoped for than stubbornness will. Especially when you consider that "Most Republicans/teabaggers are racists" coupled with the "fact" that recently, most local elections are won by republicans.
You might consider getting one, more enlightened Republican rather than holding out for the Democrat who may have little effective differences to the Republican.
I've never found a republiana i would vote for...most are'nt for all of us...they usually only support issues and ideasthat support their ideas and screw everyone else. Hence the deregulation of our banks during the bush admn. and the defunding by lowering taxes and now we heve broke cities and towns all over....most republicans that i've met think that our public society really should be...most don't support the idea of public schools or anything public...if that happened we'd all be living in a FBC world. and who want'sthat?
QuoteThe Banking Act of 1933 was a law that established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in the United States and introduced banking reforms, some of which were designed to control speculation.[1] It is most commonly known as the Glassâ€"Steagall Act, after its legislative sponsors, Carter Glass and Henry B. Steagall.
Some provisions of the Act, such as Regulation Q, which allowed the Federal Reserve to regulate interest rates in savings accounts, were repealed by the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980. Provisions that prohibit a bank holding company from owning other financial companies were repealed on November 12, 1999, by the Grammâ€"Leachâ€"Bliley Act. [2][3]
The repeal of the Glassâ€"Steagall Act of 1933 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between Wall Street investment banks and depository banks. This repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007â€"2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
You sure about that?
Quote from: Garden guy on March 24, 2011, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: buckethead on March 24, 2011, 08:07:54 AM
Whether someone deserves something is a subjective moral judgment, as is whether the general citizenry should provide something to a specifically targeted group of people.
I understand that you believe it is either/or, R vs D, but it just isn't so.
People are people. All of us are capable of good and evil.
Voting is a different matter. Pragmatism will often afford something closer to what you hoped for than stubbornness will. Especially when you consider that "Most Republicans/teabaggers are racists" coupled with the "fact" that recently, most local elections are won by republicans.
You might consider getting one, more enlightened Republican rather than holding out for the Democrat who may have little effective differences to the Republican.
I've never found a republiana i would vote for...most are'nt for all of us...they usually only support issues and ideasthat support their ideas and screw everyone else. Hence the deregulation of our banks during the bush admn. and the defunding by lowering taxes and now we heve broke cities and towns all over....most republicans that i've met think that our public society really should be...most don't support the idea of public schools or anything public...if that happened we'd all be living in a FBC world. and who want'sthat?
Garden guy with all due respect you seem too often to have no idea what on earth you're talking about. Your talking points seem to be taken straight from a 2008 DNC pamphlet. Know during who's admin Glass-Steagall was overturned? Know how many times Frank let the GSEs "roll the dice" and know which adminn tried to impose tighter regs on Fan and Fred? Know who's administration decried 'redlining' and ignited the first chapter of sub-primes? Know which party banks the most from Goldman Sachs? These are all rhetorical questions of course, because it seems obvious you do not. But continue with your R vs. D, good-evil, black and white memes and paradigms. Seems like the safest place for you. Or...., get ready for it, you could actually do some of your own research and investigating. Just a though there. ;)
Quote from: buckethead on March 24, 2011, 07:47:07 AM
Republicans want to eat the poor.
Everyone knows that.
LOL :)
QuoteMoran was the only candidate that could have easily beat Hogan!
Given the poll results Tuesday, apparently it was not that easy to beat him.
Look what happened in Tampa.....Rose Ferlita easily beat 4 other candidates gaining 39% of the vote.....but still had a runoff.....the losing 3 candidates endorsed and/or supported the runner up, who got 23% of the vote....in the runoff. Buckhorn beat Ferlita 2 to 1....this is what could have happened w/ Audrey
Quote from: Expree on March 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
Being religious has nothing to do with your ability to reason and think. Some of the greatest scientists and thinkers in history have also held deep religious convictions including André Marie Ampere, Alessandro Volta, Louis Pasteur, Guglielmo Marconi, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Robert Boyle, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, etc. Did you know that the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaître? In fact, I would argue that religion is enhanced by science and reason not opposed to it. I would be willing to bet that most politicians in our country have some religious conviction. While I agree that we need intelligent people as leaders, I do not believe that intelligence has anything to do with whether or not someone believes in God.
Personally, I liked Mr. Brown's reaction to the election results. I think it makes him seem down to earth. I do have some questions about him though. Is he pro-life? What does he have to say about transit?
Just to put the fear of God into all of you, I am seriously considering changing my vote to Mr. Brown in the runoff. Unless GG thinks I am trying to hurt the poor!
Seriously, I want to hear him out, but his posted views fit my needs more than Mr. Hogan right now.
And I agree with Buckeye. I believe that an intelligent person can understand that we really know very little about the universe we live in.
Quote from: NotNow on March 24, 2011, 08:44:46 PM
Just to put the fear of God into all of you, I am seriously considering changing my vote to Mr. Brown in the runoff. Unless GG thinks I am trying to hurt the poor!
Seriously, I want to hear him out, but his posted views fit my needs more than Mr. Hogan right now.
And I agree with Buckeye. I believe that an intelligent person can understand that we really know very little about the universe we live in.
Why would you fear your god? i would'nt want a god i had to fear...that makes no sense whatsoever...
I think maybe the only way we can beat hogan is start hammering on him and his ideas and policy thoughts right now and not let up until the vote day...democrats over the land loose because we play nice...they don't play nice and they win...it sucks but maybe we have to beat them at their own games...the truth of what's been going on downtown right under hogans nose for years should be set out for all to see. The abuses of our city and its funds and the downright throwing away of money on things that don't work...we all see the bleeding of money waisted on ass kissing deals made by our leaders, let us speak what we know and see...
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 24, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: Expree on March 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
Being religious has nothing to do with your ability to reason and think. Some of the greatest scientists and thinkers in history have also held deep religious convictions including André Marie Ampere, Alessandro Volta, Louis Pasteur, Guglielmo Marconi, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Robert Boyle, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, etc. Did you know that the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaître? In fact, I would argue that religion is enhanced by science and reason not opposed to it. I would be willing to bet that most politicians in our country have some religious conviction. While I agree that we need intelligent people as leaders, I do not believe that intelligence has anything to do with whether or not someone believes in God.
Personally, I liked Mr. Brown's reaction to the election results. I think it makes him seem down to earth. I do have some questions about him though. Is he pro-life? What does he have to say about transit?
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
I don't care any of mayor candidates's religious beliefs, opinion on social issues, etc.
I look past those into their soul and heart with the good issues they want to stand on FOR the city.-Josh
Quote from: Garden guy on March 24, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Quote from: NotNow on March 24, 2011, 08:44:46 PM
Just to put the fear of God into all of you, I am seriously considering changing my vote to Mr. Brown in the runoff. Unless GG thinks I am trying to hurt the poor!
Seriously, I want to hear him out, but his posted views fit my needs more than Mr. Hogan right now.
And I agree with Buckeye. I believe that an intelligent person can understand that we really know very little about the universe we live in.
Why would you fear your god? i would'nt want a god i had to fear...that makes no sense whatsoever...
You obviously are not familiar with the Christian bible. You heathens should fear the wrath of God! :)
Quote from: NotNow on March 24, 2011, 08:44:46 PM
Just to put the fear of God into all of you, I am seriously considering changing my vote to Mr. Brown in the runoff. Unless GG thinks I am trying to hurt the poor!
Seriously, I want to hear him out, but his posted views fit my needs more than Mr. Hogan right now.
And I agree with Buckeye. I believe that an intelligent person can understand that we really know very little about the universe we live in.
Not Now I hope you do. I am glad you are saying this. Religion aside it is what is best for our city! :D
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2011, 06:48:42 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 24, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
QuoteMoran was the only candidate that could have easily beat Hogan!
Given the poll results Tuesday, apparently it was not that easy to beat him.
yeah. considering that more than 60% of the city voted for someone else, he seems invincible, mtrain.
I will hands down , second this.. he was frickin INVINCIBLE .
LOL
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 24, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: Expree on March 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
Being religious has nothing to do with your ability to reason and think. Some of the greatest scientists and thinkers in history have also held deep religious convictions including André Marie Ampere, Alessandro Volta, Louis Pasteur, Guglielmo Marconi, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Robert Boyle, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, etc. Did you know that the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaître? In fact, I would argue that religion is enhanced by science and reason not opposed to it. I would be willing to bet that most politicians in our country have some religious conviction. While I agree that we need intelligent people as leaders, I do not believe that intelligence has anything to do with whether or not someone believes in God.
Personally, I liked Mr. Brown's reaction to the election results. I think it makes him seem down to earth. I do have some questions about him though. Is he pro-life? What does he have to say about transit?
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
I don't care any of mayor candidates's religious beliefs, opinion on social issues, etc. I look past those into their soul and heart with the good issues they want to stand on FOR the city.
-Josh
+1 Josh :)
I am worried, I am not sure I can vote for anyone GG is endorsing so highly- he might want to eat the rich LOL!!!
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 25, 2011, 07:20:23 AM
I am worried, I am not sure I can vote for anyone GG is endorsing so highly- he might want to eat the rich LOL!!!
Mmmm...i love a good bbq banker...
Quote from: Garden guy on March 25, 2011, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 25, 2011, 07:20:23 AM
I am worried, I am not sure I can vote for anyone GG is endorsing so highly- he might want to eat the rich LOL!!!
Mmmm...i love a good bbq banker...
LMAO!!!
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
Isn't this a moral value and personal belief as well? So I should expect you're going to take your own advice and shove that position?
Quote from: Clem1029 on March 25, 2011, 10:11:38 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
Isn't this a moral value and personal belief as well? So I should expect you're going to take your own advice and shove that position?
Please read my whole obvious post. I just proved that I pushed my moral values to the second priorities by suggesting that you would look into the mayor candidates at their view on the issues FOR the city, not their moral values while base your vote on your own moral values.
-Josh
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: Clem1029 on March 25, 2011, 10:11:38 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
Isn't this a moral value and personal belief as well? So I should expect you're going to take your own advice and shove that position?
Please read my whole obvious post. I just proved that I pushed my moral values to the second priorities by suggesting that you would look into the mayor candidates at their view on the issues FOR the city, not their moral values while base your vote on your own moral values.
A position which, whether you like it or not, is a moral judgement in and of itself. It's a self-contradicting position.
Quote from: JeffreyS on March 23, 2011, 11:01:24 AM
Quote from: futurejax on March 22, 2011, 11:37:52 PM
If anyone here still wants to save this place they will do whatever they can to get Brown inside the mayor's office.
An easy step would be to "like" Alvin Brown on his Facebook page. He only has 656 at this point.
The "likes" bumped up to 834 in one day let's see if we can grow this number.
Quote from: Clem1029 on March 25, 2011, 10:19:26 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: Clem1029 on March 25, 2011, 10:11:38 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
Isn't this a moral value and personal belief as well? So I should expect you're going to take your own advice and shove that position?
Please read my whole obvious post. I just proved that I pushed my moral values to the second priorities by suggesting that you would look into the mayor candidates at their view on the issues FOR the city, not their moral values while base your vote on your own moral values.
A position which, whether you like it or not, is a moral judgement in and of itself. It's a self-contradicting position.
Everything has a moral judgement including myself and yourself. I am speaking (not speaking on the behalf) for the sake of Jacksonville. What I am asking is you to minimize your moral judgement of your own beliefs to your secondary order while focusing on the issues for the city as the primary. You can apply your moral judgement on the mayor in any way you like AFTER narrowing your options down BASED on the issues the candidates stand for.
I don't like when any voter of Jacksonville would vote blindly based on their moral values as their primary reasonings, but it is not my place to call it.-Josh
Can Brown leverage his base enough and go after the votes Audrey gobbled up in San Marco, Riv/Avdale, Beaches, etc to really make this a race? Key to me for Brown is drawing Hogan out into a debate and show yourself as the more intelligent, more passionate, better potential leader with a far better vision. I really think he can do it. His campaign has to make him Clinton-esque circa '96 vs. guy who doesn't really have an idea of what he wants to do as mayor.
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 24, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 24, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: Expree on March 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
Being religious has nothing to do with your ability to reason and think. Some of the greatest scientists and thinkers in history have also held deep religious convictions including André Marie Ampere, Alessandro Volta, Louis Pasteur, Guglielmo Marconi, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Robert Boyle, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, etc. Did you know that the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaître? In fact, I would argue that religion is enhanced by science and reason not opposed to it. I would be willing to bet that most politicians in our country have some religious conviction. While I agree that we need intelligent people as leaders, I do not believe that intelligence has anything to do with whether or not someone believes in God.
Personally, I liked Mr. Brown's reaction to the election results. I think it makes him seem down to earth. I do have some questions about him though. Is he pro-life? What does he have to say about transit?
People, people, people, please SHOVE all of your moral values and personal beliefs to your secondary priorities. Your primary priorities should be about the city of Jacksonville and how it impacts your living here.
I don't care any of mayor candidates's religious beliefs, opinion on social issues, etc. I look past those into their soul and heart with the good issues they want to stand on FOR the city.
-Josh
I hope you are not misreading me. I don't want to shove anything down anyone's throat; I just want to make sure that people who have religious convictions are portrayed accurately and fairly.
Ideally, if a person is a Christian then hopefully they would be motivated to make the best choices for the good of the people. Charity (as in loving our neighbors as ourselves for the love of God) is a cornerstone of a Christian life. And although this virtue is not always perfectly displayed by all Christians (they're only human after all), it seems like charity is a virtue that I would want in someone running for office. So bottom line, let's leave the religion bashing out of the discussion because that clearly has little to no detrimental effect on a candidate's ability to be an effective leader.
As for making decisions based on morality, I think we clearly hold different opinions. It's all about values. In my own estimation, the dignity of a human life and promoting strong families are of the utmost importance even beyond economics and quality of life. Obviously, we disagree on these points, but I would hope that we could have a civil conversation about these differences of opinion. To suggest that we should close-mindedly shove issues like abortion or so on to the back burners of political discourse strikes me as undemocratic. Even at the local level these issues matter as shown by articles such as these:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/nyregion/03pregnancy.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/nyregion/03pregnancy.html)http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-10-10/news/0910090314_1_ordinance-mayor-richard-daley-protesters (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-10-10/news/0910090314_1_ordinance-mayor-richard-daley-protesters)
So I respectfully disagree. These are important and valid issues, and even if your values are different than mine I believe that they deserve fair debate just as the issues that you hold as priorities deserve fair debate.
Although that debate may have to wait as dinner is an important priority at the moment. ;)
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 24, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: Expree on March 23, 2011, 10:42:36 PM
What concerns me too, with both Brown and Hogan, is that they apparently are both involved in the Christian habits of praying and depending excessively upon faith, which is of course okay for the most part, especially in their private excursions into the spiritual world. However, when the important problems of government are involved, I prefer individuals who pray and have faith less, and use more reason and critical thinking to the utmost degree to solve the problems. We certainly do not need religion anywhere near our governmental efforts. We need intelligent, objective individuals.
Being religious has nothing to do with your ability to reason and think. Some of the greatest scientists and thinkers in history have also held deep religious convictions including André Marie Ampere, Alessandro Volta, Louis Pasteur, Guglielmo Marconi, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Robert Boyle, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, etc. Did you know that the big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest named Georges Lemaître? In fact, I would argue that religion is enhanced by science and reason not opposed to it. I would be willing to bet that most politicians in our country have some religious conviction. While I agree that we need intelligent people as leaders, I do not believe that intelligence has anything to do with whether or not someone believes in God.
Personally, I liked Mr. Brown's reaction to the election results. I think it makes him seem down to earth. I do have some questions about him though. Is he pro-life? What does he have to say about transit?
I admit that I am a devilish sinful non-believer. However, I enjoy spiritual experiences, those nebulous wonderings and appreciations of the beauties of nature, including those of mankind, and because of the comfort and pleasure of those feelings, my contemplations seek greater extensions to wherever they may lead me.
But I do have difficulty separating government and religion as it relates to our mayoral race because it seems that both of our leading candidates are of the faith so to speak. The degree to which either of them is “in†the faith, or a believer, is unknown, simply because some politicians may wish to convey that they are believers in order to get the religious vote; a scenario that, in our city, seems to be important, as there are many believers in this area. Let’s hope that at least one of the candidates is not inclined to allow his faith to overcome his reason, as given by Mother Nature, and that this one gets in the mayor’s office.
Genuine belief in a religion implies an inclination, need, and ability to place a good measure of faith in something that may or may not be true, in something about which nothing factual is known, and to act according to the faith and hope that those beliefs are in fact true. The use or possession of extreme levels of faith and hope existed within most individuals in Europe during the Dark Ages, a period when most were quite ignorant of many important truths of nature and history. Admittedly we all, including non-believers, engage in “small†measures of faith and hope during our everyday lives, as it is necessary and beneficial in the real world.
Excessive levels of faith can offer unwarranted confidence in the future, allowing one to miss opportunities for rational confrontation and solution to the problems before them. Excessive faith can, if powerful enough over long periods, cause various levels of temporary delusional mental states; which, even though existing in low to moderate degrees, certainly have no place in important political offices, such as the mayor’s office.
Governmental decisions require objective analysis of all problems, with the use of reasonably high levels of objectivity and reason to affect decisions and actions for resolution. There is no place in critical political office positions for more than the minimal use of faith and hope. To have in our mayor’s office a leader who has excessive inclinations of faith and hope, especially to a degree exceeding moderation, to a degree that it replaces options for objective thought and reasoning, is a condition we should avoid, as it only insures and perpetuates mediocrity at the top, with the result that we solve only a few of the many problems within our city.
I certainly do not want to fly with an airline pilot who, because of his religious belief, as encouraged by his church and pastor, feels that he must have a good measure of faith that he can safely and competently fly the airplane; feels that he must garner the faith to navigate properly to the destination; and have the faith that the weather will allow him to land safely at the destination airport.
I want to fly with a pilot who uses his full power of perception to see exactly what is before him, including the weather; who knows exactly how he is to accomplish a safe flight all the way to the destination, who has the confidence because of his skills, and “not†because of his faith; who uses his high level of skill to get safely from airport “A†to airport “Bâ€. In any endeavor, as the faith increases, reason and objectivity decreases, and as the reason and objectivity decreases, progress is stagnant, and problems remain unsolved. Faith involves luck, with the possibility of success, but with the high probability of mediocrity and stagnation. A lack of faith encourages rational and objective thought, determination, and action, with the assurance of success and progress toward meaningful goals.
This is not to say that large doses of faith is always to be avoided, because some individuals who are experiencing very trying conditions, where they have little or no resources, such as Stephen’s L’ill Mama, “must†garner large amounts of faith simply to survive, to have the strength to continue on every day; and in every case, the period of survival as allowed by their faith, will either bring defeat, or will allow them to triumph in the end. In other words, high levels of faith should not be used or abused, a condition encouraged by some churches and pastors, “unless†there is a real need for it, such as when there are little or no resources as one endures very trying and dangerous conditions.
Of course, the game of some types of churches is to encourage the believer’s feelings that he or she is enduring trying and dangerous times, wherein unless one believes and does the right things, and tithes the right amount, one is going to burn in hell, or at least one will not enjoy various rewards here on earth. I’ll have to admit that if I believed this kind of thing, I would fear going to hell, and would garner the faith by any means available, would tithe even more than ten percent, to insure I could maintain the faith that I would in the end go to heaven.
As in many scenarios in life and nature, every attribute or quality has a spectrum along which a quantity may lie from the left to the right, from zero to infinity, from angelic to the very evil; and it seems to be that the use of, or dependence on, faith can also be placed upon the continuum line. I prefer that our mayor be on the lower side of the spectrum when it comes to the use of or dependence on faith.
It's not a judgement of you or anyone as a person. There's good people of all different beliefs (or non-belief). And I think we actually agree on some of these things. I don't see faith as something that should cause crippling inaction on important issues.
It's like the story of the man who is adrift at sea so he prays for God to deliver him. After a while some people in a boat pass by. They try to get him to come on board, but he tells all of them that everything's ok because God will save him. So he ends up dying at sea, and he gets to heaven and asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God says to him, "Well, I sent you a boat. What more do you want?" I personally believe we are one of the instruments by which God works, and you are right that sitting around waiting for something to miraculously happen isn't necessarily the best way to conduct yourself.
So while I am not going to vote for someone solely for what religion they practice, I will try to vote for someone who shares my values and someone I think will do the best job tackling the issues I feel are important.
And I will counter with this: not believing in God takes an equal if not greater leap of faith as believing in God. The difference is where that faith is placed. I place my faith in a loving God who will support me through life's difficulties. A non-believer places his faith in himself. Not believing in God assumes that the finite human mind is capable of understanding the infinite universe. It assumes that a fallible person is capable of overcoming life's challenges more or less on their own. And I don't mean any of that as a put down because I used to be agnostic myself. I just chalk it up to the fact that we are on different places on our life journeys.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on March 26, 2011, 01:23:50 PM
And I will counter with this: not believing in God takes an equal if not greater leap of faith as believing in God. The difference is where that faith is placed. I place my faith in a loving God who will support me through life's difficulties. A non-believer places his faith in himself. Not believing in God assumes that the finite human mind is capable of understanding the infinite universe. It assumes that a fallible person is capable of overcoming life's challenges more or less on their own. And I don't mean any of that as a put down because I used to be agnostic myself. I just chalk it up to the fact that we are on different places on our life journeys.
I think you mean to say you were an atheist, because agnostics often actually DO believe in a higher power.
Quotea person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
Atheists on the other hand staunchly believe in the "non-existence of a God"
And rather than putting "all faith in themselves," both groups believe in the "randomness" of the universe ( with agnostics believing in the possibility of a God).
It's more like "it is what it is," without the benefit of religion to use as a crutch/comfort to get them through the hard times in life. Nor do they praise themselves when things go well.........instead they thank the universe..........or maybe even "Lady Luck" ;)
Neither the atheist nor the agnostic claims to be able to understand the universe.