I've mentioned this plenty of times in the past, since MJ went live in 2006. Whether its a streetcar starter, integrating the skyway with the existing bus system or simply getting a demonstration BRT line up and running efficiently without federal money, the clock is ticking for JTA to prove their worth to the community. This is something that a public advertising campaign isn't going to solve as long as the only system we have running on our streets is the discombobulated one we have now. Read it and weep:
QuoteThe tax steers about $30 million each year to JTA, about one-third of its operating budget. The agency says it would have to greatly scale back operations without the money.
Hogan and Brown said if the city extended the tax rather than let it expire, that amounts to a tax increase.
Hogan said the city "needs to cut wasteful spending to free up funding, not continue the unfair tax burdens."
Brown said JTA should use more fuel-efficient buses and look to the private sector for support of transit.
QuoteAudrey Moran said eliminating the tax entirely would hurt JTA's ability to run its bus service, which she said is crucial to helping the jobless connect with employment opportunities.
QuoteRick Mullaney said he "would not necessarily be opposed" to an extension.
QuoteWarren Lee also would support an extension.
QuoteHogan said eliminating unneeded transportation projects would offset the loss of gas tax money.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-03-20/story/mayoral-candidates-dont-all-agree-jta-gas-tax-extension#ixzz1H8mf2pRC
Here is the general consensus of the TU commenter's. I guess they don't realize how much their roads are costing us.
QuoteWhy tax me to pay for a bus? If you decide to ride the bus then pay your way. Hey I've got an idea why don't we raise taxes to pay my car note, insurance and the cost of maintaining my vehicle! Yes I understand that people who don't have jobs are struggling etc ride the bus but again yet another program for the less fortunate that I MUST be taxed for. Folks pay your way live the American dream on your own coat tails not mine.
I am not opposed to the tax. I am opposed to the way we are taxed. More specifically... Once upon a time we approved a $.06 tax on gasoline sales to fund... something transportation related. I'm guessing it was important at the time... Hell it was probably very heatedly debated. Apparently the next Mayor and I'm guessing city council will vote to approve an extension. We will not get to vote on it... nor will we have any say in where it goes and what it will be used for. Rather than going into JTA's general operating funds... I would like to see the 30 million targeted towards a specific and identifiable use. I would also like to see the folks decide 30 mill for 20 new buses, 30 mil for a streetcar starter, 30 mil for the S-line starter, 30 mil for skyway upgrade... etc.
I and others like me are not opposed to the $.06... we would like to see what it accomplishes rather going down some giant dark hole at JTA for "operating expenses"
But without money from somewhere going to "operating expense" the already poor bus service will become worse. We talk about the need to reduce the wait time between buses - without this money, the wait time between buses - if you even have a bus route - will get even longer.
I am opposed to expanding bus service in any way, shape, or form until we build bus shelters that will actually allow people to ride the bus. Our bus system is a complete waste until we make the bus at least "kinda" attractive to ride. Covered shelters with benches and a route map or electronic marquee with updates on times is a priority, then we can expand the service
Plain and simple. The gas tax will need to be extended for the very reasons Moran stated. Matt carlucci
60¢ each time you fill a 20 gallon tank seems like a pittance. Sadly, too many don't see the simple fact that roads are subsidized sooo much more than transit.
I hope these fine folks at the tU boards are up in arms over each new bridge, interchange and repaving.
Our State and local governments seem driven by consumption and short term infrastructure.
Pave, then pave again. Dismantle rail which encourages denser (cheaper in terms of infrastructure) population.
We move away from urban cores, then bitch about a few pennies going to those filthy poor people who actually ride buses.
Consider it an interest only loan for the infrastructure that subsidized your neighborhood's existence,.
Not to mention the real estate owner who sold the land which benefited from the inflated value afforded by the infrastructure. (Most likely a well connected person willing to seek out subsidization on a much grander scale)
/rant
BT is right too. JTA needs to be accountable to the public as well. Too often money spent by JTA seems wasteful and ineffectual.
Quote from: mfc on March 20, 2011, 01:08:32 PM
Plain and simple. The gas tax will need to be extended for the very reasons Moran stated. Matt carlucci
Really? Seems kinda hard to audit or visualize...
QuoteAudrey Moran said eliminating the tax entirely would hurt JTA's ability to run its bus service, which she said is crucial to helping the jobless connect with employment opportunities.
I would prefer... " We will spend 30 mil on x...y... or z. AND we will revisit the tax in two years. If the taxpayers are dissatisfied with the progress on x,y, or z... they vote the tax out or redirect it to another specific, identifiable JTA goal.
Quote from: simms3 on March 20, 2011, 12:55:48 PM
I am opposed to expanding bus service in any way, shape, or form until we build bus shelters that will actually allow people to ride the bus. Our bus system is a complete waste until we make the bus at least "kinda" attractive to ride. Covered shelters with benches and a route map or electronic marquee with updates on times is a priority, then we can expand the service
I suggest you check out all the new shelters JTA has been installing around town next time you visit.
BTW...as to the gas tax itself...the Federal tax is $0.19...let's assume someone drives 20,000 miles a year and that their car averages 25mpg....means 800 gallons of gas a year and $152 in taxes...which equates to $13 a month.
As for the local gas tax, the $0.06 costs the average driver about $4 a month...even if I didn't like or use transit, I'd pay that much just to keep some other folks off the road and lessen my congestion.
How many of our other utilities (like water, cable TV, phone, electric) can be had for that price?
Give a full penny to mass transit, and define it broadly to include walkers, scooters, Bikes and Skate Boards just all of the conventional means of mass transit.
Allow JTA to co-op with JEA, JAA and JPA, to create marketable energy and other product lines that would return a profit on investment. I'm not suggesting that JTA invest in a local version of "Big Lots," rather there are several new mas transit technologies, mostly involving hi-tech gas conversions,sewage, tides, and solar energy, plus transmission and storage any one of which has the potential toll.
Under our new "Tea Party Fringe" we have we have a unified voice calling for cutting all but the most basic services, school cafeterias restricted to bread and water, and bus transit fleets with the seats ripped out in hock, while headways are cut to a single morning and evening trip (with skyrocketing O&M). Now is the time to roll out austerity methods so dynamic as to be seen as service improvements.
Time to dust off the "subscription bus" concept I introduced here in 1980 and fine tune it. Show the big office and industrial complexes a big tax benefit in getting all of their extra "van pool" vehicles off the road. Allow new or repositioned companies to forgo parking requirements provided they locate near a Skyway, Commuter Rail, Streetcar or BRT station. Allow established companies the same benefits by subscribing to a group of city bus runs that cover the time period of shift changes, moreover allow those bus routes to flex to meet the needs of the companies during those hours only. So while the schedules would remain pretty standard, there would be footnotes like this *All trips operate via The Acosta Bridge to the JRTC, EXCEPT THE 11PM, 7AM, 3PM Which operate via Baptist Hospital and the Fuller Warren Bridge. So employees are polled, addresses known, and route detours set up on certain runs only to cover the customers employees schedules.
Amtrak has suffered needlessly at the hands of clueless well meaning budget cutters to the point where in certain parts of the country is isn't really viable transportation. We cannot allow this to happen to Jacksonville's SKYWAY, STREETCARS, COMMUTER RAIL, WATER TAXIS OR BUSES. Joining forces with the likes of Greyhound, Amtrak, Sunshine Bus, RTS Gainesville, Trailways, RedCoach, allowing them access and to perform certain tasks for the metro, while the JTA performs certain tasks for them. Example? Fernandina Beach, Vilano/St Augustine, St. Augustine/Marineland/Flagler Beach, are all markets that are horribly under served, and allowing the big dogs to get into the game would only broaden the scope of the city's transit network.
Google Bus and Next Bus Technology needs to be on every bus and at all major SHELTERED transit stops.
Ticketing, fares, and passes needs to get into the 21st century, credit cards, debit, gift cards, transfers, cell phones, text, digital connection's, etc.
Express Bus Commuter Connection, needs to roll out a whole new level of MOTOR COACH commuting for Florida. These longer routes covering only morning and evening runs need to pull out the stops...literally:
Individual reading lamps
110 volt outlets at every seat
facing seats with tables
Overhead baggage bins
Airport/Amtrak/Intercity Bus baggage bins under floor
Reclining leather seats
Curtains and blinds
Fully equipped accessable restroom
Free Coffee on-board
On-board music
On-board News
WIFI
Pastry available
Frequent rider programs and rewards...
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: buckethead on March 20, 2011, 02:00:41 PM
60¢ each time you fill a 20 gallon tank seems like a pittance. Sadly, too many don't see the simple fact that roads are subsidized sooo much more than transit.
BT is right too. JTA needs to be accountable to the public as well. Too often money spent by JTA seems wasteful and ineffectual.
Please enlighten. What tax do I pay outside of the pump that pays for roads? Be specific please.
Any higher level of accountability is desirable, especially with any transportation taxes.
As a part of the BJP, we paid for hundreds of millions in road expansion and overpass projects over the last decade. I'm sure there are other examples, but that's a local one.
I have no problem with the gas tax provided JTA must use it exclusively for mass transit and that JTA is transparent, efficient, effective, and accountable to taxpayers (not to the rubber stamping conflict-of-interest TPO, etc.). The fact is, if we don't tax gas and reinvest this money in mass transit, the OPEC countries will get the "tax" as they raise their prices to address the even higher consumption of oil we would have if gas sold for less. And, OPEC isn't going to reinvest that money in our community to wean us off of their oil. (By the way, in many nations, particularly in Europe, gas taxes are several dollars a gallon, not cents. Maybe that's why they have superior mass transit to us.)
Note that nearly 20% of the current tax appears to go toward a single project, operating the Skyway express for likely less than 1 to 2 thousand unique local riders a day. How do you think that will help build support for extending the tax?
For those looking for capital projects, JTA would need to bond dedicated revenues. One year's revenues isn't going pay for much. I believe JTA does this now with our 1/2 cent sales tax originally used to remove tolls and its share of the other 1/2 cent used to fund projects under the Better Jacksonville Plan. The first 1/2 cent should have lapsed by now, as I recall, but JTA had it extended to build more road projects. This may also come up in discussing JTA extending the gas tax.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 20, 2011, 10:14:02 PM
As a part of the BJP, we paid for hundreds of millions in road expansion and overpass projects over the last decade. I'm sure there are other examples, but that's a local one.
BJP is a good examle of a "targeted tax". It was designed to raise money for specific named goals. It was also supposed to go away once those goals were accomplished.
Quote from: spuwho on March 20, 2011, 10:08:44 PM
Please enlighten. What tax do I pay outside of the pump that pays for roads? Be specific please.
Any higher level of accountability is desirable, especially with any transportation taxes.
Sales tax, property tax and income tax.
Heavy Highway Tax, Road Tax, Heavy Vehicle Use Tax, Heavy Haulers vehicle tax, Trucker Tax, annual registration fee, excise tax, vehicle surcharges, personal property tax, high-occupancy toll, Direct · Indirect · Ad valorem, Capital gains, Consumption Dividend, Excise, Georgist Gift, Gross receipts, Income Inheritance (estate), Land value Payroll, Pigovian, Property Sales, Sin, Stamp, Turnover Value-added (VAT) Corporate profit, Excess profits Windfall profits, Contengency fees, CDD fees, fuel taxes, State Taxation of Gasoline,
State Taxation of Special Fuels, Motor-Fuel Tax Provisions on Interstate Motor Carriers, State Licenses and Fees Imposed on Wholesale Distributors of Motor Fuel, State Licenses and Fees Imposed on Retail Dealers of Motor Fuel, State Licenses and Fees Imposed on Users of Motor Fuel, State Liquid-Fuels Inspection Fees
Federal Highway-User Fees, Selective Parking Taxes, urban property tax, Transportation Development Tax
This ought to get you started! Imagine 99% of these just so we can run the Skyway... AMAZING! ;)
OCKLAWAHA ;D
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 20, 2011, 07:08:45 PM
BTW...as to the gas tax itself...the Federal tax is $0.19...let's assume someone drives 20,000 miles a year and that their car averages 25mpg....means 800 gallons of gas a year and $152 in taxes...which equates to $13 a month.
As for the local gas tax, the $0.06 costs the average driver about $4 a month...even if I didn't like or use transit, I'd pay that much just to keep some other folks off the road and lessen my congestion.
How many of our other utilities (like water, cable TV, phone, electric) can be had for that price?
Great points tufsu1! I so wish people wouldn't have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word "taxes." After all, taxes are the price you pay to live and do business in a civilized society!!
It continues to annoy me that the federal tax was set at $0.19 per gallon in 1993. They could have at least indexed it to inflation..............but it really would have been best if it had been set at 19% which is what the $0.19 represented at the roughly $1 price tag per gallon that we enjoyed in 1993.
With people driving less due to high gas prices and the reduced consumprion from fuel efficient cars, we have a huge deficit in federal revenues needed to repair our failing bridges and roads. We are stuck with 1. when we should have 2.
Quote
1. less gallons sold X .19 ( which used to be 19% of our 1993 gallon price) = less for needed bridge and road repairs.
2. less gallons sold X 19% of higher price per gallon = enough to repair and maintain
Across the nation, drivers face more than 90,000 miles of crumbling highways and more than 70,000 structurally deficient bridges.
http://www.floridapirgstudents.org/reports/energy/energy-reports/road-work-ahead-holding-government-accountable-for-fixing-americas-crumbling-roads-and-bridges
On the local level Audrey Moran was right on the need to support transit ( and she would have had my vote if I were to reside in Duval). I hope she will convince Alvin Brown of the same so he can disinguish himself on that point from Hogan.
Let's hope Audrey will endorse Alvin Brown for Mayor!!
I favor a gas tax extension but I'm biased. I feel that the overall outcome of the Better Jacksonville Plan (BJP) was a disappointment, so it would be hard to sell the public on more taxes for transportation. There should have been more planning before the BJP was funded.
QuoteAfter all, taxes are the price you pay to live and do business in a civilized society!!
Yeah, that's exactly what the founding fathers thought to do, tax the hell out of everyone, we want to create a new land that is equally as oppresive as the one we just left in England. Not to mention a debtor society to the rest of the world. But, hey what did they know right?
Quoteand they certainly werent anti tax.
There you go again, as quoted by Reagan, re-writing history, seems I remember some indian-like citizens in a certain harbor......yeah, what were they doing again Stephen? Singing campfire songs and banding together like a union?
QuoteThey were against their money being spent without having some say so as to how it was spent.
GO DUVAL COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM!
You boys ever hear of the "Whiskey Rebellion?" When our founding fathers decided the national debit could use a little extra help and they taxed the shit out of spirits, nearly leading to a full fledged war... Things quieted down only after this land founded on supposed freedom from tax oppression called in the Continental Army to round up the stills! Damn tax and spend founding fathers anyway!QuoteThe Whiskey Rebellion
George Washington's Proclamation calling Out The Militia To Occupy the Western Counties of Pennsylvania
As It Appears In the August 11, 1794 issue of Claypoole's Daily Advertiser
Angered by an excise tax imposed on whiskey in 1791 by the federal government, farmers in the western counties of Pennsylvania engaged in a series of attacks on excise agents.
The tariff effectively eliminated any profit by the farmers from the sale or barter of an important cash crop, and became the lightning rod for a wide variety of grievances by the settlers of the region against the federal government.
While citizens in the east did not find it difficult to abide by the concept that individual states were "subservient to the country," people west of the mountains were less accepting of decisions made by the central government.
The rebel farmers continued their attacks, rioting in river towns and roughing up tax collectors until the so-called "insurrection" flared into the open in July of 1794 when a federal marshal was attacked in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Almost at the same time several hundred men attacked the residence of the regional inspector, burning his home, barn and several outbuildings. Pittsburgh was another scene of disorder by enraged mobs.
On August 7, 1794, President Washington issued a proclamation, calling out the militia and ordering the disaffected westerners to return to their homes. Washington's order mobilized an army of approximately 13,000 â€" as large as the one that had defeated the British â€" under the command of General Harry Lee, the then-Governor of Virginia and father of Robert E. Lee. Washington himself, in a show of presidential authority, set out at the head of the troops to suppress the uprising.
This was the first use of the Militia Law of 1792 setting a precedent for the use of the militia to "execute the laws of the union, (and) suppress insurrections," asserting the right of the national government to enforce order in one state with troops raised in other states. Even more importantly, it was the first test of power of the new federal government, establishing its primacy in disputes with individual states. In the end, a dozen or so men were arrested, sent to Philadelphia to trial and released after pardons by Washington.
SOURCE: http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/whiskey/
Someone please tell me again how George Washington and the Sons of Liberty were anti-tax?OCKLAWAHA