Salvaging The Skyway
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6970-p1150892.JPG)
The future of the skyway has become one of the most contentious talking points during this year's mayoral race. Here are five affordable solutions that have the ability to increase ridership while reducing the amount of subsidies needed for onging operations.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-mar-salvaging-the-skyway
Great stuff again, Lake. I'm afraid you're mostly regurgitating your old explanations, which means the point must still be driven home. But I believe that eventually we'll get it.
Call Brad Thoburn at the JTA, he can help. Fresh off his gig for FDOT and used to be with the City, he has insights into how the JTA plans to use the Skyway with their light rail plans. Apparently the intermodal system at the Prime is back on with Mica and his new 6 year transportation project plan.
Good points.
I'll always remember attending the invite only meeting with yet to be sworn in council members 4 years ago and the presentation that was given by JTA. Another election cycle and the skyway, new headquarters, TOD, Waterbourne transportation were part of the presentations.
Question.
Does the new JTA headquarters get built now? The proposed location is near the Prime Osborn?
What is the current projected cost of the new building?
If you don't build the building then that money could be used for a street car line from the Prime Osborn to the stadium?
If the new building gets built is there some Federal money that is the carrot as to why we will have to build a new transportation hub now?
Just asking but the cost of the elevated track which has been very well documented. if streetcars and the conversion from what ever elevated rail is already in place is then replaced with track. Imagine the streetcar coming back from the stadium and then takes the elevated ramp up to what were the skyway cars. Any thoughts on that?
At that invite only meeting 4 years ago there was a small portion for Waterborne Transportation. Hovercraft was being considered. But right now with the potential of a SHIPYARDS III 2010-604 now more than ever the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier aka Jacksonville's Downtown Tradeport Pier needs to be separate. Wanted to get that in there. Its transportation. Just on the water. Maybe not a hovercraft. But more access to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River within our Downtown Jacksonville Overlay Zoning District. 2003-627
Excellent points & ideas. I still believe building the skyway out like originally intended (and beyond), creating more stops and integrating neighborhoods in the core would bring the biggest boost in ridership.
In the meantime, I hope these ideas for the current skyway make their way to JTA.
Great Ideas Lake, I would have love Audrey's campaign comment on this thread.
(http://www.houseofzot.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/monofail1.jpg)
Hehehe
-Josh
Great idea. I dont see why JTA think its so bothersome to expand it as well. An expansion to the sports complex, riverside avenue and may the hilton/double tree would be a smart investment. Also, the idea of eliminated the bus routes in the core as you mentioned would work wonders as well. I dont think the skyway is a waste, it is underutilized. We have to find a way to make it worth the tax payers dollars. And JTA has failed to do so. But at this point, as the saying goes, I think we should leave well enough alone. Shutting it down is NOT the answer, that is a cop out.
Mend it, don't end it. Expand it? No. Now if JTA found a private partner to fund the expansion, maybe.
The Conservative solution to everything that is considered a problem is to tear it down instead of fix the problem. Your ideas are BRILLIANT as always. You understand how to move toward correcting the problem instead of obliterating what is considered a problem. Most people here forget the Miami Metromover was reviled and there was discussion of closing and or tearing it down. After smart people corrected the problem, it now flourishes. Can Jacksonville please look south?
Also can someone please tell Andy Johnson that his total disdain for money spent for any improvements in downtown Jacksonville is not a true reflection of progressive thinking that will help our city. I know that being fiscally conservative is his first and foremost belief, but he sounds more like the tea party than a progressive. He is the main outlet for local progressive thinking people to listen to on the radio and he is against EVERYTHING.
He is telling his listeners NOT to vote for Audrey Moran, but instead to vote for Mike Hogan. Mike Hogan and Rick Mullaney are what we don't need in Jax if we are to ever leave the 20th century thinking that has permeated this city for years now. I know Alvin Brown may be a good candidate, but I don't believe that a Democrat has a chance of being the mayor of Jacksonville, at least not right now.
If the runoff is between Hogan and Mullaney we all lose.
Lake, as noted, this is a "nice summary" of all the points made previously by fans of the Skyway. If keeping the Skyway operational is the goal, your points for better utilization make some sense. I do remain very skeptical that Jax bus riders and commuters will relish or find very practical an extra 15 to 30 minutes and the "hassle" of transferring from one mode of transit to the Skyway for that last mile downtown but knock yourself out and see what happens. Test the "academic" theory against real world dynamics.
Where we differ is I don't think that doing all 5 steps you recommend is going to make the Skyway shine bright enough to justify keeping it. (Maybe, secretly, JTA also thinks it is all a waste of time so that is why they don't bother with your suggestions.)
The 30,000 rider figure for that "successful" Miami mover that is so "extensive" compared to ours is the ridership number the Skyway was supposed to produce for what already exists. So, advocating spending multiple times what we have already spent to match Miami's spend to get the originally projected Skyway ridership is not something to crow about. It's actually bait and switch with the deal originally promised taxpayers when the Skyway was built. (P.S. I doubt 30,000 riders a day was the original projection for the Miami system as currently built. Do you know these projections for benchmarking its "success"? It only appears "successful" compared to the lowly and failing Skyway.) Quote2. Shutting the system down would require the city to repay the U.S. Department of Transportation $90 million. Talk about a budget buster?
3. Shutting the system down would put Jacksonville in a horrible position to get federal assistance for future federal projects. Imagine Jacksonville's future economic potential when gas hits $5.00 a gallon and we still don't have viable alternative mobility options in our 800-square mile city?
To your point number (2), the CITY wouldn't owe the money, JTA would. If it busted JTA's road building and office palace plans, I think that would be a glorious outcome all by itself. And, again (and again), you ignore the point (and the thread I started on it at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,11448.0.html) asking for proof of the calculations of this ever changing payout number, the terms and conditions for its expiration/phase out, and whether anyone can produce a canceled check to the Feds for such a reimbursement ever being paid. You also ignore again and again the politics that would likely make this payment, if it is even real, go away.
As to your point (3), it mostly goes along with the argument made in (2) that we will be "punished" by the Feds for abandoning the Skyway. I, for one, again, don't believe the politics would allow that. And, compare that "punishment" to the one given to local mass transit by the local citizenry due the continued operation of the Skyway serving as a monument to pork barrel boondoggle mass transit projects. Some of the mayoral candidates' political sensibilities seem to be noting this and are hinting at the same point I make: If we want to advance mass transit in Jax, we need to take one step back by eliminating the Skyway before taking three steps forward with far better solutions like commuter rail, streetcars, and an improved bus system.
Keep whistling Dixie. An "A" for persistence.
Quote from: avonjax on March 16, 2011, 12:20:28 PM
The Conservative solution to everything that is considered a problem is to tear it down instead of fix the problem.
Not really, Avon. I would hardly call myself a "conservative" by today's standards! The Skyway needs to be viewed versus alternative uses of the money within the line item category of "Mass Transit." Looked at this way, some of us think it ranks at the very bottom of efficient deployment of taxpayer's capital directed toward mass transit. The Skyway's problem is its 90% failure rate after more than two decades which I equate to failure of the concept it represents. That's why doing more of the same doesn't sway me that it will work any better than it does now. Even government is not immune from cutting losses at some point on a sinkhole of a project. Let's reinvest that money in mass transit that truly delivers.
Quote from: stjr on March 16, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
I do remain very skeptical that Jax bus riders and commuters will relish or find very practical an extra 15 to 30 minutes and the "hassle" of transferring from one mode of transit to the Skyway for that last mile downtown but knock yourself out and see what happens. Test the "academic" theory against real world dynamics.
I didn't have to read any further than this statement to blow your academic theory to pieces. Here's a question for you STJR, "How long does it take the WS2 to get from Rosa Park to the ATT Building?" I'll give you a hint, it's more than 20 minutes, typically. Now, how long does it take the Skyway? Less than 5. So even figuring in the 6-7 minute wait for a train, you still make the trip faster than the bus. How do I know this? I ACTUALLY RIDE THE BUS. If my 1st transfer at Rosa Park is a little late, I know that I can hoof it to the ATT building to catch my ride, or I can hop in the skyway and pick it up - either way - I still catch-up with the bus.
How's that for 'real world dynamics?'
I totally agree with Lake that the skyway is under-utilized by the same people that operate it. I've stated 'real world dynamics' in numerous threads about the subject, and totally agree that MOST of the DT circulating busses could be re-routedin a way that would not only increase the head-times of the routes, but increase the ridership of the skyway exponentially - then maybe they could actaully show a reason for expansion.
Furthermore, these options are of no real cost addition. They should actually lower the costs ofthe system by consolidating the bus lines and allowing advertising (to offset the losses at the farebox).
Why not make the system a little better for free until we decide what the next step should be?
Quote from: Jason on March 16, 2011, 01:23:32 PM
Furthermore, these options are of no real cost addition. They should actually lower the costs ofthe system by consolidating the bus lines and allowing advertising (to offset the losses at the farebox).
Why not make the system a little better for free until we decide what the next step should be?
The other thing that I would do is rip out the turnstiles at the 'transfer' stations - Rosa Park, Convention Center & King Ave. If you get on at one of these stations, it's free, but if you want to hop on at Jefferson, it's still the $.50
And everyone must remember that MOST of Jacksonville's residents live outside of downtown. In fact the VAST majority.
And guess what?
THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT DOWNTOWN!!!
If the skyway is ever shut down or demolished it will be the end of any kind of mass transit other than bus, at least in most of our life times.
The citizens of Jax on the NS, WS, SS etc do not really care. Most of them do not work downtown and most of them don't go downtown.
I literally know hundreds of people who have not gone downtown in years, or in some cases ever.
When the city government finds a way to stop business from abandoning downtown office buildings to migrate to Southside, and finding a way to return to the idea of getting 10,000 or more people living downtown, then we will possibly see the skyway being used. But as long as it doesn't conveniently serve the residents and office workers, it's going to be an uphill battle.
As adamant as STJR is of getting rid of the skyway altogether, I am just as adamant that the city should find sensible solutions to make it work.
If a streetcar system was under construction right now, then I could be persuaded, but if the skyway ever comes down before, we will never see anything but buses downtown.
I am really tired of one side of the fence screaming about waste, yet never finding a sensible solution to making what already exists work. Just getting rid of it, or starting on a new concept flies in the face of waste.
Lake is right about the Skyway. And I believe it could be corrected and become a useful system.
And another thing. Most people I know from EVERY part of town, have never even ridden the Skyway.
Maybe incorporating it into the Art Walk more often would be nice.
Quote from: avonjax on March 16, 2011, 02:51:46 PM
And everyone must remember that MOST of Jacksonville's residents live outside of downtown. In fact the VAST majority.
And guess what?
THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT DOWNTOWN!!!
If the skyway is ever shut down or demolished it will be the end of any kind of mass transit other than bus, at least in most of our life times.
The citizens of Jax on the NS, WS, SS etc do not really care. Most of them do not work downtown and most of them don't go downtown.
I literally know hundreds of people who have not gone downtown in years, or in some cases ever.
When the city government finds a way to stop business from abandoning downtown office buildings to migrate to Southside, and finding a way to return to the idea of getting 10,000 or more people living downtown, then we will possibly see the skyway being used. But as long as it doesn't conveniently serve the residents and office workers, it's going to be an uphill battle.
As adamant as STJR is of getting rid of the skyway altogether, I am just as adamant that the city should find sensible solutions to make it work.
If a streetcar system was under construction right now, then I could be persuaded, but if the skyway ever comes down before, we will never see anything but buses downtown.
I am really tired of one side of the fence screaming about waste, yet never finding a sensible solution to making what already exists work. Just getting rid of it, or starting on a new concept flies in the face of waste.
Lake is right about the Skyway. And I believe it could be corrected and become a useful system.
Jacksonville is strange place with a strange mentality regarding it's downtown. I've heard people say they don't come DT because they have trouble with directional streets :-\
People not coming downtown to work / live / play is exactly the reason why the skyway needs to be improved and utilized. Every city needs a thriving urban core and ours is obviously a ways behind.
Its been elevn years since the system was extended. I really dont see why they refuse to go up Bay Street to the Sports Complex. Dont know why they wont connect Springfield with Riverside. They dont have to do it all at once, but man even 1 new station every 5 years is progress. They started in 87 with 3 stations not sure when Rosa Parks & Hemming came. Kings Ave & River came in 2000. Its like they gave up on it.
Quote from: avonjax on March 16, 2011, 02:51:46 PM
And everyone must remember that MOST of Jacksonville's residents live outside of downtown. In fact the VAST majority.
And guess what?
THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT DOWNTOWN!!!
If the skyway is ever shut down or demolished it will be the end of any kind of mass transit other than bus, at least in most of our life times.
The citizens of Jax on the NS, WS, SS etc do not really care. Most of them do not work downtown and most of them don't go downtown.
I literally know hundreds of people who have not gone downtown in years, or in some cases ever.
When the city government finds a way to stop business from abandoning downtown office buildings to migrate to Southside, and finding a way to return to the idea of getting 10,000 or more people living downtown, then we will possibly see the skyway being used. But as long as it doesn't conveniently serve the residents and office workers, it's going to be an uphill battle.
As adamant as STJR is of getting rid of the skyway altogether, I am just as adamant that the city should find sensible solutions to make it work.
If a streetcar system was under construction right now, then I could be persuaded, but if the skyway ever comes down before, we will never see anything but buses downtown.
I am really tired of one side of the fence screaming about waste, yet never finding a sensible solution to making what already exists work. Just getting rid of it, or starting on a new concept flies in the face of waste.
Lake is right about the Skyway. And I believe it could be corrected and become a useful system.
That pretty solid! If they get rid of it. NO system Will ever replace it. Jax will be a slow moving parking lot in years to come. Its still a young system, but people are just not communicating. People either want to save a lil money or make a quick buck. Why not save alot of money & make tons of money over time?
At least expan it to the sports complex, then watch the ridership increase 10 fold.
Quote from: urbaknight on March 16, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
At least expan it to the sports complex, then watch the ridership increase 10 fold.
I don't think so. Most of the time there's nothing going on east of Liberty St. Are there really enough events at the sports complex to justify the cost?
There's arena football, baseball's about to start up, of course the Jags, shows at the arena, stuff at the campground and depending on the route that it takes, clubs on bay st, the florida theatre, the jail, maxwell house, berkman, burrito gallery, the old folks home (cathedral apts?), the episcopal church?, bail bondsmen/attorneys galore (yeah, I lump them together for a reason ;D).....
I can keep going, but I guess that you don't venture that far east very often.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 16, 2011, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on March 16, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
At least expan it to the sports complex, then watch the ridership increase 10 fold.
I don't think so. Most of the time there's nothing going on east of Liberty St. Are there really enough events at the sports complex to justify the cost?
My vote would be for a skyway extension across the FEC RR tracks to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco.
I am less enthusiastic about the other extensions that have been discussed. Personally, I would benefit the most from a skyway extension that would go part of the way towards the sports complex, i.e. to Market or Liberty.
I don't think that there will be any skyway extensions unless or until a private sector funding source could be found.
I think the skyway should be extended to Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, and the Sports Complex. By also eliminating buses downtown or feeding them into the skyway, this will ensure the most ridership possible.
I'm going to try to communicate some of what I think I've learned here at MJ.
Expanding the Skyway to points A, B, and C will have minimal effect unless it is part of a more comprehensive transit system.
Connectivity isn't a cliche without good reason.
Solution: Get the whole ball of wax rolling.
For less than the cost of a couple major interchanges.
This is where my conservative brethren are misinformed. (No comment from Faye is necessary... it sounds better coming from me :) )
Roads are more expensive to the taxpayer, and less cost effective. No segment of a transit system will replace roads. Only a usable, moderately (at a minimum) comprehensive system can be successful.
How'd I do?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 16, 2011, 04:47:13 PM
My vote would be for a skyway extension across the FEC RR tracks to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco.
I am less enthusiastic about the other extensions that have been discussed. Personally, I would benefit the most from a skyway extension that would go part of the way towards the sports complex, i.e. to Market or Liberty.
I don't think that there will be any skyway extensions unless or until a private sector funding source could be found.
I agree, a San Marco extension will get the most bang for the buck. Three potential TODs have been identified along the route (Kings Avenue - at the stormwater ponds; Lasalle Street; and Atlantic). I have spent the last three months talking to property owners and developers in each area and all are optimistic about the idea and appear willing to contribute to the cost. Would they pay for the entire extension? Doubtful - but with tax increment financing a portion of it could be privately funded.
As far as the idea of building out the 'San Marco' station - here is a photo demonstrating just how much volume is available for a better use:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/6y1vsi.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/x1zk40.jpg)
This is issue is all about leadership or the lack thereof.
One more thing...
The Skyway should be free. It will be an amenity to those choosing to support downtown by living and working there. Then we can also end the conversation about the system paying for itself. The reimbursement to the taxpayers is the more dense, efficient urban environment that does not cost as much to support as the suburburbs.
It's a small thing, and I've mentioned it before, but something that may help Skyway ridership is making it easier to tell which way the cars are going. Riding the Skyway is confusing, which is a towering accomplishment in pointless WTF-ery, considering how few destinations there are to begin with.
QuoteI do remain very skeptical that Jax bus riders and commuters will relish or find very practical an extra 15 to 30 minutes and the "hassle" of transferring from one mode of transit to the Skyway for that last mile downtown but knock yourself out and see what happens. Test the "academic" theory against real world dynamics.
Why not? We did it in Baltimore with the light rail. I used to take the #10 bus downtown, transfer to light rail to Patapsco station then the bus to Arundel Mills Mall. People will grouse, but they will get used to whatever new transit plans are implemented and I think if the long run brings shorter headways and more efficient service there will be little complaining.
In 2010
OMNI HOTEL BUILDING
Omni Jacksonville paid $323,198.50
AV Group at the Omni paid $735.57
Lodgenet Entertainment paid $133.71
T-Mobile paid $1,440.21
Omni Hotel Corp paid $51,493.07
WELLS FARGO BUILDING
CB Richard Ellis paid $4,673.33
Equitable Life paid $365.55
Rutledge Law paid $681.24
Allstate Ins paid $337.59
Craig/IS ltd paid $14,532.40
Gunster Law paid $4,378.42
Smith Haulsey Busey paid $8,007.94
Foundation Financial paid $502.03
HUB OEC Properties paid $610,038.42
HILTON-HOMEWOOD SUITES BUILDING
Alex Brown Reality paid $200,871.80
San Marco Hotel Partners paid $77,940.19
John Wagner paid $2,103.31
Just a few of the "fares" paid to the City by the Skyway last year...
OCKLAWAHA
Early this evening I was talking to some young people about downtown, the Skyway and other related topics.
We talked about Art Walk and I told them they should check it out. The response from them was, "There is no place to park." I told them that Art Walk was at night after business hours. Again they said "there is no place to park." I kindly explained that there are more parking garages and surface parking lots than buildings. Finally the young lady said, "I can't parallel park." This, I am afraid, is the perception that keeps many people from going downtown. I guess they think all parking is parallel parking and the effort is not worth it.
How the heck do people pass the road test if they can't parallel park? At any rate parallel parking not required at a parking garage duh.
Quote from: avonjax on March 16, 2011, 11:27:13 PM
Early this evening I was talking to some young people about downtown, the Skyway and other related topics.
We talked about Art Walk and I told them they should check it out. The response from them was, "There is no place to park." I told them that Art Walk was at night after business hours. Again they said "there is no place to park." I kindly explained that there are more parking garages and surface parking lots than buildings. Finally the young lady said, "I can't parallel park." This, I am afraid, is the perception that keeps many people from going downtown. I guess they think all parking is parallel parking and the effort is not worth it.
I would have to say this is true. If I hadn't made a deliberate attempt to explore all of the city after I moved here, I wouldn't have known any of this either.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 16, 2011, 11:27:11 PM
In 2010
OMNI HOTEL BUILDING
Omni Jacksonville paid $323,198.50
AV Group at the Omni paid $735.57
Lodgenet Entertainment paid $133.71
T-Mobile paid $1,440.21
Omni Hotel Corp paid $51,493.07
WELLS FARGO BUILDING
CB Richard Ellis paid $4,673.33
Equitable Life paid $365.55
Rutledge Law paid $681.24
Allstate Ins paid $337.59
Craig/IS ltd paid $14,532.40
Gunster Law paid $4,378.42
Smith Haulsey Busey paid $8,007.94
Foundation Financial paid $502.03
HUB OEC Properties paid $610,038.42
HILTON-HOMEWOOD SUITES BUILDING
Alex Brown Reality paid $200,871.80
San Marco Hotel Partners paid $77,940.19
John Wagner paid $2,103.31
Just a few of the "fares" paid to the City by the Skyway last year...
OCKLAWAHA
Help me out Ock, I'm having a senior moment - that equates to $1,301,433.28 for the year. Is that Skyway revenue?
Ock is claiming that these three developments are actually transit oriented developments that would not exist today if the skyway were never constructed. The property taxes they generated last year add up to $1,301,433.28. So these TODs/TADs represent a "hidden" $1.34 million in annual revenue driven in by the Skyway. Thus, if we can get into the business of integrating land use with transit, not only would we increase transit ridership, promote economic development and revitalization within the urban core, Jacksonville could actually turn a profit from the stimulation of property tax paying transit oriented development.
Ock, brings up a great point that many overlook. The developer of that particular project actually mentioned that the proximity of the Skyway played a role in decision making process.
The Skyway has become nothing more than a political scapegoat. Pure and simple, the Skyway has low ridership numbers because downtown has low occupancy rates.
The numbers have been increasing by my observation recently. But, with one track down for maintenance in San Marco it has doubled the headway times. Does anyone know when it will be restored to full service?
Notice that the ridership numbers have been increasing despite downtown still declining at the same time. This is due to JTA beginning to streamline routes and better integrate them with the skyway. While the thing does not extend outside of DT and DT is in a state of decline, simple elimination of existing transit route duplication and the conversion of its role as a DT circulator into a transit system spine will dramatically increase ridership on its own. Thus, we can utilize and instantly increase its usage with existing transit system modifications in a manner that saves us money. Assuming we can now turn our attention to actually integrating it with the surrounding land uses, then you have a potential success story on your hands that you'll be able to leverage for additional transit investment in the city.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 17, 2011, 02:26:38 PM
Notice that the ridership numbers have been increasing despite downtown still declining at the same time. This is due to JTA beginning to streamline routes and better integrate them with the skyway. While the thing does not extend outside of DT and DT is in a state of decline, simple elimination of existing transit route duplication and the conversion of its role as a DT circulator into a transit system spine will dramatically increase ridership on its own. Thus, we can utilize and instantly increase its usage with existing transit system modifications in a manner that saves us money. Assuming we can now turn our attention to actually integrating it with the surrounding land uses, then you have a potential success story on your hands that you'll be able to leverage for additional transit investment in the city.
So basically, you need to get the RIGHT mayor in there to yank the scrapegoats in JTA and make them run for their executive lives, then hire the right folks to do what you said.
That got to be the biggest WINNING than Charlie Sheen will ever do.
-Josh
Quote from: thelakelander on March 17, 2011, 02:26:38 PM
Notice that the ridership numbers have been increasing despite downtown still declining at the same time. This is due to JTA beginning to streamline routes and better integrate them with the skyway. While the thing does not extend outside of DT and DT is in a state of decline, simple elimination of existing transit route duplication and the conversion of its role as a DT circulator into a transit system spine will dramatically increase ridership on its own. Thus, we can utilize and instantly increase its usage with existing transit system modifications in a manner that saves us money. Assuming we can now turn our attention to actually integrating it with the surrounding land uses, then you have a potential success story on your hands that you'll be able to leverage for additional transit investment in the city.
They also changed the entire north-south route to run end to end instead of everyone transferring at central station. That made the kings ave to hemming plaza take about half as long.
Some of this is fuzzy math. Is the skyway responsible for the 10,000 jobs that left DT?
One of the few good points is about parking. Yes there is plenty of parking but no one knows about it. The ticket nazis make it impossible during the day and the garages are hidden weekends and after hours.
Just like the skyway, if you make it hard they will not come.
Quote from: bill on March 17, 2011, 03:56:55 PM
Some of this is fuzzy math. Is the skyway responsible for the 10,000 jobs that left DT?
One of the few good points is about parking. Yes there is plenty of parking but no one knows about it. The ticket nazis make it impossible during the day and the garages are hidden weekends and after hours.
Just like the skyway, if you make it hard they will not come.
Yes quantifying is not an exact science. You can note that these developments stated that the skyway was a consideration for them going downtown. I have not seen anyone mention the skyway as a reason for leaving.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 16, 2011, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on March 16, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
At least expand it to the sports complex, then watch the ridership increase 10 fold.
I don't think so. Most of the time there's nothing going on east of Liberty St. Are there really enough events at the sports complex to justify the cost?
I think so, we have the Jags and at the arena we have the Sharks and the Giants. We also have the Suns. There can be concerts the arena as well. I believe it would idea maybe increasing ridership 10 fold was a wishfull exaggeration. But if it goes down bay st I'd put a stop where the Annex building stands today, in order to serve the growing scene on east bay st.
Quote from: urbaknight on March 17, 2011, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 16, 2011, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on March 16, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
At least expand it to the sports complex, then watch the ridership increase 10 fold.
I don't think so. Most of the time there's nothing going on east of Liberty St. Are there really enough events at the sports complex to justify the cost?
I think so, we have the Jags and at the arena we have the Sharks and the Giants. We also have the Suns. There can be concerts the arena as well. I believe it would idea maybe increasing ridership 10 fold was a wishfull exaggeration. But if it goes down bay st I'd put a stop where the Annex building stands today, in order to serve the growing scene on east bay st.
Next month alone there are 20 events being held between the Arena, Met-Park and the Baseball Grounds.
http://www.jaxevents.com/veteransmemorial.php (http://www.jaxevents.com/veteransmemorial.php)
http://www.jaxevents.com/baseballgrounds.php (http://www.jaxevents.com/baseballgrounds.php)
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Recreation+and+Community+Services/Recreation+and+Community+Programming/Recreation+Activities/Metropolitan+Park/Upcoming+Events.htm (http://www.coj.net/Departments/Recreation+and+Community+Services/Recreation+and+Community+Programming/Recreation+Activities/Metropolitan+Park/Upcoming+Events.htm)
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 17, 2011, 02:39:22 PM
So basically, you need to get the RIGHT mayor in there to yank the scrapegoats in JTA and make them run for their executive lives, then hire the right folks to do what you said.
I agree that JTA and the mayor could do much more. But let's not forget that the leadership in our city is, and always will be, a reflection of what the general population wants.
By looking at voting records, we can see that the overwhelming desire of the citizens of Jacksonville is to pay the least amount of taxes as possible. Government and everything associated with it is seen as the most evil form of life on earth. I kind of wish we could have a day where we got to see exactly what our city would look like without any public services. No electricity, no running water, kids wandering the streets aimlessly, endless traffic jams...
I bet the loudest complaints would come from the most vocal anti-tax people.
Well, depending on how this next election turns out, we may just get to live this day over and over for 4 years.
In 1984, my wife and I were supping with one of our favorite couples in our little Arlington home. He was a power broker in the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce, and our conversation turned to the proposed football team. I laughed and said, "Really? What do you think the chances are that we'll ever get a team?" He leaned forward to highlight the secrecy of his message, put a finger to his lips and said, "Shhh, Bob it's a DONE DEAL..." Indeed!COULD THERE BE A RAINBOW'S END TO THE UNFINISHED SKYWAY STORY...
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday054-1-1.jpg)
I think expansion to the stadium right behind an expansion to San Marco at Atlantic would cure any ridership problems. The Stadium line down Bay. is a simple matter for operations, M-F that line could operate as far as Maxwell House/Shipyards III, AND during event days/hours operate as a convenience tool for dispersal of parking. Events would equate to a full system operation all the way to Randolph Av or Everbank Field. Concurrent with the expansions, JTA needs to seriously consider new trains, hopefully with walk through vestibules between cars which allows a single transit officer to police the entire train. Hitachi makes such cars.(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/HatachiMonorailnew.jpg)
There is a model of this Hitachi monorail train sitting on the table in the Skyway Executive Office.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/BAYSTREETSKYWAY-1.jpg)
To those that doubt the SKYWAY will ever get finished please, The Lakelander and I have pounded this home again and again, so read our lips and repeat after me... "DONE DEAL," "DONE DEAL," "DONE DEAL," DITTO FOR THE STREETCAR. OCKLAWAHA
http://www.4shared.com/embed/112924985/fd647513
A little Skyway music to LIFT your spirits...
OCKLAWAHA
Great ideas. What will it take to get lake and ock on the JTA board?
Yes Mam and then some! Of course something as simple as fixing the turn stiles or posting people to keep people from riding for free might be nice! Never have understood just how JTA could post accurate figures regarding RIDERSHIP without making them up or using a crystal ball or cutting cards or what ever! The concept of 3k riders per day is mythical to say the least!
JTA counts the riders when they get on the train - not at the turnstile. It is part of the 'automated' system.
Back to my premise............how many of the 3k are paying customers? Something is not right big fella!
Who cares if they are paying customers! the Skyway should be free, eliminate the turnstiles!
Well.....taxpayers allready subsidize it..............I don't have a problem with free.........I have a problem with prefabed or incorrect figures! Making it the original designed length would be nice also, but the chance of the City funding that are nil! Federal dollars would require alot more data, that is correct, than what is being published!
Based on what I've read on this site, the skyway was set up to fail. The original budget of $XXX included the infrastructure for a system much larger than the one that have today, and it included all the bells and whistles that were both for future advances and some of them unneeded. After the money ran out, the ridership wasn't what it was supposed to be, the system never was finishished and everyone re-located away from DT, the Skyway becomes a really hard sell.
The fact is that using the original numbers for expansion today is laughable because the city already paid for it. To expand the system now, have Lake or Ock quote the $$, is substantially lower than the original costs. If you want to increase the ridership, you have to have it go where the people are. If you want to continue to increase the ridership, you have to have it go where you plan on people being 10-20 years from now. We have people in San Marco, we have people in 5 Pts. We have people in Brentwood. We can expand it to these areas now and make it viable. The biggest challenge that I see is extending it to where everyone will be in a decade.
Quote from: CS Foltz on March 19, 2011, 06:50:44 PM
Well.....taxpayers allready subsidize it..............I don't have a problem with free.........I have a problem with prefabed or incorrect figures! Making it the original designed length would be nice also, but the chance of the City funding that are nil! Federal dollars would require alot more data, that is correct, than what is being published!
I'm not directing this at you CS Foltz - but this whole 'taxpayers subsidizing' talk drives me crazy. ALL forms of publicly operated transportation systems are taxpayer subsidized. At least the way I understand the word 'subsidized'. The only activities that are not 'subsidized' are the ones that require no financial support from any public source of money. I think it would be very difficult to find anything that is not 'subsidized' in some form. Schools are subsidized, food is subsidized, our military is subsidized (100% BTW), air travel is subsidized.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 19, 2011, 07:13:23 PM
After the money ran out, the ridership wasn't what it was supposed to be, the system never was finishished and everyone re-located away from DT, the Skyway becomes a really hard sell.
This is incorrect. Ridership, after two decades, remains some 90% below projections for what has actually been built. Those projections have nothing to do with running out of money (if only it would and then the Skyway would finally be kaput) or not building more sections. In my opinion, the lack of riders mostly reflects the original infeasibility and continued implausibility of the Skyway concept. As to people downtown, the Skyway was suppose to attract them. It's failure to do so is just another of its failed promises. QuoteIf you want to increase the ridership, you have to have it go where the people are. If you want to continue to increase the ridership, you have to have it go where you plan on people being 10-20 years from now. We have people in San Marco, we have people in 5 Pts. We have people in Brentwood. We can expand it to these areas now and make it viable. The biggest challenge that I see is extending it to where everyone will be in a decade.
Westsider, you are making part of my point. The Skyway is not designed or capable of either going to all the neighborhoods you advocate for or penetrating them to the extent you suggest. Aside from pathway issues, historic and residential areas are not going to accept the Skyway monstrosity plodding through their neighborhoods. Nor is it cost effective or operationally efficient for the Skyway to cover much longer distances than currently exists. I think you will find Ock and Lake will at least agree on these points based on their prior posts.
So, as you say, if the Skyway can't be expanded to places you believe "where everyone will be in a decade" it won't be viable. That's one of many reasons to kill it. We are now rowing in the same direction!
The easiest and most affordable thing to do at this time is to fully integrate it with the current mass transit system and let it operate as it was originally designed to do. What do we have to lose? Are we really afraid of increased ridership and a reduction of JTA O&M costs?
Westsider, true that the Skyway could be much, much more then it is today. As Lake has pointed out, a simple integration into the fabric of downtown would do wonders for the little system. Covered walks between significant buildings along the route to tie with the stations. The one part of our transit system that should be operating on a nearly 24/7 basis, is the most neglected portion by JTA, get her operating. Fling open the doors to the stations for licensed vendors and shops. Make the Skyway a center piece and "home office" for downtown ambassadors. Make it a key link in the bus, water taxi and streetcar system. Recognize that the Skyway is more like "Bridgton and Saco River Railway," then it is the CSX or AMTRAK. The animal is tamable, it will just take some will to make it happen.
OCKLAWAHA
* "Bridgton and Saco River Railway," Or the B & SR, known almost universally as the "BUSTED AND STILL RUNNING."
I would ride this on the daily if it someday connected Riverside (my hood) to Springfield (my job). I would ride it to every downtown event (art walk, parades, etc.), every Jags game (season ticket holder), to the main library just to hang out, etc. Alas, that is WAY down the road. Love all the new ideas. If it's cool with you guys...let's just go ahead and make some of these happen.
Yeah let's, I'm all for that!