http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/documents/83%20mass%20transit.pdf (http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/documents/83%20mass%20transit.pdf)
I found this tonight on JCCI's website. Very interesting conclusions - many that we seem to be re-discovering today. It would be interesting to see a followup study from them with new statistics.
I don't disagree with Rick Mullaney's suggestion that we need to re-evaluate the Skyway and figure out what to do. However, I don't see why that means a moratorium. It is kind of like trying to diagnose an engine problem when it is turned off and out of the car. We have clearly learned some things over the past 20 years. We also did not follow the original plan.
Some sections that I found interesting:
QuoteA PUBLICALLY SUPPORTED MASS TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM BENEFITS NOT ONLY THOSE WHO ACTUALLY USE THIS SYSTEM BUT THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.
QuoteMASS TRANSPORTATION CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT ITSELF IN THE PRIVATE, FOR PROFIT MARKET DUE TO THE CHANGING VALUES OF SOCIETY, URBAN SPRAWL, COMPETITION FROM THE AUTOMOBILE, AND SOARING OPERATING COSTS.
QuoteOperating costs have also increased because of the movement of residential population in the Jacksonville metropolitan area and elsewhere toward low density suburbs. This movement has been encouraged and subsidized nationwide by the availability of federal home loan mortgage insurance (FHA and VA) and by massive public highway construction projects linking the suburbs with central cities.
On Page 7 there is an interesting description of the community dialogue of the time regarding the Skyway. A little too long to quote entirely (and I’m having to re-type these):
QuoteSome of the benefits claimed for this system include:
• Complementing the existing mass transit system by enabling some regular passengers to transfer before entering the central business district and by allowing park and ride patrons to leave their automobiles outside the central business district.
• Saving energy by reducing the inefficient use at slow speeds of high energy conventional buses and automobiles in the central business district.
• Improving the environment of the core city and increasing pedestrian safety by reducing the number of cars.
• Freeing some existing downtown parking space for more intensive and production uses.
And now about trolleys:
QuoteTrolley cars are a light, electrically operated rail system could meet some mass transportation needs in Jacksonville. In a proposal under consideration by city officials, the use of trolleys for mass transportation has been combined with a proposal to develop a museum of transportation with historic trollery era memorabilia and restored cars. The low cost promised by this proposal appears to be derived primarily from the use of donated track, donated right of way, second hand equipment, and volunteer labor by railroad enthusiasts.
Wow! Sounds like it was straight from Ock’s mouth!
QuoteTrolleys compete with automobiles for street space, must stop at street lights and signs, rely on overhead wires for a power source and require individual drivers. Although trolley cars have been recognized as an asset in many cities who have rebuilt or expanded their old tolley lines, in most cases a trolley is considered primarily a promotional tool and tourist attraction. In Jacksonville, the proposal for a transportation museum and short trolley link is advanced primarily as a tourist attraction.
QuoteJACKSONVILLE’S POLICIES RELATED TO MASS TRANSPORTATION ARE NOT ONLY UNCLEAR BUT ARE INCONSISTENT WITH POLICIES RELATED TO AUTOMOBILE USE.
The Mayor and City Council are supporting mass transportation by increasing financial support and by working with JTA to address the problems facing the bus system. However, no overall decision has been reached on the level of mass transportation best suited for Jacksonville now and in the future. This lack of a clear direction has led to many governmental decisions which do not lend themselves to fully developing the use of mass transit.
For example, the City maintains charges on City owned downtown parking lots which are lower than charges on commercial lots. In addition, the City is subsidizing the building of a large parking garage and planned surface lot for the Southern Bell building. These parking decisions and other decisions which increase the flow of traffic and promote the use of automobiles are disincentives to the use of mass transit. Other urban areas promote mass transit by utilizing such public policies as high occupancy vehicle lanes and higher tolls and parking fees to discourage automobiles downtown.
Did our failure to implement successful policies for our downtown cause the historic collapse from the time that this study was done?
And now some of the conclusions:
Quote
• The automobile is now, and will be in the foreseeable future, the main form of transportation in Jacksonville. It will continue to be subsidized.
• To reduce congestion in the downtown area, disincentives for automobile travel must be established along with incentives for mass transit use.
• Trolley systems are not feasible as part of the mass transportation system for Jacksonville.
• High capacity mass transit modes to suburban areas such as commuter rail and commuter ferry boats are not feasible and will not be feasible for many years, due to the dispersed, low density residential patterns and the geographical characteristics found in Jacksonville.
(interjection â€" I didn’t find very good supporting evidence for these two claims in the report)
• Jacksonville doesn’t know enough about the transit needs of its citizens or the benefits accrued to the community to make an informed determination concerning the level of service to provide.
And finally the recommendations:
Quote
• Mass transit benefits alone may not justify the proposed .7 mile portion of the “automated skyway expressâ€. Therefore, City officials should press for the completion of the entire system in order for the “automated skyway express†to have substantial mass transit benefits.
• The Jacksonville Transportation Authority should place a higher priority on, and provide more resources for, marketing its public transportation services. These efforts should include providing covered bus shelters, marking all bus stops clearly and attractively, and providing information on bus routes and arrival times at the each bus stop.
Interesting considering the changes over the past 28 years.
I believe Ock was directly involved if not the ring leader of the old trolley proposal mentioned in the quotes above.
Quote from: spuwho on March 12, 2011, 09:36:26 PM
Interesting considering the changes over the past 28 years.
Other than thousands fleeing downtown, what has changed?
In the past five years, we've demonstrated that streetcars are feasible and desired for Jacksonville. This is reflected with JTA's study a few years ago, the adopted COJ Visioning plans where residents in select neighborhoods asked for them, the inclusion of mass transit in the TPO's LRTP plan and the COJ Mobility Plan, which has created a local funding mechanism for select mass transit corridors and a modified comp plan that integrates land use with transportation planning. While these aren't changes people can easily see, they are major and absolutely needed to get us to the finish line. Now the key will be to continue to piggyback off of them.
From it what it sounds like, we are at 1st & goal. Or maybe 2nd & goal. But either way, the defense stiffens considerably at this point. What is the plan for getting the ball over the goal line?
Everything is in place. What is the next step? Fullback up the middle? Fade pass to the corner of the end zone for a spectacular one-handed grab? Trick play? Or will it be like so many times in the past and we settle for a field goal (which is what JTA is doing with the current BRT plan)? Or perhaps we get stopped at 4th & goal and walk away with nothing to show for all of the effort it took to drive the length of the field.
What happens next? The longer it takes, the more likely we are to lose the momentum. What do football teams do in this instance? They get the masses fired up! Players jumping around, bumping chests! What are we doing at this critical point? Rolling out Mobility Plans in the newspaper. Very exciting.
This is nothing against the people who have worked hard to create the Mobility Plan. It actually is very exciting to me. For the average citizen in Jacksonville, it is close to watching paint dry.
Engineers and planners are historically lousy at communicating their ideas. I believe that it is time to bring in the experts. The specialist who may not be good at running more than 2 yards, but when you absolutely need 1 yard, will get 2. The Dalton Agencies of the world.
As a former football player myself, I prefer the shove it down your throat option when its first and goal. We don't need to out think ourselves or resort to any trickery. We've taken the rock 99 years down the field now lets put it in the endzone by going into a power I formation and putting the rock right through the linebacker's chest. This method won't be pretty (ex. exciting to the general public...let's let the cheerleaders and band handle this end), but it will effectively get the six on the board, which will give you the W at the end of the game.
In other words, its sort of like continuing to do downtown studies. We can give the Dalton's a set of pom poms or a trumpet, which will get the crowd rocking but at some point, we'll have to stop talking and selling wolf tickets and just do the do. True excitement will happen when physical progress finally takes place.
Even by your own example, you admit that a different approach is needed as you approach the goal. The power I is probably not what got you to first & goal.
I'm not talking about studies. I'm talking about convincing Joe & Jane public that we need this and it is worth supporting. All of your plans and approaches are great. If we don't have public support, we will not be successful. Why? Because nobody working for any of the public entities that will push this through are going to do anything that would jeopardize their job.
I understand that the marketing aspect may not be your thing, and that you wish in a perfect world that we wouldn't need it, but to ignore the power of advertising is foolish. And it comes in many forms. It doesn't have to be TV or billboards (although I think ultimately those will be needed). It can be grassroots - but it needs to have a strategic approach. Someone like Dalton (or any of the other highly qualified firms) is not going to do another feasibility study. They would help to develop a public image strategy.
Quote from: dougskiles on March 13, 2011, 11:10:13 AM
Even by your own example, you admit that a different approach is needed as you approach the goal. The power I is probably not what got you to first & goal.
The best drives, the ones that truly demoralizes the opponent, are the ones they know are coming but can't stop. So, you run that power formation right down the field and suck of all of the clock in the process. You then punch it in the endzone and do your victory dance.
QuoteI'm not talking about studies. I'm talking about convincing Joe & Jane public that we need this and it is worth supporting. All of your plans and approaches are great. If we don't have public support, we will not be successful. Why? Because nobody working for any of the public entities that will push this through are going to do anything that would jeopardize their job.
My point is that we already have public support in the areas of town that can actually support and rely on transit now. We're not starting from ground zero with 99% opposition. Let's take advantage of that by moving forward incrementally.
QuoteI understand that the marketing aspect may not be your thing, and that you wish in a perfect world that we wouldn't need it, but to ignore the power of advertising is foolish. And it comes in many forms. It doesn't have to be TV or billboards (although I think ultimately those will be needed). It can be grassroots - but it needs to have a strategic approach. Someone like Dalton (or any of the other highly qualified firms) is not going to do another feasibility study. They would help to develop a public image strategy.
With this, I'm a roll up the sleeves type of guy who is better used in the trenches. We've done enough studying, we already know what improvements are needed, what they will cost and we already have core public support and momentum. On the field, this equates to the green light to punch it in. However, that's not to say a cheerleader on the sidelines like Dalton, would not help with the overall picture, extra ticket sales and crowd excitement. Especially if they can put a little Janet Jackson mishap into the show. ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2011, 11:27:28 AM
On the field, this equates to the green light to punch it in.
So what is holding us back? Something clearly is. Perhaps you and others know and I am still in the dark.
Something tells me that if JTA made an announcement tomorrow morning that they are going out for bid on a Skyway extension or a streetcar line or the S-line commuter rail, that the public backlash would have them wimpering all the way back to Myrtle Avenue licking their wounds.
In theory, we have the green light. In reality, I don't think we do.
Quote from: dougskiles on March 13, 2011, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2011, 11:27:28 AM
On the field, this equates to the green light to punch it in.
So what is holding us back? Something clearly is. Perhaps you and others know and I am still in the dark.
You may be expecting too much too soon. Right now we're in the middle of an economic recession, the existing system is a mess, we have a mayoral election coming up and an unstable environment in Tallahassee.
QuoteSomething tells me that if JTA made an announcement tomorrow morning that they are going out for bid on a Skyway extension or a streetcar line or the S-line commuter rail, that the public backlash would have them wimpering all the way back to Myrtle Avenue licking their wounds.
All those projects are a few years out. If they did make such an announcement now, and asked for an increase in taxes, I might vote against it as well and I'm as transit friendly as it gets. However, if it was shown that the money for such a project came from the private sector, I and many others would not care. Nevertheless, this is all moot because any true extension is probably still five years away.
QuoteIn theory, we have the green light. In reality, I don't think we do.
JTA has the green light right now to better utilize the existing system they have with the money they already recieve. This should be top priority one. What happens on this end will dictate what goes down in 2017.
Btw, in the form of a mobility plan project, there would be no need to ask the general public for anything. Projects are privately funded by zone to deal with congestion, vision and economic issues related to that particular zone. Thus, what a Mandarin or Argyle resident thinks about Springfield's S-Line won't amount to a hill of beans. The same would go for a Springfield resident's opinion on a project impacting Mandarin. This a creative solution to deal with some of the public perception issues expressed above by Doug.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2011, 11:24:57 PM
I believe Ock was directly involved if not the ring leader of the old trolley proposal mentioned in the quotes above.
As the instigator and ring master of what quickly became the JTA "MAKE EVERYTHING SUPPORT OUR IDEA," group and the TROLLEY (STREETCAR) BUILD ON OUR HISTORY AND WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE," group, I'm your huckleberry. I was joined by Councilmen, Eric Smith, Jim Wells and Andy Johnson and the late great George Harmon, then editor of the Jacksonville Journal (which was the Times-Union's evening paper). Jake Godbold had complete faith in the Skyway planners and refused to see any of us on the subject of "Trolley..." But made sure he invited us to every social function in town. If Steve Arrington was present, he generally walked around with a big "gotcha smile," always the gentleman. What we didn't know at the time was that the JTA crew were packing the misericordia for the streetcar. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa129/thefirstwolfman/newmantowolf-1.gif)
I caught a photo of one of the JTA planners at one of Jake's party's.
Credit should be given here to one Jim Catlett(?) and his staff at the then Downtown Development Authority who actually had a jacketed report created and pushed the project along with me as the techie and himself as the official go between... In fact his agency pushed so hard they may have shoved themselves right into oblivion. That Jacketed report, which I no longer have...and mysteriously is missing at the Library and or City Hall had a subliminal message for the City. It was done right after we learned of the total destruction of what was perhaps the last of our large "Turtle-Back" streetcars... yeah, the city with chain saws! So Jim found a copy of a photo of that exact car and had it rendered into a sort of ghostly negative which rode on a blue cover. (http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/483140234_jB5x3-M.jpg)
Stone and Webster Turtleback Streetcar in Dallas, a twin to the one our geniuses cut up... A little bird told me secretly that someone up the line thought all the talk about streetcars would damage the Skyway's chance at free Federal Money...so it HAD TO GO. But again a ray of light, Dallas has 3 or 4 restorable, only one operating, and told me they would be more then willing to talk horse trading, IE: we restore two, keep one.
I'll skip ahead in a little while with the glaring errors in the report that were "corrected" before going to the full board and magically uncorrected before their eyes ever saw it. Sometime after that it was STRONGLY suggested that I leave Jacksonville if I "EVER WANTED TO WORK AGAIN."(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/50/113930937_8a4ff8c405.jpg)
The genius of JTA
So the show goes on... OCKLAWAHA
The report claims that the removal of parking from the city center would be one of the main benefits of the skyway. But as recently as this year, the civic council been pushing for new parking structures downtown, e.g. on the site of the Herkimer Block. It appears that the skyway was doomed by the same thinking that is still popular among some of our city's leaders.
The mayor's office has also been pushing for additional parking for the Landing instead of better utilizing existing spaces in the core. It's also pretty pathetic that the skyway has been around for 20 years and we still haven't coordinated downtown development and land use with it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
The mayor's office has also been pushing for additional parking for the Landing instead of better utilizing existing spaces in the core. It's also pretty pathetic that the skyway has been around for 20 years and we still haven't coordinated downtown development and land use with it.
+1
It is another example of suburban solutions applied to an urban core. The question is how to reverse it? How do we change the public misconception that the only way to save Downtown is to provide more parking spaces? I would contend the exact opposite - the only way to save Downtown is to never spend another dollar on automobile parking. All of our money should go toward increasing density - office space or residential units per acre - not parking spaces per acre.
Lakelander, do you have any statistical data comparing density per parking space of urban core areas around the country?
Parking is not the only suburban solution that has been inappropriately applied in our urban core. Nearly all of our downtown streets are designed for suburban traffic speeds. A chronic disdain for preservation is yet another symptom of undue suburbanism.
QuoteMany people think mass transportation should be classified as a public sector activity like police and fire protection. However, unlike these activities, public transit service must compete with other modes of travel, primarily the automobile. The question remains as to whether transit supplies a sufficiently important service
to the general public to warrant subsidizing fares.
This statement was completely bass-ackward, it exhibits a very basic lack of understanding of the role of mass transit. Good mass transit doesn't "compete" with ANY other mode, rather it compliments them as violins compliment a symphony. Transit is a matter of personal choice (where ever it is available) and promotes a freedom not found in modes requiring a passenger/operator relationship, rather mass transit offers a passenger/passenger relationship to the city.
Likewise transit will NEVER RELIEVE CONGESTION, and to think of it as a congestion solution is simply disingenuous. Good transit will offer an alternative choice to millions of riders that subliminally says, if the gas pump shuts off or skyrockets to the moon, we've got your back, your family won't starve, you will still be mobile. If you become hurt, disabled, have one too many, need time to cram for an exam, catch up on office work, make a few calls, surf the net, or any one of a thousand other tasks that require time uninterrupted by attention to the highway, steering and what ever the heck the guy in front of you is about to do. PEACE!QuoteThe main justifications offered by proponent s of mass transit for transit subsidies are that transit:
. Benefits the socio-economically disadvantaged population by providing essential mobility at an affordable price. This mobility may keep persons off public assistance by allowing access to jobs.
. Provides mobility for those who are unable to driven handicapped, elderly, or underage persons.
. Benefits residents of an area served by transit by providing mobility in emergencies when automobiles or friends are not available.
. Benefits transit workers, suppliers, employers by direct support .
. Helps promote the development, or stem the decline, of high density urban areas, particularly central cities.
. Stimulates commercial activity for businesses directly adjacent to the routes.
. Is often considered one of the essential services expected to be provided by a city when comparisons are made for a major plant location. The availability of transit may make real estate more desirable for potential purchases.
Amazing that when I read these points, nowhere did it say to provide clean efficient mobility for all citizens... which would define a TRANSIT SERVICE. Instead they described a welfare system on wheels that, oh by the way, can help us get new factories, and offices, and help retail and business establishments. In other words transit was seen as a juicy worm on the fishing line for business, but don't expect any respectable citizen to touch the disgusting worm. QuoteThe decentralization of the central city population contributed to the decline of mass trans it systems. The efficiency and effectiveness of transit decline as land use densities decrease, and as population and jobs move from the central cities. Automobiles proliferated as auto costs in relation to personal income decreased and the wealth of the population increased. Transit use was sharply reduced following the 1940's, causing the industry to suffer declining profits. Postwar inflation cut into the transit industry forcing the operators to discontinue capital improvements and delay repairs. This reduced the attractiveness of mass trans it and caused a further reduction in the number of passengers.
In some municipalities, local government efforts to keep fa res low and routes open inadvertently contributed to the problems of the private companies by refusing to allow transit operators to cut back service on less profitable routes or to raise farebox rates.
Why didn't they discover the truth? Why was this report suffering from "asphalt poisoning?"
Truth is that wide decentralization of the core city was due to carefree and endless expansion of highways, and a foolish notion that our supply of petroleum was endless. Financed on the backs of tax payers and special levies against railroad transportation and railroad real properties, including street railways. "Utility companies, including railroads, pay more than 3%," says a 2011 Iowa tax information site (http://www.iowa.gov/tax/educate/78573.html).
While 2011 in the Sunshine State doesn't look all that different from 1920. Tax imposed is based on the ratio of Florida mileage to total mileage traveled by the carrier's vessels, vehicles or rail cars that were used in interstate or foreign commerce
Rail cars purchased by licensed common carriers and placed in revenue service inside Florida, these items are subject proration.
Repairs, parts, and other items used on vehicles, and rail cars, that are used to transport persons or property for hire in interstate or purchased by a licensed common carrier outside the state of Florida, but installed in Florida, are subject to proration.
Diesel fuel used in locomotives operated by licensed railroad carriers, to transport persons or property for hire in interstate or foreign commerce, is subject to the partial exemption
Paving assessments in municipal area's where railroads operate in street right-of-way.
Municipal taxes
School District Assessments
Real estate property tax
Early yearsQuoteWHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY AND OUR MASS TRANSIT?
In 1922, the head of General Motors (GM), Alfred P. Sloan established a special unit within the corporation which was charged with the task of replacing America's electric railways with cars, trucks and buses.
The Omnibus Corporation was formed in 1926 by John D. Hertz with "plans embracing the extension of motor coach operation to urban and rural communities in every part of the United States". This company owned the Chicago Motor Coach Company which Hertz had founded to operate buses in Chicago and the Fifth Avenue Coach Company in New York. The same year, the Fifth Avenue Coach Company acquired a majority of the stock in the struggling New York Railways Corporation. Hertz was made a board member of GM the next year.
In 1932, GM formed a new subsidiaryâ€"United Cities Motor Transport and looked around to gobble up transit companies to replace its equipment with GM buses. JACKSONVILLE TRACTION was one of only a few systems for sale so GM did indeed acquire them and substitute buses.
The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 caused great difficulties for the streetcar operators given that it made it illegal for a single business to both provide public transport and supply electricity to other parties. Who was behind it?
When the New York Railways Corporation converted streetcars to buses in 1935 and 1936, the new bus services were operated by the New York City Omnibus Corporation which shared management with The Omnibus Corporation.
In 1936, National City Lines, an existing bus operation which had been founded in 1920 was re-organized into a holding company. In 1938, JACKSONVILLE TRACTION ran it's last streetcar as part of Motor Transit. Pacific City Lines was formed to purchase streetcar systems in the western United States.
National City Lines raised funds to purchase transportation systems in cities "where street cars were no longer practicable" and to replace them with bus transit systems. Investors consisted of Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, General Motors, Mack Trucks, and the Federal Engineering Corporation. American City Lines was organized to acquire local transportation systems in the larger metropolitan areas in various parts of the country in 1943 and merged with National City Lines in 1946.
National City Lines acquired the Los Angeles Railway in 1945 and converted many lines to buses. By 1946, the company acquired 64% of the stock in the Key System streetcars in Oakland, California. Many of these conversions to buses resulted in public outcry.
That same year, E. Jay Quinby published an expose on the owners of National City Lines (GM, Firestone and Phillips Petroleum) which was addressed to "The Mayors; The City Manager; The City Transit Engineer; The members of The Committee on Mass-Transportation and The Tax-Payers and The Riding Citizens of Your Community." It began, "This is an urgent warning to each and every one of you that there is a careful, deliberately planned campaign to swindle you out of your most important and valuable public utilitiesâ€"your Electric Railway System".
By 1947, the National City Lines owned or controlled 46 systems in 45 cities in 16 states.
On April 9, 1947, nine corporations and seven individuals (constituting officers and directors of certain of the corporate defendants) were indicted in the Federal District Court of Southern California on counts of 'conspiring to acquire control of a number of transit companies, forming a transportation monopoly" and "Conspiring to monopolize sales of buses and supplies to companies owned by National City Lines".
The initial court case was in the Federal District Court of Southern California. In 1948, the venue was changed to the Federal District Court in Northern Illinois following an appeal to the United States Supreme Court (in United States v. National City Lines Inc.) who felt that there was evidence of conspiracy to monopolize the supply of buses and supplies.
The San Diego Electric Railway was sold to Western Transit Company. In 1948 the Baltimore Streetcar system was purchased by National City Lines and started converting the system to buses.
In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, General Motors and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by National City Lines and other companies; they were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951.
So JCCI was wrong, this was never a deal about the poor, disabled, disadvantaged, nor was it about competition with the automobile or bus. For the street railway companies this was a losing game against governments that wouldn't allow fare increases, demanded pavement and every other imaginable assessments and still requiring certain levels of service, in Jacksonville that level was generally every 8 minutes, and every 5 on busier routes. The one-two punch of all of the above combined with the use of those same tax dollars to extend, pave and widen every available roadway, not only seeded sprawl, it thinned our city densities making financial success of expanded private streetcar lines impossible. Finally the knock out blow was dealt when GM in the role of "JUDGE DOOM" and their host of villains made us and every other city "an offer we couldn't refuse." OCKLAWAHA