(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/eihd/images/30.jpg)
Beautiful center in Beaverton, (Portland) Oregon, Rail, Light Rail, Bus, Freeway, Parking, Walking, Bike Trails...
Talk about someone at JTA checking their brain at the door, the pretty plans for the Transportation Center are NOT a Transportation Center at all! Folks, don't take my word for it. Damn, Did Abbott play off of Costello? Did Stan work with Ollie? This is not a classic Transportation Center, it is a disconnected complex of bus and rail and convention and Skyway, and parking and Intercity bus buildings all scattered over several blocks. Now just imagine flying into JIA to change flights (like anyone ever does that). Delta arrives at the normal gate area, but Southwest is boarding over at the Clarion Hotel, Meanwhile the JTA bus boards down the road at the Holiday Inn and the Commuter Plane leaves from the freight terminal! THIS IS NOT A TRANSPORTATION CENTER! No matter how pretty it looks. For this plan to work we MUST move the convention center out of the depot area, and move every aspect of Bus, Intercity Bus, Rail and even curve the Skyway into the current Parking or Convention building area. Then allow someone to build a high-rise hotel, a theater, and a dozen other convention centers around downtown. At least travelers won't be walking or wandering around Lavilla trying to figure out which building is the Center of the Center without a Center!
(http://www.thayeravenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/transit_center.jpg)
Award Winning Center in Silver Spring Maryland, NOTE it's all under one roof!
Now picture this scene, "TRANSPORTATION CENTER BY JTA TAKE ONE", MARKER: JTA (as usual) doesn't listen to anyone, and goes ahead with the bus sheds and the marble palace to themselves. Greyhound and the other lines get suckered into the new station as well but of course, it's a block or so North. Meanwhile, we decide to build the convention center at the School Board Property, or Hyatt, or Stadium Area... So the Prime Osbourne is Boarded up! Ahhh, but we built those Amtrak platforms out by McCoys Creek, and those poor folks will walk through the ruins of what was once an active -convention-center-turned-vacant-eyesore, for a full city block before emerging into the light of the 3 blocks "Centerless Center". Just imagine the trash and homeless mess they'll encounter in that journey, hey and the rail passengers are usually well healed and upper income...WELCOME TO JACKSONVILLE...!
(http://www.translink.co.uk/lowgraphic/resources/images/prBangorBus&RailCentre01.jpg)
How about this one in Bangor UK? Bus? Rail? Transit? all under one very nice roof without covering 20 acres...Hey JTA? Where's the marble office suites?
How about this one, "TRANSPORTATION CENTER BY JTA TAKE TWO," MARKER: The Prime Osbourne stays and even expands. 2 large goups are meeting at the center with dozens of aides, catering and other active businesses, The Silver Star and Silver Meteor, Amtraks Prime trains, happen in at the same time, and discharge some 450 passengers. These folks enter intot he maze of halls or into the side walk out front to wander toward town, Do they even see the next 3 blocks of Centerless Center? Hopeless...
(http://www.cdtcmpo.org/revest/gateway_files/image002.gif)
Schenetady, NY, making use of an old Depot..."Gee what a novel thought JTA..." Bus, Amtrak, Commuter Rail all under one roof...I bet they could even fit in a people mover-er-uh-Skyway and a BRT bus, Guess what else? They'll get REAL Trolleys too!
If General Robert E. Lee had consolidated his army of Northern Virginia, in front of the Federals like JTA plans to consolidate their surface center, luckless General Ambrose Burnside, could have gone through the Confederates like rain through a screen door and raised the flag over Richmond!
(http://www.dot.state.fl.us/TrafficOperations/Newsletters/2006/02_2006/Graphics/JTA.gif)
Believe it or not, this is Jacksonville's, disconnected, de-centralized mess of a multi-million dollar plan! Now can you imagine when commuter rail and/or BRT comes in and the Amtrak Corridor trains start running, who in the heck is going to lug their stuff 3 or 4 blocks to...to...to...beats the hell out of me!
JTA doesn't seem to understand the concept of "CENTER", perhaps a careful walk through a shopping mall with crayon diagrams and maps would help. The other problem is the word "ORIENTED" the same folks that bring us a Centerless-Center, think that "Transit Oriented" means anything within a block or two of Transit. Which begs the question, are the strip clubs, nude bars and booze joints in Saint Nicholas (Beach and Atlantic) that happen to be across the road from a large Catholic School... Well? What are they JTA? "Catholic School Oriented Strip Clubs?"
(http://www.justpete.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/donkey.jpg)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/jackass-standing.jpg)
Transit 101 for the Transit Challenged. This is an image of a typical Ass. Please note that if one is Oriented toward the Ass, he or she could be considered the beloved friend of said animal. Though the Ass End may indeed bite you, to be oriented toward it is much desired then to turning ones backside toward it. This would NOT be Ass Oriented, and may result in being face down in fuzzy substances much like that found in the BRT planning rooms at JTA. Now on the other hand, the Arse end can be deadly. A cowboy or transit planner, may stand near the Arse, but Orient him or herself away from the Arse end of said animal, this can result in soon reaching incredible altitudes without the aid of rockets. Further, if the Arse is in season, and the said transit planner or cowboy orients himself or herself too close and toward the Arse , you may take a bath that not even the JTA spin doctors could clean up. This my friends is the basis for Transit or Rail Oriented Development or simply adjacent development. To stand in the middle of a City paddock, and look away from the Transit potential, without thought nor fear, takes a real ASS.
I hope someone at City Council reads this and kicks some sense into the political insanity. We bought a Skyway, Now we are buying at useless BRT plan, and next...Super Station...JTA, 3 strikes and your out!
Ocklawaha
Interesting tirade. I applaud JTA for seeing the need for a transportation center, but I can also see that its going to be inefficient for users attempting to transfer to different modes of transit.
Imo, the discussion about convention center should have involved both the courthouse and transportation center plans. Nevertheless, regardless of whether the convention center leaves or not, the transportation center needs to be consolidated into one or two blocks, as opposed to being spreadout over seven.
The key to making that work is to seriously coordinate plans with the convention center so that all are redesigned to complement their surroundings creating a large district that flows together.
I would actually argue for the proposed Convention Center development. There is a method to the madness shown in the image. I think one of the problems with our fair pedestrians in Jacksonville is the fact that the vast majority of them think that 4 blocks is too great a distance to walk for something. Look at real pedestrian oriented neighborhoods and you'll see that a maximum distance of walking for comfort is in the order of 8-10 blocks, not 3 or 4. 3 or 4 blocks is like walking from one side of the Landing to the other. Not exactly a trek. But I do agree that a more careful study of that area should be done to see what the true potential is and could be. Perhaps that should be a MetroJax sponsored design competition or Charrette - The New Jacksonville Convention and Transit Center. Though I might locate it a little closer to the center of the Urban Core rather than between downtown and La Villa. Just my oh so humble opinion. :-)
I understand where you're coming from, but when designing a decent transportation center, where you want transit riders to transfer between modes (thats the whole purpose of a TC), time and distance become important factors. If you fail to address those issues then it only becomes a negative for all modes of transit running into the center.
As for walkability, people have no problem walking if there's something to walk to. In downtown, they don't because the urban building fabric has been ripped apart by surface parking lots. At SJTC, Regency and the Avenues, they have no problem walking from one end to the other.
If the transportation center is designed to be efficient, that only leaves more room around the Prime Osborn (if it remains a convention center) for complementing development like the proposed Bay Street Station movie theater/hotel/bowling/restaurant complex across the street. Then you get a decent transportation element in an urban neighborhood full of destinations that encourage people to walk to get from one to the other.
I agree wholeheartedly. But at least they are thinking in the right direction. Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it isn't a valid attempt. We can all argue what should and shouldn't be TOD or TAD or whatever other acronym you want to call out. But at some point we have to start taking the baby steps. Nothing is going to happen overnight, so any small step in the right direction needs to be validated, in my opinion.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If a transportation center does not work it does not work and transit will ultimately suffer because of it. That's something that happened with the Skyway that nobody wants to see happen again. Luckily, its not build yet. This means there should be time to refine things and to work out the kinks.
that seems a bit harsh!
If I remember my Ancient Transportation Center history correctly, Greyhound was originally going to be in the old Union Terminal building, along with Amtrak. However, the Powers That Be with the Convention Center and City didn't want those people that ride intercity buses near their conventioneers.
And, unless Congress comes up with some bucks to pay for the relocation, Amtrak ain't gonna be there for awhile (read: years) anyway.
Thanks for that perspective Charles....eye opening. ;D
Quote(http://www.dot.state.fl.us/TrafficOperations/Newsletters/2006/02_2006/Graphics/JTA.gif)
Believe it or not, this is Jacksonville's, disconnected, de-centralized mess of a multi-million dollar plan! Now can you imagine when commuter rail and/or BRT comes in and the Amtrak Corridor trains start running, who in the heck is going to lug their stuff 3 or 4 blocks to...to...to...beats the hell out of me!
Ever notice the buildings in the foreground in this JTA IMAGE? All of those empty lots are filled with duplicates of what JTA calls their Rosa Parks (?) Transit Center "TOD." Built like castles, they surround and focus on a central PARKING facility. PARKING! Now that is Transit Oriented! They wall off both the public and TRANIST and do nothing to bring the neighborhood together. This is more evidence that the "Brains" have left the building, down on Myrtle Avenue. Lake, you ought to critique these images, it should be fun! Imagine when they hit Arlington, Gateway, JTB and the Avenues with these! Taking down shopping centers, high rise buildings and retail and offices in the process of FORCING us to love BRT!
Last report I have on the Amtrak issue? Look into my crystal and I see, they get their money. If not for all of the right reasons, then for the wrong ones. The Democrats are going to FORCE FEED this to the administration and already have a veto proof majority in the Senate on Amtrak. Watch for this train to come into the station soon. The Republicans, will have to relent and abandon their highway buddies or run the risk of looking (and being) VERY dead on the oil crisis. Locally, this JTA plan will ensure that the bus and the rail people stay as far away from each other as possible.
But JTA says "(Ocklawaha!) you have an agenda!"
OOPS! I'm sorry, does it show?
Gee JTA does that mean we are not friends anymore? Why if y'all were not my friend, I just don't think I could bear it...Ocklawaha
Ock.... You are my friend :) You rock!!!
Geez, talk about bringing a thread up from the dead.
?
It may be a thread from the dead, but it still appeals to the head! :D
JTA isn't listening to Ock or anyone else who might have common sense or actually use this center. Everything said here is still fair game and, unfortunately, so is JTA's poorly executed abomination of an intermodal center that really looks to me like a cover for JTA to build a new executive palace for itself and its fellow road building co-conspirators. Oh, the irony of using mass transit as the excuse to accomplish their agenda :o
Funny, JTA can't find money for bus shelters but can spend hundreds of thousands to build covered walkways serving its own employees.
P.S. Still waiting for them to post updated financial statements on their web site. Coming up on two years overdue.
Re-reading the "Crystal Ball" from 2007 was interesting, indeed AMTRAK DID GET IT'S LONG-LONG OVERDUE MAJOR FUNDING, and indeed the only "anti's" in the bill were a handful of Republicans. Quote"Last report I have on the Amtrak issue? Look into my crystal and I see, they (AMTRAK) get their money. If not for all of the right reasons, then for the wrong ones. The Democrats are going to FORCE FEED this to the administration (IE: G.W. Bush and Company) and already have a veto proof majority in the Senate on Amtrak. Watch for this train to come into the station soon. The Republicans, will have to relent and abandon their highway buddies or run the risk of looking (and being) VERY dead on the oil crisis. Locally, this JTA plan will ensure that the bus and the rail people stay as far away from each other as possible."
Did the Republican's that stood in the "Station House Door" get run over as I predicted? Hey, this was written a year before President Obama was elected!
Just one more case of an "I told you so..."
PLEASE JTA, DON'T LET ME BE RIGHT AGAIN! ...or you could just hire me!OCKLAWAHA
I think that would prove to be a wise move for JTA
Tim.......it makes sense, so forget it! Ock could do a better job than the clowns in charge, but would not have free reign to do so! He would have bozo's over him and that would tie his hands!
I know.. I was simply stating it would be a wise move :D Not that the clowns at JTA are wise . I know nothing about transportation and I THINK I probably could do a better job... I would at least have common sense enough to ask someone (like OCK ) who does have experience.
JTA has had 2 recent job openings for transit-related positions....wonder if anyone on this site applied?
I just hope Ock doesn't go over to the "dark side". JTA swallows people whole. Beware of the brainwashing machine. :D
All I know is SOMEBODY needs to fix this, because it should not take 80 minutes to get from Springfield to Riverside on the bus. Crispy fried Christ on a hoagie roll with lettuce and onions, it's ONLY FOUR MILES. Almost an hour and a half and two buses to go FOUR MOTHERF**CKING MILES?!?
I know for a fact I can WALK there faster. I timed myself the last time I did. It took me 52 minutes to walk from the bus stop at the corner of 6th and Main in Springfield to Five Points in Riverside, strolling at a leisurely pace through downtown and along the Riverwalk.
It's an outrage! [insert 35 minutes of indignant, largely uninformative spluttering here] ... and in conclusion, I feel that everybody at the JTA (except for the friendly, helpful bus drivers, of whom I have encountered a total of THREE over the last 20 years) should be buried alive in pickle relish and stomped on by dwarfs. That would be about as useful as whatever the hooha they're doing right now.
Thank you for reading, and have a nice day. Unless you need to take a bus somewhere, in which case nobody gives a fig for you. You might as well walk, it's probably quicker. Seriously.
How sad that Ock's awesome tirade from 2007 is the same discussion we are still having today. What has JTA been doing for the past three years? That's right...building roads and more roads. In that same amount of time other cities have built commuter rail systems from scratch, streetcar lines like crazy and embraced mass transit as a viable source of creating development.
This isn't how things have to be. My old home of Madison WI applied for Amtrak funding in 2009. After getting the money, they decided last month to put a station downtown by the capital and convention center. Last week they chose the exact location and by the end of the month they want conceptual drawings after public input on the station. By the end of this year they will select a master developer and the trains will roll in by 2013.
[Mayor Dave Cieslewicz said the city will soon seek a master developer for a two-block area across Wilson Street from the station site on what is now the dilapidated Government East parking ramp.
"This is not just about a rail station. This is about economic development and the redevelopment of this whole district," Cieslewicz said. "We're going to use this as a catalyst to completely reimagine that side of the Capitol Square."]
Our government leaders should not be allowed to operate at a such a slow pace. We pay you to MAKE IT HAPPEN! Do your job JTA!
For the love of God people....it is not the day to day grinders at JTA that dont know what they are doing. It is as Stephen said above a top down issue. Maybe if some of you would contact the JTA Board members or come to board meetings and express your feelings then you might see some change. It is worthy to note JTA has completed streetcar and commuter rail studies in the past two years with cold reception from the BOARD!!!!!. JTA will soon be spening up to a million to move commuter rail forward. Now, if all of this planning would have started 5-8 years ago, then maybe Jax would have been in a position to recieve federal dollars to build a streetcar line or commuter rail line. I just think its a little disingenious to say JTA is doing nothing. I know for a fact there are a few over there who want this stuff as much as anyone on this board.
You make a good point fsu. I was able to find a list of the board members on the jta website, but there doesn't seem to be any way to contact them. I also could not find meeting dates. Perhaps you have some info you could share. I'm guessing as all of the members are appointed, there isn't a lot of interaction with the citizens of Jacksonville or much opportunity for us to have a say. Perhaps a group of us could attend a meeting and voice our concerns.
fsujax.......the issue is not with the "day to day grinders" at JTA, but the people in the positions of power and those that have a say in the planning aspect! I could also point out the "Shelter" escapade and changing of schedules every six months or so and on and on! Those in the seats of power seem to have a penchant for more and more concrete and that is not the most cost efficient or productive answer to sprawl! I won't say JTA is not doing something, because right now it looks like they are just perpetuating their existence!
just as the issue is with the top ,down, in City management, I concur that it is not the people who actually WORK at JTA but those in managment and planning. I hope Ock does apply and does get into the planning and development , if not some of the key management positions. The man has more common sense than the lot of those people.
Tim .....I agree! Ock does know what to do and how to do it but JTA does not want someone who knows how to achieve an end result..............most of the JTA upper management are nothing but clones of the Nifty Fifty and their ilk, just more concerned about taking care of them and theirs! You know if everyone from Middle Management up were required to ride a bus to work, I wonder just much bus service would improve, not to mention how many shelters would be built?
God forbid that someone at the top at JTA be shown "HOW" its done! That would be nearly as insulting as showing Mayor Johnny how to run a city the fair and honest way.
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 05, 2010, 06:03:30 PM
You know if everyone from Middle Management up were required to ride a bus to work, I wonder just much bus service would improve, not to mention how many shelters would be built?
Good question! Maybe these fools need to be required to ride a bus to work. My Grandmother did it from the time her husband passed in 1961 ,til she retired in 1994. So if she could do it, these bozos should be able to. If Stephen can do it, I think the Upper management of JTA needs to put their asses on one of the busses and get to and from work... You're right... They might make some changes.
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 05, 2010, 05:27:35 PM
fsujax.......the issue is not with the "day to day grinders" at JTA, but the people in the positions of power and those that have a say in the planning aspect!
some of the "day-to-day grinders" are heavily involved in the plannig aspect!
btw, who are the nifty fifty?
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2010, 09:57:51 PM
some of the "day-to-day grinders" are heavily involved in the plannig aspect!
Then, fire them as well. New management, new regime. I suspect JTA is loaded with a bunch of a** kissers. That's how they keep their jobs there. Don't make waves. Most of the good ones have likely moved on to an environment that is more professional.Quotebtw, who are the nifty fifty?
There are likely several versions of the Nifty Fifty, depending on who you ask. But one version that has gone public and likely overlaps with many lists, is below. No doubt a few more lurk in the shadows. I think it's clear many have great intentions for our community but that some have "conflicts of interests" between their pocketbooks and certain community projects. This muddies the water a bit. Not sure how to avoid this entirely given the power vested in their positions. Public scrutiny is probably the best quality control point. However, I am not sure how public this group will be. Time will tell.
I sure don't see this group advocating for mass transit and less urban sprawl. I think the most common bond they have is another urgent need in our community, education. If they lick that they will surely be a "nifty fifty"! ;)QuoteGroup disbands, launches Jacksonville Civic Council
Group seeks to take a more active role in shaping city's long-term agenda.
Posted: February 16, 2010 - 7:28pm
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-02-16/story/group_disbands_launches_jacksonville_civic_council
By Abel Harding
Jacksonville's Non-Group, whose membership roster was often the subject of intrigue, wielded power in relative obscurity for nearly two decades.
Several members said they felt there was a leadership vacuum in the city, which needed to be addressed by a more public group.
After voting to disband the Non-Group, several members joined with other leaders in launching the Jacksonville Civic Council.
Initially composed of about 50 civic leaders, the council will raise $400,000 to hire an executive director, research issues and advocate for change, according to its chairman, Peter Rummell.
“There has been concern for some time that there hasn’t been a strategic public-private partnership in Jacksonville,†Rummell said. “This group fills that void.â€
The group will use the collective power of its membership to bring focus to long-term issues facing the city by working with elected officials and other key stakeholders.
The group has commissioned a poll to determine the issues most important to Jacksonville’s residents. The results will be announced in a news conference Thursday.
“We are purposefully being public about this,†Rummell said. “We don’t want there to be any mystery, and we’re putting a little pressure on ourselves to be accountable.â€
Matt Corrigan, political science chairman at the University of North Florida, said the group bears some resemblance to the group that led the city consolidation effort in the 1960s.
“It says we’ve come to a turning point in the city,†Corrigan said. “It’s important that these leaders speak up. We’re at a critical juncture.â€
The Jacksonville Civic Council’s forerunner was an informal network of some of the city’s most powerful corporate leaders. Formed in 1993, the Non-Group focused primarily on educational issues, including supporting for the launch of the Alliance for World Class Education, now known as the Jacksonville Public Education Fund.
“There’s a lot of power in good ideas,†said Steve Halverson, CEO of the Haskell Co. and a former Non-Group chairman. “This group has the luxury of being independent and speaking truth to power.â€
Rummell and Halverson said the idea for the new organization evolved over the last two years as the Non-Group debated whether to embrace a more activist role.
A chamber trip to Kansas City, Mo., inspired Jacksonville lawyer Lynn Pappas, then chairwoman of the Non-Group, to pattern the council after the Civic Council of Greater Kansas City. At the Non-Group’s December meeting, members voted to disband the organization and create the council.
Rummell, Pappas, Halverson and John Delaney, former Jacksonville mayor and now president of the University of North Florida, led the effort and selected the new group’s members.
Membership dues range from $1,000 to $15,000 per member and include mandatory attendance requirements. Membership is by invitation only and all members were required to make a three-year commitment.
“The replacement of the Non-Group with JCC is reflective of the times,†Halverson said. “There is a hunger in this city for more engaged civic leadership.â€
Leaders say the group will be non-partisan, although it is understood that individuals may be involved in various political campaigns.
Corrigan said the group will face questions of how representative it is of the city and will have to continue to reach out to have an impact. Its composition is more diverse than its predecessor with the initial roster listing five women and at least six African-Americans.
“We wanted to be inclusive and we wanted the right people at the table,†Rummell said. “We’ve tried to represent the community while also including business leadership who can get things done.â€
Both Rummell and Halverson expect the group to evolve over time.
The group will register as a 501(c)(6) group, which will allow it to publicly advocate and lobby for issues it perceives as important to the city’s future.
Corrigan says that’s where the group could really have an impact.
“Do you want to be the city councilman who goes against them?†Corrigan said.
In addition to the four former Non-Group members who launched the council, Civic Council members who were previously known to be members of the Non-Group at one time are Ed Burr, Carl Cannon, Jack Diamond, Ceree Harden, Herb Peyton, Michael Ward and Wayne Weaver.
Susie Wiles, former aide to Mayor John Peyton and current partner at IF Marketing & Advertising, who assisted with the new group’s formation, will serve as the group’s interim executive director while a nationwide search is conducted for a permanent one.
The first meeting of the new group will be tonight at the River Club.
Jacksonville Civic Council members
Chester Aikens, Chester Aikens DDS
Ron Autrey, President, Miller Electric
Doug Baer, Brooks Health System
John Baker, Director, Patriot Transportation Holding
Edward E. Burr, President & CEO, GreenPointe Holdings, LLC
Walt Bussells, Exec. V.P. & CFO, GreenPointe Holdings, LLC
Carl Cannon
Jeff Carbiener, President & CEO, LPS
Alvin Carpenter (Pete)
Gary Chartrand, Chairman, Acosta Sales & Marketing
Robert M. Clements, Chairman & CEO, EverBank
John A. Delaney, President, University of North Florida
Jack Diamond, President, Rink Design Partnership, Inc.
James A. Dickenson, Managing Director & CEO, Jacksonville Electric Authority
Fred Franklin, Rogers Towers, P.A.
Nathaniel Glover, University of North Florida
Tim Goldfarb, Shands Health Care
Michael J. Grebe, CEO, Interline Brands
A. Hugh Greene, FACHE, President & CEO, Baptist Health
Steve T. Halverson, President & CEO, The Haskell Company
Preston Haskell, Chairman, The Haskell Company
M.C. “Ceree†Harden III, CEO & Chairman of the Board, Harden
Leerie T. Jenkins, Jr., Chairman & CEO, Reynolds, Smith & Hills
Howard Korman, General Manager, St. Johns Greyhound Park
Marty Lanahan, Regions Bank
Rad Lovett, Lovett Miller
Robert I. Lufrano, MD, Chairman of the Board & CEO, Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Florida, Inc.
Kelly Madden, Wells Fargo
W.A. McGriff, III (Mac)
Rusty Newton, President, Timucuan Asset Management
Duane Ottenstroer, President PRG Developments, Inc.
M. Lynn Pappas, Esq., Pappas Metcalf Jenks & Miller, P.A.
Ava L. Parker, Esq., Lawrence & Parker, P.A. / Linking Solutions, Inc.
Thomas F. Petway, III
Herbert H. Peyton, President, Gate Petroleum Company
Robert Rhodes, Foley & Lardner LLP
Bryant Rollins, CEO, StetsonRollins Consulting, Inc.
John D. Rood, Chairman, Vestcor Companies
Peter S. Rummell
William Rupp, CEO, Mayo Clinic
Martin E. “Hap†Stein, Jr., Chairman & CEO, Regency Centers
David H. Stovall, Jr., President & CEO, SteinMart
Lee M. Thomas, President & CEO, Rayonier
Ron Townsend, Townsend Enterprises LLC
Steven R. Wallace, Florida State College of Jacksonville
Michael Ward, Chairman, President & CEO, CSX Transportation
Cleve Warren, Essential Capital Finance Inc.
Nina Waters, The Community Foundation, Inc.
Wayne Weaver, Jacksonville Jaguars
Quote from: stjr on July 05, 2010, 10:28:46 PM
I sure don't see this group advocating for mass transit and less urban sprawl. I think the most common bond they have is another urgent need in our community, education. If they lick that they will surely be a "nifty fifty"! ;)[/b]
well several of them are on the JTA Board...so maybe you should start there.
Quote from: stjr on July 05, 2010, 10:28:46 PM
Then, fire them as well. New management, new regime. I suspect JTA is loaded with a bunch of a** kissers. That's how they keep their jobs their. Don't make waves. Most of the good ones have likely moved on to an environment that is more professional.
this is an unfortunate point of view...it is possible that JTA would not have done studies on commuter rail and streetcars without having competent folks who raise their voice when it is appropriate.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2010, 11:09:21 PM
this is an unfortunate point of view...it is possible that JTA would not have done studies on commuter rail and streetcars without having competent folks who raise their voice when it is appropriate.
Tufsu, I was responding to your own implication that "day grinders", not just senior JTA management, were responsible for the poor outcomes of JTA. Like any large organization, I am sure there are a few "diamonds in the rough". But, if the general view of JTA is to change, a major house cleaning appears in order. Until the community sees better management demonstrated by better outcomes, all of JTA will be tainted by a broad brush of dissatisfaction.
(http://www.t-netsurf.com/ichiban/guidewaybus/guideway003.jpg)
China, but hey, it could have been the Arlington Expressway!QuoteI hope someone at City Council reads this and kicks some sense into the political insanity. We bought a Skyway, Now we are buying at useless BRT plan, and next...Super Station...JTA, 3 strikes and your out!
Actually folks, JTA has done a lot to correct the subjects of this rant. As FSUJAX and TUFSU have pointed out, there are some major talents at work on some aspects of our transit deficit. When this was written 3 years ago, we were facing a scheme (some would call it a plan) that would have built miles of elevated busways over the Arlington Expressway, the CSX to Murray Hill as well as "Olympic Size" stations that would have taken out huge chunks of taxable retail and office space. (http://ecolocalizer.com/files/2008/05/brt-headlines.gif)
Recent headlines in India, Chile, .... Jacksonville?
The BUS RAPID TRANSIT scheme was a bill of goods that was being beaten to inclusion in "rapid" transit plans across the nation. Was this JTA? Not! It WAS Florida's own CUTR (The official Transit misinformation center at USF in Tampa), it was a big oil president, it was a big oil presidents kid brother as governor. It was a massively financed campaign by the same old highway lobby, interests and suppliers that bought out the streetcar companies and destroyed rail as an alternative. It wasn't just us, this was an American and then a suddenly worldwide phenomenon, the claims for which quickly soared out of all control or common sense. (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1439/800184617_4bed876994.jpg)
If it worked so well in Bogota and Curitiba then WHY are they building rail? ...and I would know this why?
"BRT is just like rail, only cheaper" was one of the slogans used and reused from Washington DC restrooms to office cubicles at the various bus manufacturers. "BRT can be shown to have a higher passenger per hour capacity then rail" was a line that challenged anyone capable of thought. "BRT will open up the corridors, and when the passenger count reaches the desired level you just shove rails under it and you have LRT" a claim that no one has explained to this day. "BRT as fast as rail." "BRT as comfortable as LRT." "BRT as quiet as rail." "BRT as economical as rail." "BRT... HEY! I'm sorry folks, I am a transportation guy, but when this conversation dissolves into like rail, like rail, like rail, like rail, I start wondering then WHY THE HELL DON'T WE JUST DO RAIL? (http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/images/maps/congestion-map.gif)
It's about the thick lines and thin lines
In reality, BRT is a cafe of bus concepts, equipment, gadgets, shelters, etc... It isn't a "THING" rather it is a rather vague "THOUGHT." My greatest fear in taking down both the Skyway (which I'm responsible for some 30 years ago), and now taking down BRT, is that NEITHER SYSTEM IS BAD! They were/are only "bad" when applied to a service that the builders NEVER intended them to serve. In mass transit you basically deal with a system route map. As a professional you no longer see lines, rather you see THICK LINES and very thin lines. The traffic volume and patterns illustrated in this manner are graphic, obviously the thick lines representing the heaviest traveled routes will need a higher capacity mode of transportation. You wouldn't send a 12 seat van to handle the traffic on Roosevelt, Philips, Kings, Main, etc... This single fact is what prompted me to attack the BRT-JAX scheme, you just don't bring a knife to a gun fight, or a bus to carry a train load. (http://thecityfix.com/files/2010/04/max_brt.jpg)
Buy it and apply it right, BRT could be a blessing
If we have the volume on these key routes, then they need to be on rail right here, right now. But folks don't toss the BRT baby out with the bath water. The plan on the Northbank for Broad and Jefferson is superb, likewise with a little tweeking the route on to Gateway. But running BRT alongside rail on Roosevelt or Philips is not a wise use of our funds. There is no reason why for the same bucks, we can't send those buses into deeper reaching more exotic places... TOWN CENTER? GATE? JTB? DEERWOOD? SOUTHPOINTE? PONTE VEDRA? MAYO? Just to name a few. There is also NO REASON for those "super buses" to have to make that redundant trek into downtown from the BRT to the burbs, build BRT from the RAIL out. JTB/BOWDEN station on the commuter rail is as far as those BRT buses need go and by turning them we get much more use on the routes perhaps doubling our current headways without any new coaches... JUST ADD RAIL and the BRT revised around it makes all the sense in the world. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/blank555-1.jpg)(http://www.mobilewhack.com/wp-content/pics/2009/10/walt_disney2.jpg)
We already have the station to handle all the trains Amtrak, JTA or FDOT can throw at us, let's not repeat the mistake of telling another "Disney" we won't play.
Jacksonville Terminal? Okay, 3 years and counting and nothing has changed on those drawings. Worse still is Amtrak eminent return to downtown for the FEC RY services which may "force" JTA and FDOT to act in haste without due revisions of the current messy plans. This scenario would heap disaster on catastrophe and like many Jaxson's before us, we'd might just be telling another giant economic engine that "Jacksonville doesn't do business with carnival people..." (http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/455355060_QyaKc-M.jpg)
FROM THIS(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TDKwcRVg8oI/AAAAAAAACx4/3dV1CE34iNk/s800/BOB%20JAX%20TERML%20DREAM.jpg)
TO THIS
What would I immediately change at the Prime Osbourne site if all power rested in my hands at JTA?
1. I would lose the name "Prime Osbourne" and put a lifesize statue of the man in the courtyard of the 1890's era station on Bay Street, alongside Flagler, Plant, Williams, Warfield, Davis, Smith, etc...
It's THE JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL, and like Grand Central or Los Angeles Union Passenger Depot, that's all anyone needs to know, great stations make their own names!
2. Scrap ANY plan to alter the appearance of the 1919 station by adding an Amtrak Abomination on the South end like that has all of the appeal of an infected wart.
3. Scrap ANY plan to remove even one more inch of the old 250,000 cu yds of fill where the station tracks were/are to be located.
4. Deep 6 the plan to build an overhead pedestrian concourse from the station out to the trains, by repairing, rebuilding and reopening the tunnels.
5. Rebuild the LEE STREET viaduct to clear every track from a point due east of the south wall of the 1919 station, southward to McCoys Creek with a minimum of 23.6 feet.
6. As soon as it is available, take down the "Prime Osbourne's" exhibit halls keeping only the east-west concourse, converting that former space into the Intercity Bus Terminal.
7. Build the JTA garage, offices and City Bus/BRT/Streetcar station where the west parking lot exists today, I would not change a single aspect of the bus, office, garage or intercity bus plan, simply rearrange the location.
Lastly in the RANT GOES ON, PLEASE let us finish the Skyway so it goes somewhere, as friend Stephendare would say, because as it is it goes from nowhere to nowhere... but at least it passes through nowhere!
Yadda yadda yadda... If Y'all REALLY want me to storm the ramparts howabout letting somebody at the City or JTA know it? (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
Ock - I think the plan looks good. However, it asumes the convention center is no longer at this site - and neither the city council nor the mayor's office has given any real indication this will happen or when. Until that happens how do you expect JTA to make this plan happen? Nobody in city government is willing to take on the convention center issue. I don't think JTA would be against a plan utlizing the convention center site if it was available to use. Right now - its not. Its easy to say JTA should do this/that - but the reality is its just a dream unless that property is turned over. But right now we have a courthouse and the city hall annex building where many people think a new convention center should be.
For those complaining that JTA doesn't need a new fancy building - are you the same people who were complaining how plain the building design was when it was first revealed?
For those of you who were here back then - then you know that the current structure was built back in the early 1970s and except for the new lobby and board room - is a terrible place.
actually the Mayor has made it clear several times in the past year that the convention center should be moved to the existing courthouse area near the Hyatt....but the Mayor has correctly noted that making a sales pitch for $ right now is virtually impossible.
The best idea would be to develop an interim and full buildout plan....the interim would allow convention business to still occur on-site and would likely leave Greyhound and the Rosa Parks station where they are....long-term, those services can be moved to the JRTC as well.
QuoteOck - I think the plan looks good. However, it asumes the convention center is no longer at this site - and neither the city council nor the mayor's office has given any real indication this will happen or when. Until that happens how do you expect JTA to make this plan happen?
The convention situation needs to be resolved one way or the other before the long term transit center plan goes into place. It would be a good idea to develop a "temporary" or short term plan that incorporates the convention center as well as a long term one that does not. From this angle, I'd expect a state agency like JTA to force the city to make a decision one way or the other before investing hundreds of millions in the construction of something that is designed to by highly inefficient for the end user.
QuoteNobody in city government is willing to take on the convention center issue. I don't think JTA would be against a plan utlizing the convention center site if it was available to use. Right now - its not. Its easy to say JTA should do this/that - but the reality is its just a dream unless that property is turned over. But right now we have a courthouse and the city hall annex building where many people think a new convention center should be.
The mayor has stated that the convention center should be moved next to the Hyatt. If this is the goal, then we know that the convention center will eventually leave the terminal. With that in mind, long term plans should address this, regardless of if a move of the convention center is funded or not.
QuoteFor those complaining that JTA doesn't need a new fancy building - are you the same people who were complaining how plain the building design was when it was first revealed?
That's not my argument, so I can't speak for the others.
QuoteFor those of you who were here back then - then you know that the current structure was built back in the early 1970s and except for the new lobby and board room - is a terrible place.
The current site also needs to be reconfigured to allow for commuter rail to access the S-Line.
(edit: I noticed tufsu1 stated some of the same exact things)
Quote from: exnewsman on July 06, 2010, 10:17:10 AM
For those of you who were here back then - then you know that the current structure was built back in the early 1970s and except for the new lobby and board room - is a terrible place.
Poetic justice, I say. JTA built their own offices just like they do their other projects. Third rate. Let them stew in it. I have no problem with them painting and re-carpeting. Replace the A/C as needed and the roof if it leaks. After that, if the structure is not quality, who's fault is that? The structural components should be good for at least 50 years. Why should the taxpayers pay again for their poor work? Use the money instead on bus shelters.
Most importantly, why should the tail wag the dog? This is supposed to me an intermodal center first and foremost. It shouldn't be built around the convenience of JTA offices.
stjr +1 and then some! tufsu..........the "Nifty Fifty" I refer to the people who actually control our government! This is per a Folio article about a month and a half ago and it is too true when you look objectively at who is doing what and to whom! As to JTA and their shenanigans,chop everyone at the top and lets start over..............this is the down side of supposed professionals doing what they were hired to do. Judging by the bus system, the shelter system and all of the waste that takes place, we need to clean house badly!
The solution is a Temporary Rail Terminal, which allows us to fully redevelop the rail side platforms, tunnels, concourses etc... Then placement of the new bus facility right in place WEST of the convention center. Lake and I are planning an article on "HOW TO" ... Coming soon!
OCKLAWAHA
Looking forward to what comes out of the collaboration Ock! Either way, Prime needs to return to what it was in the beginning and screw JTA's concept with gold commodes! We have a rail center now, even though it is a half butted Convention Center (Lord what a mess!) It needs to move or lets really save some money and cancel it all together as a convention center, which we probably can live without! Return it to a Rail Center and tie everything into it..........Light Rail, BRT and the whole nine yards! I mean how many events are hosted there that actually earn a dollar or is everyone of the events a losing proposition as I think they are! Put a Convention Center on hold till we can build one correctly from scratch designed properly with parking or else parking elsewhere and BRT to it! Different ways to go at it for sure, just the most cost effective path for sure!
Same here, Ock...and I have to say your comment about the current proposed addition having the appeal of an infected wart, was priceless !!! :D and you are so right.
I cannot wait to read more!