I was having a discussion with some friends, and was looking for some ideas of things that would improve Murray Hill. I would love the feedback of everyone - people who live there, have lived there, drive through there, visit there, etc...
Thanks! :)
Sidewalks throughout the neighborhood would be very nice.
Sidewalks, commuter rail and "complete streets" remakes of Edgewood and Cassat Avenues.
On top of that, a full featured grocery store (even a small one). And more useful businesses in the Edgewood business district. How many times are you actually gonna go to the shoe repair shop?? Residents basically have to go to either Riverside or Normandy for anything useful. And they're too far to walk, so you'd be driving.
Murray Hill always struct me as a place that would be really cool to live (I really like the modest home sizes over there), but they just cant seem to get over that hump.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2011, 11:55:15 AM
Sidewalks, commuter rail and "complete streets" remakes of Edgewood and Cassat Avenues.
Good call. Edgewood and San Juan could REALLY benefit from a complete streets makeover.
QuoteOn top of that, a full featured grocery store (even a small one).
The area had TWO full featured grocery stores... the Winn Dixie on Cassat(now closed) and the independent store that is now a discount goods store.
Personally i'd like a comprehensive security force...the area gets lost with the cops....most of the own homes in the area that are HUD houses and these guys are refusing to do thier jobs when it comes to this area sometimes...several cops have told me it's "manageable"
Thanks everyone, great and interesting responses, almost everything that we were talking about in our group had to do with housing and trying to fix up some of the public areas that are eyesores to the community.
Most of the responses have been based on businesses and Edgewood, would yall suggest that fixing Edgewood would spur improvement in the houses and public areas? Or are am I just seeing issues that aren't really there?
thats a tuff question pre-recession one could say spruce up edgewood with shops that bring people in and the surrounding area will improve nicely. But its such a strange time right now. With the exception of Moon River and maybe the pool hall and edgewood bakery there is nothing there to pull anyone in. I'd say get rid of the sketchy-mart, turn over Murray Hill Theater to someone that will restore it. Get the Fat Kat to either spruce up or move out. It's weird how the restaurants and shops that open there are not really kosher with a business plan. I like the idea for neighborhood grocery, coffee shop, Indian Restaurant!
They are there but the businesses on Edgewood have more money than most of the homeowners in the area and they can afford with the help of civic groups to fix it up and make it look nicer...but some streets are just nasty because of the people who live in the homes..some are nice as always but is there anything that can be done to make some of these properties more pleasing to look at...sooo many are rentals and in todays world means lots and lots of HUD properties of which i have found the tenants could care less what they do to the house that the government is paying for...drug dealing is rampent on many of the streets and there seems to be nothing that can be done....they call it "manageable".
What about groceries....i'd love to see smaller grocery stores...i've got an idea for small grocery stores that sell only local produce and meats...there are so many small spots open...with the amount of gardeners in this area alone a small produce shop could become a community center for fresh foods and information....maybe a donated store front at first...i know that i can produce about 200 head of lettuce in 2 months in a space big enough for a car...i'm just hoping for a produce market that's open all week long that's only local...this city use to be filled with spots like this .....then winn dixie and publix happened...see ....again the corporate heft controls us ....
Quote from: jaxlore on March 08, 2011, 08:57:23 AM
I'd say get rid of the sketchy-mart, turn over Murray Hill Theater to someone that will restore it. Get the Fat Kat to either spruce up or move out. It's weird how the restaurants and shops that open there are not really kosher with a business plan. I like the idea for neighborhood grocery, coffee shop, Indian Restaurant!
You cant just walk in and kick someone out of their business. This isn't Mexico. Yet.
Quotesooo many are rentals and in todays world means lots and lots of HUD
Guess we figured out where GG lives.
I'd suggest moving all the republicans out to improve the neighborhood.
Quote from: jaxlore on March 08, 2011, 08:57:23 AM
thats a tuff question pre-recession one could say spruce up edgewood with shops that bring people in and the surrounding area will improve nicely. But its such a strange time right now. With the exception of Moon River and maybe the pool hall and edgewood bakery there is nothing there to pull anyone in. I'd say get rid of the sketchy-mart, turn over Murray Hill Theater to someone that will restore it. Get the Fat Kat to either spruce up or move out. It's weird how the restaurants and shops that open there are not really kosher with a business plan. I like the idea for neighborhood grocery, coffee shop, Indian Restaurant!
Crazy Egg brings a lot of people in, as do the consignment furniture stores (which are actually very cool). Murray Hill Theater has shows regularly that bring in people from all over the city. The owner has actually spent quite a bit of money improving it. Dreamette is definitely a destination as well. Wine Warehouse and Curry Thomas Hardware are both cool places. There are more places than just Moon River and Perfect Rack that bring people in.
I would focus less on the existing businesses and more on attracting new businesses. There are many vacant buildings and storefronts that could be utililzed to add to the vibrancy of that strip.
QuoteI'd say get rid of the sketchy-mart, turn over Murray Hill Theater to someone that will restore it. Get the Fat Kat to either spruce up or move out.
Geeze, I dunno if thats such a great business plan.
The market supports what its going to support.
Murray Hill Theatre has been there as a Christian rock venue for decades, Fat Kat has opened up in that location at various times for a about a decade and the sketchy-mart is there b/c people shop there and the previous store was not supported by the market.
In fact, Dreamette's hasn't been renovated for far longer than Murray Hill Theatre... yet people still go. Does the fact that it isn't pretty make it any less contributory to the unique fabric of the neighborhood?
Lots of GOOD restaurants have come and gone in that area. The market didn't support some of the upscale places in the commercial district.
Murray Hill is never going to be Avondale, but it can become a thriving community again but it will take time. HUD housing has been in the neighborhood ever since my family has lived there... which dates back to 1971. HUD housing clearly has a place in the neighborhood, so you'll have to embrace it instead of resent it.
Make it more friendly for business and neighbors alike(walkable, bikeable and with strong transit connections) and support what you have. The market evolves when an environment is present for it to evolve within.
Some time ago I lived at 605 Talbot Avenue.Classic cute little place-a simple place on piers,wood construction and little touches such as covered front porch,arched door ways,small attached garage and a relatively big back yard.
The rent was typical for that mid 1980's era @ $375 per month and the owner was a willing seller-I could have purchased with a monthly mortgage payment within a couple of dollars of the rent.....and I didn't.
The trend was to look just to the east,across to Riverside/Avondale where a similar property over on Dancy for instance was similarly priced or well worth an affordable "step up" for typically the same type and size structure.
Since then,during the height of the "Bubble" or whatever it was the Talbot house sold for over $90,000 range I recall without searching official records.Obviously the payments and taxes a burden.
I was probably also intuitive in another aspect-in a trend similar to my bellweather native North Miami,US 17 has become a demarcation,literally right sidewrong side of the rail road tracks.
......So today,after making this initial post, out of curiosity I made a visit to Talbot Ave.Had this been my native North Miami I would have been extremely vigilant,no getting out of the car.I can't help but think of this in relation to current events in Jacksonville-would the pattern unfold picture perfect??
My former block of Talbot particularly beat up so to speak with trash along the street sides and a general malaise with a few scattered exceptions.The nice wood lot with mature pines at the end of the street has been transformed in to three or four identical new(er) but not happy cookie cutter houses,two complete with "for sale' signs.A section of the former wood lot sports pine tree stumps.
My former residence hardly recognized at first.Fence and front porch gone and a general unkempt appearance.
I have photos of the Talbot house and street of that different era,just as I do of my North Miami.Something whispers inside me: 'skip it'
Murray Hill could be thriving now.If not by now,when??The walk & bike elements are basically no more limited than the RAP area.
Hopefully more optimistic posts here suggest a thriving future for Murray Hill and close by environs.Perhaps such decline within the epicenter of a county faced with militant outlying anti Duval theme in an era of presumed "inevitable growth" was...inevitable.
And where would the folks who, while contributing to the malaise perceived by others such as myself, are in fact quite happy (or unaware) with the likes of present day Talbot go?? They came to Murray Hill either out of demand or osmosis.
Finally,a positive suggestion:If I lived on Talbot now I would have 630-CITY on speed dial.....................
I've read a little more on "complete streets" - I know that fieldafm mentioned them earlier - do complete streets currently exist in jacksonville anywhere? I think that might solve numerous issues, making safe areas for bikes and walkers would increase pedestrian traffic, which could increase the business along Edgewood, and potentially attract new merchants and residents. It seems like to make a conversion to "complete streets" would take a grant and/or some real buy in by JTA or the city?
I think the businesses along Edgewood should have a few floors on top of them for apartments. Anybody that's been to northeast New Jersey would know exactly what I'm talking about. (think of Bayonne, Jersey City, Hoboken, Elizabeth, etc)
Quote from: James on March 08, 2011, 12:35:50 PM
I've read a little more on "complete streets" - I know that fieldafm mentioned them earlier - do complete streets currently exist in jacksonville anywhere?
Hendricks Avenue is a good example of a complete streets makeover. It was originally a narrow four lane undivided road. It was reconstructed as a three lane roadway with bike lanes and wider sidewalks.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2269-p1030329.JPG)
The recent pedestrian project by JTA on Kings Road is also an example of implementing some complete streets concepts along a constrained arterial facility.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1184505044_7nmj2-M.jpg)
QuoteI think that might solve numerous issues, making safe areas for bikes and walkers would increase pedestrian traffic, which could increase the business along Edgewood, and potentially attract new merchants and residents. It seems like to make a conversion to "complete streets" would take a grant and/or some real buy in by JTA or the city?
It would take some real buy in from COJ's Public Works, JTA and FDOT. Within the urban core, many roads are already wide enough, so simple restripping efforts would accomplish a lot at an affordable cost.
I also think they should decrease some of the parking in the business district. It seems they've crammed in as many spaces for cars as that little area could possibly hold & it doesnt exactly look inviting for pedestrians. Avondale sorta suffers from the "sea of cars" look when you stroll through, but its not as bad.
I think side lots & spaces are the way to go. Don't mess up your storefronts by hiding them behind nothing but cars.
Quote from: peestandingup on March 08, 2011, 04:09:14 PM
I also think they should decrease some of the parking in the business district. It seems they've crammed in as many spaces for cars as that little area could possibly hold & it doesnt exactly look inviting for pedestrians. Avondale sorta suffers from the "sea of cars" look when you stroll through, but its not as bad.
I think side lots & spaces are the way to go. Don't mess up your storefronts by hiding them behind nothing but cars.
One advantage of on-street parking is that it helps to create a buffer between pedestrians and the road. Makes being on the sidewalk a more ped friendly. One of the problems with the Murray Hill area along Edgewood is that the sidewalk is a little too narrow so it makes it hard for the businesses to add to the pedestrian vibrancy by adding tables and chairs or signs. Avondale does not have this issues since their sidewalks are much wider.
A solution to this would be to reduce the 4 lanes on Edgewood from Mayflower up to College and make it a two lane with a center turn lane (three-lane section). This could allow for more sidewalk room while preserving the angled parking. As Lake mentioned, this was done on Hendricks Avenue. There's really no reason to have a four-lane section here especially when the inner lane periodically turns into a left turn lane. It creates a weird weaving pattern for the people who do not normall drive the road and don't know where the inner lane turns into a dedicated left turn lane.
Quote from: cline on March 08, 2011, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 08, 2011, 04:09:14 PM
I also think they should decrease some of the parking in the business district. It seems they've crammed in as many spaces for cars as that little area could possibly hold & it doesnt exactly look inviting for pedestrians. Avondale sorta suffers from the "sea of cars" look when you stroll through, but its not as bad.
I think side lots & spaces are the way to go. Don't mess up your storefronts by hiding them behind nothing but cars.
One advantage of on-street parking is that it helps to create a buffer between pedestrians and the road. Makes being on the sidewalk a more ped friendly. One of the problems with the Murray Hill area along Edgewood is that the sidewalk is a little too narrow so it makes it hard for the businesses to add to the pedestrian vibrancy by adding tables and chairs or signs. Avondale does not have this issues since their sidewalks are much wider.
A solution to this would be to reduce the 4 lanes on Edgewood from Mayflower up to College and make it a two lane with a center turn lane (three-lane section). This could allow for more sidewalk room while preserving the angled parking. As Lake mentioned, this was done on Hendricks Avenue. There's really no reason to have a four-lane section here especially when the inner lane periodically turns into a left turn lane. It creates a weird weaving pattern for the people who do not normall drive the road and don't know where the inner lane turns into a dedicated left turn lane.
I think a good idea then would be to widen that sidewalk. But in order to do that, you'd have to take away the parking that is directly in front of the stores. But you could leave the spaces that are in the middle.
I think that would be a win.
Quote from: peestandingup on March 08, 2011, 04:46:49 PM
Quote from: cline on March 08, 2011, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 08, 2011, 04:09:14 PM
I also think they should decrease some of the parking in the business district. It seems they've crammed in as many spaces for cars as that little area could possibly hold & it doesnt exactly look inviting for pedestrians. Avondale sorta suffers from the "sea of cars" look when you stroll through, but its not as bad.
I think side lots & spaces are the way to go. Don't mess up your storefronts by hiding them behind nothing but cars.
One advantage of on-street parking is that it helps to create a buffer between pedestrians and the road. Makes being on the sidewalk a more ped friendly. One of the problems with the Murray Hill area along Edgewood is that the sidewalk is a little too narrow so it makes it hard for the businesses to add to the pedestrian vibrancy by adding tables and chairs or signs. Avondale does not have this issues since their sidewalks are much wider.
A solution to this would be to reduce the 4 lanes on Edgewood from Mayflower up to College and make it a two lane with a center turn lane (three-lane section). This could allow for more sidewalk room while preserving the angled parking. As Lake mentioned, this was done on Hendricks Avenue. There's really no reason to have a four-lane section here especially when the inner lane periodically turns into a left turn lane. It creates a weird weaving pattern for the people who do not normall drive the road and don't know where the inner lane turns into a dedicated left turn lane.
I think a good idea then would be to widen that sidewalk. But in order to do that, you'd have to take away the parking that is directly in front of the stores. But you could leave the spaces that are in the middle.
I think that would be a win.
I was referring more to the blocks north of Mayflower Street. Since Edgewood is only two lanes for the block between Mayflower south to Plymouth with angled parking in the middle, this option would not be feasible. What you might be able to do would be to keep the angled parking that is in the center of the road and change the current angled parking that is in front of the businesses and change it to true parallel parking. This might be able to free up some more sidewalk space. Like you mentioned though, for this block you could do away with the parking in front of the stores and widen the sidewalks since they already have parking in the center. Not sure how the businesses would feel about this although Moon River might be on board since it would allow them to add outdoor seating.
The Murray Hill Business Owners Association disbanded because no one really wanted to build a cohesive group to stand up to the city. So Gary and Sandy Polenta of Edgewood Bakery, they tried really hard to build a solid group too, gave up and went back to their business.
For those who would like a 2-lane road and wider sidewalks, so would many of the people to slow down traffic and make it easier to walk up and down, but sadly each block costs close to a million bucks to fix the traffic, sidewalks, pavement and lights. So Springfield got that money and Murray Hill got improvements around Mayflower and then up at Post/Edgewood. Not enough money to do it all.
QuoteSan Juan could REALLY benefit from a complete streets makeover
When did San Juan become part of Murray Hill? As a member of MHPA, it might be interesting to know that the southern boundary of Murray Hill ends at Park Street (along Park from Cassat to 17)
The old Winn Dixie is a stone's throw from the one on Normandy, is it really so hard to walk or drive a couple of blocks?
QuoteWhen did San Juan become part of Murray Hill? As a member of MHPA, it might be interesting to know that the southern boundary of Murray Hill ends at Park Street (along Park from Cassat to 17)
.
I'm very much well aware... I was mentioning San Juan in an antecdotal fashion.
Physical or design improvements like complete streets would help, but in my view what Murray Hill needs is most likely to come to us via the mobility plan or the end of concurrency in Florida.
Urban growth boundaries would also add incentives for development in areas like this. I've been to neighborhoods in Portland that used to be like Murray Hill, and that are now quite successful, due to Portland's urban growth boundary.
Quote from: peestandingup on March 07, 2011, 12:51:02 PM
On top of that, a full featured grocery store (even a small one). And more useful businesses in the Edgewood business district. How many times are you actually gonna go to the shoe repair shop?? Residents basically have to go to either Riverside or Normandy for anything useful. And they're too far to walk, so you'd be driving.
Murray Hill always struct me as a place that would be really cool to live (I really like the modest home sizes over there), but they just cant seem to get over that hump.
There's a gigantic winn-dixie at the corner of post and cassat, how much closer are you looking for?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 21, 2011, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 07, 2011, 12:51:02 PM
On top of that, a full featured grocery store (even a small one). And more useful businesses in the Edgewood business district. How many times are you actually gonna go to the shoe repair shop?? Residents basically have to go to either Riverside or Normandy for anything useful. And they're too far to walk, so you'd be driving.
Murray Hill always struct me as a place that would be really cool to live (I really like the modest home sizes over there), but they just cant seem to get over that hump.
There's a gigantic winn-dixie at the corner of post and cassat, how much closer are you looking for?
You mean the one on Normandy in the quasi-hood just down from the porn shop?? ;D
Anyways, does anyone really consider this part of Murray Hill? I sure wouldn't. Its not just about distance, but being integrated into the actual neighborhood & walkable (like the Riverside Publix & soon-to-be San Marco Publix).
I mean, why not just add the Normandy Wal-Mart being part of Murray Hill as well??
Been actually looking at moving to Murray Hill because I actually like that Edgewood corridor for the most part, but one of my problems with Murray Hill is that when you go into a lot of the residential areas there are few sidewalks and narrow streets. I don't want to have to walk in middle of the road to get somewhere, and I definitely don't want my kids out in the middle of the road when they want to go to the park or something. Even a busy corridor like Post St. that is plenty wide enough to support a sidewalk on both sides doesn't have them.
I think that Edgewood is ok for now. I spend a fair amount of time there, and I think that they have some very cool businesses there. Crazy Egg is a great addition. Love Edgewood Bakery. I think the consignment shops are cool, too. My kids love the Dreamette. I don't think Edgewood Ave. is particularly unfriendly for a pedestrian. I think upgrading the pedestrian features (especially sidewalks) on the adjacent streets should be a much bigger priority to the area than upgrading Edgewood.
Relay the streetcar tracks from the end of College, across the CSX, and south along the west side the CSX to Edgewood, in the center of Edgewood Village, a simple "run around track" some landscaping, and a nice station shelter.... STREETCAR NEIGHBORHOOD REVIVED....
Then there is San Jose, Saint Nicholas, Avondale, Fairfax, Ortega, Venita, Brentwood, New Springfield, Mann-Jennings Park, Durkeeville, Farmers Market, Lackawanna, and.... CAMP JOHNSTON NAS JAX.
OCKLAWAHA
Sidewalks are a big deal.