I am hosting a chat room on my server using Meebo chat room to discuss the WJCT's 2011 Mayoral Debate on Growth and the Environment.
Here is the URL: http://www.wjsimpson.com/2011_Mayoral_Debate/index.html (http://www.wjsimpson.com/2011_Mayoral_Debate/index.html)
Feel free to join me and talk with me and other fellow MetroJax members about what the candidates are debating in real-time.
It will air on WJCT (Channel 7) at 8pm.
-Josh
If people aren't near a television, I'm told it will also stream online here: http://wjctcreativeworx.com
Check that. http://www.wjctcreativeworx.com/DEBATEWEB.html (after a commercial)
I really just don't understand Mullaney's strategy....there are only so many strong conservatives out there...is he trying to unseat Hogan as their favorite?
That's exactly what he's trying to do. And with 40-something percent of the Tea Party straw poll, I think Mullaney is making some headway.
Tell Alvin there's already a Winn-Dixie downtown. Btw, Mullaney is driving the "Get the house in financial order" thing down everyone's throats.
I think Audey is doing really well. She is so well spoken!
Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2011, 08:38:56 PM
That's exactly what he's trying to do. And with 40-something percent of the Tea Party straw poll, I think Mullaney is making some headway.
well if Hogan and Mullaney make the runoff, one of them will need to move to the center
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 08:50:54 PM
Tell Alvin there's already a Winn-Dixie downtown.
yeah, that was really sad
Quote from: fsujax on March 03, 2011, 08:58:16 PM
I think Audey is doing really well. She is so well spoken!
I agree. And she already has my vote, but I do not have a lot of faith in my fellow Jacksonvillians.
Mullaney was quick to point out that a Downtown Development Authority will need increased taxes. God knows there are a lot of people in this city that think downtown is a total waste and are dead set against a tax increase of any type.
He is going after the tea partiers big time. How many times has he said "I am opposed to new taxes"?
Quote from: fsujax on March 03, 2011, 08:58:16 PM
I think Audey is doing really well. She is so well spoken!
I am definitely for Audrey. Unfortunately Hogan, who has missed many of the public forums has the support of many Republican/First Baptist members and is in the lead according to a local poll. Those of us on this forum who support Audrey need to get out in the next 2 weeks and spread the word.
Wow! Audrey just beat the rest of the competition to death on the issue of mass transit.
$70 - $90 million to repay the feds for shutting down the skyway! Where is Stjr?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
Wow! Audrey just beat the rest of the competition to death on the issue of mass transit.
$70 - $90 million to repay the feds for shutting down the skyway! Where is Stjr?
hmm...wonder where she got that information from?
She is good! maybe she got it directly from JTA! she also is the only one who brought up the term TOD! Go Audrey!!
I'd say the night was a solid win for Audrey.
And for Abel Harding. His questions were the best of the bunch.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 08:59:32 PM
well if Hogan and Mullaney make the runoff, one of them will need to move to the center
I cannot imagine any electoral math that would cause that to happen.
I think Rick needs to put more thought into his skyway moratorium point. You don't need to shut it down for two years to figure out a plan to better utilize it or find out if you have to repay nearly $100 million for shutting it down for good. These are things that could be discussed and figured out now before the next candidate takes office. That way, you truly hit the ground running on day one in office. Also, having a huge abandoned elevated transit line and closed stations all throughout your DT core can't be good for DT revitalization.
Audrey Moran ran circles around the others. She has my vote right now.
The three topics that are tops on my list: Education, Transportation, and Downtown. Moran hit all of these with great responses.
Regarding Mullaney, I initially liked his idea: we need to restructure the city's finances and not raise taxes and fees if we don't have to. However, it seems to me that he never said what that restructuring entails. Is it cutting jobs? Cutting salaries? Ending programs? WHAT? These are all unpopular things, and so it leads me to believe that he wants to do some of these things, but does not want to turn any voter away. As the debate went on, he started to use this response as a crutch.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
Wow! Audrey just beat the rest of the competition to death on the issue of mass transit.
$70 - $90 million to repay the feds for shutting down the skyway! Where is Stjr?
hmm...wonder where she got that information from?
I could see your guilty smile from here.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
I think Rick needs to put more thought into his skyway moratorium point. You don't need to shut it down for two years to figure out a plan to better utilize it or find out if you have to repay nearly $100 million for shutting it down for good. These are things that could be discussed and figured out now before the next candidate takes office. That way, you truly hit the ground running on day one in office. Also, having a huge abandoned elevated transit line and closed stations all throughout your DT core can't be good for DT revitalization.
I agree with this. I don't know if Rick has thought through the consequences of some of his suggestions. I know he's trying to tack hard-right on these questions to pick up the Hogan voters who are running for a new candidate. But at some point you need to add a 35th point to your plan that gets to quality of life and keeping the structural pieces of revitalization in place.
How long before Rick calls the skyway Obama-rail?
Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2011, 09:36:36 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 08:59:32 PM
well if Hogan and Mullaney make the runoff, one of them will need to move to the center
I cannot imagine any electoral math that would cause that to happen.
which is why Mullaney's strategy makes no sense...he's basically handed the center to Audrey alone
Quote from: JeffreyS on March 03, 2011, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
Wow! Audrey just beat the rest of the competition to death on the issue of mass transit.
$70 - $90 million to repay the feds for shutting down the skyway! Where is Stjr?
hmm...wonder where she got that information from?
I could see your guilty smile from here.
not me :)
Tonite we got a look at jacksonville's next mayor , Audrey Moran. You could tell she was having fun and comfortable in her skin, smilin all the while. It was a big big win for her. Very exciting for the future!!!!wow!!
I only caught about ten minutes of it on the car radio and only Moran and Mullaney were at all articulate, but Mullaney seemed to be doing the political tap dance around the questions while Moran seemed to be direct and unafraid of offending.
What that the way it was in the whole thing?
In short, yes.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
I think Rick needs to put more thought into his skyway moratorium point. You don't need to shut it down for two years to figure out a plan to better utilize it or find out if you have to repay nearly $100 million for shutting it down for good. These are things that could be discussed and figured out now before the next candidate takes office. That way, you truly hit the ground running on day one in office. Also, having a huge abandoned elevated transit line and closed stations all throughout your DT core can't be good for DT revitalization.
I couldn't have been more pleased with how the discussion of the Skyway went last night. Audrey has clearly spent more time thinking about how to link our urban neighborhoods together than the rest of the candidates combined. Even Rick appeared uncomfortable talking about it and I could see the regret in his eyes of ever putting that point in his plan.
But what I loved the most was when Abel threw the $70-$90 million repayment back in his face by quoting Congressman Mica. Great job last night, Abel.
I have a 1-point plan for Jacksonville's success:
1. Vote for Audrey Moran.
Quote from: dougskiles on March 04, 2011, 05:14:41 AM
I have a 1-point plan for Jacksonville's success:
1. Vote for Audrey Moran.
I like your plan dougskiles! But I'll add part two:
2. Convince your friends - democrat, republican, independent - to vote for Audrey Moran.
She's clearly the strongest candidate - but look what happened in our gubernatorial race. Please, if you have the time, volunteer for Audrey. Talk her up whenever you have a chance. We have a chance to move Jacksonville in the right direction - let's get it done!
Audrey Moran has done her homework so well. It is kinda pathetic that there are few Duval voters who want to vote for Hogan because of his Baptist Church and/or Republican affiliation.
Political parties in this mayoral race DOES NOT matter. This is all about Jacksonville. This is our home. This is what we need to take back what was truly ours. Audrey Moran has shown that as her gleaming and beacon-like smile in the last night's debate.
-Josh
QuoteI have a 1-point plan for Jacksonville's success:
1. Vote for Audrey Moran
Sometimes, the best plan is the simplest plan!
Is there an archive anywhere online where I can watch/hear the debate?
Personally I still do not know where these polls are coming from that state Mike (no show) Hogan is in the lead. All of the forums including TU seem to show support for Moran, bastardize Hogan, and show uncertainty toward the other candidates. From what people are saying they seem to be leading toward Moran. Last night they mentioned the campaigns run the polls? Could these polls be skewed for promotional purpose or political strategy? Could one candidate be in the lead and the polls show another?
Moran, All the way!!!
As a far left liberal, I can say without a doubt that this is the absolute first and probably only time in my life I'll vote for a Republican. Moran just shows too much promise for this city not to vote for her in my eyes. She's a breath of fresh air and actually stands a chance at getting elected.
It's sad and says something about the state of politics in this city that the only way for progressive democrats to get anything done is to vote for a progressive republican. I feel Brown and Lee just don't have the cult of personality and/or experience it takes to get elected in this place.
I may not agree with all of her positions, but she's far and away a better option for this city than the teahadists Hogan and Mullaney running for office.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
I think Rick needs to put more thought into his skyway moratorium point. You don't need to shut it down for two years to figure out a plan to better utilize it or find out if you have to repay nearly $100 million for shutting it down for good. These are things that could be discussed and figured out now before the next candidate takes office. That way, you truly hit the ground running on day one in office. Also, having a huge abandoned elevated transit line and closed stations all throughout your DT core can't be good for DT revitalization.
I am not a one issue voter so Moran disagreeing with me on the Skyway or Mullaney going my way on it won't be the final factor in who I vote for. But, given that, I think Moran will find tough sledding if she proposes expanding the Skyway. Given all the issues the City is facing at the moment, I would suggest this would be a very poor use of political capital early in her administration. The best she could hope for is to keep it running like it is and try to get more use of what exists. Personally, I think that, based on history and common sense, that's a losing battle as well and the Skyway will just continue to hold back rail mass transit in Jax as a result.
As to the $70 to $90 million giveback to the Feds, I still don't see evidence that would actually be enforced, either legally and/or politically. I think it is more of a red herring by Skyway proponents to keep the Skyway going than anything else. I also note that this amount is far less than the $$$ the Feds put in the Skyway so there must be a depreciating schedule as I have always predicted. At some point, we would owe the Feds back nothing assuming this is a real "threat" to the City.
By the way, in the debate, it wasn't made clear, but it would be JTA, not the City, that I would think would be accountable for closing the Skyway. JTA sacrificing its new headquarters building to close the Skyway would be a double win for the taxpayers! :D
During the debate, both Moran and Abel Harding mentioned Congressman Mica as the source for that number. Perhaps, you can contact his office and request detailed information on where they got that number from? If so, we'd be happy to post what you can gather on the front page of this website. Btw, she didn't endorse expanding it either. Her sentiment was that our overall mass transit system network needs to be looked at and improved, if the goal is to encourage infill growth, transit oriented development and better utilizing our existing infrastructure assets. With that in mind, she felt unilaterally putting the bulls eye on the skyway for immediate closure was shortsighted at best. Especially, since we would have to pay the feds back almost $100 million.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 12:29:52 PM
During the debate, both Moran and Abel Harding mentioned Congressman Mica as the source for that number. Perhaps, you can contact his office and request detailed information on where they got that number from? If so, we'd be happy to post what you can gather on the front page of this website.
Lake, I am just a "lowly" MJ poster. ;) Maybe MJ's crack "investigative reporters" could contact Mica and write that front page article. It would be of much interest to all sides, I am sure. I have asked repeatedly for Skyway proponents to back up this "Federal payback" argument with specific documentation as to the language, contract, process, timetable, amounts, calculations, etc. not to mention actual precedents of payback checks written. Over the months and years of posting this request, not one person has stepped up to the plate to do so. Makes me wonder!
There are only so many of us and we already know how deals with the Feds on projects like this generally work. With our time so limited, this is not a major priority, at the moment. However, we'd be willing to upload whatever anyone else (who will take the effort to search) can find.
Quote from: stjr on March 04, 2011, 12:40:26 PM
Lake, I am just a "lowly" MJ poster. ;) Maybe MJ's crack "investigative reporters" could contact Mica and write that front page article. It would be of much interest to all sides, I am sure. I have asked repeatedly for Skyway proponents to back up this "Federal payback" argument with specific documentation as to the language, contract, process, timetable, amounts, calculations, etc. not to mention actual precedents of payback checks written. Over the months and years of posting this request, not one person has stepped up to the plate to do so. Makes me wonder!
I am a lowly MJ poster like you stjr. But, any time I spend evaluating the skyway will be figuring out how to make it better instead of what we would have to return to the feds. Even if that were to be zero, there would still be a tremendous cost in demolition.
We are not at a time in history when we can just throw away the resources we have. This is a time to get the most out of what we have. The skyway is a critical piece in the transit puzzle - and arguably the most expensive piece of that puzzle to re-create. Does anyone really think we are going to get a huge chunk of cash anytime soon to build an inner-city transit system?
Quote from: dougskiles on March 04, 2011, 02:22:28 PM
I am a lowly MJ poster like you stjr. But, any time I spend evaluating the skyway will be figuring out how to make it better instead of what we would have to return to the feds. Even if that were to be zero, there would still be a tremendous cost in demolition.
We are not at a time in history when we can just throw away the resources we have. This is a time to get the most out of what we have. The skyway is a critical piece in the transit puzzle - and arguably the most expensive piece of that puzzle to re-create. Does anyone really think we are going to get a huge chunk of cash anytime soon to build an inner-city transit system?
I only question the Federal payback when proponents bring it up as a major reason for keeping the Skyway. I get the feeling if proponents didn't have that arrow in their quiver, they would feel far less confident in their ability to convince naysayers such as myself on why it should continue to operate.
As to getting the most out of what we have, that is exactly my point. Every year the Skyway bleeds $5 to $7 million in cash losses and a nearly equal amount or more in depreciation of the capital investment and/or new cash expenditures for replacement or updating capital investments. For all those millions, we get next to nothing in return. My point is should we put this non-productive boondoggle out of its misery and truly pursue something that gives us more than a near zero return of value.
By the way, I am not phased by the demo costs. Most of the concrete and metal has recycling value. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing could come down for less than a year or two's worth of losses. Better yet, for maybe the same or less money, just convert it to an elevated bike lane/sidewalk. Like the Federal payback play, the specter of an abandoned Skyway is just another specious "reason" to keep the Skyway by proponents.
I think the real focus should be on your last comment about not getting funding for an inner city transit system. I would suggest a big reason for that is the ongoing image of the failed Skyway. Until that fades to oblivion, expect continued disappointment in finding the rail funding we all want to see. This should be the number one reason for you and others here to see it my way. 8)
QuoteEvery year the Skyway bleeds $5 to $7 million in cash losses
Not true. That figure INCLUDES depreciation.
BTW, mass transit is not a for-profit operation.
If you really were concerned about cutting the fat at JTA, you could start by looking at a lot of the redundant routes(downtown for instance) they run that can be consolidated.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 04, 2011, 03:26:30 PM
QuoteEvery year the Skyway bleeds $5 to $7 million in cash losses
Not true. That figure INCLUDES depreciation.
BTW, mass transit is not a for-profit operation.
If you really were concerned about cutting the fat at JTA, you could start by looking at a lot of the redundant routes(downtown for instance) they run that can be consolidated.
Mass Transit SHOULD be for-profit operation so it can build a pool of funds to support enhancement / expansion of its services.-Josh
I'm not understanding this line of thinking? Why should mass transit be a for profit operation but roads, airports, libraries, parks, sidewalks, bicycle facilities, public safety, and schools should not be?
I do not even think mass transit should collect fares because it is so cancerous to the perception of it not being a public service. The fare box is not the main benefit of having good transit in your region.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 04, 2011, 03:26:30 PM
QuoteEvery year the Skyway bleeds $5 to $7 million in cash losses
Not true. That figure INCLUDES depreciation.
BTW, mass transit is not a for-profit operation.
Field, you are wrong on the cash flow. I have published repeatedly the Skyway financials here for everyone's review. Depreciation is another $5 to $7 million and total net losses are $12 to $14 million a year. Please check your numbers before making accusations.
Once again, I am not advocating a profit. I am only saying that we should get the most bang for our buck for the subsidies invested. Would you rather lose $7 million a year on something a thousand people a day use or on a transit that ten thousand a day use? That's what it comes down to.
Just ask Tri-Rail about the federal payback clause! They have a first hand account, with the a nasty little letter from FTA's (Peter Rogoff) when they suggested making major cutbacks to service.
Mike Hogan would be an unmitigated disaster for this town
Agreed
Quote from: fsujax on March 04, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
Just ask Tri-Rail about the federal payback clause! They have a first hand account, with the a nasty little letter from FTA's (Peter Rogoff) when they suggested making major cutbacks to service.
Was Tri-rail built as a Federal demonstration/test project for the entire country like the Skyway so that if it failed it did the country a favor to show it doesn't work? Should a local community forever subsidize a national experiment? Does the commitment not diminish to zero over some period of time at least?
Is Tri-rail as old as the Skyway or a relatively new project lacking fulfillment of even a short term portion of the promised and proper commitment from the locals? Even at that, other than a perfunctory FTA letter, does anyone actually think real dollars would change hands? Has it ever happened anywhere else, even when threats by the Feds are made? Or is all this just so much blustering?
Quote from: stjr on March 04, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Would you rather lose $7 million a year on something a thousand people a day use or on a transit that ten thousand a day use? That's what it comes down to.
This is more of an operational issue, as opposed to mode. For example, if you eliminate the duplicate bus services running downtown and force all transit users in the DT area to use the skyway and transfer to local buses at the skyway's end points, ridership will shoot up dramatically and the overall transit network's O&M would fall.
Quote from: stjr on March 05, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
Quote from: fsujax on March 04, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
Just ask Tri-Rail about the federal payback clause! They have a first hand account, with the a nasty little letter from FTA's (Peter Rogoff) when they suggested making major cutbacks to service.
Was Tri-rail built as a Federal demonstration/test project for the entire country like the Skyway so that if it failed it did the country a favor to show it doesn't work? Should a local community forever subsidize a national experiment? Does the commitment not diminish to zero over some period of time at least?
Is Tri-rail as old as the Skyway or a relatively new project lacking fulfillment of even a short term portion of the promised and proper commitment from the locals? Even at that, other than a perfunctory FTA letter, does anyone actually think real dollars would change hands? Has it ever happened anywhere else, even when threats by the Feds are made? Or is all this just so much blustering?
fsujax can you expand on the Tri Rail. What are you saying about the Federal money? Good or bad in your opinion? I know someone that is going to try the Tri Rail and go from West Palm to Miami for the first time and try this service. I'll be one of the first to say that I don't fully understand the issue.
But stjr if at the very least the the new JTA transportation hub is scratched then how many millions would then be immediately freed up for a street car route. I can't help but think a street car route from the Prime Osborn down Bay street to the stadium should be a priority. It can only help an Entertainment District.
Still trying to wrap my arms around this issue. I know throw in the mobility plan too.
There was a threat a few years back that TriRail was going to be shut down (they had no dedicated source of funding and the Legislature wasn't being helpful)...when they asked the Feds, they were told "yes, you'll have to pay back the Federal money"
Quote from: stjr on March 05, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
Was Tri-rail built as a Federal demonstration/test project for the entire country like the Skyway so that if it failed it did the country a favor to show it doesn't work? Should a local community forever subsidize a national experiment? Does the commitment not diminish to zero over some period of time at least?
b]
Is that true? Nobody else in the country has an elevated train system in an urban area that works? Miami has a people mover - is it a failure? Are they talking about taking it down? Didn't Indy recently build one?
Ours is a failure of the entire transit system, not one piece of it (which happens to be the only piece we have). Imagine how different things would be if we spent our BJP dollars on commuter rail instead of overpasses.
Yes, the skyway was built as an urban peoplemover demonstration project along with Detroit's Peoplemover and Miami's Metromover. Miami's metromover has enjoyed the most success because they actually did what they were supposed to do, which is build a regional mass transit system (Metrorail, Tri-Rail, etc.) to feed riders into it. Since it's opening, it has been expanded and is now fare free to use. Also, either Detroit or Miami are talking about shutting their systems down. Detroit is talking about connecting it to their privately funded LRT line that is expected to break ground pretty soon.