April 16, 2009, President Obama announced his plans for High Speed Rail and at that time, Oil Prices were $50 per barrel. Today, because of unrest in the middle east, we are staring at $100 per barrel and Goldman economists are calling for an oil shortage as a result of middle east revolts. The United States is coming back online from the 2009 recession are seeing for ever 1 cent rise in gas, the citizens lose 1.46 billion in purchasing power for the calendar year. Prices have risen 18 cents over the last week and could reach as high as 50 cents once the March oil Contracts covert over to April contracts soon.
The Gulf of Mexico is still shut down from the disaster last year, and we are seeing that our domestic oil production has been cut from 7 billion barrels to 6 billion, when if we were at 10 billion, none of these issues would be on the table, we would have enough to satisfy our domestic needs, so says John Hofmeister, former head of Shell Oil Operations in the U.S. With the gulf shut, and oil companies not excited about the insurance required to drill, and prices on the rise, what will Obama do in the short term and long term to move the needle for the American consumer?
If you think 140 or 150 a barrel is scary, look at what some "experts" are predicting, from CNBC:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/41752844 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/41752844)
I can only hope it goes over $150...
The only thing most American's see is money signs. If the price goes up, maybe some people will start to realize this isn't a renewable source, and we should probably be exploring other options. Plus, we should stop raping the poorest countries in the world for their only natural resources of value.
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
I can only hope it goes over $150...
+1.
The low gas prices we've gone through over the past two years are simply the result of the bad economy. They would have continued to go up from their 2008 highs if spending hadn't dropped. Now that the economy is recovering, we're seeing the prices come back up. Add to that the Middle East/Africa situation and things are about to get very interesting.
No doubt! $200 or $250 would be even better!
This was in the NY Times this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/opinion/23friedman.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=general (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/opinion/23friedman.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=general)
Quote
If Not Now, When?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
What’s unfolding in the Arab world today is the mother of all wake-up calls. And what the voice on the other end of the line is telling us is clear as a bell:
“America, you have built your house at the foot of a volcano. That volcano is now spewing lava from different cracks and is rumbling like it’s going to blow. Move your house!†In this case, “move your house†means “end your addiction to oil.â€
No one is rooting harder for the democracy movements in the Arab world to succeed than I am. But even if things go well, this will be a long and rocky road. The smart thing for us to do right now is to impose a $1-a-gallon gasoline tax, to be phased in at 5 cents a month beginning in 2012, with all the money going to pay down the deficit. Legislating a higher energy price today that takes effect in the future, notes the Princeton economist Alan Blinder, would trigger a shift in buying and investment well before the tax kicks in. With one little gasoline tax, we can make ourselves more economically and strategically secure, help sell more Chevy Volts and free ourselves to openly push for democratic values in the Middle East without worrying anymore that it will harm our oil interests. Yes, it will mean higher gas prices, but prices are going up anyway, folks. Let’s capture some it for ourselves.
It is about time. For the last 50 years, America (and Europe and Asia) have treated the Middle East as if it were just a collection of big gas stations: Saudi station, Iran station, Kuwait station, Bahrain station, Egypt station, Libya station, Iraq station, United Arab Emirates station, etc. Our message to the region has been very consistent: “Guys (it was only guys we spoke with), here’s the deal. Keep your pumps open, your oil prices low, don’t bother the Israelis too much and, as far as we’re concerned, you can do whatever you want out back. You can deprive your people of whatever civil rights you like. You can engage in however much corruption you like. You can preach whatever intolerance from your mosques that you like. You can print whatever conspiracy theories about us in your newspapers that you like. You can keep your women as illiterate as you like. You can create whatever vast welfare-state economies, without any innovative capacity, that you like. You can undereducate your youth as much as you like. Just keep your pumps open, your oil prices low, don’t hassle the Jews too much â€" and you can do whatever you want out back.â€
It was that attitude that enabled the Arab world to be insulated from history for the last 50 years â€" to be ruled for decades by the same kings and dictators. Well, history is back. The combination of rising food prices, huge bulges of unemployed youth and social networks that are enabling those youths to organize against their leaders is breaking down all the barriers of fear that kept these kleptocracies in power.
But fasten your seat belts. This is not going to be a joy ride because the lid is being blown off an entire region with frail institutions, scant civil society and virtually no democratic traditions or culture of innovation. The United Nations’ Arab Human Development Report 2002 warned us about all of this, but the Arab League made sure that that report was ignored in the Arab world and the West turned a blind eye. But that report â€" compiled by a group of Arab intellectuals led by Nader Fergany, an Egyptian statistician â€" was prophetic. It merits re-reading today to appreciate just how hard this democratic transition will be.
The report stated that the Arab world is suffering from three huge deficits â€" a deficit of education, a deficit of freedom and a deficit of women’s empowerment. A summary of the report in Middle East Quarterly in the Fall of 2002 detailed the key evidence: the gross domestic product of the entire Arab world combined was less than that of Spain. Per capita expenditure on education in Arab countries dropped from 20 percent of that in industrialized countries in 1980 to 10 percent in the mid-1990s. In terms of the number of scientific papers per unit of population, the average output of the Arab world per million inhabitants was roughly 2 percent of that of an industrialized country.
When the report was compiled, the Arab world translated about 330 books annually, one-fifth of the number that Greece did. Out of seven world regions, the Arab countries had the lowest freedom score in the late 1990s in the rankings of Freedom House. At the dawn of the 21st century, the Arab world had more than 60 million illiterate adults, the majority of whom were women. Yemen could be the first country in the world to run out of water within 10 years.
This is the vaunted “stability†all these dictators provided â€" the stability of societies frozen in time.
Seeing the Arab democracy movements in Egypt and elsewhere succeed in modernizing their countries would be hugely beneficial to them and to the world. We must do whatever we can to help. But no one should have any illusions about how difficult and convulsive the Arabs’ return to history is going to be. Let’s root for it, without being in the middle of it.
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
I can only hope it goes over $150...
The only thing most American's see is money signs. If the price goes up, maybe some people will start to realize this isn't a renewable source, and we should probably be exploring other options. Plus, we should stop raping the poorest countries in the world for their only natural resources of value.
Who doesn't know that oil isn't renewable. This notion that oil will increase to some outrageous magic number and poof the nation never uses another drop is retarded. Like all of sudden commuter rail lines sprout up - Boeing unveils their brand new 747 'Volt' Jet - the government hands out a Segway to every American.
Hoping for a gas crisis is equally dense.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
I can only hope it goes over $150...
The only thing most American's see is money signs. If the price goes up, maybe some people will start to realize this isn't a renewable source, and we should probably be exploring other options. Plus, we should stop raping the poorest countries in the world for their only natural resources of value.
Who doesn't know that oil isn't renewable. This notion that oil will increase to some outrageous magic number and poof the nation never uses another drop is retarded. Like all of sudden commuter rail lines sprout up - Boeing unveils their brand new 747 'Volt' Jet - the government hands out a Segway to every American.
Hoping for a gas crisis is equally dense.
Crises spur change, status quo, by definition, does not... Hoping for a temporary crisis is essentially hoping for a catalyst that will bring about permanent change for the better. Noble goal if you ask me.
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:01:16 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
I can only hope it goes over $150...
The only thing most American's see is money signs. If the price goes up, maybe some people will start to realize this isn't a renewable source, and we should probably be exploring other options. Plus, we should stop raping the poorest countries in the world for their only natural resources of value.
Who doesn't know that oil isn't renewable. This notion that oil will increase to some outrageous magic number and poof the nation never uses another drop is retarded. Like all of sudden commuter rail lines sprout up - Boeing unveils their brand new 747 'Volt' Jet - the government hands out a Segway to every American.
Hoping for a gas crisis is equally dense.
Crises spur change, status quo, by definition, does not... Hoping for a temporary crisis is essentially hoping for a catalyst that will bring about permanent change for the better. Noble goal if you ask me.
An oil crisis could be a catalyst.... to a world wide depression. If you want to be 'noble' start working around the clock for a solution instead of praying for a crisis that could cause a nationwide collapse. The infrastructure and technologies needed to be free of oil are not available... and a crisis of any kind would only set us back in making progress towards these goals.
Quoteeven if things go well, this will be a long and rocky road. The smart thing for us to do right now is to impose a $1-a-gallon gasoline tax, to be phased in at 5 cents a month beginning in 2012, with all the money going to pay down the deficit.
I'd be fine with this.
Quote
An oil crisis could be a catalyst.... to a world wide depression. If you want to be 'noble' start working around the clock for a solution instead of praying for a crisis that could cause a nationwide collapse. The infrastructure and technologies needed to be free of oil are not available... and a crisis of any kind would only set us back in making progress towards these goals.
We already have solutions, but since things aren't that bad there's no reason to implement them. We could bu oil independent in 5 years if it was absolutely necessary.
If the funding and the demand were there, the technologies would come (many of which are either developed, in development, or waiting for the money to be fully functional).
Your mindset only furthers the notion that the status quo doesn't work. Just like a forest fire (terrible) ends up rebuilding the ecosystem in which it happened (excellent), a crises of nationwide/worldwide proportion (terrible) would *probably* spur progress like we could only dream of.
Quote
We already have solutions, but since things aren't that bad there's no reason to implement them. We could bu oil independent in 5 years if it was absolutely necessary.
+1
I will not hope for that crisis. Crisis is what it is going to take even today with crisis a real possibility in out immediate future our Governor is looking to kill any mass transit he can.
A fuel crisis will severely damage my business and I employ 26 people whose jobs will be affected.
I will not hope for the crisis but we all new the writing was on the wall the day Reagan symbolically tore the solar panels off the White House. There will be no diversification of energy until there is a crisis. Hopefully we will never need to diversify because apparently it will take a crisis to change.
I am truly terrified of an oil catastrophe.
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:24:33 AM
Quote
We already have solutions, but since things aren't that bad there's no reason to implement them. We could bu oil independent in 5 years if it was absolutely necessary.
+1
And what are the solutions? What exists now that isn't being brought to market?
I'm sure most if not all of us are terrified. I hope my rhetoric does not suggest otherwise. That being said, and you said it yourself, 'the writing is on the wall'. It's not an if, but a when. Will it happen this generation or the next?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 10:29:29 AM
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:24:33 AM
Quote
We already have solutions, but since things aren't that bad there's no reason to implement them. We could bu oil independent in 5 years if it was absolutely necessary.
+1
And what are the solutions? What exists now that isn't being brought to market?
Solutions are all over the place. The problem is that we are born and raised to think supply and demand is some god given law. It's not--especially when corporations and the wealthy elite control the supply--and the demand is mainly fictitious. Most people don't have time to worry about changing the status quo (families to feed, businesses to run, bills to pay). There's really no incentive at the top of the system to institute these changes. If the oil is flowing, why change it?
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 10:29:29 AM
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:24:33 AM
Quote
We already have solutions, but since things aren't that bad there's no reason to implement them. We could bu oil independent in 5 years if it was absolutely necessary.
+1
And what are the solutions? What exists now that isn't being brought to market?
Solutions are all over the place. The problem is that we are born and raised to think supply and demand is some god given law. It's not--especially when corporations and the wealthy elite control the supply--and the demand is mainly fictitious. Most people don't have time to worry about changing the status quo (families to feed, businesses to run, bills to pay). There's really no incentive at the top of the system to institute these changes. If the oil is flowing, why change it?
Um how about some examples? How do we get milk from the cow to grocery store without oil?
How can I get from Los Angeles to NYC in a matter of hours with out oil? How will we manufacture the following products when the oil crisis hits?
Solvents
Diesel fuel
Motor Oil
Bearing Grease
Ink
Floor Wax
Ballpoint Pens
Football Cleats
Upholstery
Sweaters
Boats
Insecticides
Bicycle Tires
Sports Car Bodies
Nail Polish
Fishing lures
Dresses
Tires
Golf Bags
Perfumes
Cassettes
Dishwasher parts
Tool Boxes
Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet
Caulking
Petroleum Jelly
Transparent Tape
CD Player
Faucet Washers
Antiseptics
Clothesline
Curtains
Food Preservatives
Basketballs
Soap
Vitamin Capsules
Antihistamines
Purses
Shoes
Dashboards
Cortisone
Deodorant
Footballs
Putty
Dyes
Panty Hose
Refrigerant
Percolators
Life Jackets
Rubbing Alcohol
Linings
Skis
TV Cabinets
Shag Rugs
Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks
Car Battery Cases
Epoxy
Paint
Mops
Slacks
Insect Repellent
Oil Filters
Umbrellas
Yarn
Fertilizers
Hair Coloring
Roofing
Toilet Seats
Fishing Rods
Lipstick
Denture Adhesive
Linoleum
Ice Cube Trays
Synthetic Rubber
Speakers
Plastic Wood
Electric Blankets
Glycerin
Tennis Rackets
Rubber Cement
Fishing Boots
Dice
Nylon Rope
Candles
Trash Bags
House Paint
Water Pipes
Hand Lotion
Roller Skates
Surf Boards
Shampoo
Wheels
Paint Rollers
Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings
Luggage
Aspirin
Safety Glasses
Antifreeze
Football Helmets
Awnings
Eyeglasses
Clothes
Toothbrushes
Ice Chests
Footballs
Combs
CD's & DVD's
Paint Brushes
Detergents
Vaporizers
Balloons
Sun Glasses
Tents
Heart Valves
Crayons
Parachutes
Telephones
Enamel
Pillows
Dishes
Cameras
Anesthetics
Artificial Turf
Artificial limbs
Bandages
Dentures
Model Cars
Folding Doors
Hair Curlers
Cold cream
Movie film
Soft Contact lenses
Drinking Cups
Fan Belts
Car Enamel
Shaving Cream
Ammonia
Refrigerators
Golf Balls
Toothpaste
Gasoline
You're asking the wrong questions, and using the wrong premises. In that case, why bother?
Moreover, using oil for pens and bike tires is one thing. Using oil to fuel energy for 6 billion people is another. How about baby steps in the right direction?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 09:56:59 AM
Who doesn't know that oil isn't renewable. This notion that oil will increase to some outrageous magic number and poof the nation never uses another drop is retarded. Like all of sudden commuter rail lines sprout up - Boeing unveils their brand new 747 'Volt' Jet - the government hands out a Segway to every American.
Its not a magic number. Prices go up gradually, and people change their habits gradually. We already saw this in 2008 when prices peaked. Mass transit ridership was up and vehicles miles were down, some freight was switched from road to rail, American companies started moving some jobs back to America, and people started clamoring more for alternatives to gas transit. No one is proposing that when oil hits $200, HSR and advanced city infrastructure will fall out of the sky, but as the price of gas goes up, the alternatives get more and more attractive.
Friedman has been pushing the gas tax idea for a while, and I think its spot on. Gas-powered cars are not the future, we already know this. They are certainly the easiest, quickest, and cheapest way to get around right now, but they won't be forever. Yes, the market will eventually take care of the transition by itself when gas prices rise, but it won't do so gently. Raising the price of gasoline artificially (tax) will disincentive gas-powered cars now and give us an investment in the future (of course, the government will probably misuse the money, but thats a different story). What we absolutely DON'T want to do is what McCain proposed during the election: tap into our reserves to keep the price of gas down at the pump temporarily. That's just dumb (and bad for security and future growth).
Shwaz, I really hate that you made your post that long for no reason. Anyway, I think the things you listed are exactly the reason we should not be wasting oil on gasoline. I think plastics are much more important to our future (food, medical devices, space-age tech, and all the other things you listed so obnoxiously) than internal combustion engines. I think putting oil in our engines and lighting it on fire is horribly wasteful in comparison. As the price of gas goes up, the price for all those much more important things goes up. If we can chill out with the gas usage, we can stabilize the price of the others.
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 10:40:17 AM
You're asking the wrong questions, and using the wrong premises. In that case, why bother?
Moreover, using oil for pens and bike tires is one thing. Using oil to fuel energy for 6 billion people is another. How about baby steps in the right direction?
Baby steps?! We're talking about the great oil crisis of 2011! From what you've said here the solutions are ready to go it's just a matter of sparking the catalyst.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
I am truly terrified of an oil catastrophe.
None of us have any control over whether or not the 'crisis' occurs. But we all have control over how well we prepare for it. From what I can see, we have done nothing to prepare. We are no different than New Orleans waiting for Katrina. And I'm sure there will be plenty of blame to throw around if it ever does happen. But none of those fingers will be pointed back at ourselves for not being prepared.
To think that we can't survive without oil is ridiculous to me and shows a lack of faith in human ingenuity. I welcome the day that outside forces get us off our comfortable rear ends and get us back into the mindset of innovation as a means of survival.
When an oil crisis hits, nobody is going to care about football cleats, fishing rods, or curtains.
People will care about remaining employed and being able to get to and from work. Once we've dealt with the big issues, then we can worry about sports car bodies.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 24, 2011, 10:44:21 AM
Shwaz, I really hate that you made your post that long for no reason. Anyway, I think the things you listed are exactly the reason we should not be wasting oil on gasoline. I think plastics are much more important to our future (food, medical devices, space-age tech, and all the other things you listed so obnoxiously) than internal combustion engines. I think putting oil in our engines and lighting it on fire is horribly wasteful in comparison. As the price of gas goes up, the price for all those much more important things goes up. If we can chill out with the gas usage, we can stabilize the price of the others.
My apologies for asking questions, citing examples and looking for a direct answers. This is a deep discussion about mounting oil prices, possible solutions and the effects of a pricing crisis.
"Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half gallons of oil and more than
250 cubic feet of natural gas per day each! But, as shown here petroleum is not just used for fuel."
Hoping for a crisis to solve our dependence on oil is asinine because the long list of products I so obnoxiously listed will skyrocket and cripple our economy as a result.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 24, 2011, 10:47:28 AM
When an oil crisis hits, nobody is going to care about football cleats, fishing rods, or curtains.
People will care about remaining employed and being able to get to and from work. Once we've dealt with the big issues, then we can worry about sports car bodies.
Sure there are plenty of items on the list that are easily dismissible... but there are 100x more that are necessities. When families can't afford to put food on the table even while holding a job things won't be so easy to laugh off.
And for the record the workers who build and supply those football cleats & fishing rods will certainly care when their industry collapses.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 10:52:35 AM
Hoping for a crisis to solve our dependence on oil is asinine because the long list of products I so obnoxiously listed will skyrocket and cripple our economy as a result.
As long as we're in agreement that the list was obnoxious.
All I'm asking is what's more important to you: Sanitary food and medical care or filling up your gas tank so that you can commute to work instead of living close to it?
You do realize that both sanitary food and medical care will drastically increase in cost on account of an oil crisis, right?
When industries collapse people aren't going be able to just relocate their homes & families to be closer to the job that no longer exists.
Throw out some solutions and explain how they will be advanced along by a hypothetical oil crises.
Quote from: dougskiles on February 24, 2011, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
I am truly terrified of an oil catastrophe.
None of us have any control over whether or not the 'crisis' occurs. But we all have control over how well we prepare for it. From what I can see, we have done nothing to prepare. We are no different than New Orleans waiting for Katrina. And I'm sure there will be plenty of blame to throw around if it ever does happen. But none of those fingers will be pointed back at ourselves for not being prepared.
To think that we can't survive without oil is ridiculous to me and shows a lack of faith in human ingenuity. I welcome the day that outside forces get us off our comfortable rear ends and get us back into the mindset of innovation as a means of survival.
I am sure we can survive . I own a fleet of diesel trucks however and it's gonna be one hell of a pinch.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
You do realize that both sanitary food and medical care will drastically increase in cost on account of an oil crisis, right?
When industries collapse people aren't going be able to just relocate their homes & families to be closer to the job that no longer exists.
Throw out some solutions and explain how they will be advanced along by a hypothetical oil crises.
I agree with this. If an oil crises, how will people be able to sell the houses they live in now, and move closer to their job? Who will want that far away house? Even moving closer the ripple affect on food, utilities, clothes (ie the basics) with seriously cut into a person's spending power even if.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2011, 11:10:08 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on February 24, 2011, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
I am truly terrified of an oil catastrophe.
None of us have any control over whether or not the 'crisis' occurs. But we all have control over how well we prepare for it. From what I can see, we have done nothing to prepare. We are no different than New Orleans waiting for Katrina. And I'm sure there will be plenty of blame to throw around if it ever does happen. But none of those fingers will be pointed back at ourselves for not being prepared.
To think that we can't survive without oil is ridiculous to me and shows a lack of faith in human ingenuity. I welcome the day that outside forces get us off our comfortable rear ends and get us back into the mindset of innovation as a means of survival.
I am sure we can survive . I own a fleet of diesel trucks however and it's gonna be one hell of a pinch.
Yep... and the price increase will be passed along correct?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
You do realize that both sanitary food and medical care will drastically increase in cost on account of an oil crisis, right?
Hence the need to avoid the catastrophe by using less gas right?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
When industries collapse people aren't going be able to just relocate their homes & families to be closer to the job that no longer exists.
Gas WILL get prohibitively expensive at some point, this is obvious. Anyone with half a brain would be relocating already. And yes, prices in the burbs will drop (they already are).
How attractive is Jacksonville in an oil crisis? I would say not very.
It seems so ridiculous when you consider that 100 years ago Jacksonville was operating a zero emissions mass transit vehicle that could use coal, natural gas, hydroelectric, nuclear, etc. and yet today we just can't figure it out.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1195716117_kSshA-M.jpg)
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 24, 2011, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
You do realize that both sanitary food and medical care will drastically increase in cost on account of an oil crisis, right?
Hence the need to avoid the catastrophe by using less gas right?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
When industries collapse people aren't going be able to just relocate their homes & families to be closer to the job that no longer exists.
Gas WILL get prohibitively expensive at some point, this is obvious. Anyone with half a brain would be relocating already. And yes, prices in the burbs will drop (they already are).
A majority of this discussion was that a catastrophe is what is needed. I'm all for less dependence on oil and the cultivation of alternative renewable energies. I believe this is a common goal and these industries are driving for new technologies and innovations to accomplish the goal.
The industry I work (building materials) has made leaps & bounds progress towards energy efficiency. We're a nationwide company that sees the progress of local and federal stimulus through rebates & tax incentives for those that install everything from low water consumption faucets & toilets to hybrid water heaters.
However, I don't think currently there are many solutions available to get away from mass oil consumption. Mass transit isn't something offered in most communities. I believe we need to get started on the construction of these infrastructures now because it will take decades to complete in most places. Anyone with half a brain would see that a crisis of any sort that cripples our economy will impede our progress.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:52:05 AM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 24, 2011, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
You do realize that both sanitary food and medical care will drastically increase in cost on account of an oil crisis, right?
Hence the need to avoid the catastrophe by using less gas right?
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
When industries collapse people aren't going be able to just relocate their homes & families to be closer to the job that no longer exists.
Gas WILL get prohibitively expensive at some point, this is obvious. Anyone with half a brain would be relocating already. And yes, prices in the burbs will drop (they already are).
A majority of this discussion was that a catastrophe is what is needed. I'm all for less dependence on oil and the cultivation of alternative renewable energies. I believe this is a common goal and these industries are driving for new technologies and innovations to accomplish the goal.
The industry I work (building materials) has made leaps & bounds progress towards energy efficiency. We're a nationwide company that sees the progress of local and federal stimulus through rebates & tax incentives for those that install everything from low water consumption faucets & toilets to hybrid water heaters.
However, I don't think currently there are many solutions available to get away from mass oil consumption. Mass transit isn't something offered in most communities. I believe we need to get started on the construction of these infrastructures now because it will take decades to complete in most places. Anyone with half a brain would see that a crisis of any sort that cripples our economy will impede our progress.
Anyone know why the city didn't help jump start some green ideas and throw solar on top of LaVilla School of the Arts and the new courthouse? Looking down on those buildings when at work its amazing how much solar power opportunity is being lost.
$100 Bbl price point helped push us in to the "Great Recession" or whatever it is.
I know of two fairly well off folk who,as if by magic,stepped out of the stock market prior to the 'crash' - escalation to $100 Bbl the convincing driver.
Just one more episode thanks to being asleep for so long...............
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 24, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
It was 3.68 for 93o at the Shell on Roosevelt near the on-ramp this morning. I think it was 3.36 for regular.
Cell towers everywhere-and hard pressed to see any example of solar
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2011, 11:10:08 AM
I am sure we can survive . I own a fleet of diesel trucks however and it's gonna be one hell of a pinch.
I understand completely. For the last several years I have made my living off of designing suburban shopping centers and subdivisions. Which is why I am working hard to promote a more sustainable development pattern. I am seeing firsthand the desperation of those who are clinging to the past. It is time to move on.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 24, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
It was 3.68 for 93o at the Shell on Roosevelt near the on-ramp this morning. I think it was 3.36 for regular.
Inching closer to the revolution! psyched!!
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 24, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
It was 3.68 for 93o at the Shell on Roosevelt near the on-ramp this morning. I think it was 3.36 for regular.
Inching closer to the revolution! psyched!!
I know you're being sarcastic here, but jeez, am I the only one willing to go through hard times for the sake of not just American, but global sustainability?
You're comments throughout this discussion scream "myopic!"
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 24, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
It was 3.68 for 93o at the Shell on Roosevelt near the on-ramp this morning. I think it was 3.36 for regular.
Inching closer to the revolution! psyched!!
I know you're being sarcastic here, but jeez, am I the only one willing to go through hard times for the sake of not just American, but global sustainability?
You're comments throughout this discussion scream "myopic!"
Sure, if 'tough times' are the only way to reach an end goal of alternative energy... I just don't believe this is the only way. I think hoping for a global economic disaster to advance these technologies is beyond shortsighted... it's idiotic.
Not to mention people are and will die. If our President is smart... and I think he is... various battlegroups and Marine detachments are getting ready to rescue hostages, secure oilfields, etc...
viva la revolucion! :)
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: ben says on February 24, 2011, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 24, 2011, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 24, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
For all you silly uninformed people who still have, and need cars... keep your tank full. Early yesterday I filled up for $3.09 a gal.... same place this morning was $3.19... at noon today it was $3.29... :)
It was 3.68 for 93o at the Shell on Roosevelt near the on-ramp this morning. I think it was 3.36 for regular.
Inching closer to the revolution! psyched!!
I know you're being sarcastic here, but jeez, am I the only one willing to go through hard times for the sake of not just American, but global sustainability?
You're comments throughout this discussion scream "myopic!"
Sure, if 'tough times' are the only way to reach an end goal of alternative energy... I just don't believe this is the only way. I think hoping for a global economic disaster to advance these technologies is beyond shortsighted... it's idiotic.
Yes it is, but people as a collective normally don't get their asses in gear until its a full blown crisis. We've had ample time & opportunities to fix this, but we've let it go WAY past the point of no return.
I honestly dont see any other way.
I think that if our vehicle's odometers were replaced with cash register-like displays showing the dollar value of our gas consumption in real time it would be a huge shock to many, and might immediately do a few things:
1.) It would make us aware of how much disposable income is wasted in driving/commuting,
2.) We would consciously question when and why we drive, and reduce unnecessary trips,
3.) Would more urgently force alternatives to driving, such as non oil-reliant forms of public mass transit,
4.) Increase the value of neighborhoods located in higher proximity to work centers, including first-tier urban/suburban neighborhoods, and be a catalyst for the renewal of these areas.
Could it be likely that the cost of the auto-centric suburban development structure in Jacksonville will have a greater impact in (literally) driving the lower-middle class closer to poverty than any other social or economic factor?
Amen to that! ^^^
Quote from: Steve_Lovett on February 24, 2011, 03:36:35 PM
Could it be likely that the cost of the auto-centric suburban development structure in Jacksonville will have a greater impact in (literally) driving the lower-middle class closer to poverty than any other social or economic factor?
That would be a great irony - because it seems that they are the ones fighting the change more than any other group!
It did occur to me this morning that the $40/month that I spend on my bus pass could equate to a savings in the neighborhood of $240 this month.
I paid $50 for gas this morning and it didn't even top off the tank - 16 gallon tank, even, not one of the large ones.