QuoteScott Reconsidering High-Speed Rail
Governor Wants Less Risk For State
POSTED: Monday, February 21, 2011
UPDATED: 9:09 am EST February 21, 2011
ORLANDO, Fla. -- After a random run in with Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., at the Daytona 500, Gov. Rick Scott said he is reconsidering turning down federal money for a high-speed rail in Florida.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/26936726/detail.html (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/26936726/detail.html)
Scott said he is still skeptical because there is $300 million of the project that the federal government isn't paying for.
The governor announced last week that he planned to turn down funding for the high-speed rail, a move that baffled many Floridians and lawmakers because 90 percent of the project would be paid for with federal stimulus money.
The rail would run from Tampa to Orlando and then eventually to Miami and other large cities in the state.
Scott said he is willing to look at a plan that cuts down the financial risk to the state.
Nelson spoke out last week and said he would try to find away around Scott's decision and bring high-speed rail to Florida without him.
Scott and Nelson will appear together in Brevard County on Monday morning for a ribbon cutting ceremony at Melbourne International Airport.
I think we would be better off using the federal funds for erecting statues of Ronald Reagan at all public schools.
QuoteHigh-speed rail advocates say they have way to save project
By Alex Leary, Richard Danielson and Danny Valentine, Times Staff Writers
Posted: Feb 21, 2011 10:38 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/high-speed-rail-advocates-say-they-have-way-to-save-project/1152918 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/high-speed-rail-advocates-say-they-have-way-to-save-project/1152918)
TAMPA â€" High-speed rail advocates on Monday outlined a plan to form a partnership of local governments that would assume responsibility for the project Gov. Rick Scott says he does not want.
"We are working together to keep the high-speed rail plans alive in Florida and keep the thousands of jobs right here," U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, said during a 10 a.m. conference call.
On Sunday, Scott said he would be willing to look at a plan, but expressed doubts that it could alleviate any financial risk to taxpayers. The plan outlined Monday morning relies on state law allowing local governments to form coalitions.
Officials in Tampa, Orlando and Lakeland have expressed interest.
The group, technically known as a "non recourse entity," would become a subgrantee to the state and receive the $2.4 billion in federal funding then put the project out to bid.
Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio stressed it would be a "privatized" project that does not carry financial cost.
"There is a way clear here," she said. The state would have to grant the new entity the right of way along the Orlando-Tampa route, and provide technical expertise.
The idea would fail without Scott's approval and partnership from the state DOT, Tampa city attorney Chip Fletcher conceded.
Backers hope to have the plan before Scott in the next day or so.
Meanwhile, supporters of high-speed rail will rally Monday in Tampa in hopes of persuading Scott on the issue.
Former Tampa City Council member Linda Saul-Sena is helping organize a "Rally for High Speed Rail" in conjunction with the group Livable Tampa Roundtable. The rally is scheduled for noon at City Hall Plaza, at the southeast corner of East Kennedy Boulevard and Franklin Street.
U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, who extracted the small measure of openness from Scott at the Daytona 500 on Sunday, planned to press the governor again today at an event in Melbourne.
Quotelawyers from the U.S. Department of Transportation are on the way to convince Gov. Scott taxpayers won't be responsible for the money.
http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/february/210414/Sen.-Bill-Nelson-says-theres-still-hope-for-high-speed-rail
What a farce.........of course tricky ricky knows the state won't be responsible for the money........as in "cost over-runs or even repaying back the entire $2.4 billion if the system fails." That's total BS.
As I've said before........no amount of convincing with actual facts is going to sway PURE KOCH BROTHERS OIL IDEOLOGY.
My hope is that the bold statements that the State is not on the hook will back him into a corner. He will have stood up for the Tea Partiers and not look like a fool for turning down the investment in Florida. I do not hold much of that hope however.
BTW: If he secures more concrete assurances that Florida is protected from overruns I will concede his maneuver added some benefits for his constituency.
QuoteScott dismisses new high-speed rail assurances
MELBOURNE â€" Gov. Rick Scott Monday waved off efforts by supporters of high-speed rail to assure him that the $2.7-billion project would not cost Florida taxpayers any money, dismissing as "all these hypothetical's" promises that either private companies or the federal government would pay for any cost overruns.
"I am not convinced there is any plan that will get the taxpayers off the hook," Scott told reporters after meeting briefly with U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., at a new Embraer aircraft plant that will assemble executive jets here.
The governor also said he had still not decided on whether the state should go ahead with construction of the $1.2-billion SunRail commuter train in Central Florida. The project, which was approved in 2009, is still "under review," he said, adding he had no timetable on when he might decide.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-high-speed-rail-talks-20110221,0,2658301.story
Let's all beat the dead horse until the 25th when LaHood shuts it down or, for my personal enjoyment, extends the deadline so that we can see who else jumps through new hoops for the money.
I'm ALL for rail, but I honestly don't like the plan for two reasons. One, it doesnt really hit up a lot of the major destinations (the downtowns, the beaches, airports, etc). And two, these two cities don't have very good transit infrastructures to begin with.
Here's a good photo walk-through of what it would be like: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us
That doesn't sound appealing to me & kind of defeats the purpose of taking a train in the first place if I'm only going to need a car once I get there. I don't see how that's being useful, especially when the towns are so close together.
I personally think that connecting a bunch of cities that have bad transit in them is putting the cart before the horse. We've went so long in our country with letting our internal systems stagnate that trying to shoehorn HSR on top of that is going to be counterproductive IMO.
Meaning, the last thing I'd want to see is us all fighting to get this thing built just to see no one riding it. Then you could pretty much write off any notion of this being built out to serve the rest of FL (and probably kiss the rail movement goodbye in the country in general). I'd much rather see each city getting their acts together first with good transit systems, then trying to connect them all together.
^My thoughts exactly.
Orlando would have Sunrail, so it would have a fixed rail line to take riders into downtown, Winter Park and urban walkable spots in that city. Tampa's station would be in downtown and connected with BRT, streetcar and LRT (in the future). Most of these projects will be in place by the time HSR opens. Combine the proposed HSR infrastructure with local based commuter service and you have a decent start at implementing rail in Central Florida fairly quickly. When I get home i'll post some maps of the local systems that would connect with HSR.
Here are some graphics of the HSR route and other local transit systems in Tampa and Orlando that will be operational by the time HSR would have opened (2015). By 2015, you would be able to get around decent chuncks of these cities with various forms of frequent local mass transit services.
Proposed Florida HSR alignment
(http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00104/rail_104959d.jpg)
Long Range HSR plan
(http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss253/jpillinois/Train%20maps/6a00e551eea4f588340120a81c4c92970b.jpg)
Orlando HSR (blue line) /Sunrail commuter rail (orange/yellow lines)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-1/819131780_XqebM-L.jpg)
For those who think you'll need to rent a car to get around in Orlando in 2015 (the year both would be operational), think again.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-3/819131783_yhAgh-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-4/819131791_Uqk3W-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-7/819131766_BqTqp-L.jpg)
Sunrail map
(http://www.cfnews13.com/static/2010/SunRail.jpg)
Downtown Tampa's HSR station (at Marion Transit Center)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1096271159_9Rhzu-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1096271118_Vjzqa-M.jpg)
Downtown Tampa existing Streetcar and PCT routes
(http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/TECO-Streetcar.png)
Tampa's proposed BRT system
(http://www.hartline.org/departments/marketing/brt/brt.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on February 21, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
Orlando would have Sunrail, so it would have a fixed rail line to take riders into downtown, Winter Park and urban walkable spots in that city. Tampa's station would be in downtown and connected with BRT, streetcar and LRT (in the future). Most of these projects will be in place by the time HSR opens. Combine the proposed HSR infrastructure with local based commuter service and you have a decent start at implementing rail in Central Florida fairly quickly. When I get home i'll post some maps of the local systems that would connect with HSR.
Yeah, please do. I'd like to see what they're each planning & how well it would work with the HSR. Lakeland doing anything??
All I know is, if I were the Mayor of these towns & the HSR actually gets the go-ahead to be built, I'd pull out all the stops to get my city ready & connected. Streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, whatever. They have to make it a top priority, find the money & just do it or else the whole system won't work. And there is literally everything riding on this to work. We're sorta under the microscope of the entire nation.
Last time I heard, Lakeland was still fighting with Polk County over where their stop should be located. However, it appears the leading stop was at the USF Poly site, near the Polk Parkway and I-4. The plans for this area are to develop 5,000 acres around the station as a walkable edge city. Legoland (opening 15 miles south in Winter Haven this fall) was planning on having a dedicated shuttle move tourist between their new theme park and the Lakeland HSR station. Here are a few renderings of the Lakeland site:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/Williams-DRI-Colored.jpg)
This rendering was developed before Obama restarted Florida's HSR project. The USF Polytech HSR station would have been a part of the research park shown on this site layout. While the site is low rise, take note that all of the buildings face the street, while surface parking is placed in the middle of blocks. This layout is pretty similar to Disney's Celebration and Orlando's Baldwin Park. This development is now under construction.
Lakeland HSR station. Rendering doesn't acknowledge that it would be in the middle of a walkable community.
(http://www.metroplanorlando.com/images/m/high-speed-rail-station-rendering.jpg)
USF Polytechnical University rendering (image doesn't reflect walkable community to be built around it)
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KnDxLbaRY-k/0.jpg)
Quote from: peestandingup on February 21, 2011, 07:11:27 PM
I'm ALL for rail, but I honestly don't like the plan for two reasons. One, it doesnt really hit up a lot of the major destinations (the downtowns, the beaches, airports, etc). And two, these two cities don't have very good transit infrastructures to begin with.
Here's a good photo walk-through of what it would be like: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us
That doesn't sound appealing to me & kind of defeats the purpose of taking a train in the first place if I'm only going to need a car once I get there. I don't see how that's being useful, especially when the towns are so close together.
I personally think that connecting a bunch of cities that have bad transit in them is putting the cart before the horse. We've went so long in our country with letting our internal systems stagnate that trying to shoehorn HSR on top of that is going to be counterproductive IMO.
Meaning, the last thing I'd want to see is us all fighting to get this thing built just to see no one riding it. Then you could pretty much write off any notion of this being built out to serve the rest of FL (and probably kiss the rail movement goodbye in the country in general). I'd much rather see each city getting their acts together first with good transit systems, then trying to connect them all together.
(http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/44620/2728180920104969885S425x425Q85.jpg)
RED COACH LUXURY BUS - TODAY - ABOVE
A REAL FLORIDA PASSENGER RAIL ENTERPRISE - POSSIBLE TOMORROW MORNING - IF WE ONLY HAD A BRAIN
(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/26441/2379668820104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Provide a variety of services
coach - sightseeing - lounge
snack bar - full bar
business center
entertainment - live music - movies
gourmet meal services
choice of sleeping accommodations
singles
doubles
families
suites
...And if the trip takes one over a mealtime, THAT should be provided. Cocktail hour? Tea time? Late Night Munchies? AVAILABLE.
If it takes 10 hours to Atlanta, then it should be the most pleasant 10 traveling hours ever spent and from the study? ON TIME MEANS THE WHEELS STOP TURNING AT THE STATION PLATFORM WHEN THE SECOND HAND SWEEPS OVER THE 12. Just do that, and we wouldn't even be talking about Europe or Asia's "faster trains," faster maybe so, more comfortable? Not a chance, all we need to do is recall a bit of Americana and we'd blow them away.
Here is the article and I've merged the two together for clarity:QuoteStimulus Plan for Rail Line Shows System of Weak Links
FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL - A FAST TRAIN TO A SLOW BUS
By MICHAEL COOPER
Published: March 22, 2010
TAMPA â€" The drive from Orlando to Tampa takes only 90 minutes or so. Despite the short distance, the Obama administration awarded Florida $1.25 billion in stimulus money to link the cities with a fast train to help kick off its efforts to bring high-speed rail service to the United States.
Chip Litherland for The New York Times
The Florida train would indeed be high speed â€" as fast as 168 miles per hour. But because the trains would make five stops along the 84-mile route, the new service would shave only about half an hour off the trip.
QuoteAfter Florida won a $1.25 billion stimulus award to build a high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa, a little on-the-ground experimentation was called for. A recent test drive of the route took 82 minutes; the proposed train line has so many stops that it would only cut the trip to around 54 minutes. Odd bits of roadside Floridiana lined the drive, like these Airstream trailers planted off Interstate 4 by an intrepid R.V. dealer.
Given the meager half-hour time savings being promised, will people really leave their cars behind and ride the new trains, whose tracks will be built on the median of Interstate 4? One big problem would come when the train ride ended: Orlando and Tampa have few transit options, and are notoriously tough to navigate without cars. This brought to mind another experiment...
Time-pressed passengers may also find themselves frustrated at the end of their trip. Neither city is known for great public transportation, so travelers may discover that they have taken a fast train to a slow bus.
Proponents of high-speed rail worry that the new line, which is scheduled to be up and running in 2015, might hurt rather than help their cause, if it comes to be seen as little more than an expensive way to whisk tourists from Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World, which is slated to get its own stop.
QuoteThe goal was to use public transportation to get from downtown Tampa, near the proposed high-speed rail station, to the kind of sandy Gulf Coast beach that might lure tourists weary of inland Orlando's swimming pools and man-made lagoons. The starting point was the Marion Transit Center, a bus stop pictured here near the future train station.
10:20 a.m.: The trek began, when a 100X express bus left the transit center. The bus left on time, and was clean and air-conditioned. But it was not exactly speedy...
Even Representative John L. Mica, a Republican whose district in northeast Florida stops about 20 miles short of the proposed line, has questioned whether his state was the best choice to receive some of the $8 billion that was set aside in the stimulus act for high-speed rail.
Mr. Mica wondered if the notoriously congested Northeast corridor from Boston to New York to Washington, which was largely shut out of the pool of money, might have been a better choice.
“That would have the most dramatic impact, as far as a positive result for the country,†said Mr. Mica, who added that he was grateful for the investment in his home state.
State officials say they have been planning the route for decades and own most of the right of way needed for the tracks â€" a big selling point to the Obama administration, which saw it as the fastest and cheapest way to get a line up and running.
And Florida hopes that it would be only the first leg of a high-speed line that would eventually stretch south to Miami, linking several of the state’s tourism and business centers.
But it is unclear where the state will get the money to extend the train line. As it is, officials are uncertain where they would get the rest of the $2.6 billion that they believe is needed to build the Orlando to Tampa route.
Quote...and the scenery was sometimes less than tropical. Tampa is weighing an increase in the sales tax to pay for a new light-rail system, but construction could be years off. A retro streetcar currently runs from its convention center to the Cuban restaurants and cigar bars of Ybor City, but the tracks do not extend to the bus station or the proposed train station.
Supporters of high-speed rail often argue that it can be a way to lure passengers off airplanes. Orlando and Tampa are so close, however, that no airlines fly between them.
The drive took less than 82 minutes on a couple of recent test runs by a reporter; the train is expected to cover the same ground in 54 to 58 minutes.
Even the Florida project’s planners have acknowledged it would have a limited impact on traffic. An environmental impact statement issued in 2005 estimated that the train would draw 11 percent of the 4.5 million people who drive between Tampa and Orlando each year.
QuoteAlso on the 100X bus was Allana Strickland, 42, a carless tourist from Canada who was taking her daughter to the Salvador Dali Museum in St. Petersburg, less than 20 miles away. Their trip eventually took them more than two and a half hours, including a bout of motion sickness and an encounter with a panhandler at one stop who extolled the joys of wet T-shirt contests to them. "It's not as easy to get around here as it could be, for sure," Ms. Strickland said.
It also said the drivers who opted instead to ride the train “would not be sufficient to significantly improve†traffic flow on Interstate 4.
Tourists who try to use public transportation, rather than renting a car, may find themselves seeing sights they would rather avoid and missing some they would like to see. As the Frommer’s travel guide to Tampa advises, “Like most other Florida destinations, it’s virtually impossible to see Tampa’s major sights and enjoy its best restaurants without a car.â€
A couple of tourists from Chilliwack, British Columbia â€" Allana Strickland and her teenage daughter, Sarah McKenzie â€" learned this firsthand recently. When they took the public bus from Tampa to the Salvador Dali Museum in nearby St. Petersburg, a major draw in the region, they found themselves on a journey that lasted more than two and half hours to go less than 20 miles.
Quote11:41 a.m.: Time to switch to the third bus on the long trek to the beach. After nearly an hour on the express bus came a short wait at a mall, followed by a 20-minute ride on a local bus. The local bus made it here, to Williams Park in downtown St. Petersburg, where it was time to hop on this bus to St. Pete Beach. Another half-hour ride loomed.
“It’s not as easy to get around here as it could be, for sure,†Ms. Strickland said.
The Florida route was one of only two true high-speed rail projects â€" with trains capable of going more than 150 miles per hour, as is common in Europe and China â€" to win some of the $8 billion in high-speed rail money in the Stimulus Act that was awarded in January. (The Acela trains on the Northeast Corridor are capable of going 150 m.p.h., but average only around half that because they operate on crowded, curvy tracks.)
The other high-speed route is in California, which was awarded $2.25 billion, a small fraction of what it will need to build a rail line for trains that could travel from Los Angeles to San Francisco at speeds of up to 220 m.p.h.
The rest of the stimulus money was divided among 31 states, mostly to speed up existing train service by improving track and signal systems. Supporters see the Florida line as a hedge against future population growth and congestion.
Quote12:40 p.m.: The last bus of the day. After a 15-minute wait at a strip mall, the last bus of the trek, called the Suncoast Beach Trolley and painted to look like one, arrived for its trip north toward Clearwater Beach. The end was in sight.
“We believe it’s a mode for the future, and we have to start today,†said Nazih Haddad, the chief operating officer for the Florida Rail Enterprise, a division of the state’s Department of Transportation. He said ridership studies projected that the route would attract enough passengers to cover its operating costs.
But when America 2050, a planning group, ranked potential routes last year in a report called “Where High Speed Rail Works Best,†the Tampa to Orlando route did not even make the cut, because the group found that cities should be at least 100 miles apart to capture riders.
The planned route from Tampa through Orlando to Miami did make the list, though: it was ranked 100th among potential routes in the United States.
If the project is built but is not successful, it could make it harder for other high-speed rail projects to get money in the future. Florida knows about that possibility firsthand: its voters once passed a constitutional amendment requiring the state to build a high-speed rail system, only to repeal it later over cost concerns.
Quote12:50 p.m.: Success! The public beach at Treasure Island. It took two and a half hours on four buses to get there. But a wide sandy beach now beckoned, with volleyball players, kite fliers, and signs advising swimmers to "Shuffle Your Feet For Stingrays." Not to mention a nice fried grouper sandwich at a nearby beachfront restaurant, Sloppy Joe's.
As it stands, the proposed route does not have the easiest connections. It would go to downtown Tampa, but not to Tampa’s airport. It would go to Orlando’s airport, but not to downtown Orlando.
Orlando is planning to build a commuter rail system, but the current plans do not connect it to the proposed high-speed rail line. Tampa is debating a new light rail system, but construction could be years off.
In the short term, experts predict that up to a third of the train’s ridership would be for the 19-mile trip between the Orlando airport and Walt Disney World, which has agreed to donate land for a stop.
A recent visit to the Tomorrowland Transit Authority, a retro-futuristic people mover in the Magic Kingdom, shows the enduring pull of car culture in Florida: a sign at the station announces that it is presented by Alamo, the car rental company.
QuoteAt the beach, two young tourists from Nova Scotia, Julia Acott, 11, left, and Gabrielle Bezanson, 12, were making sand angels. Then it was time to go back to Tampa. This time a taxi seemed like a good idea. The return trip took only 39 minutes. But the meter was $72, not counting tip. The upshot? If tourists take the high-speed train to Tampa, they may well want to rent cars to get around the Tampa region.
SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=us
SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/us/23train.html
SORT OF SAYS IT ALL DOESN'T IT?OCKLAWAHA
(http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/45836/2218626770104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
SHALL WE POST PHOTOS OF THE STATION LOCATIONS FOR EVERY STOP? BECAUSE SOME ARE WORSE!
So you just walked 5 miles up an empty highway to the Polk County Rail Station, next stop OIA because you have to be at the Orena in time for the big game!
Your dazzled by the station location in the middle of I-4... and you look at the progressive state to the:(http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/47655/2199122700104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
NORTH
(http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/23614/2038179930104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
SOUTH
(http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/44780/2801585520104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
EAST
(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/42760/2094377480104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
AND WEST!
(http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/45440/2205660760104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
(http://ipad.ph/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hitchhiker47-2.jpg)
If the USF Poly site is chosen, its really the only one (in Polk County) along the route that has a pretty good chance a major TOD opportunities. It will be anchored with a full blown university. Assuming a Polk resident wanted to go to DT Orlando, they just transfer to Sunrail at Orlando's airport or take Amtrak in. You can see the Sunrail connection on this map.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-1/819131780_XqebM-L.jpg)
However, I'd shoot for a modified style of system that creates more local stations along the route to make it appeal to a larger population. I'd shoot for something like this, while allowing the project to be bid on by the private sector before outright giving $2.4 billion to another state.
Ock, I agree with about everything you've said. I think the administration & everyone involved with this needs to REALLY study these towns & compare them to the towns where HSR actually works. They're jumping the gun big time IMO. The "By God, if China & Europe can do it, so can we!" mentality isn't really applicable to us just yet. So Obama needs to slow his roll a bit & think about this. Hell, just come down here & take a drive through to see what it would be like for the average rider to get to these destinations.
Like I said earlier, a lot of the US is simply set up & designed AROUND the car. We've let it go for decades like this, so just slapping a HSR on top of an already car-centric infrastructure isn't the way. Yeah sure, it can/does work in the Northeast & some of the West, but most of those towns were setup & continued to be built around pedestrians, are more condensed, have good solid transit systems, etc. We obviously don't do that down here (and most of the country). Sure, we DID do that back in the day around these parts, but that's long gone now & replaced with a bunch of uncontrolled/unnecessary sprawl.
So this is a big problem that's going to need careful & aggressive planning. I personally think they need to take more of a "master plan" approach to this if they truly want it to succeed. Give that money to each of these towns to build their own transit systems, with the explicit INTENTION of following it up with connectivity via HSR. They could do it all in less than 10 years if they really wanted to.
HSR is really the final piece of this puzzle, but they wanna make it the first.
Here is where I disagree. We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way. This is not the case. With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis. For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.
Nevertheless, looking at most comments made on MJ, it seems the most of the fuss here is about Florida's HSR plan, with little regard to what communities around the state are doing to improve their local networks and how they tie into them. In reality, most of these cities have pretty decent plans on improving their mass transit systems in the short term and are working to ensure the proper connections are in place.
As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far. However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here. Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so. That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.
Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax. Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together. Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next. When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.
I hear what you're saying. And I agree that they have it more together than we do, but that's not saying much (we're colossally bad here). I just don't see it being nearly enough to support HSR at this point. If they're each truly moving forward aggressively to solve this, then that's one thing. But they're all separate entities, have different mayors, different mindsets, etc. Meaning, I'm not sure how much I'd bank on each of these things actually getting done. You know as well as I do how many times plans like these go up in smoke. All it takes is a new mayor or some budget crises in one of these towns & the whole thing could become pretty unusable.
If this is all we got then its all we got, I just think its a bad way to go about it & dont want to see it fail because of shortsightedness & failure to look at the bigger picture.
^In Jax, there may not be support. However, there is a ton of support in the rest of the state. They actually are starting to get it down there. From my understanding, their (the local governments and USDOT) goal is to create a separate authority to see HSR through but it doesn't appear Scott (State) will give them an opportunity.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2011, 12:45:52 PM
^In Jax, there may not be support. However, there is a ton of support in the rest of the state. They actually are starting to get it down there. From my understanding, their (the local governments and USDOT) goal is to create a separate authority to see HSR through but it doesn't appear Scott (State) will give them an opportunity.
Ugh, it figures. That SOB is determined to kill this thing somehow. He needs to go if we ever wanna truly get this done the right way.
State law allows 2 (or more) local governments to create a regional authority....Tampa and Orlando have pretty much agreed to do so and Lakeland has also voiced support.
In the end, they need Scott's "approval" because the ROW along I-4 and the Beachline is owned by FDOT
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2011, 12:02:07 PM
As mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far. However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here. Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so. That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.
Btw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax. Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together. Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next. When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.
Excellent piece for an Op/Ed in the Florida Times Union! Go for it lakelander!!!!!
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2011, 12:02:07 PM
Here is where I disagree. We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way. This is not the case. With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis. For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.
But Jax inaction doesn't mean that Polk County buying a city bus or two is a game changer... Not for them and not for us. QuoteNevertheless, looking at most comments made on MJ, it seems the most of the fuss here is about Florida's HSR plan, with little regard to what communities around the state are doing to improve their local networks and how they tie into them. In reality, most of these cities have pretty decent plans on improving their mass transit systems in the short term and are working to ensure the proper connections are in place.
When your trains only run every hour (as planned in Florida West of Disney) then calculating an average wait time of 30 minutes, so anyone boarding the super fast train, can expect a trip length from OIA to TAMPA of 80 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes.
The same trip via I-4 is 85.4 miles long and will take 86 minutes, or 1 hour and 26 minutes. Thus the automobile is safely to say, within 6 minutes of the HSR trip time. Worse still, in order to beat the automobiles time, one would have to assume that you could get from WHERE-EVER in the metro, to OIA, park and/or leave the bus side of the terminal and walk into the train station within 6 minutes! I think even Faye could see the stupidity in thinking this will succeed. So for all of the Billions thrown at this alignment we end up with a negative or deficit effect on the travel time. QuoteAs mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far. However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here. Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so. That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.
There is simply no amount of buses, or metros, anywhere that can make this railroad route work as a HSR line. Just one more reason that Florida's plan wasn't in the top 100 "likely" projects. The real downfall of this plan is the fixation on Orlando and it's Airport as key to railroad success and as long as it remains central in their planning, we might as well be building it in ANGOLA (except that Angola likely has better transit).
In order to succeed in Florida with HSR, we need to be looking at two key things - long-haul segments and urban density segments. For example under Long-Haul, we might co-op with Georgia on an Atlanta-Jax-Miami route, or extend the NYC-WASH-Savannah-Jax Southeast HSR project to Orlando and on to Tampa, but only as the terminal segment of a much longer haul. Orlando-Tampa can't stand alone, and adding Miami by way of Orlando simply creates more short segments that will fail.
Ideally from from JACKSONVILLE to ORLANDO and TAMPA as well as TAMPA to MIAMI, the solution should be much more like an extended SUNRAIL or TRIRAIL service that ties back into Amtrak and HSR at either MIAMI or JACKSONVILLE. QuoteBtw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax. Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together. Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next. When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.
The JAXPORT pieces will come together with or without HSR or SUNRAIL. The Post Panamax era, national interests, defense and port momentum will force the fix at JAXPORT. Add the Mobility Plan, and it is possible that JACKSONVILLE sleeps through the storm and comes out on top. Other projects canceled and broken by Scott and Jacksonville self financing success.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 22, 2011, 08:14:26 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2011, 12:02:07 PM
Here is where I disagree. We get used to Jax's inaction on these topics and sometime assume that every other municipality treats these issues the same exact way. This is not the case. With every HSR corridor, we need to look at their implementation on a case-by-case basis. For example, in many places the local transit network is already in place (ex. California, Midwest, etc.), meaning establishing high speed connections between regional metropolitan areas a logical move.
But Jax inaction doesn't mean that Polk County buying a city bus or two is a game changer... Not for them and not for us.
No, but Jax residents need to know all the details before outright assuming that these other municipalities aren't working hard to improve their local mass transit operations before (what appears to now be two dead rail projects) comes online.
QuoteWhen your trains only run every hour (as planned in Florida West of Disney) then calculating an average wait time of 30 minutes, so anyone boarding the super fast train, can expect a trip length from OIA to TAMPA of 80 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes.
The same trip via I-4 is 85.4 miles long and will take 86 minutes, or 1 hour and 26 minutes. Thus the automobile is safely to say, within 6 minutes of the HSR trip time. Worse still, in order to beat the automobiles time, one would have to assume that you could get from WHERE-EVER in the metro, to OIA, park and/or leave the bus side of the terminal and walk into the train station within 6 minutes! I think even Faye could see the stupidity in thinking this will succeed. So for all of the Billions thrown at this alignment we end up with a negative or deficit effect on the travel time.
Your statement makes the assumption that the majority of riders will be going from end point to end point. That's not the I-4 travel pattern. Never has, never will be. This is where I believe it makes sense to turn the project over to the private sector and let them vet things out before giving up a chance for $2.4 billion. If given a chance, we may discover that modifications can be made within the existing program to improve its feasibility. Outright dismissing before turning it over to rail industry professionals, gets us no where on any level.
QuoteQuoteAs mentioned several times in the past, I'm not a real fan of how Florida's HSR plan has been drawn up so far. However, I do believe the decision to seek private sector financial involvement will lead to modifications that will resolve most of the complaints mentioned here. Unfortunately, our governor doesn't even want to allow this bidding process to take place (I personally think he's scared a group would actually step up and make it work), meaning we're setting ourselves up at losing a HUGE opportunity that most likely won't be back for another decade or so. That's a chance that if I had any real say in the discussion, I would not be willing to take.
There is simply no amount of buses, or metros, anywhere that can make this railroad route work as a HSR line. Just one more reason that Florida's plan wasn't in the top 100 "likely" projects. The real downfall of this plan is the fixation on Orlando and it's Airport as key to railroad success and as long as it remains central in their planning, we might as well be building it in ANGOLA (except that Angola likely has better transit).
Maybe it works better as a conventional line with HSR being in the form of express and commuter as local? Why not put it out to bid and see what the private sector thinks about it and potential modifications? If it doesn't work, it won't be built.
QuoteIn order to succeed in Florida with HSR, we need to be looking at two key things - long-haul segments and urban density segments. For example under Long-Haul, we might co-op with Georgia on an Atlanta-Jax-Miami route, or extend the NYC-WASH-Savannah-Jax Southeast HSR project to Orlando and on to Tampa, but only as the terminal segment of a much longer haul. Orlando-Tampa can't stand alone, and adding Miami by way of Orlando simply creates more short segments that will fail.
I don't see why planning like this can't take place without giving up access to the $2.4 billion.
QuoteIdeally from from JACKSONVILLE to ORLANDO and TAMPA as well as TAMPA to MIAMI, the solution should be much more like an extended SUNRAIL or TRIRAIL service that ties back into Amtrak and HSR at either MIAMI or JACKSONVILLE.
Amtrak happens to be one of the entities wanting a chance at developing this corridor. Again, there is no reason why long term planning can't incorporate some of the concepts without immediately throwing out the baby ($2.4 billion) with the bathwater (Tampa/Orlando HSR link as planned).
QuoteQuoteBtw, this fallout is going to hurt Jax. Don't forget, all of these projects are tied together. Sunrail would have never been approved if not for the State's desire to get HSR money. With HSR gone, smart money is that Sunrail will be next. When it goes, so goes the money to fix JAXPORT's rail capacity issues and the opportunity to connect DT with Clay County via commuter rail on the A-line.
The JAXPORT pieces will come together with or without HSR or SUNRAIL. The Post Panamax era, national interests, defense and port momentum will force the fix at JAXPORT. Add the Mobility Plan, and it is possible that JACKSONVILLE sleeps through the storm and comes out on top. Other projects canceled and broken by Scott and Jacksonville self financing success.
[/quote]
The Mobility Plan won't do much, if anything for JAXPORT in the next 20 years (assuming Scott doesn't kill the concept of concurrency period). None of the initial 10-year CIE projects are directly JAXPORT related. With that said, perhaps all of JAXPORT's pieces will come together. However, it could be in 2035 or 2050, instead of 2015 or 2020. History has proven we're good at completely missing the boat when the opportunity presents itself. You can look no further than your skyway/streetcar experience of the 1970s/80s or JTA's mishandling of the BJP $100 million. With each, delay and throw the baby out with bathwater move, we fall a little more behind our peers. It appears, we're about to blow another opportunity.
QuoteFla. high-speed rail plan gets another reprieve
The Associated Press
Friday, February 25, 2011; 2:35 PM
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A proposed high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando in Florida has gotten another reprieve.
U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has given Florida Gov. Rick Scott another week to reconsider his decision to turn down $2.4 billion in federal money for the project after the two met Friday in Washington, D.C.
LaHood said he gave Scott additional time after the governor asked for more information about a revised plan.
Scott refused the original federal offer because he was afraid the state would be stuck with billions in unexpected costs.
The governor also rejected the revised plan for absolving the state of financial or legal obligation by turning the project over to local governments, but now he'll take another look.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022504430.html
Does it take an energy crisis for him to reconsider this plan..?
I personally think Rick "Dick-Head" Scott has too much power as a Governor of Florida in terms of making decisions that affects the growth. This is a backlash to the idea of independent local governments trying to organize and improve their development in their own backyard.
-Josh
I think he is feeling intense pressure from his fellow republicans.
I hope so, because even Republicans wont turn away $2.4 billion...
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 25, 2011, 04:44:19 PM
I think he is feeling intense pressure from his fellow republicans.
Yep, he's pissed off a lot of people in Tally, Tampa, Orlando, and areas in between along the route and those that want it expanded in the future/