Metro Jacksonville

Here is a good article I ran across today while in Central Florida.  There is a lot of confusion regarding Florida's HSR plan with discussion board members here, so this may answer some questions.

QuoteThere is much confusion over Rick Scott's decision to derail high-speed rail. I will now clear up the confusion by compiling questions and comments guaranteed to anger both sides.

Q. Why build it?

A. It would go really fast and be really cool. The feds are paying for 90 percent of it. Private contractors might pay the rest. The Middle East tyrants we set up to protect our oil are getting bounced. Interstate 4 is congested. One day the train could run to Miami, giving Florida a leg up in 21st-century economy and providing a quick ride to South Beach.

Q. Why not build it?

A. History teaches us that all trains not going to New York are budget-busting dogs. I could drive to Tampa faster and five times cheaper. The savings quadruple if I bring my wife and kids. I would have to buy four tickets to bring them on the train, whereas they ride free in the car. Taking the Prius, we bring a carafe of Starbucks, listen to NPR, let the kids fight over the iPad, drive right to our destination and get there on a gallon and a half of gas.

Q. How many people would ride the train?

A. The latest estimate is about 3 million people a year. Whoever conjured that number up smoked a big fat doobie first.

Q. So, death to the train!

A. Maybe. Do the past and present dictate the future? We love our cars now. But oil prices are only going up long-term, with critical shortages a real possibility in the future. Maybe electric and hydrogen cars will keep us on the road. But even then, you can only widen the roads so much. So what we have is a gamble on what the future will bring. Given that the money is on the table now, do we therefore grab it?

Q. What is our financial risk?

A. The train is estimated at $2.7 billion, with the feds kicking in $2.4 billion. That leaves us with $300 million. But there are big international consortia lined up to build and operate the train. They might agree to cover our cost and cover all overruns for the next 20 or 30 years.

Q. Why would they do that?

A. This would get their foot in the door on high-speed rail, setting them up for much more lucrative routes in the future if this technology takes off. Taking a loss on Orlando might be an acceptable risk given potential profits down the road. Also, the biggest cost of running a train is making the mortgage payment. This one would be paid for.

Q. So what are they offering?

A. Scott pulled the plug before the bidding began. This puzzled even former Gov. Jeb Bush. Even if you are skeptical about a deal, you still want all information and options on the table before making a decision.

Q. But Scott said Florida was at risk for billions, didn't he?

A. He apparently did not believe that the state could be protected from cost overruns. That's certainly true in dealing with private companies, which always can find a way to bail on contracts. But the feds have hinted they would cover our losses. It could be Scott killed the train now before he was hit with a deal too good to turn down.

Q. Why do that?

A. I'm guessing he thought the project was a dog all along. And dressing it up with studies, contracts, guarantees and sweeteners wasn't going to change that. This also plays well with Scott's tea-party supporters and gains him national attention.

Q. But we can't afford to build trains when we are $14 trillion in debt!!!

A. Hard to argue with that one. The problem is that, though this is an ideological victory, is it not a practical one. The feds will simply give the money to California and New York to build their trains. So the $2.4 billion still will be added to the debt whether we get the train or not. Do we blow off that kind of money simply on principle, even if it's a noble one?

Q. Is the train dead?

Senate President Mike Haridopolos and House Speaker Dean Cannon both backed the train in 2009 but now support Scott. They're flopping like mullet in the bottom of the boat. Haridopolos is running for the U.S. Senate and doesn't want to look soft on spending. I assume Cannon is circling the wagons around SunRail. So the state is done with trains.

Q. Is it Rep. John Mica to the rescue?

Mica wants to dump Tampa and run trains from the Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center and Disney. So our cutting-edge transportation system of tomorrow becomes a tourism shuttle. And Disney already has one, its Magical Express bus. Unless Mickey gives that up, and it has shown no inclination to do that, the train to Disney might have no more riders than a train to Tampa.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-mike-thomas-rail-questions-022011-20110219,0,4230865.column

And some additional consideration that involves American Pride:

QuoteChina leads the world with upwards of 2,800 miles of high speed rail lines in operation and another 5,500 miles planned. Spain, France and Japan each have around 1,200 miles in operation; Germany has 800 miles and Italy has 577. The U.S. has only 226 miles in operation currently.

The Obama administration would like to see Americans riding on more than 16,000 miles of high speed rail lines by the middle of the century.

http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Environment_380/Rail.shtml

Do we want to be left behind as the most regressive nation in the world?

Some project will be built.  It just won't happen in Florida if things don't change by the 25th.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 09:32:06 PM
Some project will be built.  It just won't happen in Florida if things don't change by the 25th.

Yeah, as always it will be California and other Democratic states leading the way creating economic activity that Republican states only dream about.

After booing Rick Scott today at the Daytona 500, I had to explain why his "veto" of HSR was a bad thing...after telling the folks around me that the private sector has shown interest in funding the remaining costs and taking on the ridership/revenue risks, they also thought it was a no-brainer....conveniently, Mr. Scott left that "little tidbit out of his announcement, which is the only reason he gets the support he does on this issue.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2011, 10:43:24 PM
After booing Rick Scott today at the Daytona 500, I had to explain why his "veto" of HSR was a bad thing...after telling the folks around me that the private sector has shown interest in funding the remaining costs and taking on the ridership/revenue risks, they also thought it was a no-btainer....conveniently, Mr. Scott left that "little tidbit out of his announcement, which is the only reason he gets the support he does on this issue.

tufsu1, I will admit that I expected Scott to accept the federal HSR monies just like you did. I think we both thought he was going to posture, by "waiting for reports" just to let his base know he was being "careful" about spending, but in the end I thought he would come through for Florida, rather than cater to less than 10% percent of Floridians ( if there even are that many so-called tea party folks in FL)

The tea party has been heavily funded by the Koch Brothers and is the (Murdoch) media darling:

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions

Feb. 18 2011 - 6:45 pm
By RICK UNGAR

As the nation focuses on the efforts of Governor Scott Walker to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees in Wisconsin, new information is coming to light that reveals what is truly going on here.

Mother Jones is reporting that much of the funding behind the Walker for Governor campaign came from none other than uber-conservatives, the infamous Koch Brothers.

What’s more, the plan to kill the unions is right out of the Koch Brothers play book.

Koch-backed groups like Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the Reason Foundation have long taken a very antagonistic view toward public-sector unions. Several of these groups have urged the eradication of these unions. The Kochs also invited Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, an anti-union outfit, to a June 2010 confab in Aspen, Colorado;

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/

QuoteThe fat-cat, Tea Party-funding Koch Brothers have made a $1 million dollar contribution to supporters of California’s Proposition 23, which would block climate change legislation passed in 2006. The law requires companies to cut their greenhouse gas emissions down to 1990 levels over the next decade. Prop 23 seeks to suspend this law until statewide unemployment drops below 5.5% for four consecutive quarters, something which has only happened three times in the last three decades.

http://veracitystew.com/2010/09/04/tea-party-funding-koch-brothers-contribute-one-million-to-california-campaign/

So lets connect the dots.......Koch brother are heavy funders of everthing tea party.

The Koch brothers hate unions and they hate climate change solutions, so they HATE HSR, and Scott does their bidding, because the tea party is his base.

AND most importantly they are old fashioned OIL BARONS:

QuoteTheir agenda opposes all environmental laws, after all they are in the oil business. It also opposes Social Security, Medicare and all forms of government regulation. These guys are so right wing that William F. Buckley called their agenda, "Anarcho-totalitarianism."

How many Tea Party types know that they are merely tools being used by big corporate interests to further those corporate interests? I'll bet very few.

Most of these folks think that they are part of an independent groundswell of popular unrest. They're not. They're just weak minded tools. They've never asked about who paid for all those rallies.

Well, I hate to burst their bubble, but it was the Koch brothers who have funded their "movement." That doesn't mean they won't have some success. After all, Americans have become increasingly prone to being convinced by advertising and slick public relations campaigns.

Someday, hopefully soon, they will wake up and realize that the cry to "Take back our country" really means that the Koch brothers want to take our country away from us.

http://www.naplesnews.com/blogs/world-according-me/2010/sep/05/teapartydupes/

From the New York Times:

Quote
China Rail Chief’s Firing Hints at Trouble
By MICHAEL WINES and KEITH BRADSHER
Published: February 17, 2011
BEIJING â€" In his seven years as chief of the Chinese Railways Ministry, Liu Zhijun built a commercial and political colossus that spanned continents and elevated the lowly train to a national symbol of pride and technological prowess.

His abrupt sacking by the Communist Party is casting that empire in a decidedly different light, raising doubts not only about Mr. Liu’s stewardship and the corruption that dogs China’s vast public-works projects, but also, perhaps, the safety, financial soundness and long-term viability of a rail system that has captured the world’s attention.

Whole article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=all)

Quote from: FayeforCure on February 20, 2011, 09:19:40 PM
And some additional consideration that involves American Pride:

QuoteChina leads the world with upwards of 2,800 miles of high speed rail lines in operation and another 5,500 miles planned. Spain, France and Japan each have around 1,200 miles in operation; Germany has 800 miles and Italy has 577. The U.S. has only 226 miles in operation currently.

The Obama administration would like to see Americans riding on more than 16,000 miles of high speed rail lines by the middle of the century.

http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Environment_380/Rail.shtml

Do we want to be left behind as the most regressive nation in the world?

Wow dude.  Really?  Millions of people all over the Middle East rising up against the decades-long repression of their tyrant leaders, women still getting stoned to death in Iran, female mutilation in African countries, and yet *we're* the most regressive nation on the planet?

Huh...

From mountainviewpatch.com (CA):

Quote
New Bill Would Oust High-Speed Rail Board

Sen. Lowenthal says rail board members have acted in 'their own self-interest.'
By Aaron Selverston | Email the author | February 20, 2011
All nine board members of the controversial California High-Speed Rail Authority may have to find new jobs if a bill introduced Friday by state Sen. Alan Lowenthal (D-Long Beach) is signed into law.

The bill, SB 517, would disband the beleaguered group and replace it with members who have specific expertise, and who agree to new ethical requirements and are subject to more administrative accountability.

QuoteLowenthal hopes that the bill, if passed, will help restore faith in the $43 billion project among Peninsula residents.

“Up until now, people on the Peninsula thought the high-speed rail authority acted in an arrogant manner by coming in and telling people what was gonna happen,” he said. “Decisions were made to meet the needs of the high-speed rail decision makers.”

In addition to chairing the Senate Tranportation Committee, Lowenthal will next week be sworn in as the chairman of the new Senate Select Committee on High Speed Rail.

"I’m looking forward to holding more oversight hearings," he said. "We don’t want decisions made that are based on peoples’ own self-interest."

Lowenthal said he felt the decision to award the first chunk of construction dollars to the Central Valley, for example, was motivated less by good data and more by politics.

"I think the push to make sure we began in the Central Valley was not done because of ridership numbers," he said, "it was done based on pressure from either people who lived in the valley or people who represent the valley."

The sensitivity around those kinds of decisions has in part fueled anti-rail groups such as the Community Coalition on High-Speed Rail and Don't Railroad Us, which organized the "High Speed Boondoggle" rally in November. Numerous Palo Alto council members attended that rally.

"I don’t refer to it as a boondoggle," said Lowenthal, "but I sure as heck wanna see a real business plan that’s been developed by people that have real expertise in the area."

Whole article here: http://mountainview.patch.com/articles/new-bill-would-oust-high-speed-rail-board-2 (http://mountainview.patch.com/articles/new-bill-would-oust-high-speed-rail-board-2)

Ok she used a little Hyperbole, you get the point it is regressive the state of public passenger transit in this country.  Especially given the rail infrastructure we have in place as you point out Ock.

Quote from: Doctor_K on February 21, 2011, 09:41:20 AM

Quote from: FayeforCure on February 20, 2011, 09:19:40 PM
And some additional consideration that involves American Pride:

QuoteChina leads the world with upwards of 2,800 miles of high speed rail lines in operation and another 5,500 miles planned. Spain, France and Japan each have around 1,200 miles in operation; Germany has 800 miles and Italy has 577. The U.S. has only 226 miles in operation currently.

The Obama administration would like to see Americans riding on more than 16,000 miles of high speed rail lines by the middle of the century.

http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Environment_380/Rail.shtml

Do we want to be left behind as the most regressive nation in the world?

Wow dude.  Really?  Millions of people all over the Middle East rising up against the decades-long repression of their tyrant leaders, women still getting stoned to death in Iran, female mutilation in African countries, and yet *we're* the most regressive nation on the planet?

Huh...

Faye and GG are two of a kind... lol

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Here is a good article I ran across today while in Central Florida.  There is a lot of confusion regarding Florida's HSR plan with discussion board members here, so this may answer some questions.

Quote.

Q. Why build it?

A. It would go really fast and be really cool. The feds are paying for 90 percent of it. Private contractors might pay the rest. The Middle East tyrants we set up to protect our oil are getting bounced. Interstate 4 is congested. One day the train could run to Miami, giving Florida a leg up in 21st-century economy and providing a quick ride to South Beach.

Any Billion + dollar project that is built because "It would go really fast and be really cool," should be automatically disqualified from EVER being considered again.

The Feds are paying for it and private contractors MIGHT PAY the rest? Really? Might? So you board an untested airplane and the captain comes on and says, "Some of us MIGHT make it to the destination..."

Explain in detail how this Florida project or all of the HSR projects combined would make even a dent in the Middle Eastern tyrants? They won't, trains have not, can not and will not relieve traffic, all they can offer is a choice.

I-4 is congested? Yep today, and after the HSR it will be the same way... TRAINS DON'T SOLVE AUTO TRAFFIC PROBLEMS. Moreover if the train doesn't serve the point of origin or destination of those cars, it will do even less.

"One day the train could run to Miami..." And one day Jacksonville COULD be destroyed in a rare pygmy armadillo stampede.

A leg up on the 21st Century Economy? Why? Because we can ride to SOUTH BEACH? Yeah, that ought to teach those rascally Republican hatemongers.

QuoteQ. Why not build it?

A. History teaches us that all trains not going to New York are budget-busting dogs. I could drive to Tampa faster and five times cheaper. The savings quadruple if I bring my wife and kids. I would have to buy four tickets to bring them on the train, whereas they ride free in the car. Taking the Prius, we bring a carafe of Starbucks, listen to NPR, let the kids fight over the iPad, drive right to our destination and get there on a gallon and a half of gas.

"History teaches us that all trains not going to New York are budget-busting dogs." Then you need a serious revision of your history book, because this is wrong.

"I could drive to Tampa faster and five times cheaper." Which is why this thing fails from the get-go.

"The savings quadruple if I bring my wife and kids. I would have to buy four tickets to bring them on the train, whereas they ride free in the car." Which is the main reason this train does NOTHING for Floridian's or I-4.

"drive right to our destination and get there on a gallon and a half of gas." Therein is why it doesn't even work for our tourists, it does not and cannot possibly deliver a vacationing family to a broad spectrum of parks, hotels, resorts and/or beaches. Florida's intrastate bus and non-existent Light Rail, Metros, or BRT guarantee that nobody that rides these trains can get far from the station without their own car... "HSR? Forget it! Hello Avis..."

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, half of the guy's answers are satire....

QuoteWow dude.  Really?  Millions of people all over the Middle East rising up against the decades-long repression of their tyrant leaders, women still getting stoned to death in Iran, female mutilation in African countries, and yet *we're* the most regressive nation on the planet?

Huh...

+1

What's more, most people in the world could care less!!!

QuoteThe train is supposed to be capable of speeds up to 168 mph, making the 84-mile trip in as little as 44 minutes, as opposed to 90 minutes by car. Express trains would go straight from Orlando International Airport to downtown Tampa, with local runs also stopping at the Orange County Convention Center, Walt Disney World and Lakeland.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-high-speed-rail-what-now-20110225,0,7534383.story

Quote from: Doctor_K on February 21, 2011, 09:41:20 AM

Wow dude.  Really?  Millions of people all over the Middle East rising up against the decades-long repression of their tyrant leaders, women still getting stoned to death in Iran, female mutilation in African countries, and yet *we're* the most regressive nation on the planet?

Huh...

Such a stock response by some "conservative" men acting like they are the protectors of women. Yet these same conservative men want the death penalty for women who miscarry in the US. Go Figure  ::)

QuoteAre lawmakers from the "women are chattel" set having some sort of nation-wide competition to see who can get the most sick-minded anti-abortion law enacted? Sure seems that way! Last week, a public outcry forced South Dakota lawmakers to shelve a bill that opened the possibility that abortion providers would be endangered by people who believed that killing them was a justifiable homicide. Today comes word that Georgia state Representative Bobby Franklin is shopping a bill that wouldn't just make abortion illegal in Georgia, it would criminalize miscarriages to boot.

Jen Phillips of Mother Jones -- which has of late been America's premier harbinger of this sort of cockamamie legislation -- has the details of a law that she terms "the apex...of woman-hating craziness"

Oh, wait, sorry! Did I forget to mention that the death penalty is involved here? My bad. That's precisely the sort of thing that you read about and do not want to believe it so fervently that, at first, your brain rejects it outright, as if it were some alien tissue grafted onto your medulla oblongata

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/antiabortion-georgia-lawm_n_827340.html

Does ANYONE  check facts here before they post?

Quote from: NotNow on February 26, 2011, 09:35:19 AM
Does ANYONE  check facts here before they post?

why bother...Rick Scott doesn't

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 26, 2011, 10:40:46 AM

Quote from: NotNow on February 26, 2011, 09:35:19 AM
Does ANYONE  check facts here before they post?

why bother...Rick Scott doesn't

+1