HSR was not just an "option" as the title of one thread indicates. Neither do we need to revisit routes and stops, as one of the hallmarks of the project was that it was "shovel ready" due to decades worth of planning.
(http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicCollection/photo_exhibits/trains/_mf0020.jpg)
France's TGV presenting in 1988
QuoteThroughout the 1980s and 1990s, different groups advocated for the development of high-speed railways in Florida. After more than two decades of organization, lobbying, work by state officials, and development proposals by private companies, the dreams of state-of-the-art high-speed rails connecting Florida's cities have yet to be realized.
http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicCollection/photo_exhibits/trains/trains4.cfm
And if the Republican led legislature is right..............the plan was fully set in motion by Gov. Charlie Crist and Scott had no legal way to stop it. State funds of $300 were already appropriated in the previous legislature and the federal $2.4 were already commited.
QuoteEvidence is mounting that Gov. Rick Scott is interested in getting on a national tea party train and Wednesday's high speed rail announcement was just one example.
As this story explains, the governor has a case of Obama-itis: nearly every announcement is laced with anti-Obama rhetoric.
QuoteThe high speed rail announcement was abruptly pulled together Wednesday morning ........
The governor clearly did not have the announcement on his radar when he met with Senate Transporation Committee Chairman Jack Latvala to talk about pending transportation issues the day before.
And the governor's office gave House and Senate leaders only five minutes warning before the press conference to announce his rejection of the federal rail money.
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/gov-rick-scott-cancels-train-florida-he-courts-national-movement
(http://www.internetclub91.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/titanic2.jpg)
Big deal Faye, so was the Titanic's planning...
Just because a bunch of starry eyed "believers" decided this is a magic bullet 10, 20, or 50 years ago, doesn't make it right. The Hindenburg certainly had the blessing of the party, but it was badly planned. Monorail, which most people think is the "train of the future," has been around as long as railroads... Doesn't work on a grand scale, never did, never will.
Florida High Speed Rail, as planned
- *Misses the market almost completely...
*In spite of the lies to the contrary in the documents, it will do NOTHING for FLORIDA RESIDENTS.
*In spite of the falsehoods in the records, it will not relieve one traffic jam on I-4.
*No matter what they wrote, stations 5 miles out of little towns between Disney and Tampa are a waste of money.
*They claim this will help modernize the railroads in Florida, LIE, it will do NOTHING for the railroads in Florida.
*They project passenger ridership as high as the Northeast Corridor never mind that we have 1/5 of the population and have not had a population dependent on passenger trains since 1929.
*There are claims in the documents that this will stop sprawl, how? By stringing stations so far out that every town with a station will have to jump miles out to reach it? Just the opposite is true.
*The claims of "intermodal connectivity" is also bull shit, as Florida doesn't have but one city with anything like real mass transit, and Orlando or Tampa are not it.
Faye, this is a fantasy project, pushed by politicians that don't know a locomotive from a DC-3, hyped by actors, and business men and women who know even less. Paraded in front of a bunch of star struck Euro-Wannabes who don't know any better. Meanwhile the general consensus on the Florida project within the industry is: "Impending Disaster for Rail."
Florida has a history of "STUPID," when it comes to transportation:
USF in Tampa, the CUTR, and the National BRT Institute IN FLORIDA have convinced half the government that BUS RAPID TRANSIT really is JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER.
Miami built a metro then quit without expanding it into the distant suburbs, then complain that it's too expensive and people don't ride.
Jacksonville built a Skyway between nothing and nowhere by way of not much, and also complains that the people love their cars too much, it doesn't work and people don't ride.
When Jimmy Carter discontinued the Champion between Tampa-Jax-NYC guess what Florida did? When he then cut off the Floridian between Miami/Tampa-Jax-Chicago do you know what Florida did? NOTHING! NADA!
Tampa designed a Light Rail System, that would have cost about 5x what the new subways in Los Angeles are costing, and it went down in flames, they can't figure out why.
Tampa built a streetcar from one amusement area to another amusement area and when they discovered not many people commute between clubs and aquariums, they cried that it had failed, and rushed to push it downtown.
Florida actually came up with a FLORIDA AMTRAK SYSTEM and in 2000 one could buy a pass to most anywhere in the state, but we only funded one train, and that only for a year, allowed Amtrak to remove 5 daily trains including two completely different markets, then claimed nobody would ride.
We paid millions to rebuild the CSX line to host the Sunset Limited between Orlando and Los Angeles, though we never got Amtrak to serve the route in daylight hours, never thought about saving money by sending it's cars on south from Jacksonville via the other Amtrak trains, all the way to Miami/Tampa, then let Amtrak use a storm as an excuse to walk away from it... Do we get our money back? Guess...
We paid over 2 million to rebuild the old Union Station in Ocala, into a regional transportation center, serving Amtrak, Greyhound and Ocala Transit, then recently allowed Amtrak to kill the entire route from Jax-Tampa via Ocala.
And today, they have convinced most of MJ, the State and the Nation, that we have the superior shovel ready project. Hey people, the record says otherwise.
...AND YOU TRUST THESE NUTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING BASED ON AN INSURANCE SALESMAN, AND HIS POLITICO WIFE?
We MUST go back to start and get railroad people to design this thing, with the FDOT largely out of the way...
As you know I support HIGH SPEED RAIL, and I support HIGH SPEED RAIL IN FLORIDA, but I sure as hell will never support this stupid AIRPORT to CARNIVAL to AMUSEMENT PARK to CAMPUS to LAKELAND to "Rosa Parks" in TAMPA - Its an irresponsible and badly thought out plan with every indication that it is more about free money then Florida residents, or passengers. OCKLAWAHA
I hope I'm not the only that noticed the lines drawn on the plan pictured track most of the state... Not just 84 miles of suburbs. In fact it appears the Lakeland corridor wasn't included at all back in those days.
Look Ock, I don't doubt your knowledge on trains, but to claim you know more than the 8 (EIGHT) consortiums vying to build and operate Florida's HSR is a little, what shall we say, "conceited?"
QuoteTo one member of the Florida Mobility Partnersâ€"one consortium that had expressed interest in building Florida’s high speed rail lineâ€"the announcement was downright disturbing. “What does [the Governor] have to lose?†Nora Friend, the Vice President of Public Affairs and Business Development at the Spanish rail company Talgo asked, when I reach her by phone today. “To allow all of these strong companies and
concessionaires to do their own diligence and to come and see if they could make it work? What would the state lose?â€
Indeed, Scott’s decision came at a highly disorienting moment for prospective bidders. At least eight teams had assembled and were anxious for the state to issue its formal Request for Qualifications. The RFQ was drafted late last year and, according to Friend, bidders were expecting its formal issue within a month.
The state was clear in its hope that the eventual public-private partnership would be a DBOM&F (Design-Build-Operate-Maintain-and-Finance) arrangement. As such, to be eligible, each consortium bidding would have had to present a financing plan as part of their initial proposal. At a hearing in November, Friend said, her consortium had gone on the record as saying they were confident they would be willing to accept the risk of construction costs, currently estimated at $280 million (or roughly 10 percent of the total cost). This, of course, is the very risk from which the Governor wanted to save Florida taxpayers.
QuoteBut there’s only one way to find out who’s right and who’s wrong about whether the private sector is willing to bear the risk in building high speed rail: let the bid process move forward. And let the consortia place their bids.
http://transportationnation.org/2011/02/18/florida-high-speed-rail-bidders-frustrated-perplexed/
I've disagreed with Faye on several issues concerning this project but allowing it to be bid on by the private sector groups is an example of getting FDOT out of the way and giving rail professionals a chance to look at this. At this point, I haven't seen one logical argument to support letting $2.4 billion move on to other states before opening it up to the bidding process.
i glad high speed is cancelled now florida can plan a real intercity rail network, rick scott does have 118 million in his budget for this year comming up for amtrak fec line and 269 million for sunrail for the next 2 years
This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?
HSR is dead in Florida, why can't we just all get along and move on?
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 19, 2011, 01:05:38 AM
Look Ock, I don't doubt your knowledge on trains, but to claim you know more than the 8 (EIGHT) consortiums vying to build and operate Florida's HSR is a little, what shall we say, "conceited?"
You can call it anything you want Faye, and when this thing causes American HIGH SPEED RAIL projects to implode we can all say, "8 consortium's can't be wrong..." and the Skyway carrys 60,000 passengers a day. How many people would have to claim that pigs fly for you to believe it? 8?
Now you want me silent because it sounds like I believe that I know more then these groups and planners? Hell if it helps any, FORGET ME, just listen to common sense responses to the assinine claims Florida is making for this project. If I knew NOTHING about rail, I'd probably be cheering this thing on too. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Garden guy on February 19, 2011, 08:23:06 AM
This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?
Your wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.
You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.OCKLAWAHA
QuoteYour wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.
You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.
+1
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 19, 2011, 12:31:43 PM
QuoteYour wrong Garden Guy, this is a fight over a train that makes no sense, reeks of government funding for Disney and Shamoo, and won't carry any Floridians. It has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans. The concept of a train that doesn't connect the corridor, or the urban end points, down an isolated freeway, between theme parks an airport and a Rosa Parks bus stop is horribly flawed.
You will not find a bigger supporter of rail projects then me, I've done it most of my life, but I didn't support the Skyway, have never supported the Las Vegas-Los Angeles Monorail, the Orlando Airport Maglev, or a train down I-4 that doesn't penetrate the Orlando metropolitan area. If this thing were just changed around so that it would do a few of the things they claim it will do, I'd be all over it.
+1
This is exactly why you let the private sector have a crack at this before you scuttle it. Let's see if the mighty private sector can make lemonade.
Ock you are a professional if you were with a big company given this corridor and 2.5 billion of federal money as starting point what could you do with it?
I don't know about Ock, but I'd establish a system where infrastructure is used for both express and local service. My line would be a hybrid of HSR and commuter rail services. Local service would make additional stops in places like Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Brandon and US 27, while the express service would move at a high speed with limited stops along the way. This would dramatically increase the potential riderside base for both local residents and tourist. I'd cut capital costs by initially using conventional technology and more simplistic stations. I'd also cut station costs down by taking advantage of existing interchanges for access (similar to Chicago's El in the middle of the Dan Ryan), where the opportunity presents itself. For station sites that would be donated (ex. Disney, USF Poly, etc.), I'd design and market them to allow as much TOD as possible. In other words, I'd take a page out of history and use transit to stimulate land development income. Other than that, I'd pimp the system out as much as possible to increase profitability. This means, I'm allowing train wrap advertisement, selling system, station and even garage naming rights when the opportunity arises.
Quote from: Garden guy on February 19, 2011, 08:23:06 AM
This is a political fight over trains...the dems want our society to advance into the 20th century at least and rep. want everything to stay the way they were in 1930....dems see things helping the public and the republicans it seems only want the rich to get richer...two totally different approaches. Our nation is behind the world is soooo many sectors and this is only one more of them. It seem we americans think we are all that but in reallity...we are just a bunch of backward uneducated wierdos...if we keep this up...i see our country being taken over within the next 100 years...it's all our fault....we forgot to educate our kids and we gave all of our cash to the top 2 percent of our people....we're so smart are'nt we?
+1
The question is: do we need to get the rich more money to spend or help the middle class have more money to spend?
Consumer spending makes up 70% of GDP.
Having the top 1% of our population make as much as the bottom 95% of our population is a recipe for economic disaster.
After all: How much more "consuming" can that top 1% do to support our economy?
A strong and prosperous middle class is the backbone of a vibrant economy, since they are the ones that make up the bulk of our domestic consumption. Unfortunately Republicans are doing everthing to destroy our middle class.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 07:49:12 AM
I've disagreed with Faye on several issues concerning this project but allowing it to be bid on by the private sector groups is an example of getting FDOT out of the way and giving rail professionals a chance to look at this. At this point, I haven't seen one logical argument to support letting $2.4 billion move on to other states before opening it up to the bidding process.
Thanks lake!
The logical argument actually is that private industry DOES see profitability in the HSR line as currently planned, something Republicans definitely do NOT want to acknowledge!!!!! So real bidding has to be avoided at all cost :o
Reality, schmelity.
As America2050 said:
QuoteCentral Florida also possesses a special attribute that distinguishes the region from almost every other: close to 50 million annual visitors to Central Florida destinations like Disney World. If only 5 percent of these visitors take the high-speed rail line to connect from the airport to Disney World, they would meet the passenger estimates of 2.4 million for the entire Tampa-Orlando line in the first year of operation.
http://www.america2050.org/2011/01/why-and-how-floridas-high-speed-rail-line-must-be-built.html
As I have sat on the sidelines and read through the arguments pro and con I wanted to add a few.
All things considered, if the Fed's did the funds, Florida outsourced it to the highest bidder as a private build/operator, the state would still be on hook if the operator files for bankruptcy.
The problem with passenger only HSR is that it requires high load factors and frequent volumes to cover a portion of its COC (cost of capital).
Traditional rail (in the old days) easily made up for the COC for passengers with freight margins. However, passenger only HSR looks to make up the difference in that COC through the heavy use of federal and state monies.
IMHO, this is why so many foreign based firms have such a huge interest in bidding the project, because that is how they make it work in their respective countries. They have experience in government funded capital of HSR.
I think Ock is right in that some of the approaches to this plan are flawed and have issues that need addressing.
I think the Obama Administration has simply copied how Europe funds their rail network and is attempting to duplicate it here. I think the Administration has merit in what they are trying to accomplish, however their methods and means are subject to scrutiny and review.
The absence of traditional domestic rail operators speaks volumes in how they perceive the economics of the HSR proposal.
In summary:
- Does Florida need HSR? yes eventually
- Does the current plan make sense? Not 100 percent. It needs some revisions
- Should the taxpayers be on the hook? If there is public interest, then yes, they should have some skin in the game.
I guess, my point is we should evaluate this in further detail by putting it out to bid instead of calling it quits this early in the game. Quite simply, we could really use the economic benefit gained from such an investment in our state. Thus, we should be treating this the same way we did for the Outer Beltway. There, the private sector has indicated its unfeasible and we're still trying to find ways to get it done. Here, we're not even giving the private sector a chance to look at this and suggest modifications to make a more feasible project.
spuwho, thanks for joining the conversation.
I'm afraid it is quite the other way around though.
It's not that we have to worry about these 8 consortiums going bankrupt........after all. many of them have been functioning just fine for decades without any US help. Rather these consortiums want to be sure that continued federal resources are there to keep building on further US services.
As has been said before........the Orlando-Tampa line is lucrative to them, if only for the opportunity to work on the future Orlando-Miami portion. BUT
these consortiums have to be assured of steady federal funding going forward rather than politically fickle "on and off" type funding (Rick Scott exhibiting the ultimate political fickleness at the expense of tens of thousands of jobs for FL):
Quotefinancing HSR is entirely feasible, but will only happen if the administration and its congressional allies take bold steps to rebalance our transportation priorities. Fortunately, there is both a funding source and a road map for moving from today’s scattershot federal transportation spending to a results-driven enterprise.
The funding source is the Highway Trust Fund, with approximate funds of $52 billion a year. Allocating a portion of highway funds for rail construction is an equitable way to wean drivers away from auto travel by providing them with a faster, safer, and more environmentally sound alternative.
Congress could easily allot $5 billion a year for HSR construction â€" without an increase in the gas tax â€" by cutting out earmarks and formula-based grants that now soak up billions of dollars, according to the General Accountability Office (GAO).
Such fund reallocations could not only jumpstart HSR projects but serve as seed money for public-private partnerships to get the work done.
Already, international rail operators have expressed interest in competing for high-speed train contracts in the U.S. But these groups are waiting for the Obama administration to lay out a comprehensive financing plan before structuring bids.
The use of a well-established and reliable source of transportation financing could make these deals happen.
http://www.progressivefix.com/a-smart-way-to-finance-high-speed-rail-restructuring-the-highway-trust-fund-into-a-results-driven-transportation-fund
BTW why would you think we would have private American companies willing and able to get HSR done.........we simply haven't built the expertise to do this given the anti-rail attitude that is still being fueled in the US.
Let's see what happens when gas hits $5 per gallon in the summer, but the US is so behind the curve on this, that I'm afraid foreign train builders have already cornered the market!
Lack of forward vision is America's #1 problem.
Quotethe Orlando-Tampa line is lucrative
Ock - Can you and Stephen build an MetroORLANDO for Faye? Or better yet, MetroTAMPA???
MetroJacksonville.com could CARE LESS ABOUT HSR!!!!!
woot! MetroOrlando.com, the place were Jaxvillians can talk about Orlando and how horrible its transportation is. The entire city is a traffic jam, except its miles of tollways. Okay enough with off-topic responses PEOPLE!
Not so fast mtraininjax!
From the TU in Oct 2010:
Quote"The future of high-speed rail in Florida," said Kevin Thibault, executive director of Florida Rail Enterprise, "is Jacksonville and Southeast Florida."
The present is Central Florida along the Interstate 4 corridor. The state has secured $1.25 billion in federal stimulus funds to build a high-speed rail from Tampa to Orlando. That line is expected to be open in late 2015.
Thibault spoke at a Tuesday luncheon at the Jacksonville office of the Florida Department of Transportation, which runs the Florida Rail Enterprise.
The state plans to extend high-speed rail from Orlando to Miami. A Jacksonville connection would be next.
"From Jacksonville we can establish links out of the state to somewhere like Atlanta," Thibault said. "And we really can't connect out of state unless we go through Jacksonville."
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-10-19/story/jacksonville-told-prepare-high-speed-rail#ixzz1ESFQ8P1z
That will ONLY happen if the Tampa-Orlando line is successful, and then if the Orlando-Miami line is successful. Then J-ville would be next. Thats quite a lot of odds there.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 19, 2011, 07:10:34 PM
Quotethe Orlando-Tampa line is lucrative
Ock - Can you and Stephen build an MetroORLANDO for Faye? Or better yet, MetroTAMPA???
MetroJacksonville.com could CARE LESS ABOUT HSR!!!!!
This attitude is part of why Jacksonville is so often left out of the game. I see a lot of benefit to acting like a united state... even if it is just an act. :) MetroFLORIDA!
^That's exactly why Jax is left out of the game. For some reason we think we exist on an island and that events in other areas have no impact on us. For those wanting federal assistance for other local stuff, the best way to hurt those efforts is for your State government to play bad politics with the entity you hope will give you money for your pet projects.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 19, 2011, 12:46:38 AM
I hope I'm not the only that noticed the lines drawn on the plan pictured track most of the state... Not just 84 miles of suburbs. In fact it appears the Lakeland corridor wasn't included at all back in those days.
huh? the 1988 map is virtually identical to the one now
Quote from: rainfrog on February 19, 2011, 07:42:30 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 19, 2011, 07:10:34 PM
Quotethe Orlando-Tampa line is lucrative
Ock - Can you and Stephen build an MetroORLANDO for Faye? Or better yet, MetroTAMPA???
MetroJacksonville.com could CARE LESS ABOUT HSR!!!!!
This attitude is part of why Jacksonville is so often left out of the game. I see a lot of benefit to acting like a united state... even if it is just an act. :) MetroFLORIDA!
+1000
I live here now and care about Jax. quite a bit...but what happens in Orlando, Tampa, Miami, and the rest of the state does matter....and is often quite relevant to issues here in Jax. (like commuter rail for one).
QuoteCONNEXION = THE FRENCH ENGLISH LANGUAGE NEWSPAPER
TGV lines may be axed to save cash
January 18, 2010
THE SNCF is looking to cut a number of cross-country TGV services by the end of this year to save money, it has emerged.
Les Echos reveals today that routes from Strasbourg to Nantes, Bordeaux and Lille are among those being carefully examined by rail bosses.
According to the paper, long-distance travel has been a cash cow for the SNCF for several years but a drop in profits is expected to be announced today, forcing the operator to "seriously look again at its economic model". Some lines could be axed entirely.
A source told the paper that about 20% of TGV services are loss-making, and there are fears this could rise to 30% in the coming year.
The news comes two months after the French national audit office, the Cour des Comptes, published a report looking at the viability of local TER services around France.
It found that a number of rural services were operating near-empty and it would be cheaper and more environmentally friendly to axe them and run buses instead.
SOURCE: http://www.connexionfrance.com/sncf-tgv-services-axed-loss-making-train-strike-france-february-3-unions-11333-view-article.html
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 19, 2011, 05:15:16 PM
The logical argument actually is that private industry DOES see profitability in the HSR line as currently planned, something Republicans definitely do NOT want to acknowledge!!!!! So real bidding has to be avoided at all cost :o
Reality, schmelity.
As America2050 said:
QuoteCentral Florida also possesses a special attribute that distinguishes the region from almost every other: close to 50 million annual visitors to Central Florida destinations like Disney World. If only 5 percent of these visitors take the high-speed rail line to connect from the airport to Disney World, they would meet the passenger estimates of 2.4 million for the entire Tampa-Orlando line in the first year of operation.
http://www.america2050.org/2011/01/why-and-how-floridas-high-speed-rail-line-must-be-built.html
5% of WHAT 50 MILLION PEOPLE FROM "THE AIRPORT TO DISNEY WORLD?" This is exactly the type of lies, smoke and mirrors that are laced all through the HSR APPLICATIONS. There is no 50 million going from the Orlando Airport to anywhere... Last years TOTAL PASSENGER COUNT WAS:
2010 Calendar Year Statistics:
* International traffic increased 9.0 percent.
* 2010 was a record year with 3,245,799 international travelers at Orlando International Airport. That represents an increase of 267,978 passengers over the previous record set in 2009.
* Domestic travel increased 2.98 percent over 2009.
* Domestic traffic totaled 31,632,100 for the year.
* Combined passenger numbers for 2010: 34,877,899; up 3.51 percent.
34,877,899 million and that's TOTAL TRAFFIC both enplaning and deplaning passengers. So do the math, an average of only 50% of that number are arriving passengers. So while your parroting and posting these pie-in-the-sky deceptions Faye, the real arrival number is more like 17,438,949 and your 2.4 million passengers just plummeted to 871,947 ANNUAL PASSENGERS, which is 204,525 LESS THEN AMTRAK'S 1,076,472 Florida passengers in 2010 with 3 lousy trains (2 conventional + Auto-Train).
So whatcha gonna do Faye? Run 3 trains daily? While that will hold down costs it won't do much for your time saving flying train or the bottom line when we try and pay for this thing. Your numbers would be much more believable if they had come from anywhere but the FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMISSION. Why are they trying to mislead people into believing this fantasy 50 million passengers from Orlando's Airport to Disney World?
Assuming that EVERY PASSENGER rode right through Disney and went all the way to Tampa's bus station, @ $35 dollars per ticket, that's barely $30 million dollars a year GROSS! Considering that railroads being extremely cash intensive usually have operating ratios of around 77.8% with a 9.79% return on equity. BUT THIS WAS ALL FREIGHT! Amtrak's operating ratio was a scary 155% last year which includes the HIGHER SPEED NORTHEAST CORRIDOR, and they're running on a Federal mandate that's as close to a free ride as anyone gets. One has to wonder how damaging these numbers will be when the reports start to come in on a weak HSR passenger link, propped up by government, and 100% responsible for it's own property, track, trains, signaling, stations and services etc...
REFERENCE:
http://www.orlandoairports.net/press/2011/20110202.htm
http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/FLORIDA10.pdfQuoteTHE ECONOMIST (LONDON)
High-speed railroading
America’s system of rail freight is the world’s best. High-speed passenger trains could ruin it
The Economist continues, correctly: “America’s railways are the mirror image of Europe’s. Europe has an impressive and growing network of high-speed passenger links, many of them international, like the Thalys service between Paris and Brussels or the Eurostar connecting London to the French and Belgian capitals. These are successfulâ€"although once the (off-balance-sheet) costs of building the tracks are counted, they need subsidies of billions of dollars a year. But, outside Germany and Switzerland, Europe’s freight rail services are a fragmented, loss-making mess. Repeated attempts to remove the technical and bureaucratic hurdles at national frontiers have come to nothing.â€
In addition the freight railroads face a $15 billion bill for a new safety system to control trains on lines that also carry passengers or dangerous chemical cargoes. This system, Positive Train Control (PTC), is intended to stop or slow a train automatically if a driver goes too fast or passes a red signal. The bill to introduce PTC was signed by George Bush in 2008 only a month after a crash between a Metrolink commuter train and a Union Pacific freight train in California, causing 25 deaths and 135 injuries. The railway companies complain that only 3% of crashes are caused by the sort of human error that PTC is designed to avert and that claims that the system will improve efficiency on the network are unfounded. The railways are seeking tax breaks and other subsidies to reduce the cost of complying.
The emergence of express intercity rail services may cause the freight railways the biggest problem of all. The policy is not only laid down by the president but also often has enthusiastic support at state level. The railways can hardly oppose Mr Obama’s plan to boost high-speed rail, but they are apprehensive about what it will mean for them.
Return of regulation
The freight railroads have learned to live with the limited Amtrak passenger services on their tracks. Occasionally they moan that Amtrak pays only about a fifth of the real cost of this access. Some railmen calculate that this is equivalent to a subsidy of about $240m a year, on top of what Amtrak gets from the government. Freight-rail people regard this glumly as just part of the cost of doing business, but their spirits will hardly lift if the burden grows.
Their main complaint, however, is that one Amtrak passenger train at 110mph will remove the capacity to run six freight trains in any corridor. Nor do they believe claims that PTC, due to be in use by 2015, will increase capacity by allowing trains to run closer together in safety. So it will cost billions to adapt and upgrade the lines to accommodate both a big rise in freight traffic and an unprecedented burgeoning of intercity passenger services. Indeed, some of the money that the White House has earmarked will go on sidings where freight trains can be parked while intercity expresses speed by.
Federal and state grants will flow to the freight railroads to help them upgrade their lines for more and faster passenger trains. But already rows are breaking out over the strict guidelines the FRA will lay down about operations on the upgraded lines, such as guarantees of on-time performance with draconian penalties if they are breached and the payment of indemnities for accidents involving passenger trains. The railroads are also concerned that the federal government will be the final arbiter of how new capacity created with the federal funds will be allocated between passenger and freight traffic. And they are annoyed that there was little consultation before these rules were published.
There have been some heated meetings between freight-railroad managers and FRA officials. Henry Posner III, chairman of Iowa Interstate Railroad, ruefully notes that freight railroads, in the form of passengers and regulation, “are getting back things that caused troubleâ€.
What this aspect of the argument boils down to is the Railroads KNOW that they will get the 95% increased capacity disguised as a problem called HIGH SPEED RAIL. ...WE MUST GET THIS RIGHT! Reality, schmelity.OCKOCKLAWAHA
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 19, 2011, 06:43:01 PM
spuwho, thanks for joining the conversation.
I'm afraid it is quite the other way around though.
It's not that we have to worry about these 8 consortiums going bankrupt........after all. many of them have been functioning just fine for decades without any US help. Rather these consortiums want to be sure that continued federal resources are there to keep building on further US services.
The funding source is the Highway Trust Fund, with approximate funds of $52 billion a year. Allocating a portion of highway funds for rail construction is an equitable way to wean drivers away from auto travel by providing them with a faster, safer, and more environmentally sound alternative.
Congress could easily allot $5 billion a year for HSR construction â€" without an increase in the gas tax â€" by cutting out earmarks and formula-based grants that now soak up billions of dollars, according to the General Accountability Office (GAO).
Such fund reallocations could not only jumpstart HSR projects but serve as seed money for public-private partnerships to get the work done.
Already, international rail operators have expressed interest in competing for high-speed train contracts in the U.S. But these groups are waiting for the Obama administration to lay out a comprehensive financing plan before structuring bids.
The use of a well-established and reliable source of transportation financing could make these deals happen.
http://www.progressivefix.com/a-smart-way-to-finance-high-speed-rail-restructuring-the-highway-trust-fund-into-a-results-driven-transportation-fund
BTW why would you think we would have private American companies willing and able to get HSR done.........we simply haven't built the expertise to do this given the anti-rail attitude that is still being fueled in the US.
Let's see what happens when gas hits $5 per gallon in the summer, but the US is so behind the curve on this, that I'm afraid foreign train builders have already cornered the market!
Lack of forward vision is America's #1 problem.
Glad to join Faye.
First, based on the current funding formula, where the Feds earmark funds and leave the states to carry the rest, is a recipe for operator bankruptcy. This doesn't occur in Europe because there is a long term funding formula to support rail. VAT on fuels is significantly higher there due to this. Without an overall plan (like a HTF) and treating HSR with these yearly earmarks makes the process much to political and subject to whims. Intent is good, methods are not.
I think everyone agrees that the future of passenger rail support is based on some form of revenue redirection. Amtrak works this way through the TEA programs and other sources. So we do have a domestic history and experience.
Most of the objections I have seen here on MJ or in the press haven't been blanket, but more critical of the process and methods. So I don't think it's an total "anti-rail" argument being made in all cases.
While I would agree that some vision is required for a project such as this, some are critical of the execution because the process as it is right now is broken, if anything incomplete.
While HSR is desirable and I agree with you Faye it should be pursued, but under the current funding model and planning process ( as Ock has clearly laid out) it is not sustainable.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 19, 2011, 08:42:32 PM
Quote from: rainfrog on February 19, 2011, 07:42:30 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 19, 2011, 07:10:34 PM
Quotethe Orlando-Tampa line is lucrative
Ock - Can you and Stephen build an MetroORLANDO for Faye? Or better yet, MetroTAMPA???
MetroJacksonville.com could CARE LESS ABOUT HSR!!!!!
This attitude is part of why Jacksonville is so often left out of the game. I see a lot of benefit to acting like a united state... even if it is just an act. :) MetroFLORIDA!
+1000
I live here now and care about Jax. quite a bit...but what happens in Orlando, Tampa, Miami, and the rest of the state does matter....and is often quite relevant to issues here in Jax. (like commuter rail for one).
What is so sad is that HSR got nixed by one man for purely selfish political reasons. Fortunately many Florida leaders are calling Scott out on his reckless behavior, while working out a plan to receive the monies without state involvement:
QuoteA better approach would be the creation, by the federal government, of a Central Florida MPO to handle the federal money and oversee the project. The regional agency could grow to include Miami, and later Jacksonville, as the line expands.
By then, if the fast trains perform as expected, state politics would allow the state rail agency to assume control. If the trains flop, as Scott predicts, it would be a federal problem.
Federal transportation officials, facing deadlines of their own, are willing to wait until Friday to give Florida time to come up with a new plan. A bipartisan group, including U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, U.S. Rep. John Mica, the pro-business Tampa Bay Partnership, the Central Florida Partnership, and local and state leaders from Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando, along with a majority of the state Senate, are in a desperate dash to salvage the project.
It's time well-spent. Five days divided by $2.4 billion is $20 million an hour.
It is frustrating that after so many years of planning, everything depends on the outcome of a chase scene, a climax only a Hollywood film director could love.
Scott's reaction this week will show if he is more interested in his state's welfare or in taking a high-profile jab at President Barack Obama at the state's expense.
and a direct appeal to Scott:
QuoteScott's administration has the power to sabotage almost any solution that attempts an end-run around him.
We urge him to signal a willingness to stand aside. Please, Gov. Scott, get government out of the way of creating jobs and restoring economic growth.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/20/VWOPINO1-let-region-build-train/
Even The Economist acknowledges Scott's purely selfish political motives at the expense of the state of Florida
QuoteMr Scott could have some deeply held, high-minded policy objection to the Tampa-Orlando line. But it seems a lot more likely that he is simply following the lead of other newly elected Republican governors around the country. Ohio's John Kasich and Wisconsin's Scott Walker dramatically raised their national profiles by sticking a thumb in the eye of the Obama administration and rejecting rail money targeted for their states.
So far, Mr Scott's move seems to be earning him the same kind of pressâ€"and the same sort of credibility with the GOP's conservative base. Now some in the media are even talking about Mr Scott as a potential presidential candidate in 2012. That could be just what the governor wanted out of this.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/02/high-speed_rail_florida
Quote from: spuwho on February 20, 2011, 12:08:17 AM
Glad to join Faye.
First, based on the current funding formula, where the Feds earmark funds and leave the states to carry the rest, is a recipe for operator bankruptcy. This doesn't occur in Europe because there is a long term funding formula to support rail. VAT on fuels is significantly higher there due to this. Without an overall plan (like a HTF) and treating HSR with these yearly earmarks makes the process much to political and subject to whims. Intent is good, methods are not.
I think everyone agrees that the future of passenger rail support is based on some form of revenue redirection. Amtrak works this way through the TEA programs and other sources. So we do have a domestic history and experience.
Most of the objections I have seen here on MJ or in the press haven't been blanket, but more critical of the process and methods. So I don't think it's an total "anti-rail" argument being made in all cases.
While I would agree that some vision is required for a project such as this, some are critical of the execution because the process as it is right now is broken, if anything incomplete.
While HSR is desirable and I agree with you Faye it should be pursued, but under the current funding model and planning process ( as Ock has clearly laid out) it is not sustainable.
The MPO solution as described above would make it a federal problem if a consortium fails.
Also:
QuoteMore importantly, in criticizing Scott's decision to halt Florida's plan to become the first state to offer a high-speed-rail system, Ring knows something about creating a climate of innovation and jobs.
He was one of the early executives in Yahoo.com -- launching the Internet company's East Coast operation from his apartment in New York.
And for a number of years, Ring worked at the Yahoo headquarters in Silicon Valley in California -- which some consider the epicenter of American innovation.
and
QuoteAs a former business executive, like Scott, Ring said he understands the governor's concerns about the cost of the $2.7 billion high-speed-rail system.
But Ring said "sometimes you need a loss leader" if in the end it draws more economic activity.
Ring argues that building the nation's first high-speed-rail system -- with the federal government and private industry paying the cost -- would have sent a major signal that Florida was a state interested in innovation and cutting-edge technologies.
He said Scott's decision to reject that opportunity was "huge."
"I think what it does is we go back to what we were," Ring said. "People look at us from a standpoint that they will vacation here and they will retire here. But are they going to invest their capital here? Are engineers going to want to come to the state and start innovating and creating the ideas that lead to great businesses here?"
http://www.theledger.com/article/20110220/COLUMNISTS0302/102205010?p=2&tc=pg
The economic multiplier effect of HSR would be significant for Florida!
Ock, I have no idea where America 2050 got their 50 million visitor figure from for Central Florida.
I do know however that Orlando does get 50,000,000 visitors per:
http://www.orlandoinfo.com/research/visitors/volume.cfm
If that is the number America2050 used, and they for convenience sake said that 5% of these visitors could be using HSR, then that is how they came up with their "potential ridership"
The 5% figure has no basis, rather it is a hypthetical low percentage that was solely used to indicate that even if one considers a very small portion of Orlando visitors would be using HSR (and 5% is a very small portion), then you could easily arrive at the forecasted ridership numbers needed to make HSR feasible.
I used to be a utilization planner myself and this rough methodology makes as much sense as any other seemingly more precise method as we currently do not have any HSR situation in the US ( with potential significant tourist component) on which to base any more "accurate" prediction of ridership.
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
As long as our economy and politics are driven by the industries who profit the most from these subsidizies, I think the answer is 'NO'. As we shift to more of a 'creative' ecomony then the answer might be 'YES'.
That's my problem with this Florida HSR decision by Scott. It's not a new way of thinking or approaching the issues, it's more of the same old partisan political shell game that does us more damage than good.
QuoteThat's my problem with this Florida HSR decision by Scott. It's not a new way of thinking or approaching the issues
How do you figure Lake? Did we need HSR to make Florida's economy zoom to a new level? How many HSR projects do we have in Florida? Just this one? How many ports do we have in Florida, 14? How many asked for funds to expand for Post-Panamax ships? 3 that I know of, and we have ports with jobs NOW, and we plan to have many more from expansion of the ports. I think Scott has opened his hand and he is playing with Port cards and he will be driving for more money for something that makes Florida strong, port traffic.
I voted for Scott and I know others who did with the intent that he is different with different ideas. I disagree with you that he approaches things the same way as Crist did or even Jeb Bush. I applaud is efforts and look forward to seeing him apply common sense to economics in Florida. All his opponents have 3 years to find someone to run against him, I hope between now and then, Scott is successful. We shall see.
Quote
Mr Scott could have some deeply held, high-minded policy objection to the Tampa-Orlando line. But it seems a lot more likely that he is simply following the lead of other newly elected Republican governors around the country. Ohio's John Kasich and Wisconsin's Scott Walker dramatically raised their national profiles by sticking a thumb in the eye of the Obama administration and rejecting rail money targeted for their states.
So far, Mr Scott's move seems to be earning him the same kind of pressâ€"and the same sort of credibility with the GOP's conservative base. Now some in the media are even talking about Mr Scott as a potential presidential candidate in 2012. That could be just what the governor wanted out of this.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/02/high-speed_rail_florida
If one is to believe that Mr. Scott is truly out to benefit from his win of the governors office rather than work for the people of Florida, then the media tease of a presidential possibility holds some water as he gets his name and face out there nationally with a highly controversial decision to turn down the feds big bucks offer. Does he have enough of his own money left to buy into the White House? I think whoever wrote that piece got that candidate date of 2012 wrong.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
Subsidy assumes a revenue source other than taxes. In almost all cases roads then are not subsidized, but merely funded since they perform a service to the public. (which they historically support)
Passenger rail is not 100 percent domestically accepted yet as a public service, since it has historically been a private business. Public use of the rails has been a more recent thing. Therefore the term subsidy is more apropos is this case. At the moment (except for Acela) it is primarily a mix of public/private.
Roads provide a broad set of uses that HSR cannot replicate, so while it would be simple to compare on a pure dollars per mile basis, it's a troublesome compare fraught with too many variances.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 20, 2011, 10:59:27 AM
All his opponents have 3 years to find someone to run against him, I hope between now and then, Scott is successful. We shall see.
Rick Scott was elected by less than one out of four Floridians. Less than 50% of Floridians bothered to vote, and he got the smallest victory in the history of the state of Florida ergo less than 25% of Floridians actually elected him.
All we need is 3 months to recall him once we actually get the right to recall state lawmakers like 18 other states already have.
Let's see the will of the people at work instead of very "staged" campaigns costing $75 million of our stolen money. That $75 million of his "own" money Scott used to buy himself the governorship was stolen from Medicare!!
His company was the proud recipient of the
largest fine ever leveled against ANY company in the history of the US!!!Quote$631 million in civil penalties and damages arising from false claims the government alleged HCA submitted to Medicare
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2003/June/03_civ_386.htm
Please join our facebook page to Recall Rick Scott!! We have already doubled our membership in the first 24 hours after Scott killed HSR and continue to add thousands!!
Spuwho, i've never heard it spinned that way and I definitely don't agree with that logic. When I get in front of a computer, I'll have to respond in greater detail.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.
Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 03:37:13 PM
Spuwho, i've never heard it spinned that way and I definitely don't agree with that logic. When I get in front of a computer, I'll have to respond in greater detail.
Not a problem, Lake, I am more than happy to expound further at any time.
No spin intended. Just a perspective. Yours may vary.
Quote from: spuwho on February 20, 2011, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
Subsidy assumes a revenue source other than taxes. In almost all cases roads then are not subsidized, but merely funded since they perform a service to the public. (which they historically support)
Historically and even presently, the majority of roads constructed in this country are privately funded for land development purposes. In many cases, they are then turned over to a public entity to be maintained. Imo, this would fit your definition of a subsidy. For example, the roads in Riverside, Nocatee and Argyle were all initially developed with private money to stimulate profits from the increase in value of surrounding property. In general, the public would have been fine without any of these developments. So, we can't make a blanket statement that roads are merely funded and not subsidized because they perform a service to the public.
QuotePassenger rail is not 100 percent domestically accepted yet as a public service, since it has historically been a private business. Public use of the rails has been a more recent thing. Therefore the term subsidy is more apropos is this case. At the moment (except for Acela) it is primarily a mix of public/private.
I'll differ here as well. Both rail and roads have historically been used as a means by the private sector to spur income through associated land development. Rail, roads and other infrastructure projects can be accepted as a public service or for private gain. You really have to determine each project on its individual merit. For example, its really debatable that rebuilding Monroe Street in front of the courthouse or constructing the Outer Beltway are really being done in the name of "public service." In many cases, they do the public more harm than not doing anything at all. With all of this said, the general public doesn't view any angle of an issue at a 100% level. We're to diverse in terms of age, race, cultures, lifestyles, etc. to pigeon hole our beliefs into a one size fits all mentality, as far as infrastructure investment goes.
QuoteRoads provide a broad set of uses that HSR cannot replicate, so while it would be simple to compare on a pure dollars per mile basis, it's a troublesome compare fraught with too many variances.
Both rail and roads have their pros and cons and shouldn't be evaluated in an either/or position. Ideally, we should be thinking and planning long term for the development of a multimodal transportation network. Nevertheless, all projects (regardless of specific mode) should be fully vetted before making a final decision to invest in them or not.
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 20, 2011, 04:08:24 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.
Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.
(http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/8960/2487692090104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
QuotePORT CATOOSA
The Tulsa Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma, (proximity map) is located at the head of navigation for the System. The waterway travels 445 miles along the Verdigris River, the Arkansas River, the Arkansas Post Canal and the White River before joining the Mississippi at Montgomery Point. New Orleans is 600 miles south.
There are 18 locks and dams on the McClellan-Kerr. Each of these dams creates a reservoir, or what is called a navigation pool. The system of locks and dams can be likened to a 440-mile staircase of water.
In an average year, 13-million tons of cargo is transported on the McClellan-Kerr by barge. This ranges from sand and rock to fertilizer, wheat, raw steel, refined petroleum products and sophisticated petrochemical processing equipment.
Why is so much cargo moved by water? One reason is cost. It is estimated that large quantities of commodity cargo can be moved by barge for one-third the cost of railroad and one-fifth the cost of truck.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers built the system 36 years ago, at a cost of $1.3 billion, and still operates and maintains it. Issues regarding safety, however, are the jurisdiction of the U.S. Coast Guard.
QuoteInstead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.
Faye, if you are thinking of our poor railroads being behind the other economic powers let me put your mind at ease. The other economic powers would KILL to have our railroads which are by far the NUMBER ONE economic engine, freight carriers, and transportation system in the world! Nobody, not France, not Germany, not China or Japan, NOBODY even comes close.
So why don't we lead the world in Passenger Rail Services? Because with such upside down operating ratios from years of mandated EMPTY trains, and mounting passenger losses, when the railroads asked for relief the crazy politicians decided they "Just didn't know how to run trains..." We ended up with a disastrous Federal Take-Over of such a thin skeletal system that it was a joke before it ever turned a wheel. Nothing was planned to be successful and there were no projections of glee, EVERYTHING was planned on the same crumbling passenger network albeit without enough trains to ever possibly make it a success. Amtrak reeked of a "fix," rigged by the then ruling Republicans, Management of most of the big railroads, (Penn Central, Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Union Pacific, etc., the apparent exceptions being SCL {CSX} SOUTHERN, SANTA FE) and a group of really dumb Democrats that believed this was an exercise in "Making the Trains Worth Riding Again." Penn Central executives went screaming through the offices "WE DID IT! WE'VE SHOT THE PASSENGER TRAIN!"
Enter the fuel crisis, the oil embargo, the misery index, Sierra Club, National Association of Rail Passengers, and a bunch of other odd bedfellows and suddenly Amtrak started to have some cheerleaders that were saying FIX IT, and RUN IT RIGHT! The damage was horrific, we had gone from around 25,000 pieces of passenger equipment to 4,000 our route miles were now a mere fraction, entire routes were even torn up, since it was basically seized from the railroads they didn't give a thought to sparing a route that might have some future passenger use. To prevent the problem from being shoved back at them (a mandated loss) the railroads even refined the art of abandonment in piecemeal fashion. The mainline through Gainesville is no more, but it still goes into the north side of town, and out to Alachua, where it crossed a branchline to Starke, where that meets a mainline to Baldwin, which connects for Jacksonville! FREIGHT DOESN'T COMPLAIN!
(http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/47928/2868228260104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
PLASSER-AMERICAN
(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/14570/2149866010104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 20, 2011, 09:48:35 PM
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 20, 2011, 04:08:24 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2011, 07:35:19 AM
There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?
lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.
Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.
(http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/8960/2487692090104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
QuotePORT CATOOSA
The Tulsa Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma, (proximity map) is located at the head of navigation for the System. The waterway travels 445 miles along the Verdigris River, the Arkansas River, the Arkansas Post Canal and the White River before joining the Mississippi at Montgomery Point. New Orleans is 600 miles south.
There are 18 locks and dams on the McClellan-Kerr. Each of these dams creates a reservoir, or what is called a navigation pool. The system of locks and dams can be likened to a 440-mile staircase of water.
In an average year, 13-million tons of cargo is transported on the McClellan-Kerr by barge. This ranges from sand and rock to fertilizer, wheat, raw steel, refined petroleum products and sophisticated petrochemical processing equipment.
Why is so much cargo moved by water? One reason is cost. It is estimated that large quantities of commodity cargo can be moved by barge for one-third the cost of railroad and one-fifth the cost of truck.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers built the system 36 years ago, at a cost of $1.3 billion, and still operates and maintains it. Issues regarding safety, however, are the jurisdiction of the U.S. Coast Guard.
I strongly disagree with the roads don't get a subsidy and rail does argument...Then what does one say about airlines? That ain't cotton candy they land on, nor is it the Big Rock Candy Mountain they taxi to to board passengers... Oh and if there aren't any passengers, no problem, we pay for those seats anyway! Roads? Hey I got into this surface transportation business via TAMIAMI TRAILWAYS BUS SYSTEM, and in that era of my life I have to say it was the most interesting job I ever had. But let me ask you when was the last time you saw an Express Trailways, First Class Trailways or Endeavor Trailways crew out patching the potholes in I-95? How about Greyhound? Yellow Freight? Covenant Transport? or UPS? Installing the real time information signage? How about PAYING FOR the real time information signage? Waterways? Yeah the Ingram Barge, Mississippi Valley Barge, and Delta Queen crews do a stellar job of keeping the Arkansas River dredged and lit all the way to the Port of Catoosa (Tulsa), OKLAHOMA!
QuoteInstead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.
Faye, if you are thinking of our poor railroads being behind the other economic powers let me put your mind at ease. The other economic powers would KILL to have our railroads which are by far the NUMBER ONE economic engine, freight carriers, and transportation system in the world! Nobody, not France, not Germany, not China or Japan, NOBODY even comes close.
So why don't we lead the world in Passenger Rail Services? Because with such upside down operating ratios from years of mandated EMPTY trains, and mounting passenger losses, when the railroads asked for relief the crazy politicians decided they "Just didn't know how to run trains..." We ended up with a disastrous Federal Take-Over of such a thin skeletal system that it was a joke before it ever turned a wheel. Nothing was planned to be successful and there were no projections of glee, EVERYTHING was planned on the same crumbling passenger network albeit without enough trains to ever possibly make it a success. Amtrak reeked of a "fix," rigged by the then ruling Republicans, Management of most of the big railroads, (Penn Central, Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Union Pacific, etc., the apparent exceptions being SCL {CSX} SOUTHERN, SANTA FE) and a group of really dumb Democrats that believed this was an exercise in "Making the Trains Worth Riding Again." Penn Central executives went screaming through the offices "WE DID IT! WE'VE SHOT THE PASSENGER TRAIN!"
Enter the fuel crisis, the oil embargo, the misery index, Sierra Club, National Association of Rail Passengers, and a bunch of other odd bedfellows and suddenly Amtrak started to have some cheerleaders that were saying FIX IT, and RUN IT RIGHT! The damage was horrific, we had gone from around 25,000 pieces of passenger equipment to 4,000 our route miles were now a mere fraction, entire routes were even torn up, since it was basically seized from the railroads they didn't give a thought to sparing a route that might have some future passenger use. To prevent the problem from being shoved back at them (a mandated loss) the railroads even refined the art of abandonment in piecemeal fashion. The mainline through Gainesville is no more, but it still goes into the north side of town, and out to Alachua, where it crossed a branchline to Starke, where that meets a mainline to Baldwin, which connects for Jacksonville! FREIGHT DOESN'T COMPLAIN!
(http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/47928/2868228260104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
PLASSER-AMERICAN
(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/14570/2149866010104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
If we EVER fix our AMTRAK MISTAKES, High Speed Rail will take care of itself in our country, but going around Amtrak and somehow trying to jump over the next few phases probably guarantees that HSR will remain a novelty in our country. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is HERE watching us move freight like no one else... Those new super Locomotives in China? GENERAL ELECTRICS from ERIE PA., those new machines building that HSR line over the GOBI? PLASSER-AMERICAN. So while we still can't ride from Jacksonville to Miami in 7 hours (like we could in 1958!) we CAN haul more cargo, more places, faster, cheaper, better, then anyone else in the world.
OCKLAWAHA
Completely agree with you here Ock!
There has been some talk about circumventing Scott, by letting Amtrak receive the federal monies for HSR in Florida, and for them to fashion the public-private partnership. If successful it would improve Amtrak's standing and its funding for our traditional passenger lines, plus Republicans would successfully be able to point to a public-private partnership that brought us our first true HSR in the US.