Metro Jacksonville

Republican lawmakers who support Florida HSR say it's unlawful for Scott to turn down the federal funding because $300 million of state funding was already appropriated under our previous Governor Charlie Crist.

But Senator Bill Nelson as well as John Mica would prefer to get state government out of the way and completely forego the state funding portion altogether by having private companies foot that part of the cost:

QuoteU.S. Sen. Bill Nelson was in Washington to meet with the federal transportation secretary, and members of Florida's congressional delegation.

"A metropolitan planning organization in Tampa and a rail authority in South Florida have volunteered to step forward in place of the state to accept oversight of the bullet-train project and the $2.4 billion from Uncle Sam. Lawyers are researching how to do it," Nelson said.

Already other states like New York and California have said they would take the funding that was planned for Florida.

Florida lawmakers have been given one week to put together a deal that would keep the federal funds from going to other states.

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/february/209079/Senator-Bill-Nelson-looks-to-move-ahead-on-high-speed-rail-without-Governor-Rick-Scott

Of course it was unlawful . I'm sure that was part of the appeal to governor scott .

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 17, 2011, 05:44:59 PM
Of course it was unlawful . I'm sure that was part of the appeal to governor scott .

lol, I guess Scott likes to live on the edge like all crooks do.

Good article in the Washington Post on HSR:

http://reason.org/blog/show/washington-post-writes-off-high-spe (http://reason.org/blog/show/washington-post-writes-off-high-spe)

Even politicians are seeing that HSR may not be as valuable as other investments.

From the Orlando Sentinel:

QuoteCritics are bad-mouthing Scott’s decision, arguing that the least he could have done was wait to see if any of the private-sector firms wanting to make proposals would have guaranteed to absorb any and all cost overruns and to sign a long-term agreement guaranteeing no operating subsidies. That has to be a pipedream.

On cost overruns, the state capital has been overrun with high-speed rail lobbyists the last few months, and I’m sure the Governor’s office and the Florida Department of Transportation have a pretty good idea, by now, how much (and how little) actual risk the private sector would be willing to take on.

And no matter what an overly-optimistic company might agree to, if its special-purpose entity for Florida high-speed rail got in seriously over its head and walked away from the project after spending, say $3 billion (including the feds’ $2.4 billion), what options would the state then have? With no way of repaying the feds’ moneyâ€"now turned into concrete and steelâ€"it would have no choice but to spend state tax money finishing the project and then subsidizing its operations.

And on operating subsidies, the much larger California high-speed rail project has been testing that premise for the past two years. The ballot measure the voters approved in November 2008 to authorize $9 billion in general-obligation bonds for that project spelled out in black and white that voter approval was conditional on there being zero operating subsidies. But the private firms interested in building and operating the high-speed rail project are telling the California High-Speed Rail Authority that they cannot get financing unless the state provides them with “revenue guarantees.” And what, precisely, is that? If the traffic and revenue on the rail line are below the forecasts on which the financing was based, the state would agree to make up the difference. In other words, operating subsidies. If the private sector required that protection in order to fund the California project, whose ridership potential is far higher than that in Florida, there is no way they would go unprotected in Florida.

So Gov. Rick Scott was on firm ground in judging that the risks to Florida taxpayers were simply too great if this project went forward. He made the right decision.

Comparing California's proposal to Florida's is apples and oranges.  Florida should put the thing out to bid and see what happens.

I can assure you that there are several consortiums that are very interested....these groups are comprised of very large teams (one has 7 firms)...once the RFP is released, they will each do their own internal studies....if the numbers don't add up, they won't submit a bid

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 17, 2011, 09:38:16 PM
I can assure you that there are several consortiums that are very interested....these groups are comprised of very large teams (one has 7 firms)...once the RFP is released, they will each do their own internal studies....if the numbers don't add up, they won't submit a bid

So where have all these interested consortiums been over the past 14 months or so?  Knowing that the deadline was this month, they should have had their studies done so they could seize the opportunity if the deal started to fall to the wayside. 

Or maybe they have and there's a reason no one is jumping at the idea right now.

Let me ask you and Lake this:  If the project goes through, and the remainder is backed by private investors, how long would they be before seeing a return on their investment if at all?  A decade? 

Is there a profit generating railway anywhere in the US that they could model this off of?

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 17, 2011, 09:46:47 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 17, 2011, 09:38:16 PM
I can assure you that there are several consortiums that are very interested....these groups are comprised of very large teams (one has 7 firms)...once the RFP is released, they will each do their own internal studies....if the numbers don't add up, they won't submit a bid

So where have all these interested consortiums been over the past 14 months or so?  Knowing that the deadline was this month, they should have had their studies done so they could seize the opportunity if the deal started to fall to the wayside.  

they've been meeting with FDOT for months...in fact, 1600 people showed up at the Orlando Convention Center in November to discuss the project...than the industry met with FDOT in early December to provide thoughts on the bidding process.

Fact is, there is no deadline this month....the plan was for FDOT to fionish its updated revenue/ridership studies this month (which Gov. Scott refused to wait on)....than that information would be supplied to interested parties as part of the RFP, which was expected out by mid-March.

The first step in the RFP process is actually for interested parties to submit qualifications...than FDOT would shortlist...the shortliosted firms would then sharpen their pencils and by fall submit a Design-Build-Operate-Maintain-Finance proposal.

This makes no sense. 

I thought the entire FLHSR was contingent on getting the bulk of the money from the feds with the private sector to make up the difference.  If that isn't the case, then I'm all ears, but seems to me that FL just turned down the proposal, with the exception of a few who are pushing really hard at the thirteenth hour. 

My biggest concern is why aren't the private finances and plans in more order if they have known that we were getting the money to do the project?  Why are they playing the wait and see what the governor does game? 

I'm not against it TUFSU, but we aren't ready to hit the ground running, and I see a lot of that 'money' getting tied up in more planning and studies and not enough actual 'work.'  As we all know from local experience, this is exactly how a 3B federally funded job becomes a 7B job that the state is on the hook for the rest.  The private companies will make their money in studies (that they've probably already completed) and bail out mid-stream.

Here are the interested teams...some really big names on this list

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/storage/interested-firms/HighSpeedRailTeams_111210.pdf

The private sector teams haved been getting organized for over a year...but they aren't going to spend hundered of thousands of dollars of their own money (yes it will be that much) doing their full due diligence until the project is advertised....yes, the Feds have agreed to fund 90% lof the project, but the state is still the partner...so until the state releases a Request for Qualifications (RFQ) or a Request for Proposals (RFP) there is nothing "official" for the interested teams to respond to.

btw, the website also offers a quick 2-page fact sheet....it is good reading folks

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/storage/pi-docs/HSRProjectSummary121410.pdf

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 17, 2011, 10:00:58 PM
This makes no sense.  

My biggest concern is why aren't the private finances and plans in more order if they have known that we were getting the money to do the project?  Why are they playing the wait and see what the governor does game?  

I'm not against it TUFSU, but we aren't ready to hit the ground running, and I see a lot of that 'money' getting tied up in more planning and studies and not enough actual 'work.'  

Actually the bidding process had been stopped in its tracks as soon as Rick Scott was elected. I've been looking for that short article that I came across in Dec. I think, but unfortunately my google searches haven't unearthed it yet.

The point is that Scott didn't want the bidding process to proceed because he KNEW full well that private companies were willing to take on the risk with a federal hand-out of $2.4 billion. It's a well-known economic principle that the first one in the US market, will have the market cornered. These companies want to continue on to Miami and Jax!!!

Lets help make it happen:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Floridians-for-High-Speed-Rail-and-against-Governor-Rick-Scotts-Decision/142608585802230?sk=wall

QuoteIf the private sector required that protection in order to fund the California project, whose ridership potential is far higher than that in Florida, there is no way they would go unprotected in Florida.

Again, the numbers speak for themselves. Forget Billions in $$$, forget jobs, if the thing cannot pay for itself in California, there is no way this boondoggle can pay for itself here in Florida. I am shocked no one has an issue with an 84 mile project at 2.5 billion to create 40,000 temporary jobs. Few if any which would impact Jacksonville.

Aren't they California and Florida projects two different forms of HSR?  Does the California project already have the necessary ROW?  Aren't the soil conditions of our states different?  All of these things can be huge significant factors in terms of cost and feasibility, which makes a direct comparison of the two, useless.  Instead of making a long term decision either way, it won't hurt us to actually bid the thing out to the private sector and see what the results are.  I fail to see how that hurts Florida either way.

Also, long term jobs you're overlooking include those that will be created by manufacturing rail cars, maintaining system infrastructure, employment at rail stations, the railyard, support services for operations and through transit oriented development around station sites.

Also, long term jobs you're overlooking include those that will be created by manufacturing rail cars, maintaining system infrastructure, employment at rail stations, the railyard, support services for operations and through transit oriented development around station sites.

Almost all of those will be state jobs though, manufacturing rail cars may create a few short term jobs on occasion, but rail cars dont wear out often.  All the other jobs will be state run, meaning directly out of your pocket.  The major problem I have with it is the ludicrous ridership projections anywhere from 2.4 to 3 million a year.  Thats not going to happen and everyone knows it.  Plus the state gets stuck with this turkey and can never get rid of it, sort of like the skyway express.  I don't have a problem with rail where it makes sense, but sorry tampa to orlando is just plain stupid

The direct jobs (if allowed to move forward) would not be state jobs.  They would be through the private entity that has agreed to fund O&M for their system.

Btw, one of the HSR groups has Talgo as a part of their team.  They have expressed an interest in moving their railcar manufacturing operations to the state, if given the opportunity to operate the system.  Such a facility would also produce equipment for additional HSR orders throughout the country as the national network is constructed.  This would be an example of long term well paying jobs created by the project.  This thing is so much larger than Tampa and Orlando.  We shouldn't lock in with tunnel vision without first attempting to grasp the larger picture.

As for ridership numbers, my response is to stop guessing and open the bidding to the private sector.  They'll run their own numbers and make modifications to plans to ensure a feasible project worth their investment.  If its not feasible, then nothing will happen.  No one had a problem with doing this for the Outer Beltway.  What's the harm in doing it for this HSR project?

Quote from: civil42806 on February 18, 2011, 10:02:57 AM
Also, long term jobs you're overlooking include those that will be created by manufacturing rail cars, maintaining system infrastructure, employment at rail stations, the railyard, support services for operations and through transit oriented development around station sites.

exactly...several of the rail manufacturers have stated their interest in setting up shop in Florida....to build rail cars for all over the US...but why set up shop here if we're not interested?

Another example of why the project should be put out to bid.....

QuoteDoubts and controversy over Florida's high-speed rail venture aren't deterring high-powered European and Asian companies from lining up to bid on the project. Talgo Inc. figures to be at the head of the queue.

Eight global consortiums have expressed interest in building and operating the proposed 84-mile line connecting Tampa and Orlando.

One of the leading contenders, Florida Mobility Partners, is headed by Talgo, a Spanish-headquartered train operator that is expanding operations in America.

"This is a most important project for us. The number of trains involved is not very large, but it's significant because it's the first in the United States," Talgo America President Antonio Perez told Sunshine State News in an exclusive interview.

"The U.S. has large potential, and this is important from a strategic standpoint," he said.

Talgo's prospective competitors see the Florida project in much  the same way -- a beachhead for future business as the Obama administration pushes more high-speed rail ventures.

Like Talgo's team, the prospective bidders rely heavily on expertise from outside the United States. Among the consortiums expressing interest to the state:


Bechtel, Amtrak and France’s SNCF America.
Parsons and South Korea’s Samsung, Korail, KRTC, GRDC, KRRI, Korean Consortium and Korea Railway Association and Hyundai Rotem USA.
Florida High Speed Rail LLC; UK's Balfour Beatty Rail; United States’ HDR, Parsons Brinckerhoff, PCL Civil Constructors and Lane Construction; Japan’s Mitsubishi International, Central Japan Railway Co., Sumitomo Corp. and Japan Bank for International Cooperation.
Spain’s ACS Infrastructure Development and Dragados USA; United States’ T.Y. Lin International and GE Transportation; China’s TSDI, CSR SF China and CRCC China; and Brazil’s Odebrecht Infrastructure.
Florida Rail Ventures: Germany’s Siemens; France’s Veolia; Spain’s Global Via USA and FCC; United States’ Granite and Jacobs; and Sweden’s Skanska.
France’s Alstom and Vinci Concessions; Spain’s OHL USA; United States’ PBS&J, AECOM, Hubbard Construction and Archer Western Contractors; and UK's Virgin Group and Virgin Rail Group.
An incomplete consortium comprising United States’ Kiewit, Canada’s Bombardier and UK’s National Express.

Talgo's Perez believes that his Spain-centric team -- which includes contractors Ferrovial, Elecnor, Invensys Rail (UK), Prince (U.S.) and concessionaires Soares Da Costa and Cintra -- is best equipped to land the Florida job.

In America, Talgo trains have provided passenger service in the Pacific Northwest since 1994, and operate in other scattered regions around the country.

Prince, a lead contractor in the Talgo consortium, is headed by John D. Watson, a Florida State University graduate. The company has been involved in several transportation projects in the state, including I-595 expansions in Broward County.

As for high-speed rail, Talgo team partner Ferrovial Agroman has laid a quarter of Spain's high-speed track.

"Our group has lots of experience in transportation projects," Perez said. "We're used to taking risks in ridership that not all others are willing to take."

QuoteTalgo's Perez says his company is committed to the U.S. market. Last year, the firm opened a plant in Milwaukee to manufacture trains sets, but when Wisconsin canceled its high-speed rail plans, Talgo announced it would likely close or move the plant by 2012. Perez said Florida could be the site for building America's new generation of high-speed trains.

"We haven't determined where the high-speed rail trains would be built. We're open to looking elsewhere for a new facility," he said.

www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/talgo-race-florida-high-speed-train

For people to claim Florida needs jobs, it seems like we're doing everything to keep job creation from actually happening.

More info from South Florida....

QuoteFeds set Feb. 25 deadline for fast-rail deal

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood gave Florida a week to come up with a way to salvage the high-speed train that would link Orlando with Tampa or he will send $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money elsewhere.

LaHood set the Feb. 25 deadline after meeting briefly Thursday with five Democrats from Florida in the office of Sen. Bill Nelson in Washington.

They told LaHood they might try to arrange for the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority, Amtrak or the Tri-Rail commuter operation in South Florida to take responsibility for the high-speed train after Gov. Rick Scott rejected the offer of the Obama administration to pay for 90 percent of the $2.7 billion project.

The catch with any of those plans, however, is that they still might need Scott's approval. And the governor was skeptical of the idea.

"I don't believe we should be trying to push our counties into taking an irresponsible act in taking the risk of a high-speed-rail project," Scott said after emerging from a tour of the Florida Lottery offices Thursday.

Asked specifically whether he would say no to such a deal, Scott refused to answer.

full article: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/os-high-speed-rail-fate-20110217,0,3034072.story

Lake - Have you not been following what State Farm is asking for in the State of Florida in terms of their rate increase and the REASONS why they are asking for such a large premium increase?????

QuoteAren't the soil conditions of our states different?

Sinkholes? Draining the aquifer? Are earthquakes more dangerous than a sinkhole? Doesn't the train derail just the same? The insurance requirements along the Orlando to Tampa route are going to be HUGE compared to where they were before the Insurance companies asked for premium increases. And watch as State Farm gets a larger share, all will be asking for it.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2011/02/18/187036.htm (http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2011/02/18/187036.htm)

Quote"The U.S. has large potential, and this is important from a strategic standpoint," he said.

Fine, let California or New York be the test rabbit for the plan, let them build the HSR, and we can watch and see the mistakes they make. Who says you have to be first in this race?

Scott did say he was not against HSR, he said it was bad timing and not the right thing to do when counties are struggling  (to paraphrase a bit).

This isn't about being first in a race.  This isn't about being a Republican or Democrat or liking/disliking Obama either.  This is about taking advantage of economic opportunity, improving our transportation network and job creation in an economically depressed state.  I'll continue to say the same non partisan thing I've been stating on this HSR topic ever since private companies began saying they'll assume the State's financial risks. 

What's the harm in putting it out to bid and seeing what the results are?  The private sector claims they'll assume all financial risks, build and operate the thing.  Give them a chance to bid and put their money where their mouth is.  Unless, we're afraid that some group will actually step up to the plate.  My guess is that if some group steps up, they'll modify the final product in a manner that makes it more feasible for all.

QuoteThe private sector claims they'll assume all financial risks, build and operate the thing.

Nelson and Mica should cut their losses and focus on building consensus projects with the Governor. All this running around behind is back will do nothing but set future funding projects back further.

Governor Scott has made some enemies with this that will undoubtedly cost Florida other opportunities.  I will not be surprised to see Savanna's port become a favorite with the current administration.

John Mica is the true Rat Rail supporter!

As much as he was against Scott turning down the $2.4 billion for HSR, and even joined with key Democrats at a Press Conference after he was absent from the actual Democratic meeting, he is now working his own little plan to save ONLY the Mickey's Flying Train portion of Florida's HSR.

As a commenter says:

QuoteBreaking News! Congressman “For” Mica saves Disney High speed rail plan! Problem is with rail speed at 100 MPH people will arrive and be “dizzy” at the Magic KingDumb before they depart at whorelando international airport!

http://www.postonpolitics.com/2011/02/mica-crafts-rail-run-around-scott/

It's hilarious!!

As tufsu1 knows, I gave credit to Mica for speaking up unquivocably for Florida HSR after Scott's reckless turndown of $2.4 billion for Florida, but this new-fangled idea is just supporting the Rat Rail part and doesn't even come close to being a "national first" for HSR in the US.

don't be surprise as  amtrak fec line be  funded because 118 million in rick scott budget for that line

Quote from: FayeforCure on February 18, 2011, 10:17:31 PM
John Mica is the true Rat Rail supporter!

As much as he was against Scott turning down the $2.4 billion for HSR, and even joined with key Democrats at a Press Conference after he was absent from the actual Democratic meeting, he is now working his own little plan to save ONLY the Mickey's Flying Train portion of Florida's HSR.

Well Mica's plan to build HSR only from Orlando's airport to Disney has already been shot down by the feds.  Its all or nothing.

QuoteFederal officials balk at scaled-back plan for Florida high-speed rail

WASHINGTON â€" Federal officials on Saturday balked at a scaled-back plan for high-speed rail proposed by a powerful Florida congressman, giving hope to advocates for an entire Orlando-to-Tampa line but underscoring the efforts' shaky status.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, wants to dramatically shrink the project to an Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World link.

Chairman of the House transportation committee, Mica contends it's the best way to get the project rolling and overcome the problem presented by Gov. Rick Scott's rejection of $2.4 billion in federal funding.

But Sen. Bill Nelson spoke with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood on Saturday and said later that federal officials are saying "no" to Mica's plan, which would be limited to 21 miles in the Orlando area. The idea was to connect large metropolitan areas and quickly move people between them.

full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article1152714.ece

That just makes me want to smack Mica... Anyways that plan is absolutely stupid, John Mica needs to forget about re-election after some stupid move like that. You DON'T need a HSR to Disney, if they want that then have them expand their Monorail, gosh the nerve. I think of the two cities, Orlando has their end of the HSR messed up the most.

Why not link the Sunrail with the HSR...? Freaking retards.

Sunrail was supposed to link with HSR.  A line to the airport was in the works when it was thought that HSR had a chance of becoming a reality.  Out of all the cities involved with the original HSR line, Orlando was the one that had its act in order.

mhmm, note taken. If this ever becomes reality they do need to link the two, because if they are going to miss the Orlando metro area, they need to at least have a link to the metro area. No one wants to drive to the airport to ride a train, they go there to ride an airplane.

They would not have too. Sunrail will run from Kissimmee to Deland.  Any Orlando resident wanting to connect to HSR would head to their local Sunrail station and take that train to the intermodal terminal. By the way, I spent some time walking around in Winter Park today. Anyone who thinks people would have to rent a car once they got to Orlando because of a lack of mass transit, should reevaluate that position.  While Sunrail doesn't hit every spot of Metro Orlando (no fixed rail system does this in any American city), it does connect a ton of urban walkable nodes.  Anyway, here are a few images I snapped today around Winter Park's Sunrail station site.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Winter-Park-February-2010/P1440695/1192260455_E5hDK-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Winter-Park-February-2010/P1440752/1192266780_WQibf-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Winter-Park-February-2010/P1440701/1192261225_bhgcd-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Winter-Park-February-2010/P1440756/1192267228_2Znsm-M.jpg)

Quote from: Mattius92 on February 19, 2011, 07:30:10 PM
That just makes me want to smack Mica... Anyways that plan is absolutely stupid, John Mica needs to forget about re-election after some stupid move like that. You DON'T need a HSR to Disney, if they want that then have them expand their Monorail, gosh the nerve. I think of the two cities, Orlando has their end of the HSR messed up the most.

Why not link the Sunrail with the HSR...? Freaking retards.

Uh Mattius, the current FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL PLAN, goes from the Orlando Airport, to International Drive (tourist traps), to DISNEY, then to a college, and Lakeland, and finally a Rosa Parks like bus stop in Tampa. What Mica is suggesting is that the Disney-College-Lakeland-Tampa Bus Stop segment doesn't need to be built now. Frankly, NONE OF THIS ROUTE should be built, at least not as HIGH SPEED RAIL.

Mica is not the one that proposes this thing from OIA to DISNEY, this harebrained handout of public funds to Disney and Sea World, has been the plan all along... Just one more reason why this plan stinks to high heavens.

OCKLAWAHA

Disney is okay on a Tampa-Orlando plan, but just a Disney-OIA route is a failure waiting to happen.

I do agree with Ock, about that stations and the route, the Tampa end needs to be more in the urban core, Lakeland is okay, OIA is okay, but from OIA it needs to go more into downtown Orlando.

The other stations are iffy, except maybe Disney because thats a major attraction.

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 08:04:43 PM
I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree and thats good news if Legoland ties in, because that will really boost ridership on the HSR. Even if its kept the same, that tie in would be tremendous.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 08:04:43 PM
I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

So true. In Europe the same track is used for both express and local service. I can take the "non-stop" out of Amsterdam, or what they call the stop train that would take twice as long to get to where I'm going.

BTW, thanks for those beautiful shots of pedestrians in Winter Park!! What a vibrant beautiful town.......used to be my favorite place for summer jazz concerts in the park when I lived in Kissimmee for 6 years.

I don't know where I fit in statistics or studies, but if I lived in Orlando and wanted to catch the HSR, I wouldn't drive to the airport and put up with parking hassles. I'd take the bus. Assuming I lived at a random point in the metro area, chances are I'd be closer to a bus than a SunRail stop anyway. Just an anecdote. People seem too reluctant to mention LYNX.

Even though I think in terms of a resident, I also think the tourist pandering makes sense. Continuous stream of carless tourists coming off of planes with very certain destinations? I'd tap that, too. Orlandoans going to Tampa + willing to part with their cars?  :-X Would need a few drinks...

Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 20, 2011, 11:03:48 AM
Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

It does matter, their successes and failures will hopefully be seen by our city leaders, and maybe they will actually get a good idea. If Jacksonville had anything like the SunRail I would feel so much better about my city. I was born and raised in Jacksonville, but when it boils down, I am a Floridian at heart.

I do agree that they probably don't give a damn about Jacksonville, thats because is that quite northern (Florida) city that most people outside of Florida probably have only heard about once or twice in their life.

Quote from: rainfrog on February 20, 2011, 06:40:18 AM
I don't know where I fit in statistics or studies, but if I lived in Orlando and wanted to catch the HSR, I wouldn't drive to the airport and put up with parking hassles. I'd take the bus. Assuming I lived at a random point in the metro area, chances are I'd be closer to a bus than a SunRail stop anyway. Just an anecdote. People seem too reluctant to mention LYNX.

Even though I think in terms of a resident, I also think the tourist pandering makes sense. Continuous stream of carless tourists coming off of planes with very certain destinations? I'd tap that, too. Orlandoans going to Tampa + willing to part with their cars?  :-X Would need a few drinks...

That's a major portion of the problem with the current plan and why it needs to be dumped in favor of a complete realignment. NOBODY IN ORLANDO, ASSUMING THEY LIVE WITHIN 30 MINUTES OF THE AIRPORT IS GOING TO GO TO THE AIRPORT TO CATCH A TRAIN. ...And all those car-less tourists? They number just about ZERO. Everybody coming in at those gates has a car rental, relative, bus ticket or more then likely a complete package and the motor coaches are sitting outside the door. NONE of them will be reading that tour brochure in ADELAIDE or RIO or HAMBURG and thinking to themselves, "Wow, Florida has this really cool 80 mile train, I wonder if we can skip the tour bus and just ride back and forth for two weeks?"  IT AIN'T GONNA FLY WILBUR.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 08:04:43 PM
I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree in principal with what your saying Lake, BUT, the line to the airport would need to be severed out near Sand Lake Road, and from there into SANFORD, it would follow the CSX alignment. Likewise in Hillsboroough it needs to leave the freeway either at POLK PARKWAY and I-4 at Plant City, or between 38th and 50th and I-4 in Tampa - contrary to what has been reported here "there was no way to make the turn into Union Station from I-4," either of these would pick up the CSX at the correct angles within a couple of city blocks. I dare say moving a suburban mini-storage, uniform service, and granite monument company would be cheaper then blowing a hole across Morgan, Marion, Florida, Franklin, Tampa and Ashley Streets near downtown Tampa.

Quote from: FayeforCure on February 20, 2011, 02:46:43 AM
So true. In Europe the same track is used for both express and local service. I can take the "non-stop" out of Amsterdam, or what they call the stop train that would take twice as long to get to where I'm going.

...And in some cases the same track is used for freight and passenger services, something that worked with old school technology from 1940-71 in the Northeast and Chicago area's with passenger trains that regularly topped out well above 100 mph.

The best case would be to get the railroad off the middle of the interstate, if for no other reason then it misses most of the population between Orlando and Tampa. Thus another false claim "It will help prevent SPRAWL!" Not on the I-4 alignment it won't, it will force sprawl, as every community located some miles to the south vies to push itself to the tracks. Local and Express trains on the same track is a no brainer.

OCKLAWAHA

When you talk about local and express trains on the same track, are you talking about the HSR as the express?  That is not what I encountered in Spain.  Their HSR, AVE, ran on a separate track.  They did have 'express' trains on the regular track (not HSR) but they were 'express' because they didn't stop at as many local stations.

QuoteAlta Velocidad Española (AVE) is a service of high-speed trains operating at speeds of up to 300 km/h (186 mph) on dedicated track in Spain. The name is literally translated from Spanish as "Spanish High Speed", but also a play on the word ave, meaning "bird".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE)

In the US, the Acela is a form of HSR rail.  The infrastructure it runs on also carries freight, regular amtrak intercity trains and commuter rail.  There is no reason, we can't do that here in Florida, if desired.

QuoteThe Northeast Corridor consists of tracks between Boston, Springfield, Massachusetts, New York City and Washington D.C. with multiple trains per day.

The Atlantic City Express Service is a train to/from Atlantic City on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. The Cardinal is a second train to/from Chicago through Washington D.C. along the Northeast Corridor on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. Both the Atlantic City Express Service and the Cardinal run three days a week. Amtrak accounts for about 14% of all intercity trips between Northeast Corridor cities and its branches. The rest of these intercity trips are taken by airline, automobile, or coach.[2]

Amtrak and other long-distance trains serving Northeast Corridor stations:

Acela Express - high-speed rail from Boston to Washington.
Adirondack- to/from Montreal along the Empire Corridor.
New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Express Service- to/from Frankford Junction on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Timing varies by day of the week.
Capitol Limited (Amtrak train) - to/from Chicago and Washington D.C..
Cardinal - to/from Chicago through Washington D.C. along the Northeast Corridor on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. Timing varies by day of the week.
Carolinian - to/from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Crescent - to/from New Orleans.
Empire Service- local service to/from Niagara Falls along the Empire Corridor. Most trains terminate at and start from Albany, with two trains continuing to/from Niagara Falls. On the westbound journey to Niagara Falls, there are two trains daily. On the eastbound journey, there is one daily train, and the timing of the second train varies by day of the week.
Ethan Allen Express- to/from Rutland along the Empire Corridor, timing varies by day of the week.
Keystone Service - local service along the Northeast Corridor to Philadelphia, and along the Keystone Corridor to/from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Timings vary by day of the week in each direction, and some trains terminate at and start from Philadelphia.
Lake Shore Limited- to/from Chicago along the Northeast Corridor in Boston, and Empire Corridor between Depew, New York and New York City.
Maple Leaf- to/from Toronto along the Empire Corridor.
New Haven-Springfield Shuttle from New Haven to Springfield, Massachusetts, through the New Haven-Springfield Line.
Northeast Regional - local service along the Northeast Corridor, from Boston, Massachusetts or Springfield, Massachusetts through the New Haven-Springfield Line, and New York City to Washington D.C., Richmond, Virginia, Newport News, Virginia, and Lynchburg, Virginia. Most trains run from Boston, Massachusetts or Springfield, Massachusetts through the New Haven-Springfield Line, and New York City to Washington D.C.. There are multiple trains daily to and from Richmond, Virginia and Newport News, Virginia, but some trains terminate at and start from Richmond, Virginia, while others head to and from Newport News, Virginia. One is a daily train, but for other trains, the timings will vary by day of the week. There is one daily train to Lynchburg, Virginia, and its timing varies by day of the week.
Palmetto - to/from Savannah, Georgia.
Pennsylvanian - to/from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania along the Northeast Corridor and Keystone Corridor.
Silver Meteor - to/from Miami.
Silver Star - to/from Miami.
Vermonter - to/from St. Albans, Vermont through the Northeast Corridor and New Haven-Springfield Line.

Commuter rail

In addition to Amtrak, several commuter rail agencies operate passenger service using the Northeast Corridor tracks.

MARC Penn Line - Washington to Perryville, Maryland on Mondays to Fridays only.
MBTA Providence/Stoughton Line from T. F. Green Airport in Warwick, Rhode Island, to Boston.
MBTA Franklin Line from Hyde Park, to Boston.
MBTA Needham Line from Ruggles, to Boston.
MBTA Framingham/Worcester Line from Back Bay Station, to Boston.
Metro-North Railroad New Haven Line from New Rochelle, New York, to New Haven.
Metro-North Railroad Danbury Branch, from Norwalk to Danbury, Connecticut.
Metro-North Railroad New Canaan Branch, from Stamford to New Canaan, Connecticut.
Metro-North Railroad Waterbury Branch, from Stratford to Waterbury, Connecticut.
New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Frankford Junction).
New Jersey Transit Northeast Corridor Line from Trenton to New York.
New Jersey Transit North Jersey Coast Line from Rahway to New York.
New Jersey Transit Morristown Line from Secaucus Junction to New York.
New Jersey Transit Gladstone Branch from Secaucus Junction to New York.
New Jersey Transit Montclair-Boonton Line from Secaucus Junction to New York.
SEPTA Airport Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Phil Interlocking in Southwest Philadelphia).
SEPTA Wilmington/Newark Line from Newark, Delaware, to Philadelphia.
SEPTA Media/Elwyn Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Arsenal Junction in University City).
SEPTA Trenton Line from Philadelphia to Trenton, New Jersey.
SEPTA Chestnut Hill West Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to North Philadelphia Station).
Shore Line East from Stamford, Connecticut, to New London, Connecticut.

QuoteFreight service

Freight service is provided on the Northeast Corridor by trackage rights. The Norfolk Southern Railway operates over the line south of Philadelphia, and CSX Transportation has rights from New York to New Haven and in Massachusetts. CSX also has rights between Landover, MD and Bowie, MD, where the CSX Landover Subdivision and Pope's Creek Subdivision, respectively, diverge from the NEC. Between Philadelphia and New York, Conrail, which formerly provided service on the whole line, still operates over the line, as a local switching and terminal company for both CSX and Norfolk Southern. (See Conrail Shared Assets Operations.) The Providence and Worcester Railroad operates local freight service from New Haven into Rhode Island and has incidental trackage rights from New Haven to New York.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 20, 2011, 07:39:09 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 08:04:43 PM
I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree in principal with what your saying Lake, BUT, the line to the airport would need to be severed out near Sand Lake Road, and from there into SANFORD, it would follow the CSX alignment. Likewise in Hillsboroough it needs to leave the freeway either at POLK PARKWAY and I-4 at Plant City, or between 38th and 50th and I-4 in Tampa - contrary to what has been reported here "there was no way to make the turn into Union Station from I-4," either of these would pick up the CSX at the correct angles within a couple of city blocks. I dare say moving a suburban mini-storage, uniform service, and granite monument company would be cheaper then blowing a hole across Morgan, Marion, Florida, Franklin, Tampa and Ashley Streets near downtown Tampa.

These things aren't make or break (definitely not enough to send a one time $2.4 billion gift to another state with nothing in return) and modifications can be made to alleviate many of them.  For example, if you want to go to Sanford, connect to Sunrail.  In DT Tampa, if its not feasible to get HSR into Union Station, perhaps its time to look towards local transit to tie the two together.  Btw, how many Amtrak trains come into Tampa's Union Station a day?  It can't be more than 3 or 4.  If that's the case, I definitely would not advocate trashing a chance at that much cash, because it doesn't tie in directly with sleepy Union Station.

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 20, 2011, 11:03:48 AM
Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

without the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2011, 10:37:38 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 20, 2011, 11:03:48 AM
Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

without the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

IF IT IS BUILT, according to the current scheme (it's quite short of a plan) there is no reason to EVER expect it to be more then an OIA-DISNEY-TAMPA parking shuttle. EVER!

I agree with Lake, and I believe FAYE, FSUJAX, STEPHENDARE, and YOURSELF would all agree that if they'd let us remold it THROUGH the corridor, get it into the traditional terminals, and otherwise have all of the trappings of VERY HIGH SPEED RAIL, we'd all be dancing in the streets... Justifiably awaiting OUR train.

OCKLAWAHA

Quotewithout the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

Well, we are still waiting on the Skyway to go somewhere, maybe the sports complex, but I bet we see the Skyway go somewhere before we see HSR come to Jax. HSR will go to Miami before it comes to Jax. We'll never see it in our lifetimes in Jax.

^Considering that we could extend the Skyway into San Marco for less than 0.1% of the cost of HSR between Tampa & Orlando, I would hope that would happen first.

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 21, 2011, 07:15:06 PM

Quotewithout the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

Well, we are still waiting on the Skyway to go somewhere, maybe the sports complex, but I bet we see the Skyway go somewhere before we see HSR come to Jax. HSR will go to Miami before it comes to Jax. We'll never see it in our lifetimes in Jax.

Probably so.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2011, 10:37:38 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 20, 2011, 11:03:48 AM
Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

without the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

It needs to start somewhere and it sure as heck won't start in Jax!! Yet Jax will be a natural once Miami is hooked in.

QuoteNelson said he was undisturbed by Scott's continued objections to the train. He said he has arranged for attorneys from the U.S. Department of Transportation to meet with the governor to draw up an agreement that would hold the state harmless from any cost overruns. It also would protect the state if a private company â€" chosen to build and operate the train â€" should walk away from the project, he said.

That gathering could occur as early as this morning in Tallahassee, as train supporters battle a Friday deadline set by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood for the state to either accept the federal money or see it go to another state.

Backers of the train had expected to issue bid proposals in March to the eight consortia of international companies that have expressed interest in building and operating the train, making clear that the winner would have to pay the state's $280 million share of the project, absorb any construction cost overruns; and operate the rail line for 20 years with no state subsidy.

But Scott last week pre-empted that process, relying on a study by a libertarian think tank that concluded â€" using a California high-speed proposal â€" that Florida's costs were as much as $3 billion too low. He also said ridership projections of 3 million a year were too optimistic, though the study showing that has not been released.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/os-high-speed-rail-talks-20110221,0,7053799.story

Quote from: FayeforCure on February 21, 2011, 10:24:00 PM
It needs to start somewhere and it sure as heck won't start in Jax!! Yet Jax will be a natural once Miami is hooked in.

Apparently the HSR folks have a VERY LOOSE definition of "a natural."  My guess is that it would have to be on the map, somewhere, maybe, and we could build a station there... no other considerations are needed...

YEP JACKSONVILLE IS A NATURAL!

(Psst. don't hold your breath anyone because this is the most UNNATURAL project ever conceived in Florida.)

OCKLAWAHA

Nelson has asked the federal government for another extension before the $2.4 billion for Florida High Speed Rail is sent to California!!

QuoteSupporters also produced a letter from the Orlando-based Gray/Robinson law firm saying a proposal put together by Orlando, Miami, Tampa and Lakeland would have held the state harmless and placed all the risk on the private company that would build and operate the train.

“Florida shall have no financial responsibility for the cost overruns, the operating shortfalls or the refund payments,” the six-page opinion letter concluded.

And the U.S. Department of Transportation issued a statement saying the agency “has addressed every legitimate concern Governor Scott has raised with respect to plans to connect Florida through high-speed rail. We have repeatedly and clearly told Governor Scott and his staff that Florida would not bear financial or legal liabilities for the project, and that there is strong private sector interest in taking on the risk associated with building and operating high-speed rail in the state.”

Florida’s money undoubtedly will be sent to other states, such as California, that are pursuing fast trains. One economic study of the proposal indicated it would create 24,000 construction jobs and 1,000 permanent jobs in Florida.

“I am devastated that Florida will lose thousands and thousands of new jobs to other states,’’ said U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa. “We need those jobs and economic opportunities here. The governor's decision sends a terrible message to businesses that are looking at Florida for investment and hiring opportunities.”

Scott had been given until Friday to reconsider by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who is overseeing the high-speed initiative nationwide.

Nelson said he has asked LaHood for a time extension. LaHood, Nelson said, was considering the request. LaHood’s office did not comment on Nelson’s remark.

Scott repeated Thursday that the train was too risky of a proposition.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/critics-blast-scott-over-high-speed-train-1279972.html

Common Rick, where is the risk? Please explain!

Here is hoping Rick Scott will see there is NO Risk to Florida in accepting the federal funds......it's a total win, win for Florida!!

QuoteFlorida gets an extra week to reconsider refusal of $2.4 billion in funding for a major high-speed rail project before the money is sent to other eager states.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood agreed during a meeting in Washington on Friday to provide Republican Gov. Rick Scott with an additional week to reevaluate the decision before reallocating the funds to other states such as New York and Maryland that requested a portion of the additional funds.

During the meeting, LaHood provided the governor additional information on the proposed Florida high-speed rail project between Tampa and Orlando. LaHood has said he worked with former Gov. Charlie Crist "to make sure we eliminated all financial risk for the state, instead requiring private businesses competing for the project to assume cost overruns and operating expenses."

"I am grateful the governor has agreed to listen to the facts on how the state will have no financial responsibility in high speed rail," said Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.). "I’m especially grateful to Secretary LaHood for giving Florida at least one more week before our money goes to another state.

Hopefully, this will be enough time for people of good intentions to come together and put Florida’s interests first. There is too much at stake for us not to try everything we can."

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/appropriations/146207-florida-gets-an-extra-week-to-think-about-high-speed-rail-funds