Bar/restaurant owners will need to get a special permit(no word on how many permits will be issued) to be able to sell alcohol past midnight.
Ordinance passed 5-2 tonight.
A sad day for Jacksonville Beach.
Just another reason to tax small businesses. Maybe this encourage people to go downtown.
I'm officially never coming back to NE FL. I can't be around such blatant stupidity.
I don't even drink (well I try not to ;)), but I'm at a loss of words here. This kind of decision making makes me want to just scream.
NE FL basically tells everyone that graduated from a good college and wants to have a productive but fun professional career "STAY AWAY!!!! We only want to attract blue collar families, preferably Baptists since they don't drink and are pure as the wind driven snow, and retirees who forgot to save."
OMG, I will officially not even be able to go to sleep tonight after hearing this. I have doubtfully heard of a sillier shoot yourself in the foot piece of legislation. That whole town is held hostage and run by a bunch of loser beach bum high school dropouts who are "afraid to cross 'the ditch'" and who sit around on the crappy front porches of their crappy beach shacks smoking j's and drinking Buds all day every day (well that and growing out their hair, getting tattoos, riding their Sector 9s, surfing if they can even still get up, and failing to keep up a marriage).
Then we have Hunstville lady who hasn't even been here a decade (just a couple years actually) before she helped ram through the 35 ft. height limit. I think in her own words she did not want future growth taking away "the view." Then we have all the residents who continuously complain about drunken parties and crime in the area when it's their own kids and they themselves most likely have 20 bongs lying around their crappy house.
It's just too frustrating to even pay attention to NE FL anymore. I try to remain so hopeful, boosting my hometown and trying to do what I can from a distance, but it's futile. Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, heck Nashville, Austin, Charlotte, San Diego, etc etc one of you will become my permanent hometown some day and the high COL and traffic will be worth it!! Oh wait, I already live in Midtown Atlanta ha :D
Quote from: fieldafm on February 07, 2011, 11:06:16 PM
Bar/restaurant owners will need to get a special permit(no word on how many permits will be issued) to be able to sell alcohol past midnight.
Ordinance passed 5-2 tonight.
A sad day for Jacksonville Beach.
I agree.
It now makes that Jbill resolution to amend the state charter for a special urban transition area in Riverside having everyone saying "We need another round over here."
Past midnight why even open then. I keep telling myself to hold on, but things are shaping up now inorder for me to get out of this city. Life is too short to piss it away here waiting for change that will never come.
Maybe these establishments will consider moving to downtown. One can only hope. Maybe someone will start a campaign for that to happen.
people...the special permit will cost $75 a year....so don't get your hopes up about bars moving to downtown because of it....they'll pay the fee and stay where they are.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 08:40:01 AM
people...the special permit will cost $75 a year....so don't get your hopes up about bars moving to downtown because of it....they'll pay the fee and stay where they are.
Seriously???? IF they're going to rob the business owners, do it the old fashioned way and put a gun to their head. Don't insult them by making them buy a permit that they know is useless.
Last night I overheard a news broadcast about this. The reporter said "the area north of beach boulevard is a mad house, often overrun with people until the early hours of the morning". This should be what we're going for!!!!!!!! The problem, as they perceive it, is that well funded people close to the administration are the only ones able to get liquor licenses, which has caused an isolated concentration of bars. If it was easier to get a liquor license in Jax beach, there would be more places, spread out over greater distances with lower density. This is a problem of their own creation, but now they're penalizing the bar owners. That's Jacksonville For Ya!
If we had more than one walkable nightlife district within 15 miles, we wouldn't have this problem. When you give 15,000 young people one option for nightlife, you're going to get a crowd.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 08, 2011, 07:59:00 AM
Past midnight why even open then. I keep telling myself to hold on, but things are shaping up now inorder for me to get out of this city. Life is too short to piss it away here waiting for change that will never come.
Yeah. I don't even drink or go out past midnight all that often, but this whole place is turning into a wannabe retirement community.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 08:40:01 AM
people...the special permit will cost $75 a year....so don't get your hopes up about bars moving to downtown because of it....they'll pay the fee and stay where they are.
Same logic you used about how all the downtown corporations would pay for parking.
Except they all left.
Quote from: Bativac on February 08, 2011, 10:07:17 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 08, 2011, 07:59:00 AM
Past midnight why even open then. I keep telling myself to hold on, but things are shaping up now inorder for me to get out of this city. Life is too short to piss it away here waiting for change that will never come.
Yeah. I don't even drink or go out past midnight all that often, but this whole place is turning into a wannabe retirement community.
Thank God I'm out and probably only going further within a year! Wannabe retirement community is the key. The only retirees I see coming here are those who forgot to save any money.
Excluding Ponte Vedra, Northeast Florida literally shuns anyone with any disposable income/savings. This includes the 22-35 college educated group who may want to go out on the town once/twice a week, shock *past midnight*. Jacksonville already shuts down at 8 anyway, it's not like much will change.
Edit: WHen will we be seeing this in the news? I can't find any sources.
I haven't seen anything on the local news websites regarding this, but I've been hearing rumblings about this for some time.
There are only 12 liquor licenses (unrestricted 4COP) in the city of jacksonville beach; they put a moratorium on new licenses some time ago. The other establishments are restaurants with SRX licenses (aka 51/49's where 51% of gross receipts must be food and the kitchen must be open at all time when liquor is being sold).
The problem (as they see it) is that the businesses with SRX licenses are operating their businesses as though they have 4COP licenses. Snappers, Fionn McCool's and another (I forget who) were recently cited by the DABT for not having sales that match their required percentages (repeated infractions result in the loss of license) . Clearly the businesses who've paid the exorbitant amount for their 4COP license (current value $400k) in Jax beach don't want the additional competition for the late night drinking crowd and moreover the DABT (state run, not local) wildly expects license holders to follow the rules they set.
This restriction, I assume, will only affect those businesses with SRX licenses.
Now who's up for dinner at Snappers? I'm buying...
In regards to the SRX licenses, the owner of Chicago Pizza made the best case... basically saying 'they can't restrict me to only serve food on certain hours and only serve drinks at other hours in order to achice my 51/49 split'
I thought his more in depth answer was a compelling case.
Another thing some of you aren't thinking about... there is nothing stopping Jax Beach from restricting the amount of these permits they would issue. Think about that for a moment.
Simms, FoxNews(or ActionNews, I hate saying that name) was out there last night... Im sure they may have something on it.
I can assure you that Jax does not shut down at 8 though, although I'm sure I wish it did some nights... especially the morning after ;D
Rockstar,
Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't aware of the entities with SRX licenses. I knew the unrestricted liquor licenses were expensive, but $400,000 is a ton. You can't really blame the bars for trying to get around that fee. I've never heard of anyone actually eating at Fionn McCools.
I also feel like Rush Street and Chicago agreement probably have an ownership structure that allows them to count Chicago Pizza revenue as a part of that 51%. I don't think Rush has any food, but I doubt they have a 4COP as well. This is a perfect example of GOB networks stifling the market supply, while demand is huge. There's so much potential for the Jax beach area, but it's being suppressed by these draconian policies.
Well, I just saw a piece on "action" news 47... hard to discern from their reporting (incredibly short of any real journalism...) but it appears that Jax Beach might require all establishments to pay for this permit. Then they (action news) made it sound like last call was being moved to midnight...
I like that the mayor of Jax beach owns one of the bars there...I wonder how this will affect his re-election campaign promise of "Jagerbombs for Everyone"...
Coverage you can count on.
I'm sorry but Jacksonville does shut down at 8. It may be typical for a metro of 1.3 million, but it is *dead*, even on weekends (and Charlotte and Nashville aren't too much larger and they both have great nightlife). Last call at midnight in one of the city's only two "nightlife" areas. This is just the kind of thing that makes me never want to have ties to the city ever again because it's just too embarassing. (This is just one of the many things)
I just think that it's funny that a poverty stricken beach town run by bums, high school dropouts, stoners, and lifelong surfers with leather for skin made this happen.
This rule is something that would actually be appropriate in Ponte Vedra, but I doubt that even they care. I remember when family friends from S FL came up last year because they had a house in PVB, too, and they took me to dinner at a beach hibachi restaurant. We arrived at 10 and they almost closed. We had to beg them to stay open and this might have been a Thursday or Friday. The whole metro, even the beaches, are **dead**. It's torturouse for me when I visit and I can comfortably turn my brights on at 8:30 at night knowing I won't bug any other non-existent drivers on the road at that time.
I received an email from someone yesterday and I replied that I couldn't do something at the time because I received 3-4 hours of sleep a night and that my life was in warp speed and in no indication of slowing down anytime soon. Well this is typical for people in most places, but in Jax it's like people sleep 20 hours a day and go to First Baptist the other 4 hours of the day (oh and they fit in some fried food in there too). At the beaches I guess they sleep 20 hours, wake and bake, surf for a couple hours, put down some brewskis (while it's light out?), and go back to sleep.
Quote from: simms3 on February 08, 2011, 12:46:29 PM
I'm sorry but Jacksonville does shut down at 8. It may be typical for a metro of 1.3 million, but it is *dead*, even on weekends (and Charlotte and Nashville aren't too much larger and they both have great nightlife). Last call at midnight in one of the city's only two "nightlife" areas. This is just the kind of thing that makes me never want to have ties to the city ever again because it's just too embarassing. (This is just one of the many things)
You are dead on about the city shutting down at 8. A city this big should have more of a night life.
Of course, Jacksonville is so spread out, the activity would be confined to a few hotspots here and there, and maybe some strip malls along Beach and Atlantic. There's life but you gotta look for it. But I don't think Jacksonville is alone among other cities in that regard.
I remember when I lived in Portland, Maine there was a whole area of towntown called the "Old Port." Even in the dead of winter, there were crowds and places open... bars, restaurants, etc.
Jacksonville and the Beaches are run -- and are full of -- conservative older people, whether republican or democrat, black or white.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 08:40:01 AM
people...the special permit will cost $75 a year....so don't get your hopes up about bars moving to downtown because of it....they'll pay the fee and stay where they are.
Same logic you used about how all the downtown corporations would pay for parking.
stop trying to always pick a fight...I didn't say the fee was a good idea (actually it is awful) but it isn't going to cause bars to shut down.
btw, I would be surprised if I ever said this about parking...if I did, please show me.
I read about people not coming back to JAX on this thread. But that's not the answer, If we all left it would completely kill our push for an urban environment for a few decades. Then maybe (a very big maybe) Those who are just babies now, may try again to take up this cause, but the movement would have to start from scratch. That could take decades more to get back to where we are now. Let's just keep on pushing for change, we'll get it sooner or later.
If you can't find something to do in this city past 8pm, you simply ARENT LOOKING.
My suggestion is to get off your couch. I only stay in 1 maybe 2 nights a week. More often than not, I simply don't have the time to do all that I want to do. True story.
BTW, back on topic... this is a bad idea and will have unintended consequences for Jax Beach(after finally becoming a nice place to be, which was totally the opposite for most of my life).
Case in point, height restrictions. All those dense developments everybody loves and wants more of now, aren't as economically viable anymore b/c of said height restrictions. City officials have even admitted as such.
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: Bativac on February 08, 2011, 12:53:55 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 08, 2011, 12:46:29 PM
I'm sorry but Jacksonville does shut down at 8. It may be typical for a metro of 1.3 million, but it is *dead*, even on weekends (and Charlotte and Nashville aren't too much larger and they both have great nightlife). Last call at midnight in one of the city's only two "nightlife" areas. This is just the kind of thing that makes me never want to have ties to the city ever again because it's just too embarassing. (This is just one of the many things)
You are dead on about the city shutting down at 8. A city this big should have more of a night life.
Of course, Jacksonville is so spread out, the activity would be confined to a few hotspots here and there, and maybe some strip malls along Beach and Atlantic. There's life but you gotta look for it. But I don't think Jacksonville is alone among other cities in that regard.
I remember when I lived in Portland, Maine there was a whole area of towntown called the "Old Port." Even in the dead of winter, there were crowds and places open... bars, restaurants, etc.
Jacksonville and the Beaches are run -- and are full of -- conservative older people, whether republican or democrat, black or white.
I don't know if that is really the problem, Bativac, or if it is that we tend to honor the squawking of the squeaky wheel too much. If you paid attention to the Berkman Plaza thread, you could see this enormous sense of entitlement on the part of a few of the residents.
They made a choice to live in an urban environment, which turned out to be a poor choice for their personal lives, and instead of taking responsibility on any level whatsoever, they simply expected the rest of the city to change to conform to them and went around for weeks threatening to 'sue the shit out of' anyone who didnt share their entitled view of the universe.
Im from the Beaches (I grew up a couple of blocks from the ocean and went to Fletcher Jr and Sr) and over the past few years, an ugly generation of 40 something year olds has been increasingly visible down there, as they have been everywhere. Unfortunately reasonable people try to be accomodating, and pushy people demand to be accomodated. I don't think its so much about old conservatives (you do see them at public meetings, but the real loudmouths are the Ugly Gen X hoity toits, and they are neither conservative nor older than 45. Just obnoxious.) as it is about a fundamental balance being tilted towards a pretty selfish point of view on the part of a few.
At some point there has to be pushback and a willingness to live together.
I think you have a point. I don't really think that conservative middle-aged people "run" everything, but it's like you said, they bark the loudest and are tended to by the people who DO run things. A lot of us in our late 20s and early 30s grew up here, spent time in other places, then came back and have just gotten a little tired of the constant promises of urban renewal and the fits-and-starts style of downtown and urban development.
We cast our ballots appropriately but in the meantime we have lives to live, and we reach a point where we'd rather live those lives in a place already full of a vibrant urban environment instead of waiting for Jacksonville to come along. I mean, we made an investment - my wife and I bought a house in an older neighborhood, close to the core, and (as an artist) I've partnered with a writer and done public speaking for at-risk inner city kids on the Northside. But the fact is that people here by-and-large want to be left alone and not disturbed. Which is cool - but it's not what a lot of us are looking for.
Fieldafm, yeah, there's stuff to do - but what a lot of us in my age group and of a similar mindset are looking for is a walkable, vibrant urban environment like you'd find in Chicago, or San Francisco, or New York, or Atlanta, or... numerous other places. Jacksonville doesn't have it, hasn't had it for a long time, and doesn't look like it's heading in that direction. So people (like me) looking for a cool place to live move on, and people looking for a cheap, quiet place to live, gravitate towards Jacksonville, and you end up with more of the same.
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
You did. multiple times, and suggested that parking wasnt a concern to any of the corporations, as they were more than glad to pay for parking. You even said this when addeco announced they were leaving downtown for the southside because of the parking.
Not trying to start a fight, just keeping it real.
so show me....if I said it, I'll admit it....of course, maybe it was just a misunderstanding...this medium leaves a lot up for interpretation.
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 01:06:25 PM
They made a choice to live in an urban environment, which turned out to be a poor choice for their personal lives, and instead of taking responsibility on any level whatsoever, they simply expected the rest of the city to change to conform to them and went around for weeks threatening to 'sue the shit out of' anyone who didnt share their entitled view of the universe.
Huntsville lady comes to mind. I have been commenting on Beaches related articles on FTU for a year now and have refrained from mentioning her for fear that my comment could be construed as a personal attack, but I'm done being so nice.
Sandy Golding may be a nice woman, but she moved to Jacksonville Beach with her husband in either the late 90s or early 2000s. Well come 2004 when Devlin and some other investors wanted to transform the Beaches Marina from a mediocre business to a condo/yacht club/marina development, Golding formed Beaches Watch to basically push the effort to stop all new development and impose a height limit.
Now she has done some good, like pushing for a referendum so that restaurants could allow outdoor seating and pets to be brought to outdoor seating (it's a sad situation when the city has to "allow" that in the first place), but she was a relative newcomer to Jax Beach and didn't want to see any change. She is the epitome of the person we’re talking about. Move downtown and try to take downtown away. Move to the Beaches and try to keep it to yourself. Etc.
Her group had somehow come up with the statistic that indicated that in another Floyd, with future highrises traffic would back up for 5.86 miles (ok, that number came out of someone's ass...could be longer but let's not try to pinpoint how long traffic would back up in an evacuation with sketch "research"). Her group's motto is basically "No Miami Beach!!!" Her group, Beaches Watch, basically controls Jax Beach.
It's great when the community gets involved, but I have no sympathy for the Jax Beach community. It's a poor, run-down, uneducated, stoner/surfer/beach bum community that screams when they have to "cross the evil ditch" into civilization (I'm generalizing here and I realize this could be construed as offensive, but it's 99% true). Nobody in that community has ever left Jax Beach! It shows.
Hionedes, Devlin, Las Olas Development, tons of people got dicked over by Beaches Watch and Sandy Golding. Of course the residents thought they were getting dicked over, too, and they had a point, but they claim sustainable, urban, "good" development yet their own policies restrict any and all development.
If there were one bad apple in the world, is it necessary to throw away all the apples and forbid them? All Beaches Watch needed to do was lobby for better development/design regulation. I agree that all of the condos are ugly as sin, and many of the best restaurants were sold off as a result. I agree that the current situation is bad. I'm sad that there isn't one brain in the city who knows how to solve the problem and make everyone in Jax Beach better off. Jax Beach is a microcosm of Jacksonville, unfortunately.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 02:06:34 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
You did. multiple times, and suggested that parking wasnt a concern to any of the corporations, as they were more than glad to pay for parking. You even said this when addeco announced they were leaving downtown for the southside because of the parking.
Not trying to start a fight, just keeping it real.
so show me....if I said it, I'll admit it....of course, maybe it was just a misunderstanding...this medium leaves a lot up for interpretation.
I'd be happy to, if you hadn't deleted at least two of the comments in question as I was in the process of quoting them.
As usual, Tufsu;
(http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pinocchio1.gif)
Well, well, well...
Lo and behold Tufsu, after running to delete your incriminating posts about how downtown's ass-raping parking policies are just awesome and the downtown businesses ought to just suck it up, it turns out that you forgot to delete one before I could quote it;
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 26, 2007, 12:52:50 PM
free parking is not the long-term answer....I can show you many succesful downtowns that have parking meters....the thing to do would be for businesses to provide vouchers for up to 2 hours in a parking garage.....now that idea has been tried elsewhere and it works!
Brilliant post!
Yes, that could happen. Or, back on earth, the businesses could all just leave. Which is what actually happened.
Quote from: simms3 on February 08, 2011, 02:52:38 AM
I'm officially never coming back to NE FL. I can't be around such blatant stupidity.
I don't even drink (well I try not to ;)), but I'm at a loss of words here. This kind of decision making makes me want to just scream.
NE FL basically tells everyone that graduated from a good college and wants to have a productive but fun professional career "STAY AWAY!!!! We only want to attract blue collar families, preferably Baptists since they don't drink and are pure as the wind driven snow, and retirees who forgot to save."
OMG, I will officially not even be able to go to sleep tonight after hearing this. I have doubtfully heard of a sillier shoot yourself in the foot piece of legislation. That whole town is held hostage and run by a bunch of loser beach bum high school dropouts who are "afraid to cross 'the ditch'" and who sit around on the crappy front porches of their crappy beach shacks smoking j's and drinking Buds all day every day (well that and growing out their hair, getting tattoos, riding their Sector 9s, surfing if they can even still get up, and failing to keep up a marriage).
Then we have Hunstville lady who hasn't even been here a decade (just a couple years actually) before she helped ram through the 35 ft. height limit. I think in her own words she did not want future growth taking away "the view." Then we have all the residents who continuously complain about drunken parties and crime in the area when it's their own kids and they themselves most likely have 20 bongs lying around their crappy house.
It's just too frustrating to even pay attention to NE FL anymore. I try to remain so hopeful, boosting my hometown and trying to do what I can from a distance, but it's futile. Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, heck Nashville, Austin, Charlotte, San Diego, etc etc one of you will become my permanent hometown some day and the high COL and traffic will be worth it!! Oh wait, I already live in Midtown Atlanta ha :D
I know quite a few of my high school and college classmates who left for greener pastures. They chose to live in places like San Francisco, Boston, Atlanta, Portland (Oregon), New York, Washington, Philadelphia, San Diego, etc. I wonder if this exodus of younger professionals has an impact on how the rest of us are able to initiate change in North Florida.
As for the Beaches, they seem to be very insular and not very friendly to us 'townies' even before this alcohol sales issue came up. In recent months, there have been articles and opinions in the Beaches Leader newspaper about the influx of urban youth and college students making a mess of Jacksonville Beach with their rowdy behavior. Some of the complaints blamed elements from the 'Northside' (re: blacks and African-Americans) in a not-so-subtle way. I remember when 'cruising' 1st Street was what had the Beach natives up in arms. I presume that the Beach folks will not be happy until they have their little paradise all themselves...
^^mmhmm, Like I said, Jax Beach is a town populated by high school dropouts, pot smokers, surfers, skateboarders, literal bums, burnouts, basically people who would be the dregs of any other society. There are some nice elements populated by transplants and 2nd home owners, but they are viewed by the Jax Beach populace as 'townies trying to take over the "nice" lifestyle they had going there. LoL it's almost comical if it weren't so sad.
I just wish all the Jax Beach people would move further down the coast to Cocoa or further up to some remote beach in GA. One lady in Jax Beach screws the place up just like one little old lady in Mayport screws that place up, and in the process both ladies and their followers screw up the progress of 1.3 million people.
Quote from: Jaxson on February 08, 2011, 07:33:54 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 08, 2011, 02:52:38 AM
I'm officially never coming back to NE FL. I can't be around such blatant stupidity.
I don't even drink (well I try not to ;)), but I'm at a loss of words here. This kind of decision making makes me want to just scream.
NE FL basically tells everyone that graduated from a good college and wants to have a productive but fun professional career "STAY AWAY!!!! We only want to attract blue collar families, preferably Baptists since they don't drink and are pure as the wind driven snow, and retirees who forgot to save."
OMG, I will officially not even be able to go to sleep tonight after hearing this. I have doubtfully heard of a sillier shoot yourself in the foot piece of legislation. That whole town is held hostage and run by a bunch of loser beach bum high school dropouts who are "afraid to cross 'the ditch'" and who sit around on the crappy front porches of their crappy beach shacks smoking j's and drinking Buds all day every day (well that and growing out their hair, getting tattoos, riding their Sector 9s, surfing if they can even still get up, and failing to keep up a marriage).
Then we have Hunstville lady who hasn't even been here a decade (just a couple years actually) before she helped ram through the 35 ft. height limit. I think in her own words she did not want future growth taking away "the view." Then we have all the residents who continuously complain about drunken parties and crime in the area when it's their own kids and they themselves most likely have 20 bongs lying around their crappy house.
It's just too frustrating to even pay attention to NE FL anymore. I try to remain so hopeful, boosting my hometown and trying to do what I can from a distance, but it's futile. Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, heck Nashville, Austin, Charlotte, San Diego, etc etc one of you will become my permanent hometown some day and the high COL and traffic will be worth it!! Oh wait, I already live in Midtown Atlanta ha :D
I know quite a few of my high school and college classmates who left for greener pastures. They chose to live in places like San Francisco, Boston, Atlanta, Portland (Oregon), New York, Washington, Philadelphia, San Diego, etc. I wonder if this exodus of younger professionals has an impact on how the rest of us are able to initiate change in North Florida.
Its because this entire town only wants to cater to old people with kids, Christians, or Joe Sixpack who works a regular 9-5. Oh, and everyone who loves their cars & loves their big honking house out in the suburbs & mows their lawns every Saturday like good little homeowners. Basically, Hank & Peggy Hill.
These little stupid restrictions, lack of vision, suburban sprawl/lack of core development infill & such only reinforce that.
P.S. My wife & I have a kid, but we're also in our early 30s, so are probably considered your typical "young professionals" who've been around the block a time or two, so we've got some perspective. Jax doesn't seem like it wants people like us here. So I think we're gonna listen & move on.
Lol, you have no idea how many times on a weekly basis I wind up comparing Jacksonville to Arlen Texas.
This is not just about the beaches..what do you call Red Light cameras and $158 dollar tickets split between some outside company that proposed this Money making scheme to the chosen few.
I have now brought up MAFIA comparisons for the third time now.
In the old days we called "Fines" and "Fees" EXTORTION. Only you don't have a thug...only a City or State LAW that you have to follow or go to jail ..or simply MOVE. (you can't just shoot them any more)
We as Residents are being taken off the streets with fines and tickets.
JEA is running roughshod on most of our bills (Except for those few A##holes who continually say their bills for their 2 story houses are only $90 dollars a month even in summer.)..(Hmm who at JEA do you have as a family member?)
In the past month I have talked to 3 Ex Navy men that are DISGUSTED with what is going on and call this type of behavior "Mean Spirited"
They agree that the current Illuminati are driving out us Old disgusted residents for some new Blood to suck.(are they really in my age group of 40 somethings?..the ones that can't control their 3-12 year olds?)
No offense, but many of my fellow residents keep their heads in the sand and don't watch news or find out about ANY Jax news shy of a murder because their life completely revolves around thier child and the private bubble that they built up.
HEY! Wake up! your child is going to be living in the community that you chose not to get involved in because you were to busy........ Think about it.
.
The other thing that disgusts me is I have to say these things online...because "I'm Negative and bum people out with my perception with what is going on around me"
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 04:52:10 PM
I'd be happy to, if you hadn't deleted at least two of the comments in question as I was in the process of quoting them.
As usual, Tufsu;
(http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pinocchio1.gif)
glad you used the Pinocchio reference...because I am not one who deletes my posts from 2 years ago...in fact, I rarely bother to go back and search the old archives....
even more incriminating is the fact that I was away from a computer from 4pm until 9:30pm tonight....and was attending a reception from 5:30 to 7:30 (which was attended by the Jax. Beach Planning Director btw)....so perhaps that makes you the one stretching the truth?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 06:44:51 PM
Well, well, well...
Lo and behold Tufsu, after running to delete your incriminating posts about how downtown's ass-raping parking policies are just awesome and the downtown businesses ought to just suck it up, it turns out that you forgot to delete one before I could quote it;
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 26, 2007, 12:52:50 PM
free parking is not the long-term answer....I can show you many succesful downtowns that have parking meters....the thing to do would be for businesses to provide vouchers for up to 2 hours in a parking garage.....now that idea has been tried elsewhere and it works!
Brilliant post!
Yes, that could happen. Or, back on earth, the businesses could all just leave. Which is what actually happened.
please help me understand how this can be interpreted as me saying that businesses don't care about the cost of parking and are fine paying for it.
The way I see it, you have two choices in life... sit around and bitch, or do something about it. I'm about as sarcastic as they come, but I'm not a complainer.
QuoteHEY! Wake up! your child is going to be living in the community that you chose not to get involved in because you were to busy........ Think about it.
I 100% agree with this statement.
Instead of stewing in your own disgust, go out and make it happen.
QuoteBut the fact is that people here by-and-large want to be left alone and not disturbed. Which is cool - but it's not what a lot of us are looking for.
Hate to tell you, but there are very few places in this country that have a high concentration of an activist community. About 95% of the places in the ol US of A, you're going to find that the majority of a community's citizens are going to be just as indifferent.
QuoteFieldafm, yeah, there's stuff to do - but what a lot of us in my age group and of a similar mindset are looking for is a walkable, vibrant urban environment like you'd find in Chicago, or San Francisco, or New York, or Atlanta, or... numerous other places. Jacksonville doesn't have it, hasn't had it for a long time, and doesn't look like it's heading in that direction. So people (like me) looking for a cool place to live move on, and people looking for a cheap, quiet place to live, gravitate towards Jacksonville, and you end up with more of the same.
I'm in your age group as well so I understand where you are coming from. I could see myself living in about 5 other places than Jax. I actually lived in one of those places at one time. But I very much believe in the greatness of Jacksonville. I fell in love with this city and have a very profound sense of belonging while sitting under an oak tree along the banks of the St Johns River. The sun kisses my skin in the morning, and I know I have made the right choice to stay here and try to make this city realize its potential. I'm very bullish on Jacksonville's future. I gotta tell you, a lot of smart people I have known throughout life felt the same way you do and left for greener pastures, only to conclude that they didn't realize how good they had it here. A lot of people left and never looked back, truth be told... but I challenge you to stay. There is nothing more fulfilling than working for a greater cause and the sense of fulfillment when your actions directly lead to a positive impact in your community. In Jacksonville, you have a unique opportunity to experience that in a way you could not in other metropolitan areas. You simply could not effect real change in a place like San Francisco. Here you can.
QuoteI'm officially never coming back to NE FL. I can't be around such blatant stupidity.
Simms buddy, I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning... but sit down and take a deep breath, lol.
I think you're spot on about your height restriction rants, however. I was a beaches resident at the time of this ordinance and was vehemently opposed to the matter. Now, 5 years later public officials are on record as saying that they did not realize that the dense development projects they so wanted would be negatively effected by said height restriction measures. The same thing is going to happen with this alcohol restriction. Jax Beach was an absolute shithole for most of my life. It's now a growing community b/c of the bars and restaurants and the resulting commerce, but trying to legislate your way into being Fort Walton Beach is going to bite you in the end.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 09:45:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 04:52:10 PM
I'd be happy to, if you hadn't deleted at least two of the comments in question as I was in the process of quoting them.
As usual, Tufsu;
(http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pinocchio1.gif)
glad you used the Pinocchio reference...because I am not one who deletes my posts from 2 years ago...in fact, I rarely bother to go back and search the old archives....
even more incriminating is the fact that I was away from a computer from 4pm until 9:30pm tonight....and was attending a reception from 5:30 to 7:30 (which was attended by the Jax. Beach Planning Director btw)....so perhaps that makes you the one stretching the truth?
Hey, you asked me to find where you said that, so I searched. Now you blame me for searching?
And you deleted the posts around 2-something, I just didn't get around to replying in the thread until 4.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2011, 09:46:43 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 06:44:51 PM
Well, well, well...
Lo and behold Tufsu, after running to delete your incriminating posts about how downtown's ass-raping parking policies are just awesome and the downtown businesses ought to just suck it up, it turns out that you forgot to delete one before I could quote it;
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 26, 2007, 12:52:50 PM
free parking is not the long-term answer....I can show you many succesful downtowns that have parking meters....the thing to do would be for businesses to provide vouchers for up to 2 hours in a parking garage.....now that idea has been tried elsewhere and it works!
Brilliant post!
Yes, that could happen. Or, back on earth, the businesses could all just leave. Which is what actually happened.
please help me understand how this can be interpreted as me saying that businesses don't care about the cost of parking and are fine paying for it.
So you didn't say that there should be no free parking, and that businesses should simply subsidize garage passes for the customers to make up for it? Is that not what you said? Lol...
You know this kind of silly denial of reality despite being confronted with the facts, you're starting to remind me of Baghdad Bob. Not that this tactic worked out any better for him than it is for you.
Here's a pic of Tufsu at his night job;
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yEo2CYoHMmA/RlX_Dz0k-PI/AAAAAAAAAgI/_PWotIO2L98/s400/BagBob-749336.JPG)
wow Chris...so mature!
Why not Jaxson?
We successfully destroyed what would-have-been "HOLLYWOOD JACKSONVILLE..." because the film crews were rowdy and didn't always tell the city they were filming. In a procedure obsessed "Duke's of Hazard," culture allowing aliens on the beach might be too much to ask.
We've also happily surrendered our financial capital of Florida status to every small town and flashing light in the highway to our south.
We allowed the Tenneco and Westinghouse, to leave town after they had invested millions in an aborted Nuke Industry project. Meanwhile Westinghouse has gone on to build a new plant in Austin, Texas, and as far away as China. Meanwhile Tenneco with 80 manufacturing plants around the globe announced the opening of a new manufacturing plant in India, and has expanded the Hartwell, Georgia plant by 200 jobs.
We drove the retail business out of downtown with punitive inventory taxes, and ridiculous parking fees and fines.
We let Amtrak close all of it's downtown operations in 1974, then watched as they closed their most productive reservations center.
...And then there was Sealand, Fruehauf, Jacksonville Shipyards, and a couple of paper mills.
So yeah Jaxson, WHY NOT?
When Jacksonville and it's beaches have driven the last business, and the last person to Orlando, maybe Florida could declare Duval a STATE HISTORIC PARK... On the other hand, forget I said that, the new governor would veto it.
OCKLAWAHA
To the point that people my age get frustrated and leave the city. I truly think a new brand of leaders recognize this point. That is why it is so critical that the involvement of my generation comes to the forefront in this city.
Heck we had a mayoral candidate that ran b/c he was inspired to stop the 'brain drain' in his own family as he was tired of his daughters leaving for greener pastures.
Even in the newest Civic Council white paper you see this exerpt:
QuoteDowntown is essential to the attraction of many young people, who are actively seekingto live in dense, mixed-use communities which don’t require cars, and shops,residences, parks and businesses exist close together. These are mostly well educatedand professional, a growing set of workers upon which competitive cities rely andflourish. Making downtown attractive to this important demographic segment is critical tothe economic and intellectual growth of our city.7
The time is now, the choice is yours. I urge you to become part of the solution.
I have noticed Jacksonville Beach is VERY resistant to change. I remember one time where the residents said, " We dont want it to turn into Miami Beach." WHY NOT??!?? Atleast the city of Jacksonville itself is making SOME strides and that we realize we have to change and we need catalyst for change (Audrey Moran for Mayor! 8) )
Quote from: duvaldude08 on February 09, 2011, 12:04:21 PM
I have noticed Jacksonville Beach is VERY resistant to change. I remember one time where the residents said, " We dont want it to turn into Miami Beach." WHY NOT??!?? Atleast the city of Jacksonville itself is making SOME strides and that we realize we have to change and we need catalyst for change (Audrey Moran for Mayor! 8) )
+1000
To quote: "I think you're spot on about your height restriction rants, however. I was a beaches resident at the time of this ordinance and was vehemently opposed to the matter. Now, 5 years later public officials are on record as saying that they did not realize that the dense development projects they so wanted would be negatively effected by said height restriction measures."
My question: Have they been repealed? Has anyone said, "Wow, that was a mistake. We better change it." Has anyone done anything with this new found enlightenment? If not, I would question whether anyone has really learned anything, or whether anything has really, substantively changed.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 08, 2011, 10:41:11 PMQuoteFieldafm, yeah, there's stuff to do - but what a lot of us in my age group and of a similar mindset are looking for is a walkable, vibrant urban environment like you'd find in Chicago, or San Francisco, or New York, or Atlanta, or... numerous other places. Jacksonville doesn't have it, hasn't had it for a long time, and doesn't look like it's heading in that direction. So people (like me) looking for a cool place to live move on, and people looking for a cheap, quiet place to live, gravitate towards Jacksonville, and you end up with more of the same.
I'm in your age group as well so I understand where you are coming from. I could see myself living in about 5 other places than Jax. I actually lived in one of those places at one time. But I very much believe in the greatness of Jacksonville. I fell in love with this city and have a very profound sense of belonging while sitting under an oak tree along the banks of the St Johns River. The sun kisses my skin in the morning, and I know I have made the right choice to stay here and try to make this city realize its potential. I'm very bullish on Jacksonville's future. I gotta tell you, a lot of smart people I have known throughout life felt the same way you do and left for greener pastures, only to conclude that they didn't realize how good they had it here. A lot of people left and never looked back, truth be told... but I challenge you to stay. There is nothing more fulfilling than working for a greater cause and the sense of fulfillment when your actions directly lead to a positive impact in your community. In Jacksonville, you have a unique opportunity to experience that in a way you could not in other metropolitan areas. You simply could not effect real change in a place like San Francisco. Here you can.
Field, I see what you're saying. But I'm looking at this city from the perspective of someone whose grandparents were either born and raised here or who came here very young. My parents were born and raised here. I was born and raised here. So there are generations of "Jacksonville blood" in my veins. My family has always been active locally, either in politics or running their own businesses here in town. We've always supported the city. But nothing has improved, in the long run, as far as the development of a vibrant urban area. At some point, you (or me, anyway) get tired of working for a greater cause - I want to succeed at things in life and meet personal goals that don't involve trying to change some councilman's mind about a street running past a courthouse, or arguing with residents of downtown buildings built next to nightclubs.
Not to mention, my wife is not from here and has zero attachment to this place. She's from Italy and has lived all over the US. She's ready to go at the drop of a hat.
To counter your point about people you've known who left for greener pastures and didn't realize what they had... I know a number of people who got out, never looked back, and have had successful and enriching lives.
It's not that I hate Jacksonville. It's that Jacksonville is like an alcoholic uncle or drug addicted brother (I've had both) - it doesn't seem to want to help itself. And if that's the case, there's nothing you can do for it.
QuoteI received an email from someone yesterday and I replied that I couldn't do something at the time because I received 3-4 hours of sleep a night and that my life was in warp speed and in no indication of slowing down anytime soon. Well this is typical for people in most places, but in Jax it's like people sleep 20 hours a day and go to First Baptist the other 4 hours of the day (oh and they fit in some fried food in there too). At the beaches I guess they sleep 20 hours, wake and bake, surf for a couple hours, put down some brewskis (while it's light out?), and go back to sleep.
Whoaaa dude. Relax. I know you're some hot shot Johnny up in ATL, but you do realize the rest of us live in Jax?? Try not to collectively shoot down the entire city that helped you become who you are. I know most of us are do nothing, lazy, failures, but please respect those that aren't.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 09, 2011, 05:49:38 PM
QuoteI received an email from someone yesterday and I replied that I couldn't do something at the time because I received 3-4 hours of sleep a night and that my life was in warp speed and in no indication of slowing down anytime soon. Well this is typical for people in most places, but in Jax it's like people sleep 20 hours a day and go to First Baptist the other 4 hours of the day (oh and they fit in some fried food in there too). At the beaches I guess they sleep 20 hours, wake and bake, surf for a couple hours, put down some brewskis (while it's light out?), and go back to sleep.
Whoaaa dude. Relax. I know you're some hot shot Johnny up in ATL, but you do realize the rest of us live in Jax?? Try not to collectively shoot down the entire city that helped you become who you are. I know most of us are do nothing, lazy, failures, but please respect those that aren't.
Oh, he lives in Atlanta?? I don't think he's ever mentioned that. Nope. ;D
Whoaaa nelly, try not to take it so personally :)
Matt, I believe you are my new best friend...
After attending the grand opening of Bold City Grill last night... I'm in a Bold City kinda mood. Come out to Three Layers next Tuesday, you buy me a 1901 and I'll buy you a latte(or whatever it is you coffee people drink, I substitute Diet Mt Dew for coffee). I have a few things I want to discuss with any MJ followers that want to listen anyway.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on February 10, 2011, 09:22:59 AM
Funny how people have different perspectives. When I think of having a life on "warp speed", I don't see it as having the time to make self absorbed rants on message boards....but that's just me.
I happen to love Jacksonville. However, I have a biased opinion as we chose to move here(after several visits to our "contenders") after deciding we wanted to leave the Northeast. I will definitely say that Boston is far away my favorite city.....to visit. Definitely not to live(weather and COL the reasons). There are definitely many things I would change about Jacksonville (with downtown improvements number 1)but that doesn't change the fact that I love living here. For those that do not, I would offer the following suggestions:
1. Identify why you really do not like living here ( perhaps it is your own situation and not Jacksonville itself)
2. Work toward improving things that you do not like about Jacksonville or your situation.
3. Or MOVE to another city
Yes, easier said than done. Warning: Effort, compromise, and sacrifice may actually be involved.
That, sanmarcomatt, is where the frustration begins. There are many idealists, including me, with hopes for a better city. We understand that effort, compromise and sacrifice are important. Even with pragmatism and patience, I find that many obstacles are just impossible to move. For example, moving Amtrak back downtown. You are right - easier said than done.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on February 10, 2011, 09:22:59 AM
Funny how people have different perspectives. When I think of having a life on "warp speed", I don't see it as having the time to make self absorbed rants on message boards....but that's just me.
I happen to love Jacksonville. However, I have a biased opinion as we chose to move here(after several visits to our "contenders") after deciding we wanted to leave the Northeast. I will definitely say that Boston is far away my favorite city.....to visit. Definitely not to live(weather and COL the reasons). There are definitely many things I would change about Jacksonville (with downtown improvements number 1)but that doesn't change the fact that I love living here. For those that do not, I would offer the following suggestions:
1. Identify why you really do not like living here ( perhaps it is your own situation and not Jacksonville itself)
2. Work toward improving things that you do not like about Jacksonville or your situation.
3. Or MOVE to another city
Yes, easier said than done. Warning: Effort, compromise, and sacrifice may actually be involved.
There are some things in this city that cannot be changed, regardless of actions on the part of a concerned and frustrated individual. When my wife and I bought our home a year and a half ago, we did it out of an attachment to Jacksonville, due to its natural beauty and the proximity to family (all of my family lives here). I've lived here almost my whole life.
But over the past two years of trying to work with the urban community doing book readings and workshops, and attending and participating in various downtown-oriented events (Art Walk and the Holiday Displays are the first that spring to mind), it's become clear that the problems with this city run deeper than shortsighted leadership. The residents themselves are part of the problem. There is a resistance to forward-thinking ideas here. As a kid I didn't realize this - after all, when I was growing up, the Landing and the Riverwalk were built. MOSH was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And Friendship Fountain!
I got older and travelled more and realized, wow, Jacksonville has a ways to go. But by and large, people complain if tax dollars are spent on anything. And I mean anything. Which I can understand, but it keeps certain improvements from happening. Couple that with the pervasive opinion that if something is old, it needs to be torn down. Spend no money fixing it up. Tear it down. (Sometimes stated more enthusiastically i.e. "Tear it down, baby!")
So for a couple years, my business partner and I made a go of it. Meanwhile we travelled. We have encountered more open minds and had greater success outside of Jacksonville than we ever had in town. I mean - our own schoolboard was uninterested in having a local published writer and illustrator visit schools FOR FREE to speak about community and talk about writing and art. Why then have other cities in other states welcomed us? Even PAID for the privilege? Yeah, maybe we're doing something wrong - but look around you. There are almost no historic buildings left. Downtown is a ghost town. Strip malls are built and left to fall apart while new strip malls are built, further out. Families look to live in St Johns County because of the Jacksonville school system, and it has been that way as long as I can remember.
So in my case, I've cycled thru the first two of your options and am looking at number 3.
Sorry for the long winded reply. Rant over.
Well said. More to our problems than meets the eye.
I agree that the problems of our city pervade all layers of our society. From the townspeople to the top, people want their lives to remain unchanged, but at the same time have no tolerance for the old and historic. My contention is, who cares? We don't necessarily have to change the whole city to create the life we want to live here. Even among the 'young professionals' in Jax, most of them are blissfully ignorant about many current issues.
My goal is to carve within our city a life that I can enjoy. Mark, Jason Albertelli, Scott McAllister, and others haven't necessarily catered to the current market with their venues, but created the kinds of places that they would enjoy. It turns out, the market has been very receptive to what they have done and it has actually changed the preferences of the city. You can do this with more than just bars. Stephen Dare has done this in just about every aspect of his life. There was a need for metrojax, but there wasn't necessarily a demand for it initially, but the market has responded and now changed to the point that many of us would die (not literally) without it.
This is what more people need to do, and I believe this is what Field and San Marco Matt are saying. These are also the kind of people that the city needs to be more accommodating and helpful to. We need more pioneers in this town.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:19:23 PM
We need more pioneers in this town.
I agree 100%. But a lot of the would-be pioneers end up leaving!
Quote from: Bativac on February 10, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:19:23 PM
We need more pioneers in this town.
I agree 100%. But a lot of the would-be pioneers end up leaving!
Because the city gov'ment runs them out of town. If it was easier to do business and make a buck, more would stay.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Bativac on February 10, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:19:23 PM
We need more pioneers in this town.
I agree 100%. But a lot of the would-be pioneers end up leaving!
Because the city gov'ment runs them out of town. If it was easier to do business and make a buck, more would stay.
No kidding. It's very frustrating. I shouldn't have to include "Jacksonville exit strategy" as part of my business plan. Friends shouldn't have to leave town to start fashion labels or production companies.
Quote from: stephendare on February 10, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
we do need a lot more pioneers, and a lot more support for their outlandish ideas!
Couldnt agree more.
In strict honesty however, I am only one of a group of 5 people who created metrojacksonville.com. ;)
The God Bless Stephen, Steve, Ennis, Dan, and of course Bob 'The Man" Mann.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Bativac on February 10, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:19:23 PM
We need more pioneers in this town.
I agree 100%. But a lot of the would-be pioneers end up leaving!
Because the city gov'ment runs them out of town. If it was easier to do business and make a buck, more would stay.
The residents are just as responsible for running people off. People expect resistance from those who they're telling are doing a bad job, that's a natural expectation. But when you start getting B.S. like that from these "Well son, if you don't like it then MOVE" assholes, like what has been displayed even in this very thread, then it really sucks the wind out of you and makes you question why you care. If it was just about "me first" then this subset of people (including me) who care about what's wrong and want to see things change would already be out of here and living in Boston.
The reality is a big chunk of the population in JAX is travel-illiterate and haven't seen enough functional examples of what is failing here to recognize the problems, and from that ignorance they conclude that everyone who points out we should be doing something different is a whiny crybaby and then cue the "Delta's ready when you are" crap. Another large chunk of the population are truly indifferent and just don't care. The third chunk, the ones who are traveled and recognize the problems, tend to be part of the same system that caused the problems (huge construction, real estate, finance, etc., presences here) and these people have a ve$ted intere$t in the status quo.
The people who care, recognize the problems, and arent't part of the problem, get fed up with the "If you don't like it, then you can LEAVE!" bullshit and they do leave. Despite having several well-regarded prep schools, a law school, two state universities, and a large private university here, a full 78% of Duval County residents have no college education. So I guess this "Delta's ready when you are" attitude that comes up every time someone suggests changing anything has just worked out awesome, hasn't it? Most of them do leave.
And the way this city treats its artists and creative types is even more abhorrent. Look at the B.S. Stephen Dare went through with his dinner theatre and SPAR. Look at how our pathetic local 'establishment' has co-opted the arts and entertainment scene, woth Allegretti stealing credit for Art Walk and RAM, and Florida Theatre management stealing credit and trying to steal the whole idea for the Florida theatre conservatory, and on and on. This city's idea of supporting its artists was holding a "Starving Artists" sale where the artists had to show up and pin to the wall the actual bill they were late on, for the public to view, in order to be allowed to sell at the show. How humiliating.
The attitudes around here are just obnoxious, truly. Some of it can be seen in this very thread. People need to wake up, if they want much of anything to change. Starting with dropping the hostility and having open minds to the possibility for change.
I get the "if you don't like, then leave!" snub all the time. I even heard it from a cop when I complained about a truck straddles completely across the sidewalk. This was downtown too! I told him that where I come from, motorists have rules to follow and they can't park anywhere they wish. I also went on to say that people in wheelchairs, baby strollers, and old people with their walkers have no way to get around the truck without going into the road. And the cop told me that if I wasn't happy here, to go back where I came from! So, even the cops don't care about the plight of those who are competent and care about JAX.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 10, 2011, 05:58:30 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Bativac on February 10, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 10, 2011, 04:19:23 PM
We need more pioneers in this town.
I agree 100%. But a lot of the would-be pioneers end up leaving!
Because the city gov'ment runs them out of town. If it was easier to do business and make a buck, more would stay.
The residents are just as responsible for running people off. People expect resistance from those who they're telling are doing a bad job, that's a natural expectation. But when you start getting B.S. like that from these "Well son, if you don't like it then MOVE" assholes, like what has been displayed even in this very thread, then it really sucks the wind out of you and makes you question why you care. If it was just about "me first" then this subset of people (including me) who care about what's wrong and want to see things change would already be out of here and living in Boston.
The reality is a big chunk of the population in JAX is travel-illiterate and haven't seen enough functional examples of what is failing here to recognize the problems, and from that ignorance they conclude that everyone who points out we should be doing something different is a whiny crybaby and then cue the "Delta's ready when you are" crap. Another large chunk of the population are truly indifferent and just don't care. The third chunk, the ones who are traveled and recognize the problems, tend to be part of the same system that caused the problems (huge construction, real estate, finance, etc., presences here) and these people have a ve$ted intere$t in the status quo.
The people who care, recognize the problems, and arent't part of the problem, get fed up with the "If you don't like it, then you can LEAVE!" bullshit and they do leave. Despite having several well-regarded prep schools, a law school, two state universities, and a large private university here, a full 78% of Duval County residents have no college education. So I guess this "Delta's ready when you are" attitude that comes up every time someone suggests changing anything has just worked out awesome, hasn't it? Most of them do leave.
And the way this city treats its artists and creative types is even more abhorrent. Look at the B.S. Stephen Dare went through with his dinner theatre and SPAR. Look at how our pathetic local 'establishment' has co-opted the arts and entertainment scene, woth Allegretti stealing credit for Art Walk and RAM, and Florida Theatre management stealing credit and trying to steal the whole idea for the Florida theatre conservatory, and on and on. This city's idea of supporting its artists was holding a "Starving Artists" sale where the artists had to show up and pin to the wall the actual bill they were late on, for the public to view, in order to be allowed to sell at the show. How humiliating.
The attitudes around here are just obnoxious, truly. Some of it can be seen in this very thread. People need to wake up, if they want much of anything to change. Starting with dropping the hostility and having open minds to the possibility for change.
You are dead on. Especially the part about artists. And the part about people getting fed up with the "if you don't like it then leave" attitude.
I hate to come off like I hate Jacksonville, because I don't. The city has beautiful natural features and a rich history. But it's just so damn frustrating.
Another comment - I have never walked, bicycled or jogged anyplace else in this country (or out of it) where people deliberately throw trash at you as they speed past you. What the hell is that?
This city truly does hate pedestrians! I found out that if you're on a bicycle, you're considered a pedestrian as well. Why do people have a problem with those who get around without any mechanical help?
^^^That's weird. Up here a bicycle is considered a vehicle (which poses its own problems).
Wait, can't you get a DUI on a bike? And on a skateboard? On a riding lawn mower? Basically anything with wheels? Are you sure that bicyclists are considered pedestrians?
Simms, bicycles are considered vehicles when the police want to ticket bike riders, and pedestrians when the police want to ticket car drivers, lol. $tarting to get the idea?
(http://guestcommentaryjdpkillercase.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/corrupt-cop.jpg?w=246&h=300)
Quote from: urbaknight on February 11, 2011, 02:05:58 PM
This city truly does hate pedestrians! I found out that if you're on a bicycle, you're considered a pedestrian as well. Why do people have a problem with those who get around without any mechanical help?
This is true - when a cyclist or pedestrian is injured or killed, the response is almost invariably "serves 'em right, they shoulda' been more careful!"
But, I mean, if I'm walking on a sidewalk, I shouldn't have to dodge a half-full McDonald's cup or still-lit cigarette butts just because some jackass thinks it's funny to "throw stuff at that guy runnin' down the sidewalk."
To bring this thread back, my wife and some friends will be going out this weekend for her birthday. They plan on going to the beach and having a few drinks. Maybe even after midnight!! The very idea!!
better bring your own stocked cooler, but make sure it doesn't have wheels - that vehicle could get you in trouble with the law.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on February 11, 2011, 05:09:19 PM
better bring your own stocked cooler, but make sure it doesn't have wheels - that vehicle could get you in trouble with the law.
No it can't, if you have a vehicle, you're immuned to the law.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on February 11, 2011, 05:09:19 PM
better bring your own stocked cooler, but make sure it doesn't have wheels - that vehicle could get you in trouble with the law.
That's Funny!
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/11/night-life-clusters/67173/# (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/11/night-life-clusters/67173/#)
QuoteNight Life Clusters
I've always been fascinated by the way businesses cluster, even retail stores. You tend to get multiple clothing shops, home improvement stores, and so forth in a relatively small area, especially when there's high population density--New York City has an entire area that's just chock full of lamp shops.
If you just did a quick intuitive gut check, you would not necessarily assume this would be the case. Why would a lamp shop want to be located next to a whole lot of competition? Wouldn't it be better to be the only lamp shop in the area?
No, because clustering allows them to specialize. Sure, you'll lose some customers because they can just go next door when you don't have a lamp they want. But you'll also gain customers from other stores. Having a big cluster means that when folks in the know want a lamp, they'll head to your district; with such high traffic, the spillover effects more than make up for the disadvantages of not having a captive audience.
As with lamps, so with bars. Unfortunately, as Matt Yglesias notes, this tends to upset the neighbors:
Street noise is a very real issue in large swathes of Manhattan and I think it's perfectly understandable that people prefer not to have lively nightlife scenes located directly outside their windows. So when I read Sarah Laskow's long and excellent account of liquor license battles in the East Village, I'm not-unsympathetic to the incumbent residents' concerns. But as she observes at the end, there's a real cost to this attitude:
At the meeting with Kao, the locals gave him the same reason for opposing him that they had given Warren, when he wanted to open a burger bar in the space: according to the current license, the only type of business that should be selling liquor at 200 Ave. A is a bookshop. With rent set at $10,000 in the East Village Party District, that's as unlikely as it sounds.
The broader issue, as she explains, is that cities are driven by agglomeration:
Academics have a word for what the neighborhood has become: a nightscape. Bars and restaurants were once peripheral to the main drag's primary economic drivers: supermarkets, coffeehouses, boutique shops, record stores. But in post-industrial cities, nightlife has grown into an industry in its own right. As in any industry, shop owners tend to cluster. A century ago, that meant the creation of a Garment District. Now it means the creation of a Party District.
Basically the East Village really "wants" to be full of nightlife establishments just like Qiaotou, China wants button factories. Restricting the creation of new button factories in Qiatou will help incumbent button makers (and alleviate neighborhood concerns about factory smoot) but it's hard to call a bar scene into existence that way. Similarly, making it hard to open a new bar in the East Village isn't going to create a button factory. It's going to create an underutilized space. That means somewhat more unemployment in the city, somewhat less tax revenue in the city, and thus at the margin higher tax rates and fewer social services for everyone.
Ryan Avent adds an important observation: attempting to restrict the crowds at bars may actually increase the noise problem.
London, like cities and towns across the British Isles, is filled with pubs. They vary in type, quality, and clientele. I was very lucky this time around to find a near-perfect gastropub just a five minute walk from my flat. It was quiet and well-maintained with a great menu, and while there were always people there, there was also always a free seat. Kids were welcome during the day, as were dogs. Every time I went I thought to myself how great it would be to have such a place close by back in Washington. And every time I thought that, I immediately reminded myself that such a place, back in Washington, would be perpetually packed and fairly unpleasant. In the Washington area, you can't have a place that's both really good and quiet in a neighborhood-y sort of way.
That's largely because it's very difficult to open new bars. And the result is a pernicious feedback loop. With too few bars around, most good bars are typically crowded. This crowdedness alienates neighbors, and it also has a selecting effect on the types of people who choose to go to bars -- those interested in a loud, rowdy environment, who will often tend to be loud and rowdy. This alienates neighbors even more, leading to tighter restrictions still and exacerbating the problem.
Sadly, this is the kind of dynamic that's very difficult to change. No city council will pass the let-one-thousand-bars-bloom act, and neighbors can legitimately complain of any individual liquor license approval that it may lead to some crowded, noisy nights. It's interesting how often these multiple equilibrium situations turn up in urban economics. In general, they seem to cry out for institutional innovation. It's a little surprising, for instance, that we don't see more "private club" type bars, that restrict entry by price or membership, in order to preserve the quiet along with the quality. Or maybe we do, and I've just not been invited to join them.
I don't want to push this argument too far--London has a sizeable population of obnoxious drunks, many of whom decide to get into fistfights outside their local pub. (An editor at the Economist who had recently moved to the United States was asked how he had enjoyed his first New Year's in New York. "It made me quite homesick," he replied. "All those drunks throwing up in the subway were like a breath of London.")
But it is true that London also has more quiet pubs New York--and New York, in turn, has more of them (outside of the East Village) than DC does. And this does make bars and cafes noticeably more unpleasant for the neighbors, as well as the customers. Which in turn causes residents to fight like hell to keep out any business that might attract a late-night crowd.
One possible solution is upzoning--neighborhood bars aren't so obnoxious when you're ten floors above them. But of course, the local residents tend to fight that as well.
So the bill passed.
I can't help but think that they aren't considering the potential unintended consequences of this. If the bars decide not to get the so-called "license", this will undoubtedly lead to more drunken driving as the party goers stream from the beach to places on the other side of the intracoastal.
On the upside, DUI arrests and tickets on the associated bridges could very well solve all of Jacksonville's budget woes!
Sincerely,
Someone who hasn't gone over the intracoastal to have so much as a dose of cough syrup since I lived there 8 years ago.