Metro Jacksonville

Mike Hogan finally attended a mayoral debate and mentioned something about what he wants for downtown.

QuoteThe mayoral debate at the Southside Business Men's Club meeting Wednesday didn't have much new discussion, but did feature a popular unscientific novelty that always gets people talking. A straw poll.  The three Republicans who attended the debate finished in the top three among the 74 votes.  Audrey Moran, president of the Sulzabacher Center for the homeless, won with 35 votes. Former General Counsel Rick Mullaney had 23 and Duval County Tax Collector Mike Hogan had 15, according to Supervisor of Elections Jerry Holland.

QuoteOne new kernel of potential policy came from Hogan, who did not attend a downtown-centric forum last week at the Modis Building. While stressing taxpayers have paid enough into downtown, he broadly outlined a vision for a "Miracle Mile" that would start at The Jacksonville Landing and run to a potential cruise terminal at the old Ford assembly plant in Talleyrand. Hogan wants to build a convention center after the Duval County Courthouse and Courthouse Annex close in the next few years. He says the hotels that would be sprouting up could pay for the center.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-galnor/2011-02-02/top-three-gop-candidates-debate-business-club-moran-wins

Quoteoutlined a vision for a "Miracle Mile" that would start at The Jacksonville Landing and run to a potential cruise terminal at the old Ford assembly plant in Talleyrand. Hogan wants to build a convention center after the Duval County Courthouse and Courthouse Annex close in the next few years.

Mike really needs to credit this site... :)

More ideas, more "vision" once again. We have enough of that.

Jacksonville needs execution.

My loose personal straw poll shows that typical people on the street don't know or aren't sure.

Business people I talk to say Moran has the grassroots, Mullaney has some business leaders, Hogan is losing ground fast. If Hogan is serious, he needs to stop canceling appearances. He has the highest name recognition of any candidate, but fails to show and people are starting to notice.

I was at the forum at south side busineesmens club today. This is the oldest and strongest business club in north florida. Very interesting because mike hogan actully shoes up. He talked more about his experience with southern bell where he used to work many many years ago than his last 20 years as an elected councilman, member of the house of representatives and as elected tax collector. I commend him for finally discussing downtown. He wants to build a convention center by using the bed tax. The only problem is the bed tax is all obligated to other capital projects and could not come close for years to building the convention center.  At least he finally showed up. Mullaney spoke and kept referring to his 32? Point plan. He spoke in so many specifics and in so many directions it was complicated and confusing. On the other hand. Moran was very big picture with enough specifics to paint a clear picture of moving the city forward. She has a passion that is contagious. You got the sense she would be the mayor to move our city forward and begin to partner with the business community to create an excellent environment for economic development. Small and large business expansion and job creation. Also, I loved her approach to education. It is well thought out and her desire and fire to lead came through. This is why overwhelmingly she won at the south side busineesmens club. This was a huge boost to her candidacy and a real set back to the others. Good for her!!

I dunno... Everything Hogan says sounds good, but it is nothing we have not been promised before. Moran is my first choice and Mullney is my second. We need alot more than a "miracle mile" to reinvent our downtown. hopefully we hear more from him that will change our minds.

Haven't we heard of this "miracle mile" / "billion dollar mile" thing before?  My concern over that is it ignores the fact that urban vibrancy is developed by pedestrian scale connectivity that's created by locating complementing uses within a compact walkable setting. 

As republicans i will not trust any of these guys' and gal decisions..if they follow the republican way of doing things...i trust them only to take as much as they can and give as many contracts to friends and family...it's the way things have gone in this city and i don't see things changing any time soon...so...for me...it'll be much of the same for these people...

Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2011, 05:52:52 AM
Haven't we heard of this "miracle mile" / "billion dollar mile" thing before?  My concern over that is it ignores the fact that urban vibrancy is developed by pedestrian scale connectivity that's created by locating complementing uses within a compact walkable setting. 

Maybe so, but at least Mike Hogan specifically pointed out we need a convention center, cruise port, etc... Has ANYONE ELSE said that?

OCKLAWAHA

I have to agree with Ock on that one. At least he has said. Still not sure who to vote for. Leaning Moran.

Actually, both Moran and Mullaney have also mentioned the need for a convention center and cruise port.  What was stated isn't anything new.  However, the issue would be the priorities in accomplishing the goal and how those priorities align with the concept of pedestrian scale connectivity (which DT will need for vibrancy).  A million dollar mile is doomed to fail just like the old billion dollar mile concept.  With that in mind, Moran's talking points for DT revitalization and Mullaney's plan of creating an urban medical district are more logical solutions for stimulating long term organic economic growth for the core.

Quote from: Garden guy on February 03, 2011, 08:02:43 AM
As republicans i will not trust any of these guys' and gal decisions..if they follow the republican way of doing things...i trust them only to take as much as they can and give as many contracts to friends and family...it's the way things have gone in this city and i don't see things changing any time soon...so...for me...it'll be much of the same for these people...

We know GG...

Personally I just sick of the pipe dreams. We need someone who is going to follow through with the plans. Once he unveils a cohesive plan in regard to how we are going to develop the "miracle mile.", I am not buying it. There are only two previous mayors that had plans for downtown and followed through with it,  Jack Godbold and John Delaney. Personally, I would rather not be promised things of this nature. Because when it doesnt happen, the citizens of Jacksonville will be let down once again.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
Actually, both Moran and Mullaney have also mentioned the need for a convention center and cruise port.  What was stated isn't anything new.  However, the issue would be the priorities in accomplishing the goal and how those priorities align with the concept of pedestrian scale connectivity (which DT will need for vibrancy).  A million dollar mile is doomed to fail just like the old billion dollar mile concept.  With that in mind, Moran's talking points for DT revitalization and Mullaney's plan of creating an urban medical district are more logical solutions for stimulating long term organic economic growth for the core.

+10

I wouldn't even want Hogan's miracle mile.  If he's talking about our large cruise terminal, it doesn't make sense to put it at the Ford plant.  If we do that, we're just relegating ourselves to being a small time player in the cruise industry.  We need to go east of the Dames Point.  

I was at art walk last night with a few people who were musing about downtown.  It seemed like we reached a stalemate when we all agreed that there is no reason for anyone to come downtown because it's trash and the city won't allow you to be profitable.  Only true urban pioneers and completely altruistic saints would invest in downtown.  No mom and pops, no profit driven businessmen.  

One thing to note.  I parked in the lot just north of the Main Street homeless bathroom (pocket park) and was greeted by an employee who swiftly asked for $5.  I told him I'd park on the street.  He laughed at me and said I'd never find anything.  He said if I really didn't want to pay the money, I could park across the street where they have an 'honor system' and they probably wouldn't check.  I found a street full of spots at Hogan and Ashley.  I parked the exact same distance from Hemming and Moca for free, just because I was willing to look.

Would it make any sense to have two cruise ports? One for smaller Carnival Fascination type ships in the Talleyrand area and one for larger ships out Mayport way?

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2011, 10:44:14 AM
I parked in the lot just north of the Main Street homeless bathroom (pocket park)

Sad but true.

If two cruise ports were designed, why not put the smaller one right in downtown instead of Talleyrand?  Would it be only be done to make up a reason to preserve the Ford plant, despite being in the middle of a disconnected industrial area?

I would imagine the Heart and Matthews Bridges would stop any Cruise terminals from being built toward downtown.

(http://www.fhsla.org/annual-meetings/2005/images/boat-hotelsmall.jpg)

How large was the cruise ship that was next to the Hyatt, during the 2005 Super Bowl?

I guess my concern would be, if we're going to go through the trouble of making two terminals, we might as well put the smaller one in the heart of the core.  I say this because Talleyrand is so disconnected from anything else, that if it's the only viable location for a smaller terminal west of the Dames Point, you might as well build one main complex east of the bridge.

I love the Ford plant, but from a connectivity issue, putting a terminal there is even less sensible than picking the Prime as the convention center site.

I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

Moran and Mullaney have worked in previous administrations - they would be the same ole, same ole. 

I'm leaning heavily for Hogan!

Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2011, 04:09:16 PM
If two cruise ports were designed, why not put the smaller one right in downtown instead of Talleyrand?  Would it be only be done to make up a reason to preserve the Ford plant, despite being in the middle of a disconnected industrial area?

I'm with you on this Lake, but I'd consider the large terminal at the FORD PLANT. Several reasons...

1. Easily connected to the core with FIXED ROUTE transit...ships + streetcars = good.
2. Such an extension would be necessity take the tourist/visitors right past the stadium, Arena, Fairgrounds (at  least for now), Baseball Park, Historic St. Luke's-proposed museum/archives site, Hogan's Creek (which as we proved Saturday is WIDE OPEN to become Jacksonville's BRICKTOWN CANAL-TROLLEY PARK.  
3. Deep Channel right up to the dock, won't need much dredging if any.
4. Classic Neo-Industrial era historic site.
5. Not generally known, the property is a city block wide and runs all the way from TALLEYRAND to the water. IE: All of the ugly in front and immediately surrounding it could be converted into park space and parking.

I dunno the idea has a lot of positives, BUT IT MUST BE CONNECTED.

QuoteJacksonville needs execution.

+1

Give the land of the Old City Hall and the old Courthouse to Hyatt and allow them to create a private convention center. Jax wins with the bedtax and fees associated with the conventions there. The only way to get convention built when you are staring down a 60 million budget hole is with private investment leading the way.

Enough talk already, how about some action. Mullaney really needs 34 points? I am exhausted listening to just 3.

Ock, the main thing I would have against such a plan is the cost and the fact that it spreads out development.  You're easily over $300 million and if you have that much money to spend, I'd make the argument that it would go further in other areas of the urban core where people actually live.  As for the waterfront at Talleyrand, I have no problem with it remaining industrial.  If anything, we need more maritime related industry there.

Quote from: adam421 on February 03, 2011, 05:47:41 PM
I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

How does Mr. Hogan plan to fund these while cutting government spending?

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2011, 10:26:16 PM

Quote from: adam421 on February 03, 2011, 05:47:41 PM
I'm excited to see a mayoral candidate come out and specifically point out that we need a convention center, cruise terminal, and say "Let's get the city owned property off the river and get that property on the tax roll." NO OTHER CANIDATE IS SAYING IT!

Pixie dust?

How does Mr. Hogan plan to fund these while cutting government spending?

That Miracle Miles looks to be a bit more than just a mile, maybe they should rethink the name.

I don't think downtown would benefit by having a cruise terminal right in town. The entire terminal will basically be no different than an industrial site, you'll have huge ships blocking the river view from anywhere on the ground, and you'd require thousands of parking spaces for people taking cruises. I can't think of many developments that would be less conducive to walkability, water access, or visual appeal. Its not like the people taking cruises will be hanging out in the city before or after their cruise,so all you do is increase vehicle traffic and area used for vehicle storage (basically some big ships next to a couple city blocks of concrete).

What is supposed to be involved in the Miracle Mile apart from the Landing (which is far from miraculous) and a cruise terminal several miles away? Any city-led development along the river will not work no matter how much money you put into it if, like the Landing, it is only appealing from the water and not connected to the rest of the town. And if they add a bunch of parking lots, forget about it.

Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

DT Norfolk's terminal:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/840663010_43c5j-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/840663023_T3zqL-M.jpg)

Tampa's terminal:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/840663059_67PRT-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/840663072_PmfiC-M.jpg)

Key West's terminal:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/840662973_haH2K-M.jpg)

Unfortunately, our core is a good distance and three bridges from the coast.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2011, 02:40:05 PM
Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

The Norfolk one looks good in the picture, but it doesn't appear to be particularly walkable or have significant retail in the vicinity.
The Tampa picture with the huge ship in it does not look appealing at all, though the streetcar tracks are promising. However, if you look at it on a map, it is not at all in a downtown area. That apparent activity is the result of an aquarium and a huge mall filled with chain stores, all surrounded by parking lots and garages. Not the best recipe for a thriving downtown.
The Key West port does look legitimately great, but it is not really a terminal at all, as Key West is not the home port for any big cruise ships. It is a port of call, meaning Mallory Square Dock (pictured) is a destination rather than a point of embarkation. So yea, if you dock a ship filled with thousands of people somewhere for a day, that place will probably get an economic benefit. If you can convince a cruiseline to start taking trips TO Jacksonville, then you might see some nice economic benefit by parking the ships downtown. However, if you are leaving from Jacksonville to cruise somewhere else, I don't think you're going to see much benefit in Jacksonville except to the cruise industry and the airport (and rail between the two if it existed!). People don't get to the terminal and start walking around town with all their luggage. They just get on the ship.

Even if cruise passengers were going to businesses near the terminal, if you don't have multiple ships leaving and arriving each day, you're not going to have the consistent customers needed to keep a business open. Its like trying to use a football stadium to encourage development: You can do great business on the 10 days per year that there's an event, but that won't keep you in business. Putting a cruise terminal downtown will not increase cruise traffic, and I believe it does more harm than good for downtown development. That space can be better utilized, and you don't cut off a significant portion of the river right where you'd like to have access. More cruise traffic is certainly better for the city, but I don't think downtown is the place for it.

Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 04, 2011, 04:07:34 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2011, 02:40:05 PM
Cruise terminals don't have to be industrial.  Here are a few that benefit their urban cores by bringing more people into a compact area, which supports the local retail, dining and entertainment scene.

The Norfolk one looks good in the picture, but it doesn't appear to be particularly walkable or have significant retail in the vicinity.

Looks can be deceiving.  Norfolk is pretty walkable and the amount of retail within walking distance of the terminal is more than DT Jax will see combined in the next decade.  Here are a few images of this area from a summer 2007 visit.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1521-norfolk-aerial.jpg)
The Norfolk cruise terminal was constructed as an anchor to Tower Point Park.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1530-p1020358.JPG)
Assuming a walk from the cruise terminal through the park is about a block, MacArthur Center Mall is about a four walk block from the terminal.  The mall is anchored by a Nordstrom, Dillards and Regal Cinemas 18, has restaurants facing the downtown street and does not have any surface parking.  The blocks between the terminal and mall are lined with a mix of lofts, offices, restaurants and local retail.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1536-p1020375.JPG)
Nauticus, The National Maritime Center, is constructed on a former pier adjacent to Town Point Park.  Immediately next to the popular museum is the permanently docked USS Wisconsin, which is open for public tours.  These attractions serve as the cruise ship's immediate neighborhoods in the park.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1520-p1020387.JPG)
Waterside, Norfolk's version of the Landing, is located on the south side of the park.  Its filled with ground level restaurants and bars.

All in all, if you're going to integrate a cruise ship terminal into a downtown environment, Norfolk may serve as the best example.

QuoteThe Tampa picture with the huge ship in it does not look appealing at all, though the streetcar tracks are promising. However, if you look at it on a map, it is not at all in a downtown area. That apparent activity is the result of an aquarium and a huge mall filled with chain stores, all surrounded by parking lots and garages. Not the best recipe for a thriving downtown.

The funny thing is Tampa's Channel District (our version of the Stadium District/Bay Street area) has just as much urban building density as DT Jax.  Something to also keep in mind is not to look at a cruise ship terminal as a one trick pony that will spur tons of economic development.  The context and places complementing uses within a compact setting of each other is what help's each individual use succeed on a larger level.  With that said, Tampa's terminal, Channelside and the aquarium would all be worse off if not located immediately adjacent to each other to create synergy and vibrancy.

QuoteThe Key West port does look legitimately great, but it is not really a terminal at all, as Key West is not the home port for any big cruise ships. It is a port of call, meaning Mallory Square Dock (pictured) is a destination rather than a point of embarkation. So yea, if you dock a ship filled with thousands of people somewhere for a day, that place will probably get an economic benefit. If you can convince a cruiseline to start taking trips TO Jacksonville, then you might see some nice economic benefit by parking the ships downtown. However, if you are leaving from Jacksonville to cruise somewhere else, I don't think you're going to see much benefit in Jacksonville except to the cruise industry and the airport (and rail between the two if it existed!). People don't get to the terminal and start walking around town with all their luggage. They just get on the ship.

You mentioned something important here about Mallory Square. It's a destination.  A good terminal should be more than a point of embarkment.  It should be designed to fit within the surrounding context and help that particular area be a destination itself.  Norfolk's and Tampa's cruise terminals do just that. Regardless of where Jax's terminal ends up, if we really want to get economic benefit out of it, it needs to be a part of a destination.  This is the reason, I actually prefer the Mayport location.  A well integrated, mixed-use terminal in that location has the potential to be a part of a larger destination (authentic fishing/shrimping village).

QuoteEven if cruise passengers were going to businesses near the terminal, if you don't have multiple ships leaving and arriving each day, you're not going to have the consistent customers needed to keep a business open. Its like trying to use a football stadium to encourage development: You can do great business on the 10 days per year that there's an event, but that won't keep you in business.

Its sort of like a convention center in that regard.  This is why its important to design structures like these to be mixed-use as opposed to single use, as well as placing them in an environment where they can add to the vibrancy as opposed to being the sole provider of traffic.  

QuotePutting a cruise terminal downtown will not increase cruise traffic, and I believe it does more harm than good for downtown development. That space can be better utilized, and you don't cut off a significant portion of the river right where you'd like to have access. More cruise traffic is certainly better for the city, but I don't think downtown is the place for it.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4540-p1090741.JPG)
San Juan's cruise terminal is a good example of accommodating the industry and still maintaining public access on the waterfront.

If a terminal were constructed in DT, the Shipyards would be good location, due to the wharves already in place.  Nevertheless, a bad design will do harm in any location.  A good well thought of design would bring benefit.  However, the largest reason I see for not locating a cruise terminal downtown is that its too far inland and bridge height limitations.  If we're going to do a terminal, I think taking a Norfolk or Tampa approach to design and integration in Mayport makes the most sense.

Norfolk, heart of the metro area I call home, serves as a great comparison point as usual.

As Lake correctly notes, there is a tremendous amount of density and retail within walking distance of the Half Moone cruise terminal in Norfolk.

I don't think a downtown terminal's distance from the coast should be a major issue--Norfolk's isn't all that close to the coast either--but obviously bridge height is.

Incidentally, Waterside in Norfolk (the complex very similar to the Landing) is almost completely empty now, despite the success of the rest of downtown.  It's due to a combination of some criminal incidents and lease disagreements.  The Landing is a very healthy and vibrant place compared to Waterside.

We may very well need a convention center ONE DAY.   NOT RIGHT NOW.  We have far more important issues at hand than a new convention center on Riverfront property.  Like not losing ONE MORE HISTORIC Building.  How about bringing something to downtown that will make people want to live there again (in larger numbers , than present)  How about diverse destinations which utilize some of the long-vacant buildings ?   

Putting a Convention Center on the Water is NOT going to revitalize Downtown.

And at present , Moran would get my vote long before Mike Hogan. :)

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on February 04, 2011, 06:00:34 PM
Norfolk, heart of the metro area I call home, serves as a great comparison point as usual.

As Lake correctly notes, there is a tremendous amount of density and retail within walking distance of the Half Moone cruise terminal in Norfolk.

I don't think a downtown terminal's distance from the coast should be a major issue--Norfolk's isn't all that close to the coast either--but obviously bridge height is.

Incidentally, Waterside in Norfolk (the complex very similar to the Landing) is almost completely empty now, despite the success of the rest of downtown.  It's due to a combination of some criminal incidents and lease disagreements.  The Landing is a very healthy and vibrant place compared to Waterside.

I was in Norfolk last fall and visited Waterside which actually has a marina in front of it.  Completely shocked!  It was a ghost town that is deader than Regency Square.  Waterfront, nearby museum, nice architecture....somebody really messed up.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
 Nevertheless, a bad design will do harm in any location.  A good well thought of design would bring benefit.

Amen

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 06, 2011, 01:05:10 PM

I was in Norfolk last fall and visited Waterside which actually has a marina in front of it.  Completely shocked!  It was a ghost town that is deader than Regency Square.  Waterfront, nearby museum, nice architecture....somebody really messed up.

Not to mention the direct connection by skywalk to a sizable parking garage and the Marriott, and the Sheraton next door.

It was in OK shape until a year or a year and a half ago, but the aforementioned legal and crime issues chased out its best and most popular tenants.  And even before then, MacArthur Center and the bar/restaurant district that took off along Granby St. had stolen a lot of its thunder.

In honor of the idiot politicians and supporters of the Dames Point Bridge, I motion for a redesignation of the Dames Point Bridge to Damn Point Bridge. If the bridge wasn't for the ultra-conservative behavior of those folks, then we would have an effective cruise port CLOSER to the bloody city.

-Josh