In my personal opinion, I think the public education system for primary and secondary system is failing out students badly. From what I hear from the university system this problem is now crawling up the undergraduate system and is only going to get worse. Of course, my opinion is in the minority. Why do I say that?
Because the system is still the same and hasn't changed! I'm ready to change the system but anytime I try anything - and I mean ANYTHING, I have a mass of people ready to stop me. Maybe I haven't listened enough. Maybe one of you is part of these groups. So I'll take the time now to stop and listen.
Why is our education system so great that we shouldn't change it? Why are you stopping any change to the system? Why is our system the best in the world?
Can you elaborate on the sort of changes you've had blocked? Just curious!
One thing that always needs to be considered when comparing our public education system to any other in the world is the diversity of our student population. In some countries, a one-size-fits-all approach may work because they are all the same size. From my perspective, it doesn't work at all here. Same can be said about health care.
It employees a lot of people, and is free day care, and well kids will learn SOMETHIG while there.
That is about all I can think of good.
dougskiles, what do you mean by the diversity of our students? How is it so different from other countries?
Why am I confused about education reform? Because we are so eager to model our education system after those of other nations, and yet we are ready to fight when someone suggests that we model our health care system after these same 'progressive' nations. And, putting health care aside, these education reformers are the same ones who look down on those other 'socialist' nations when we praise anything else that they do well. LOL
Perhaps our parents and students are failing our education system. Facilities and transportation are provided. Books, libraries, computers, and internet access are provided. Curriculums are devised and tests are given... yet 25% of our students cannot even be bothered to finish?
Parents and students seem to be pointing the finger at "the system" while refusing to point their collective fingers at themselves. What about the 75% who do manage to graduate? The system managed to get them through and most of them on to higher education.
The failures of our education system may be more a failure of society and culture than it is the education system.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 08:39:19 AM
Perhaps our parents and students are failing our education system. Facilities and transportation are provided. Books, libraries, computers, and internet access are provided. Curriculums are devised and tests are given... yet 25% of our students cannot even be bothered to finish?
Parents and students seem to be pointing the finger at "the system" while refusing to point their collective fingers at themselves. What about the 75% who do manage to graduate? The system managed to get them through and most of them on to higher education.
The failures of our education system may be more a failure of society and culture than it is the education system.
+10000
The problem is in some schools that of society who does not give a flip is the majority and it impacts everyone. At times I ask why I am even sending my child to school. She is reviewing Pre-K stuff in class and is only really learning at her level at home with the work we do with her. At school math consists of problems like "if you have one apple, and Paul gives you two apples how many apples do you have" while at home we are working on multiplication tables. At school they are reading picture books, while at home we are reading Little House on the Prairrie and Nancy Drew. At school they teach down to the lowest common denominator and it impacts all the other students in class. It isn't even at an intellectual level either. If one child is disruptive and cannot behave ALL the children are kept in for recess...WTH? One child in class is allergic to wheat, so no cupcakes for Birthdays and such. No Halloween parties are allowed too religious, but they sing songs in music class about Jesus? Yep Homeschool or private next year.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 01, 2011, 08:05:37 AM
dougskiles, what do you mean by the diversity of our students? How is it so different from other countries?
What countries have the racial diversity comparable to the United States? And are those the same countries that we are trying to compare ourselves with? How many 'african-chinese' are there? Is that even a group large enough to justify such a name?
Do the teaching methods that work for one set of kids growing up in a particular environment work for a group growing up in a completely different environment?
My response to anyone with great ideas about how to fix the education system is to go to the worst school you can think of and volunteer your services. We have plenty of policy makers. We need more foot soldiers.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2011, 09:45:30 AM
The difference is in how these countries handle 'diversity', and there are a number of models from which to learn---both the positive and the negative.
Please elaborate. I'm not saying we are the most diverse, what I'm asking is how do we measure up with those who face similar issues. There are always going to be variations within any population. Some appear to have more contrast within the variation than others. Some countries are diverse, but don't make any attempt to treat the groups equally. I don't see how we can have an intelligent conversation about improving education without acknowledging the differences. What works for one group is not necessarily going to work for the other.
http://www.tuftsdaily.com/yale-professor-champions-chinese-mothers-strictness-tough-love-in-new-book-1.2450842
So people of different ethnicities learn differently?
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 01, 2011, 02:22:45 PM
So people of different ethnicities learn differently?
So people
of different ethnicities learn differently.
So other countries are tailoring their education systems to the needs of the individual? Really? Perhaps you could show me where this is the case. I actually thought the opposite was true... most of these countries who score better than our students were actually more regimented and less likely to tailor curriculums to individuals.
Our system is far from perfect. However, we are incredibly fortunate that we have the opportunity to get involved and do something about it.
Quote from: cityimrov on February 01, 2011, 12:29:42 AM
Because the system is still the same and hasn't changed! I'm ready to change the system but anytime I try anything - and I mean ANYTHING, I have a mass of people ready to stop me. Maybe I haven't listened enough. Maybe one of you is part of these groups. So I'll take the time now to stop and listen.
Forgive me for asking about something that you may have explained in previous threads. Can you explain what you have tried to do and how you were stopped?
I should make a note here. It wasn't me who had these blocked but people who tried.
The one of the stronger ones is the ability to fire unproductive & even violent teachers. From what I hear from the administration who heard from the district lawyers, they basically said "deal with it". And they dealt with it shuffling the teacher with a poor class after class until the law arrested him from some outside violent crime.
The other big thing is teacher hiring. Your not allowed to hire people from the real world with real experiences (i.e. you can have a PhD with a Nobel Prize in Mathematics and enthusiasm to teach kids where even the staff recognizes your enthusiasm but you aren't allowed to teach unless you spend lots of money & time fulfilling certain government requirements). My ideal education system is a bunch of elderly experienced successful people who went out in the world and now come back to school during their retirement to help share to future generations the knowledge they learned. Our system doesn't allow that unless you are willing to jump through A LOT of hoops.
Even then, once that happens, your limited to teach only what's in the curriculum no matter how useless it may be in real life application. Especially in advance courses.
Just a note about the current system. Sure, in our countries, they do the centralized thing but based on several reasons including homogeneous population, they are good at that. In our country, we try to do a mix of individualized teaching (hopefully) and forced centralized curriculum (current trend) - we're trying to do everything and ending up doing badly on both!
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2011, 05:31:01 PM
so again........how?
you claimed the public schools were failing the students. But you havent mentioned how.
It sounds like they are failing some personell issue, which is a separate issue.
What exactly are you talking about?
They aren't separate issues.
Let's start with the first and most important one. If you can't fire violent/incompetent teachers, you have a destruction of moral among all the good teachers.
How can I (if I am a good teacher), can even think about education when I'm spending all my time thinking about how to protect myself from my teacher next door who is violent and rude? In the private school next door, if a teacher isn't up to standards, they fire them! Why is this nearly impossible to do so with our current system?
Why isn't the local administration allowed to make better decisions that is best for their school?
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2011, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on February 01, 2011, 05:36:34 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2011, 05:31:01 PM
so again........how?
you claimed the public schools were failing the students. But you havent mentioned how.
It sounds like they are failing some personell issue, which is a separate issue.
What exactly are you talking about?
They aren't separate issues.
Let's start with the first and most important one. If you can't fire violent/incompetent teachers, you have a destruction of moral among all the good teachers.
How can I (if I am a good teacher), can even think about education when I'm spending all my time thinking about how to protect myself from my teacher next door who is violent and rude? In the private school next door, if a teacher isn't up to standards, they fire them! Why is this nearly impossible to do so with our current system?
Why isn't the local administration allowed to make better decisions that is best for their school?
You seem to have a valid concern, but how is our public school system failing our kids?
Oh that. It's because we want the system to do everything while not doing anything particularly well. We want it to educate, be daycare, nanny system, job provider, employer, cop, and so forth. The mission has been muddled so much it's hard to say what the system is suppose to be doing.
It tries to do everything and ends up not doing anything it does particularly well.
Stephen, Public school is open and free to everyone, which is fantastic! Well, if everyone there is there to learn something, if parents and children, and teachers, and administration is showing up daily to make that happen.
A LOT of parents send their children to school because it is day care, or they need them to attend so many days or benefits get cut, or most basically it is the LAW. So if it is required y law to send your children to school, it should also be required by law (or to fulfill some guideline for free aide) that your children progress to a certain level. The entire class should not be held back by one student who is not performing because their parents could give a flip about ensuring they receive AND most importantly absorb a decent education. Parents and teachers should be held more accountantable for how children progress. Teaching down should not be allowed (there is free tutoring offerred at the urban schools!).
Laws/rules should be changed since some people can obviously give birth, but cannot be bothered to raise their children. Not only should a child have to show up to school, but they should also have to learn something based on their scored level. We spend a lot of money ensuring all children can get an education in this country, but we miss the boat here. It is not just about ensuring a child shows up to class, it is what they are absorbing and taking along with them that counts.
We have like three or four schools in Duval that are being looked at for closure correct? The concern here is those students are going to go somewhere, and wherever that is why would we expect the performance to be better? We keep looking at the schools and the teachers, but not the parents and the students. are we failing because we expect the schools and teachers to work miracles, with no support or input from the students and parents?
This is a good reason we should not close failing schools. Leave them open and allow parents of students who want to learn to move to a school with similarly motivated students.
For a perfect example of what is WRONG with public schools watch First Coast News. Grandma was on talking about how the schools are horrible, and are failing her grandkids. She makes sure they have a PERFECT attendance, they are there everyday and still can't read at grade level.
Not once did she say she works with them, that they read together at night, that she is participating in any way shape or form, according to her, her only responsibility is making sure those grandkids show up everyday.
Again, unless parents are responsible for more than attendance, these students will take failing grades to the new school (or remade school). All that is going to happen is we the tax payors are going to spend more money on trying to fill the gap bad parents leave.
Let me give you all an excerpt from one of my child's science 'books':
Quote....Turning off the faucet while you brush our teeth conserves water. So does fixing a leaky faucet. [new paragraph]Protecting resources includes keeping water and air clean. Living things, including humans, cannot survive without them. Laws help prevent automobiles and factories from releasing harmful materials into the environment. Humans depend on living thihngs for food, clothing, and medicines. That makes it important to protect plants and animals and their habitats so that they do not disappear.
I say 'books' because I never see an actual textbook, just leaflets that he brings home for homework. (that we review most every night)
Aside from the simple sentence structure, the fragmented thoughts and the blatant grammatical errors - what does this actually
teach them? Nothing. There are questions below that are asked such as, "__________ prevents automobiles from releasing harmful materials into the environment?"
Are you F-ing kidding me? I've spoken to his teachers, I've spoken with the principal and while they agree, they each fall back to - "Your son is a very intelligent child, but we have to teach more kids than -------."
I'm not blaming the faculty, they're truly good people, I blame the system that is being taught. So while I do rant & rave on the site on a few topics that really don't interest me (it's the dialoge that I mostly enjoy), this is a subject that hits really close to home that I'm truly unhappy about and unable to fix.
Here's to hoping that the Magnet School in Paxon lives up to it's billng.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
This is a good reason we should not close failing schools. Leave them open and allow parents of students who want to learn to move to a school with similarly motivated students.
Sounds strangely like our magnet schools. But, seriously, I would not mind having motivated parents move their children to better schools. What scares me is that the slacker parents and their slacker kids will be left behind in a failing schools - and all of the blame will be forced on the 'bad teachers.'
WOW Redneck, that is even worse than the copied sheets my little one brings home. That is also the same excuse I get, we have to teach to <fill in the blank> too. While I like to think my little angel is a genius, the fact of the matter is we work on math, reading, science, and social studies at home, and way beyond what her class is doing in school. All kids are smart, they need the time and assistance to be GREAT and that can't happen with a class ratio of 25:1. What really burns me is these same people complaining have access to free tutoring (well free for them), but are too lazy to do even that.
IMO, the ratios don't matter, it's the methodology. Our schools are teaching kids how to take a standardized test via memory and not critical thinking. I get it. Give them short sentences, each with a basic point, and then reinforce that point with a question below. It truly is only 'fill in the blank.' I can deal with the grammer, hopefully they'll be taught the finer points later (though it bothers me to no end). I can deal with the fragmented thought structure (it does serve it's purposes in today's attention deficit world). But I can't deal with them not being taught analysis and critical thinking (see the JEA post.) ;) A chimp can be taught to pick a word out of a sentence to fill in the blank of question that mimics the original point, but ask the chimp, referring back to my original post, "What are in place to prevent harmful materials from being released into our environment?" - It the same GD question, with the same GD answer, but as simple as it seems, it forces little Johnny to actually pay attention and possibly even comprehend what they just read - not just scan above and fill in the blank.
It doesn't take a genius to figure it out, it took me about 30 seconds with my 11 yro, "How did you get that answer? Dad, it's right there. [points to the sentence]" Basically everything seems to be an open book exam that you don't even need to turn the page to find an answer.
Quote from: Jaxson on February 04, 2011, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
This is a good reason we should not close failing schools. Leave them open and allow parents of students who want to learn to move to a school with similarly motivated students.
Sounds strangely like our magnet schools. But, seriously, I would not mind having motivated parents move their children to better schools. What scares me is that the slacker parents and their slacker kids will be left behind in a failing schools - and all of the blame will be forced on the 'bad teachers.'
That is exactly what we did. Our local middle school was a horror. Sent our child to a magnet downtown. Unfortunately... the high school she was to attend was as horrific as the middle school. We bit the bullet and sent her to a Catholic High school. Best money I ever spent...
We also spent years listening to teachers tell us variations of "teaching to the least common denominator"...
Yep, it is a racial thing, certainly not a parental thing.... I rarely agree with comments on these news sites, but one teacher posted it and hit the nail on the head.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-04/story/state%E2%80%99s-top-educator-visits-duval-defends-himself-and-state-law
State’s top educator visits Duval, defends himself and state law
Posted: February 4, 2011 - 8:46pmPhotos Video
KELLY JORDAN/The Times-Union
State of Florida Education Commissioner Eric Smith walks down a hallway at North Shore K-8 school during a tour of the school Friday morning, February 4.
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By Topher Sanders
The state’s top educator on Friday toured one of Duval County’s most struggling schools, met with frustrated community members and responded to recent criticism from the School Board.
Education Commissioner Eric Smith’s visit came a day after he was called “untrustworthy†and “unreliable†by School Board Chairman W.C. Gentry.
PHOTO GALLERY: Commissioner's visit
Gentry said the school system was led to believe its initial plan for the school system’s most struggling schools would satisfy the state’s requirements but was told later by Smith it wouldn’t be enough.
The commissioner said his feedback to the board has been consistent as the school system has worked on the best course of action for its four intervene schools: Andrew Jackson, Raines and Ribault high schools and North Shore K-8.
“I’ve been very consistent, and again that’s a little concerning,†Smith said, referring to the criticism. “Efforts to villainize me in the process doesn’t help us get to the right answer and it shifts the conversation from what it really needs to be focused on.â€
State law requires the school system to pick either turning the schools into charter schools, hiring an outside management organization to run the schools or closing them.
The School Board is pitching a governance structure that would allow it to maintain control while it receives input from a community-based organization on key functions of the schools.
That plan does not follow the letter of the law and it is unknown if Smith will accept it. He said he expects to give the School Board his response to its plans by Monday.
Smith started his jam-packed day at North Shore K-8 where he visited classrooms, talked with teachers and students and received a presentation from Principal Tarsha Mitchell.
After touring the school, Smith was complimentary of Mitchell and her staff and said if what he saw was indicative of the entire school, it may avoid the drastic consequences being discussed by the School Board and state.
Smith later met with Isaiah Rumlin, president of the local NAACP chapter, who gave him about 4,000 signed petitions before he talked to more than 100 community members at St. Joseph Missionary Baptist Church.
“We do not want an EMO [education management organization], Mr. Commissioner,†Rumlin said, referring to the state option to have the schools run by an outside management group. “We feel we have the quality teachers and administrators here in this city that could turn these schools around if given the right resources.â€
Smith said the problems in Duval County’s struggling schools have existed for about a decade and that the school district’s leaders had ample time to turn things around but hadn’t.
“This isn’t something new, this didn’t just occur and all of sudden we had a crisis,†Smith said. “It’s been a crisis 12 or eight years ago, and this conversation probably should have been held at that point.â€
Rumlin said he believed money may be motivating the possible privatization of the schools, rather than what’s best for students.
“It appears to be a conspiracy against our black schools,†he said. All four of the intervene schools are predominately black.
Smith, who only took one question at the community forum, said later that neither he nor the state are looking to privatize schools in black communities in search of profits.
“The objective is to find the right formula that works for kids,†he said. “That’s the bottom line.â€
Smith also heard from School Board members Betty Burney and Paula Wright, who attended the community meeting, about the importance of maintaining black schools and how the state’s exams in science seem to contradict the scores seen in reading.
Smith later said during a Times-Union editorial board meeting that reading is a key benchmark for evaluating schools and is an indicator of whether an intervene school deserves the opportunity to continue its program and governance.
Responding to questions about why the state was requiring districts to declare now what they will do in June if their schools don’t improve, Smith said state law dictates that plans be submitted in February.
He also addressed Duval officials’ concern that the law seemed to indicate that a school district had just one year to try each of the options. If a school failed to improve in that year, the board would have to move onto another option until finally being forced to close the school.
Smith said that is not how he or his attorneys are interpreting the law. He said that if the district were to choose, for example, to hire a management organization and the organization produced gains but not enough to exit intervene, that he could recommend to the state that the group get an additional year to see if they can continue to improve scores. Or a district could fire a management organization that wasn’t working and hire a new organization the next year.
“We’re reading the statute literally,†said Superintendent Ed Pratt-Dannals. “It may be one of the things we need to talk about for clarification.â€
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-04/story/state%E2%80%99s-top-educator-visits-duval-defends-himself-and-state-law#ixzz1DBfwZ2qb
Anyone read or watch Freaknomics? I read the book, now watching the documentary. There is an interesting segment on education in Chicago. At risk children are enrolled in a program that pays them to get good grades. each student gets $50 a month when they maintain a certain average, and also enter a lottery to win $500. staff actually calls each student and/or their parents about the grades, if falling behind they discuss what is going to happen to catch back up. Maybe a good expenditure of funds....