QuoteThe contracts are considered "critical" by the state Department of Transportation, which is charged with getting the $1.2 billion project up and running.
SunRail supporters had hoped to begin construction by spring, but that date could be in doubt, depending on the length of Scott's review.
Scott's action surprised advocates of the commuter train.
Heather Allebaugh, a spokesman for Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, said city officials did not know of the hold until told by a reporter.
Dyer, in fact, had run a meeting earlier in the day to discuss the status of SunRail and expressed confidence that the train was on schedule for a 2013 startup.
Noreanne Downs, who runs the state Department of Transportation in Central Florida, predicted during the meeting that Scott's office would approve the contracts as early as next week.
full article: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/os-sunrail-contracts-delayed-20110128,0,5174052.story
It will probably be killed, but for the wrong reasons.
It really comes down to passengers still needing a car in both of those cities. So instead of riding the train for an hour just to have to rent a car once you get there, I'd personally rather just drive my car & save the hassle.
Fix the transportation infrastructure in the cities FIRST, then worry about connecting them: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/03/22/us/0322RAIL_index.html?ref=highspeedrailprojects
Sun Rail and the HSR between Tampa and Orlando are not the same thing.
http://www.sunrail.com
I know he didn't understand the difference between HSR and the sunrail project, but he's got a valid point. Our state cannot get away from "Park and Ride" solutions that require you to have a car at either end, and this negates the utility of rail transit. Spend money on streetcars and car-free neighborhood connectivity first, then worry about connectimg the cities. Sun Rail, FWIW, is as guilty of this as anything, most users would have had to drive to the stations and park. Most normal people are just going to say "screw it I may as well just drive the whole way."
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 30, 2011, 11:43:37 AM
Sun Rail and the HSR between Tampa and Orlando are not the same thing.
http://www.sunrail.com
I know that, but the projects will co-exist together & be under the same type of scrutiny. Trust me, they'll get to the HSR project & put it under the same microscope too.
The example "test run" of the link I provided should be an eye opener to the fact that we have way bigger fish to fry first, meaning getting real viable public transportation into these cities first. If you don't have that & you don't have a complete end to end solution, then you're not giving people a reason to ditch their cars & they'll just drive the whole way.
I'm not sure how to remedy this, but I do know that they're putting the cart before the horse. Start small with streetcar or light rail connectivity, then move forward from there. Without that, the whole thing is destined to fail. It'll be another Skyway, but on a whole nother level.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 30, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
I know he didn't understand the difference between HSR and the sunrail project, but he's got a valid point. Our state cannot get away from "Park and Ride" solutions that require you to have a car at either end, and this negates the utility of rail transit. Spend money on streetcars and car-free neighborhood connectivity first, then worry about connectimg the cities. Sun Rail, FWIW, is as guilty of this as anything, most users would have had to drive to the stations and park. Most normal people are just going to say "screw it I may as well just drive the whole way."
Even though Sunrail will be commuter rail, its exactly the type of system that is needed to make intercity projects like HSR more viable. When Sunrail is up and running, Orlando will have a north/south rail spine connecting many destinations and walkable districts together.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/cfrail/24421222sv7.jpg)
Quote from: peestandingup on January 30, 2011, 10:24:40 AM
Fix the transportation infrastructure in the cities FIRST, then worry about connecting them:
No reason why it shouldn't happen at the same time.
Warning to investor companies on Florida rail projects - think twice before making that bid.
Sunrail should be operational before HSR and they already have a decent downtown BRT circulator up and running, so Orlando does look to be on the right track. Tampa has more work to do.
i hope that as rick scott freezes sunrail he changes the high speed rail so high speed rail comes downtown with sunrail at church st station.
Quote from: yapp1850 on January 30, 2011, 02:05:48 PM
i hope that as rick scott freezes sunrail he changes the high speed rail so high speed rail comes downtown with sunrail at church st station.
Its an opportunity to see how intelligent the new Governor really is. Change the HSR plan to the CSX alignment in Orlando and Tampa (at a minimum). Every station on SUNRAIL is already connected to Lynx Bus Transit, which in the last 3 years has surged ahead of JTA to become the 3rd largest in the state. So nobody will have to walk or rent a car, further the downtown already has BRT as the lakelander has stated and there is talk of LIGHT RAIL CONNECTIONS again. Sunrail is only about 1,000 times a better plan then the Florida HSR plan.
BUT... If I were to wager on this, I'd say he'll reroute them both... right...straight...to hell. (http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TUTJjOQRD1I/AAAAAAAAEKM/Vo6xviCksdA/s800/MYtrolleyimage-1.jpg)
My guess is everything will eventually move forward as is. While he delayed these contracts, he did approve the part of the deal that pays CSX.
QuoteLast week, Scott released $173 million in state money for CSX, the Jacksonville train company that is selling its tracks to the state for SunRail.
That money will be spent by CSX to improve another rail line it owns and to build a road to a new logistics center in Winter Haven.
is there room on the csx route to add 3 more tracks next to the main line so we can have intercity rail and commuter rail. just like how it is in the northeast.
There's room but I doubt that such a switch could be done without losing the $2.4 billion in federal money.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2011, 03:13:28 PM
My guess is everything will eventually move forward as is. While he delayed these contracts, he did approve the part of the deal that pays CSX.
QuoteLast week, Scott released $173 million in state money for CSX, the Jacksonville train company that is selling its tracks to the state for SunRail.
That money will be spent by CSX to improve another rail line it owns and to build a road to a new logistics center in Winter Haven.
Perhaps this is why Scott was out at Jaxport. If the state has paid CSX for ROW, then the CSX plan for Jaxport will proceed.
From my understanding, CSX won't pay for rail related port improvements until there's a demand. With Hajin delayed, that may not happen to later this decade.
If Scott really wants to save money, he should have killed 9B. He can still kill the Outer Beltway. Let's see if he kills worthless urban sprawl road projects as quickly as he holds up rail ones. I have my doubts.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2011, 03:31:40 PM
There's room but I doubt that such a switch could be done without losing the $2.4 billion in federal money.
and delay the project at least 10 more years.
FYI....a study is soon to get underway to study the feasibility of extending SunRail to Tampa along the CSX tracks.
I'm sure these will be done, so the land owners can continue to fund his campaigns.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2011, 03:13:28 PM
My guess is everything will eventually move forward as is. While he delayed these contracts, he did approve the part of the deal that pays CSX.
QuoteLast week, Scott released $173 million in state money for CSX, the Jacksonville train company that is selling its tracks to the state for SunRail.
That money will be spent by CSX to improve another rail line it owns and to build a road to a new logistics center in Winter Haven.
Why doesn't that surprise me?!
As Paula Dockery said, the entire Orlando Commuter line was a state government hand-out to CSX. With a projected ridership of 2,500 per day, it obviously wasn't about the commuters!
http://www.loblawyers.com/blog/paula-dockerys-letter-exposes-unfairness-of-csx-deal.cfm
Sunrail is only the best of any commuter rail project in America. The fact that it penetrates every major community in the Orlando Metro Area, and does what HSR should be doing (ie: serve a real market).
The Dockery's know as much about commuter rail as I do about child birth. Doc couldn't defend a single point of his plan when we debated it with rail officials in the FRA dog and pony show. The fact that she turned this into a commuter rail vs HSR contest is ridiculous and did nothing but harm passenger rail in front of the entire legislature.
Sunrail vs the current HSR plan? Sunrail will probably carry about double the passengers they think its going to carry, in short it will blow away the ridership predictions, why? because it is usable. If they both get built, Sunrail is going to quickly be looking for ways to expand and over on HSR they're going to be looking for ways to convert the line to haul phosphate rock. It actually makes more sense as a phosphate carrier then the current route does as a passenger route. NOBODY lives along the HSR line, there are more people between Jacksonville and Palatka, then from the Orlando Airport to Tampa via I-4, so who's going to ride?
Canceling Sunrail will be a true transit disaster for Central Florida, just as canceling HSR will be only more so. Building HSR on the current route does NOTHING for metropolitan Central Florida, but shifted to the CSX alignment it will be something of a record setter. Scott could hit a home run here, or he could completely foul it up.
(http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/45997/2557864200104969885S425x425Q85.jpg)
Yeah, the Sunrail route is actually a pretty good commuter rail corridor. I parallels I-4 and hits the downtown of that metro's major cities. Right off the bat, it will be possible to live in a walkable area like Winter Park and hop on a train to MCO, to catch a flight out of town. Right off the bat, someone in Deland will be able to catch a train and get dropped off in the middle of Church Street to catch a Magic game. Right off the bat, one could live in Kissimmee and take the train to Florida Hospital (a major employer in urban Orlando). All of this while avoiding I-4. While we can debate the costs of implementing this system, the actual corridor itself is a pretty good one.
Quote from: FayeforCure on January 31, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
Why doesn't that surprise me?!
As Paula Dockery said, the entire Orlando Commuter line was a state government hand-out to CSX. With a projected ridership of 2,500 per day, it obviously wasn't about the commuters!
State Sen. Dockery (a Republican btw), has been wrong about SunRail for a long time....yet she is pro HSR (maybe because her husband has spent millions promoting it)....sadly she has yet to understand how the two services could complement each other.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 31, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
Quote from: FayeforCure on January 31, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
Why doesn't that surprise me?!
As Paula Dockery said, the entire Orlando Commuter line was a state government hand-out to CSX. With a projected ridership of 2,500 per day, it obviously wasn't about the commuters!
State Sen. Dockery (a Republican btw), has been wrong about SunRail for a long time....yet she is pro HSR (maybe because her husband has spent millions promoting it)....sadly she has yet to understand how the two services could complement each other.
Oh she understands that just fine........she just looks to get Florida a better bang for the buck. The commuter rail line was a CSX sweetheart deal, plain and simple (clear from Rick Scott not freezing that CSX "contract" too).
The HSR line will be precedent setting, has the cheapest per mile cost, and will for once put Florida at the forefront instead of being a sleepy regressive retirement community!!!
Orlando may be in my 5 year plan and Sunrail would be a positive and I would try to live in walking distance.
Quote from: FayeforCure on January 31, 2011, 10:58:44 AM
Oh she understands that just fine........she just looks to get Florida a better bang for the buck. The commuter rail line was a CSX sweetheart deal, plain and simple (clear from Rick Scott not freezing that CSX "contract" too).
The HSR line will be precedent setting, has the cheapest per mile cost, and will for once put Florida at the forefront instead of being a sleepy regressive retirement community!!!
huh? while I am a supporter of both rail lines, it is impossible to argue that HSR has the cheapest per mile cost....$2.7 Billion for 88 miles ($31 million per mile)...SunRail is $1.3 Billion (total cost for everything)...at 61 miles that is roughly $21 million per mile
btw...I agree that CSX is getting a pretty good deal w/ SunRail....but don't you think the Dockery's have some self-interest in HSR...if not, why would C.C. have spent millions getting it on the ballot back in 2000?
But Doc is an approved "crook" and CSX isn't. I agree btw, that this HSR line is expensive to the max. it is totally possible to build excellent railroad track for under $5 million a mile.
OCKLAWAHA
btw...here's the latest on HSR (including where Polk County station should be)
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/venturebiz/content/high-speed-rail-consortiums-push-tampa-orlando-link-even-projects-fate-unclear-0
http://www.lakewalesnews.com/articles/2011/01/29/county_page/doc4d432299e29de294351791.txt
Rick Scoot is going to stop any development that he's not getting any cash from...he's bringing this state to it's knees just like his party has done...welcome to Florida all...the state being led by a lying thief who should be in jail....welcome one and all....the land of lies...
From what I've read, all Scott did was put a mandatory hold on all contracts over $1 million. This happened to include SunRail as well as a bunch of others. I have no idea how one person can review all these contracts and make a sane decision in a short period of time but that's what happened.
It's hard to say what he will do. Scott isn't really one of those northern libertarians who canceled rail on the first day. He isn't a spend liberal either. I'm guessing the reason why Scott hasn't said anything like those guys above is the project is worth millions to billions of dollars and something about all that "free" federal money intrigues him.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 31, 2011, 02:17:46 PM
btw...here's the latest on HSR (including where Polk County station should be)
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/venturebiz/content/high-speed-rail-consortiums-push-tampa-orlando-link-even-projects-fate-unclear-0
http://www.lakewalesnews.com/articles/2011/01/29/county_page/doc4d432299e29de294351791.txt
Whats the combined Greyhound-Amtrak ridership between Lakeland and Tampa? Time savings with HSR will be negligible with such a short stage length. Student travel is probably wishful thinking since HSR will cost considerably more then current modes and MAYBE save 15 minutes.
I'll say it again, this bird won't fly and if it does, it is going to destroy the HSR movement in the United States. OCKLAWAHA
Student travel will most likely be made by car if the USF Poly site is chosen. There's no bus route anywhere near that site and residents recently voted down a sales tax increase proposal that would have funded one.