A Tale of Two Beers
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1149647894_Z7PNg-M.jpg)
North Florida is in the grip of old man winter, which basically means we are going to have a couple of really cold days followed by a week of mild days. Winters here can be confusing to the new arrival. Just about the time you pull out your winter coats, crank up the heat, and stock up on firewood the weather changes and everyone is wearing shorts and flip-flops again. Yes, north Florida is a magical place when it comes to winter weather.
But, the schizophrenic weather we Jacksonvillians endure does not mean that we can?t enjoy some good traditional winter beer. And by that I mean stouts and porters. Sure, the beer aficionados out there will argue that there are many other winter brews to choose from and that stouts and porters are quaffable year-round. And they would be correct. But, since this is my column and I want to write about stouts and porters, that is that.
Sit back gentle reader and let me take you on a little journey to the world of David Copperfield (the character, not the magician) and the Georgian and Victorian periods of England.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-a-tale-of-two-beers
Nice article Marc! I will be looking forward to these.
I cetainly learned something! Now all I have to do is sample them all ;)
Nice article. It is my understanding that Doubles are made by increasing the malt quantity by 50% and the hop count by 100%, which usually raises the ABV. Since Guiness is 4.1% ABV, wouldn't that make it a Dry Stout, rather than a Double?
Ben's King Street stout is delicious, but not for the faint of palate or liver. The Bold City smoky porter was also great, but I haven't seen it in a while.
Technically, yes. However, historically Guiness has been known as a double or Extra stout. As the years have passed Guiness has mellowed a bit. Also, the Guiness we get here in the states is not the same as what is served in England. Recently Guiness Foriegn Extra Stout has become available here with 7% ABV, which is closeer to the true double Guiness used to be.
Lost Abbey and Port Brewing had an event at the Porter Beer Bar last night in ATL
offerings including a stoutish beer called "Viscosity"......
I saw a Bell's Cherry Stout recently that looks tempting......
A lot of your article is misleading and downright incorrect. I don’t have time to completely edit your writing, but will make some easy corrections so that more and more readers do not propagate hearsay.
First, “stout†and porter are the exact same thing. It is up to the brewer to decide what style to call their beer. In general, stout and porter can be any darker beer with roasted malt (all beer by definition uses barley, hops, yeast, and water) and an abv of 5-7.5%. The word stout is from “stout porterâ€, which was a marketing term used by Guinness to describe their beer. Today Guinness is neither stout nor porter but a low abv Irish Dry Stout usually served on nitro. Guinness is one of the lightest dark beers in the world and if you actually hold it up to the light is not black at all! It is a clear ruby.
Second, London porters, in the true sense, are no longer made today. The traditional London porter would have been a blend of aged and soured porter with fresher, more roasty character. Since beer naturally sours with age if it is not in a controlled environment, it would have been very normal for aged porter to be sour. Londoners grew accustomed to this taste and so did others. Today, “London porter†is a gimmick and only a handful of breweries make it true to style such as New Glarus in Wisconsin. Porter, the name, comes from London porters (the people) who carried around beer on the street.
Yes, so traditional London porters could technically be considered barrel aged and stouts more fresh and roasty. But porter and stout in generic terms have no difference.
Third, it is highly unusual to bourbon barrel a porter. It was common to age part of a London porter so that it soured but using bourbon barrels for ANY beer did not start until Goose Island did this in 1992 with Bourbon County Stout.
Fourth, bourbon barrels do not impart smoky flavors. They impart vanilla, coconut, butter, and bourbon! Smoke comes from smoked malt, peated malt, or charred oak.
Next, Russian Imperial Stout has more hops and more alcohol to keep the beer from spoiling on its way to Russia. Hops and alcohol act as antibiotics. The high abv could keep it from freezing, but that was not the main point of the style.
Oats actually do the exact opposite of what you have described. Brewers had oats to create silky mouthfeels and make rich beers much easier on the palate. They do not create bitterness or astringency!
Not all oyster stouts are actually made with oysters and I highly doubt a brewer would add a dead piece of seafood into their fermentation vessel for risk of spoilage and infection. If real oysters were used at all, they would be used in the boil. But because this is no rare, the real name of oyster stout is because the beer PAIRS WELL with oysters. Some oyster stouts have a salty, briny character. But this is from the minerals in the beer and NOT from actual oysters.
If you have more questions you can email me at geeeter@gmail.com
Those that know me know that I have a sordid love affair with Cigar City Jai Alai IPA. Well I was dining at the Ravenous Pig in Winter Park recently(GREAT restaurant) and came across a beautiful temptress I began having an affair with. Her name is the Cigar City Madure Oatmeal Stout.
I highly recommend it, especially for those that want to try a good stout but are normally more reserved about the robustness of the flavor as the Madure is VERY smooth.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 20, 2011, 12:00:07 PM
Those that know me know that I have a sordid love affair with Cigar City Jai Alai IPA. Well I was dining at the Ravenous Pig in Winter Park recently(GREAT restaurant) and came across a beautiful temptress I began having an affair with. Her name is the Cigar City Madure Oatmeal Stout.
I highly recommend it, especially for those that want to try a good stout but are normally more reserved about the robustness of the flavor as the Madure is VERY smooth.
Totally agree with you on the Jai Alai, as I delve into my shoddy 'whine' tasting vocab, "Jai Alai delivers a clean, crisp nose with a bright bite, the finish tends to start off sharp and mellows its way as it gos down; and though while it's still an IPA, it doesn't carry the hoppy pretentiousnss of most."
An ale you have to try, if you haven't already, Delirium Noël by Brouwerj Huyghe(sic). It's a traditional Belgian Ale that has a great 'feel' to it. It may be considered a winter beer, but I think that it's a fantastic pour.
Guys, I am not a drinker, but have tried to get into beers - a couple friends are beer connoisseurs but they haven't been able to find anything I enjoy drinking. I'm the annoying "it all tastes like beer" guy. (Strangely enough when it comes to coffee, I'm a snob.) Any recommendations that I might like as a novice beer-taster? Something not too "off the wall?"
I think I'd prefer something designed for drinking at room-temperature versus something cold...
QuoteA lot of your article is misleading and downright incorrect. I don’t have time to completely edit your writing, but will make some easy corrections so that more and more readers do not propagate hearsay.
Interesting first post. Perhaps you could introduce yourself and fill us in regarding your qualifications and knowledge regarding our favorite beverage...
Quote from: Bativac on January 20, 2011, 12:49:53 PM
Guys, I am not a drinker, but have tried to get into beers - a couple friends are beer connoisseurs but they haven't been able to find anything I enjoy drinking. I'm the annoying "it all tastes like beer" guy. (Strangely enough when it comes to coffee, I'm a snob.) Any recommendations that I might like as a novice beer-taster? Something not too "off the wall?"
I think I'd prefer something designed for drinking at room-temperature versus something cold...
Your best bet would be going to Kickbacks, sitting at the bar and enjoying life. If they can't find something that you like, then you probably shouldn't be drinking beer in the first place. ;D
Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 20, 2011, 01:09:46 PM
QuoteA lot of your article is misleading and downright incorrect. I don’t have time to completely edit your writing, but will make some easy corrections so that more and more readers do not propagate hearsay.
Interesting first post. Perhaps you could introduce yourself and fill us in regarding your qualifications and knowledge regarding our favorite beverage...
Hi all, I am a beer nerd, beer reviewer, homebrewer, and ex-commercial brewer born and raised in Jax. I review primarily on ratebeer under the same handle with now almost 2,100 reviews. I have brewed commercially at the #1 brewery in the world as rated in 2008: De Struise Brouwers in Oostvleteren Belgium. I've brewed batches of Roste Jeanne, Struise Rosse as well as Black Damnation II: Black Mes and Black Damnation IV: Coffee Club which both have 100 points on ratebeer. Currently I am focusing on homebrewing and have about four batches going at any given time.
Marc and I have had a nice exchange of emails so I wanted to provide some highlights so that everyone can learn from the discussion.
--> For bourbon barrel porters, yes they do exist. But barrel aging, especially bourbon barrel aging, a low gravity beer like porter is risky because the low body on the base beer will barely hold up to the intense bourbon character. It is much more likely to see in today's craft beer bourbon barrel IMPERIAL porters, imperial stouts, and barleywines. These are the highest gravity beers that can handle the added heat and warming alcohol from the barrel. Adding bourbon character to a 4-6% abv porter would be a watery mess.
-->Oats are an additive brewers use that fall under the category of unfermentables. These add body to the beer, which is a way of saying they add sugar and not alcohol. Oats are usually added to the malt bill as a way of giving more sugar content and body but not producing a sticky sweetness and cloying effect that some unfermentables produce such as caramel/crystal malt (a favorite of modern brewers). Oats particularly are used for mouthfeel. They create a silky, velvet texture to the beer. They can be up to 30% of the grain bill in some cases.
-->Oysters can be used in the making of beer as can just about any other possible ingredient you can imagine (Bold City has tried using coffee creamer and Peeps marshmallow snacks). But they are not added to primary fermentation. They would be added in the boil to add ocean and salt character or they could feasibly be added to the barrel AFTER the beer has attenuated and has no more sugar that could be fermented by wild sea bacteria to produce nasty off-flavors. So yes it is possible to make an oyster stout with oysters, but it is not fermented with oysters if that makes sense.
For general questions on beer, you can email me at geeeter@gmail.com but you are also welcome to post on the ratebeer forums if you want a bunch of opinions and not just my own. I am 100% positive there are other beerophiles that will disagree with some of my logic.
Cheers!
QuoteHi all, I am a beer nerd, beer reviewer, homebrewer, and ex-commercial brewer born and raised in Jax. I review primarily on ratebeer under the same handle with now almost 2,100 reviews. I have brewed commercially at the #1 brewery in the world as rated in 2008: De Struise Brouwers in Oostvleteren Belgium. I've brewed batches of Roste Jeanne, Struise Rosse as well as Black Damnation II: Black Mes and Black Damnation IV: Coffee Club which both have 100 points on ratebeer.
This is so freeking awesome! Who knew Jax had so many expert brewers in town... perhaps our fledgling brewery district could squeeze another in? :)
Quote from: Bativac on January 20, 2011, 12:49:53 PM
Guys, I am not a drinker, but have tried to get into beers - a couple friends are beer connoisseurs but they haven't been able to find anything I enjoy drinking. I'm the annoying "it all tastes like beer" guy. (Strangely enough when it comes to coffee, I'm a snob.) Any recommendations that I might like as a novice beer-taster? Something not too "off the wall?"
I think I'd prefer something designed for drinking at room-temperature versus something cold...
I have found that the things beer newbies tend to hate are "dark", hoppy, and sour beers. I will assume by dark that they mean heavy, bitter, and roasty.
I usually recommend something incredibly tame but with flavor not seen in macro pale lager: Hoegaarden (a light but true to style Belgian white beer) or Franziskaner or Weihenstephaner Hefeweizen (true to style German wheat beer with banana and clove character from the yeast). These tend to get good responses. The next tier of easy to love beer with none of the aforementioned characters would be saisons such as Saison Dupont (you can buy it at Grassroots). Saisons are dry, fruity bitter, and light when true to style.
Stay away from India Pale Ales (IPAs), stouts, porters, barrel-aged __blank__, sours, lambics if you are just starting and gradually work your way up to the top (Imperial Stouts and true lambic).
Quote from: Gonzo on January 20, 2011, 10:28:23 AM
Technically, yes. However, historically Guiness has been known as a double or Extra stout. As the years have passed Guiness has mellowed a bit. Also, the Guiness we get here in the states is not the same as what is served in England. Recently Guiness Foriegn Extra Stout has become available here with 7% ABV, which is closeer to the true double Guiness used to be.
Guinness in the US is the same as it is in Ireland and the UK. I've had about 100 pints of it ;)
There are three main types of Guinness but I'm sure they've made 25 or more varieties at some point:
1) Guinness that you all know served on nitro and on tap only, however now it comes in cans and bottles with a nitro widget that mimics it being on nitro. This is the Irish Dry Stout with a low abv that can actually be chugged without dying (see Irish car bomb)
2) Guinness Extra Stout, which is a higher abv Guinness and more like a true porter with natural carbonation. A little harsher and found in bottles almost anywhere.
3) Guinness Foreign Extra which is a foreign stout brewed for export to Africa and the Caribbean mainly. It was never available outside foreign countries until recently. You could try it on tap at Guinness but could not buy bottles to go. Now I think it is fairly easy to find though I cannot comment on whether it tastes like the ones in Africa that I have had plenty of. I would say that the Foreign Extra is the best by far but is certainly not a good pub drink like normal Guinness nitro.
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 01:49:35 PM
Hoegaarden (a light but true to style Belgian white beer) or Franziskaner or Weihenstephaner Hefeweizen (true to style German wheat beer with banana and clove character from the yeast). ).
I would have suggested the same beers. Might want to throw in Tucher, too.
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 02:14:35 PM
1) Guinness that you all know served on nitro and on tap only, however now it comes in cans and bottles with a nitro widget that mimics it being on nitro. This is the Irish Dry Stout with a low abv that can actually be chugged without dying (see Irish car bomb)
Actually, the 'proper' ;) way to drink a guinness: 1.)Make a toast, 2.) Raise glass overhead, 3.)Quaff back with high elbow (forearm should be parallel to floor) until finished, 4.)Wipe off mustache, 5.)Repeat until sufficiently toasty. ;D
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 02:14:35 PM
Guinness in the US is the same as it is in Ireland and the UK. I've had about 100 pints of it ;)
I disagree, while the recipe may be the same it is not the same beer. Thre are subtle differences.
Quote from: Gonzo on January 20, 2011, 02:36:08 PM
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 02:14:35 PM
Guinness in the US is the same as it is in Ireland and the UK. I've had about 100 pints of it ;)
I disagree, while the recipe may be the same it is not the same beer. Thre are subtle differences.
They may taste different to you but there is no such thing as the US-export version of Guinness that is made differently from Guinness shipped around the EU.
If the recipe is the same, how can it not be the same beer? ???
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 02:41:21 PM
They may taste different to you but there is no such thing as the US-export version of Guinness that is made differently from Guinness shipped around the EU.
If the recipe is the same, how can it not be the same beer? ???
The Guinness we drink in the U.S. is actually brewed in Canada. Different water, different taste. Thus, the Guinness we drink here is not the Guinness one would drink in Ireland.
I'm with you Gonzo... I HATE canadian water... :)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 20, 2011, 03:00:49 PM
I'm with you Gonzo... I HATE canadian water... :)
aka Labatts Blue
Thanks for the suggestions!
This might be a stupid question - but "Hoegaarden, Franziskaner or Weihenstephaner Hefeweizen" are all TYPES of beer, right? So is there a specific brand or brewery I should be looking for?
I'm around the corner from European Street. Do they carry this stuff?
Nope, they're all brands of beer, and yes, E-street has them. They're a little citrusy for my liking, esp. the hoegarden, but I hope you enjoy.
Franziskaner and Hoegaarden are specific beers. Franziskaner is made by the Spaten-Franziskaner brewery in Munich and Hoegaarden is made by the Hoegaarden Brewery in Belgium. You can go to any place with more than a dozen beers, and they should have one or the other.
You can also order Woodchuck or Strongbow if you're stuck at a place that only serves beer and you don't want something that tastes like beer. They're both ciders, so they taste like apple cider, but are served on tap at most bars with more than 10 taps.
Quote from: Bativac on January 20, 2011, 03:32:44 PM
Thanks for the suggestions!
This might be a stupid question - but "Hoegaarden, Franziskaner or Weihenstephaner Hefeweizen" are all TYPES of beer, right? So is there a specific brand or brewery I should be looking for?
I'm around the corner from European Street. Do they carry this stuff?
The type of beer is Belgian wheat beer or witbier for the former and German yeast-laden wheat beer or hefeweizen for the latter two. These are considered bars for the style.
If you are just getting into craft beer, you should be aware that these need to be poured into proper glassware. Hefeweizen particularly uses a specific glass called a weizen glass that is tall, slender, and bulges at the top. This allows the head to form and expound aroma, which is the major character that dominates the hefeweizen style. Most other beer you can get away with drinking it out of a pint glass, but every style has a specific glassware to match the beer profile.
If you have specific flavors you like or dislike, I can recommend more options. But start with those and see what you think.
Quote from: Gonzo on January 20, 2011, 02:56:26 PM
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 02:41:21 PM
They may taste different to you but there is no such thing as the US-export version of Guinness that is made differently from Guinness shipped around the EU.
If the recipe is the same, how can it not be the same beer? ???
The Guinness we drink in the U.S. is actually brewed in Canada. Different water, different taste. Thus, the Guinness we drink here is not the Guinness one would drink in Ireland.
Mmm it would depend on the bar's distributor as I doubt all Guinness in the US is from Canada. Some is probably brewed in the US for all I know!
You are correct, different brewing waters will change the beer slightly, but you would have to have one hell of a palate to distinguish the two. I highly doubt you or anyone could pick out which one was the Canadian brewed one in a blind taste.
But by your logic there are 100 types of Budweiser since it is brewed in 100 different locations worldwide with different water tables.
Also remember that big breweries with big reputations and little room for variance will probably filter and add minerals to their water to create the desired taste and create a global, homogeneous product. Not to mention, the proprietary yeast for Guinness probably likes a specific mineral composition that the brewers have nailed down over the past 150 years. I highly doubt that the contract brewers for Guinness all over the place are allowed to just use their local tap water even if it has 10x the amount of chlorine and would potentially be toxic to the yeast!
So yes water makes a difference, but not so much in mass produced beer.
Bativac, some of those wheat beers have sediment that is natural. There are also many of these that are not fruity or sweet...just plain satisfying.
Bold City or other places will give you sampler shots if you explain your situation and Interest in finding a beer you like.
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 04:32:20 PM
Mmm it would depend on the bar's distributor as I doubt all Guinness in the US is from Canada. Some is probably brewed in the US for all I know!
But by your logic there are 100 types of Budweiser since it is brewed in 100 different locations worldwide with different water tables.
So yes water makes a difference, but not so much in mass produced beer.
Case in point, I grew up in St. Louis, in the shadow of the big boy on the block. When I moved here to Florida -- before I discoverd craft beers -- I noticed a HUGE difference in the Busch beer brewed here and the Busch brewed in St. Louis. The Busch here was harsher, more biter, and less sweet than the same ber in St. Louis. Turns out that AB knew that this was an issue and tried trucking in water, building a pipeline, and a number of other solutions. None worked.
Your contention that Guinness brewed in Canada is the same as that brewed in Ireland is preposterous. There are a number of websites that docment people saying just waht I have said; Guinness from Ireland and Guinness from anywhere else is NOT the same.
Not to mention that Guinness brewed for sale in the United States is Pasturized! That changes the flavor, too...
hello,
If anyone knows where you can find Three Floyds Dark Lord Russion Imperial please let me know.
Thanks
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 20, 2011, 10:30:54 PM
If anyone knows where you can find Three Floyds Dark Lord Russion Imperial please let me know.
Have you tried Total Wine in the St. John's Town Center? They have one of the largest selections of beer in the city.
Thanks for the pointers, guys. I am heading out tomorrow to track down a couple of these beers and will report back with my thoughts.
I managed to get into the world of cheese and the land of coffee. I would hate to be missing something magical in the realm of beer...!
Gonzo I have and thank you, but they do not have that one. It is really a tough one to find because it is really limited, but I heard it is the best. I wasn't sure by some small chance someone might have it as well. ....also for all Imperial or Stout fan check out Lion Stout!
QuoteYour contention that Guinness brewed in Canada is the same as that brewed in Ireland is preposterous. There are a number of websites that docment people saying just waht I have said; Guinness from Ireland and Guinness from anywhere else is NOT the same.
Most people use beer to solve problems, you're using it to start problems. Nice
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 21, 2011, 11:15:06 AM
QuoteYour contention that Guinness brewed in Canada is the same as that brewed in Ireland is preposterous. There are a number of websites that docment people saying just waht I have said; Guinness from Ireland and Guinness from anywhere else is NOT the same.
Most people use beer to solve problems, you're using it to start problems. Nice
Sorry Captain, but that is most certainly not the intent. The intent of the column is to educate people about beer in an entertaining way. The comments made about Guinness being the same here or in Ireland were wrong and I was merely pointing that out. Much like Tarheel pointed out his take on the article.
Now, can we get back to talking about beer and not make a big deal out of this? I sure would appreciate it.
I'll be at kickbacks tonight... lets get together and have a full on beer-off. Who's down???????
Hmmm... Will have to see what is on the calendar... But, that is a definite possibility!
BTW Kickbacks is having two beer dinners coming up in the next couple of months... one of which is Cigar City (YUM!!!!!!!!!!!!) and supposedly they will be doing a special bourbon barrel Cigar City beer for the event.
Beer Off 2011, tonight, whats up?!?!?!
Yeah, I talked to Steve last week about that. There's even the possibility of a rather big player doing a dinner soon. Fingers crossed!
Quote from: Gonzo on January 21, 2011, 07:10:00 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 20, 2011, 10:30:54 PM
If anyone knows where you can find Three Floyds Dark Lord Russion Imperial please let me know.
Have you tried Total Wine in the St. John's Town Center? They have one of the largest selections of beer in the city.
LOL sorry.....Dark Lord i s only for sale at FFF on April 24th each year on Dark Lord day. There's not much of a limit of how much you can purchase so many of them go up on eBay or traded on ratebeer or BeerAdvocate. Since, no offense, I doubt you have any beers that people would give up a DL for, your best bet is eBay. If you've never had it before, just buy a 2009 or 2010 version (white or green wax respectively). They will be about $50-$70 per 22oz.
What is a Beer Off? Depending on what it is, I might be interested.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 21, 2011, 11:15:06 AM
QuoteYour contention that Guinness brewed in Canada is the same as that brewed in Ireland is preposterous. There are a number of websites that docment people saying just waht I have said; Guinness from Ireland and Guinness from anywhere else is NOT the same.
Most people use beer to solve problems, you're using it to start problems. Nice
Who cares- we are debating, which is nice. Gonzo- I am going to just say here that you are flat out wrong. There is no way there is a special "pasteurized" Guinness for the US/Canada while the beer for the EU is not. If you can show me real articles, I will listen. But just because you read things on the internet doesn't mean they are true. Your logic that they taste different is sound, but that doesn't mean whatsoever that the recipe is different or that one is super heated and one is not. All Guinness draught is pasteurized. Guinness at St James Gate is a very much operational brewery that has a massive barrel output and exports all over the world. I don't know for a fact if Guinness in the US is brewed in Canada, but assumed you were correct. But I am having a hard time finding this from a respected source.
From the Guinness website under FAQs:
Q: Is it true that you get a much better pint of GUINNESS® stout in Ireland?
A: GUINNESS® is GUINNESS® - wherever you are. We always use pure, fresh water from natural local sources for the GUINNESS® stout brewed outside Ireland. That said, in blind tests (with a bunch of highly cynical journalists) none of our sample could tell the difference between Irish-brewed GUINNESS® and the locally produced variety. All the GUINNESS® sold in the UK, Ireland and North America is brewed in Ireland at the historic St. James's Gate Brewery in Dublin.
Quote from: stephendare on January 21, 2011, 04:22:53 PM
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 21, 2011, 04:14:57 PM
Quote from: Gonzo on January 21, 2011, 07:10:00 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 20, 2011, 10:30:54 PM
If anyone knows where you can find Three Floyds Dark Lord Russion Imperial please let me know.
Have you tried Total Wine in the St. John's Town Center? They have one of the largest selections of beer in the city.
LOL sorry.....Dark Lord i s only for sale at FFF on April 24th each year on Dark Lord day. There's not much of a limit of how much you can purchase so many of them go up on eBay or traded on ratebeer or BeerAdvocate. Since, no offense, I doubt you have any beers that people would give up a DL for, your best bet is eBay. If you've never had it before, just buy a 2009 or 2010 version (white or green wax respectively). They will be about $50-$70 per 22oz.
seriously? why? Whats the deal with Dark Lord? And what on earth is FFF?
FFF is shorthand for Three Floyds Brewery in Munster, Indiana outside Chicago. Why? Because tons of breweries do at-the-brewery-only releases. One of the reasons is because dickheads would just buy an entire bottle shop out of their stock and hoard it for themselves. No one would get to try it. Brewery only releases with a bottle limit is the only way for rare, sought after beers to be fairly distributed to as many hardcore beer geeks as possible. Now some people show up to these releases to re-sell on eBay and make big money. I hate these people and think they should die, but that's just my opinion. Hey, it helps people who don't want to experience Dark Lord day and meet awesome people try the beer at an obscenely marked up price.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 21, 2011, 04:23:59 PM
What is a Beer Off? Depending on what it is, I might be interested.
Ummm, pretty much an excuse to drink beer at Kickbacks?
Enjoying beer and talking are required. Yelling and arguing is optional.
Oh and just my 2 cents, Dark Lord is not worth $60 a bomber. Goose Island Bourbon County Stout is much better. And cheaper and easier to find.
Dark Lord is hyped because it is rated highly on ratebeer and BeerAdvocate. But I will say as reviewer with 144 imperial stout reviews that Dark Lord is seriously sweet, under-attenuated, and many top raters would consider it pretty crap.
There are way better imperial stouts. I even rated Hoppin Frog BORIS the Crusher higher than DL and that is like $8 and easy to find.
Just so you know, the beer world is massive, extremely active, and very hardcore. There are brewery "wars", big groups of raters that vehemently oppose certain breweries, and so much more. There are groups that will pool resources and trade for bottles worth over $1000.
One hot topic now is that over hyped, rare beers are given extra bonus points simply because they are rare and hyped. People will say, can you taste the "rare" in the beer as a joke. I would agree. If Dark Lord was available on shelves all over the world, it would not be the #2 or whatever rated imperial stout in the world.
QuoteOne of the reasons is because dickheads would just buy an entire bottle shop out of their stock and hoard it for themselves.
I know a certain UNC grad who has done this at Grassroots a number of times when they get Cigar City beers. Not cool. Not Cool at all.
Quote from: stephendare on January 21, 2011, 01:06:59 PM
Im glad that this discussion is happening actually, its amazing. And those of us who are beer novices are learning a lot about the subject just by listening to the debate.
I bet this is one of the most informative discussions about beer thats every happened online in jacksonville, in fact---which is why we asked Marc to do the column. Its creating a real live conversation about handcrafted beer and shows that there is a great difference of opinions and information.
This is just amazing guys, keep it up, and thanks for the enlightening posts!
Man I have been homebrewing for years and although beer is not my field it is a big part of my life...oh man that sounds bad. But I really feel that beer, craft brew, home brewing, etc is something that can bring people together.
yeah and so many times you search out that one sought after beer for nothing. Just rare and not worth the toss. Thanks for the advise, but I sure can wait on this one. Sometimes the best beers are right in front of us all along.
any idea what the plans are for the old Jax Brewing building?
someone bought it last year?
See this thread:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,767.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,767.0.html)
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 01:49:35 PM
I have found that the things beer newbies tend to hate are "dark", hoppy, and sour beers. I will assume by dark that they mean heavy, bitter, and roasty.
Wouldn't that simply mean beers that are dark in color?
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 01:49:35 PM
From the Guinness website under FAQs:
Q: Is it true that you get a much better pint of GUINNESS® stout in Ireland?
A: GUINNESS® is GUINNESS® - wherever you are. We always use pure, fresh water from natural local sources for the GUINNESS® stout brewed outside Ireland. That said, in blind tests (with a bunch of highly cynical journalists) none of our sample could tell the difference between Irish-brewed GUINNESS® and the locally produced variety. All the GUINNESS® sold in the UK, Ireland and North America is brewed in Ireland at the historic St. James's Gate Brewery in Dublin.
Well... of course Guinness is going to say that. Who would ever admit, "Our beer is better here and worse there"?
That said, could that theory have to do with how much time has passed from the moment it's brewed and bottled to the point of consumption? Like it's simply not as fresh in the time it takes to be shipped from where ever in Canada to many bars in the U.S.? I only wonder because I have a friend who's dad worked for Budweiser and he would tell me about having beer there that was brewed same day. He said it was so much better that it was nothing like the Budweiser in stores or at bars. I can't vouch personally because I've never had this nor do I drink much Bud.
Quote from: Bewler on January 25, 2011, 06:31:17 PM
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 01:49:35 PM
I have found that the things beer newbies tend to hate are "dark", hoppy, and sour beers. I will assume by dark that they mean heavy, bitter, and roasty.
Wouldn't that simply mean beers that are dark in color?
So people who tell me they dislike "dark" beer dislike it because of the way it looks? ???
Quote from: Bewler on January 25, 2011, 06:31:17 PM
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 20, 2011, 01:49:35 PM
From the Guinness website under FAQs:
Q: Is it true that you get a much better pint of GUINNESS® stout in Ireland?
A: GUINNESS® is GUINNESS® - wherever you are. We always use pure, fresh water from natural local sources for the GUINNESS® stout brewed outside Ireland. That said, in blind tests (with a bunch of highly cynical journalists) none of our sample could tell the difference between Irish-brewed GUINNESS® and the locally produced variety. All the GUINNESS® sold in the UK, Ireland and North America is brewed in Ireland at the historic St. James's Gate Brewery in Dublin.
Well... of course Guinness is going to say that. Who would ever admit, "Our beer is better here and worse there"?
That said, could that theory have to do with how much time has passed from the moment it's brewed and bottled to the point of consumption? Like it's simply not as fresh in the time it takes to be shipped from where ever in Canada to many bars in the U.S.? I only wonder because I have a friend who's dad worked for Budweiser and he would tell me about having beer there that was brewed same day. He said it was so much better that it was nothing like the Budweiser in stores or at bars. I can't vouch personally because I've never had this nor do I drink much Bud.
The point is not that our beer is better here and worse there. There is nothing they have to admit to. THEY ARE THE SAME!!! I MEAN HOLY GOD PEOPLE!!! If you can find a contractor brewer for Guinness Draught in North America then I will shut up.
Guinness (I think now part of Diego- a big alcohol conglomerate), who files taxes in probably 50-100 countries, you are assuming has secret contract breweries around Canada that they are not disclosing? WHAT!!??
They truth is that that person had Guinness that had zero travel miles on it, was never heated and bounced around in a supertanker, and had it IN IRELAND, which would add to the overall psychological experience.
These are how rumors get started. Gonzo or whoever has an idea in their head that, "Hey, this is so much better. Probably because the US version is not brewed the same way and is made somewhere else like Canada."
Yes, it will be fresher; but that has almost nothing to do with pasteurized beer. They are pasteurized so that they can ALWAYS TASTE FRESH. There is no way for super heated beer to spoil because all living matter inside the keg and bottles is now dead.
If someone pours you three pints of Budweiser: One is "fresh" Budweiser overnighted from St. Louis, the other is two years old from Jacksonville, FL (we have a Budweiser contract brewer here), and the third is a double up of either the former or latter, you will not be able to pick out which one is which. No way. They employ expert tasters (super-tasters) to MAKE SURE THEY ALWAYS TASTE THE SAME no matter where they are brewed. Macro lagers like Budweiser are pasteurized and laden with preservatives so that they will not change over time. The only thing that could possible mess up a bottle of chemical laden pale lager is massive exposure to UV light and multiple big fluctuations in storing temperature. The two things above happen all the time because bars, stores, distributors do not understand the mechanics of beer. These are the doings of third parties and not the producer.
So YES, Guinness, Budweiser, __fill in easy to find beer___ can possibly taste different from place A to place B because of storing and how they are handled, but they are not different recipes. That is flawed logic.
There is one more explanation that really doesn't apply to macro crap beer. The minute a true beer is bottled, it is NOT ready for consumption. Real beer that is refermented in the bottle has a period called bottle conditioning where the beer undergoes a miniature tertiary fermentation that continues to clarify the beer, eat up the last remaining off flavors, and produce true carbonation (Budweiser et al are forced carbonated like soda). If the beer is not pasteurized, it is possible that fresh bottles taste great, but older bottles develop off character.
I will give you a great example: Bold City. Bold City is a fun place to go drink and eat and have fun. But their beer is not good. Why? Because the day or week it is brewed, it tastes pretty good. But when they bottle their beer, no one has bothered to see how that beer ages. The fact is that Bold City has major league sanitation issues so that almost every bottled beer from them after 2 months of age (I have some here with a year of age on them to show people as an example) is totally infected by wild organisms. So they are completely disgusting. Why does no one know this? Because most people who drink beer cannot identify brewing flaws. And even then, you would need to compare fresh Duke's Brown to bottled Duke's Brown to really find that off-character. If you have only tried an infected bottle, then you would assume that is what it is supposed to taste like; decide you don't like it; and then never buy it again. They don't post this on internet boards because they see no reason to. So no one in the beer community knows that Bold City bottled beers are almost always infected after a few months. I even have a bottle of Abby's Ale that is so wildy sour from a lactic infection that is actually good!
While we're on the subject, I highly implore you to email the pastry chef at Orsay to make his 'Car Bomb' trio of ice creams: a Guiness, a Jameson's and a Bailey's flavored ice cream. Eat the Guiness version while you wait for them to pour one (I think they only have Rasputin at the moment) when the stout arrives, drop your other two scoops in for a float. I can only implore you to not knock it until you've tried it (over and over and over) they're absolutely fantastic.
And yes, I was a few pints under before I decided to mix the ice cream with the Guiness, and totally glad that I did.
Whew, sounds like someone could use a beer.
I’m “assuming Guinness has secret contract breweries around Canada that they are not disclosing?â€
When did I ever say that? What are you even talking about?
Also, I was proposing a thought. Not stating a fact.
Third, Bold City beer is not good huh? Hmmmm, I always thought personal taste was subjective.
A friend forwarded this link to me yesterday. The story seems to claim that Guinness is not only brewed outside of Ireland, it also talks about an intrepid group of researchers who documented the fact that the beloved stout DOES taste different outside of Ireland.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/16/6283655-how-to-build-a-better-irish-beer
Furthermore, they published their findings in the March 2011 issue of The Journal of Food Science. Here is the article abstract:
This study aimed to test the much-pronounced but poorly supported theory that “Guinness does not travel well.†A total of 4 researchers from 4 different countries of origin traveled around the world for 12 mo to collect data on the enjoyment of Guinness and related factors. The main outcome was measured on a Visual Analogue Scale (VAS) from 0 (enjoyed it not at all) to 100 (enjoyed it very much). A total of 103 tastings were recorded (42 in Ireland, 61 elsewhere) in 71 different pubs spread over 33 cities and 14 countries. The enjoyment of Guinness consumed in Ireland was rated higher (74 mm VAS) than outside Ireland (57 mm; P < 0.001). This difference remained statistically significant after adjusting for researcher, pub ambience, Guinness appearance, and the sensory measures mouthfeel, flavor, and aftertaste. This study is the first to provide scientific evidence that Guinness does not travel well and that the enjoyment of Guinness (for our group of nonexpert tasters) was higher when in Ireland. Results, however, are subject to further verification because of limitations in the study design.
Gonzo
Quote from: tarheels86 on January 27, 2011, 10:07:50 PMI will give you a great example: Bold City. Bold City is a fun place to go drink and eat and have fun. But their beer is not good. Why? Because the day or week it is brewed, it tastes pretty good. But when they bottle their beer, no one has bothered to see how that beer ages. The fact is that Bold City has major league sanitation issues so that almost every bottled beer from them after 2 months of age (I have some here with a year of age on them to show people as an example) is totally infected by wild organisms. So they are completely disgusting. Why does no one know this? Because most people who drink beer cannot identify brewing flaws. And even then, you would need to compare fresh Duke's Brown to bottled Duke's Brown to really find that off-character. If you have only tried an infected bottle, then you would assume that is what it is supposed to taste like; decide you don't like it; and then never buy it again. They don't post this on internet boards because they see no reason to. So no one in the beer community knows that Bold City bottled beers are almost always infected after a few months.
Resurrecting an old thread to ask a question. I've recently gotten into beer drinking and find that I really enjoy Bold City's Duke's Brown. So I searched the forum and found the above post. Am I drinking terrible, unclean beer under the assumption that it tastes pretty good? Is it dangerously "infected by wild organisms" to the point that I shouldn't be drinking it? Is my palate that ill-informed??
Also I enjoy some Hefeweizens - really, I like beers with a strong flavor but little or no bitterness. If that makes me a "beer wuss" then so be it. Can't stand the Budweisers etc. Any other recommendations would be fantastic.
^No. That's really only going to be an issue with their bottled beer, particularly if it's been sitting around a while. If you drink it on tap and fresh there should be no problem.
The key is if you find you like something, drink up, and experiment to find more things you like. That's what makes it fun. If you like things with some flavor that aren't too bitter, you might try Intuition's King Street Stout. It's pretty awesome.
QuoteResurrecting an old thread to ask a question. I've recently gotten into beer drinking and find that I really enjoy Bold City's Duke's Brown. So I searched the forum and found the above post. Am I drinking terrible, unclean beer under the assumption that it tastes pretty good? Is it dangerously "infected by wild organisms" to the point that I shouldn't be drinking it? Is my palate that ill-informed??
First off, Bold City does not have 'major league sanitation issues'. I come from a family of brewers (Budweiser) and several ex-employees of AB's plant in Jacksonville work at BC. I have seen Bold City's operation inside and out and I can tell you, this is just a completely innacurate statement. Believe me, my uncle (who once told the guy at Shipyards brewing while on a tour that his beer tasted like piss and pointed out 8 things in the brewery that were wrong- a quite enjoyable day mind you) would not drink there if this were the case.
Secondly, beer is a food product... it does not age well when bottled. That's true for any beer. If I had a bottle of Heinekin that sat in my kitchen for six months and I drank it... it would taste skunky. That's no different then eating a box of Cheerios that has been sitting in my kitchen for four months.
@fieldafm, I would say MOST beer tastes better when it's fresh. But there is a huge amount of beer that tastes better when it isn't. In much the same way that certain cheeses flavors develop with time, many beers behave the same way. Some taste better after 1, 3, 5, or even 10-50 years.
Quote from: Kickbackssteve on April 17, 2012, 05:32:02 PM
@fieldafm, I would say MOST beer tastes better when it's fresh. But there is a huge amount of beer that tastes better when it isn't. In much the same way that certain cheeses flavors develop with time, many beers behave the same way. Some taste better after 1, 3, 5, or even 10-50 years.
I've got a bottle of whiskey barrel aged Old Rasputin Anniversary Ale that I have been keeping safely locked away for over 2 years. I want to open it but I haven't found a special enough occasion just yet.
Bativac- Try the Cigar City Maduro Brown Ale. It has a very smooth taste and is not bitter, but it's still a dark beer. However, if it's the frou frou stuff you're into, I like Ephemere by Unibroue
^I once did the same with a chocolate Yeti. Good decision. I agree wholeheartedly with the Maduro toward Bativac's edification.
Thanks guys, I'll definitely give the Maduro a taste and the King Street Stout. I like to try a couple different new beers a week, though most of the time they're bottled since I don't have the time to get out and drink it on tap someplace (though Duke's Brown is excellent on tap).
I tend to buy the stuff from either Total Wine or Grassroots. Am I getting fresh stuff? Is either place known for letting bottled beer sit around for months? I don't know that I'd be able to tell the difference between "skunked beer" vs "beer I just don't like."
If you buy at Grassroots it's fresh, period. Jimmy and Jack know what they're doing. They get the Tacachale Seal of Approval, and not just because they're old friends. Overall, don't worry too much about the beer turning if your buying American craft beer. It'll rarely have a chance to sit around long enough before it goes down the gullet of a wise consumer.
Quote@fieldafm, I would say MOST beer tastes better when it's fresh. But there is a huge amount of beer that tastes better when it isn't. In much the same way that certain cheeses flavors develop with time, many beers behave the same way. Some taste better after 1, 3, 5, or even 10-50 years.
There are exceptions to the rule, but I'd be pretty confident saying 85% of beers behave the way I described.
BTW, haven't seen you the last few times I've been up there but I love the new app!!
QuoteCigar City Maduro Brown Ale
+1,000,000
BTW, there is a new craft beer store opening on King Street. Talked to the guy the other day.
".....new craft beer store opening on King Street...." Please, do tell
Thanks