Metro Jacksonville

How To Spot The Next Hot Neighborhood

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/832381551_wphD3-M.jpg)

When examining housing data, two key components to look for include home prices and sales volume. However, here are five additional tips worth considering to find the next real-estate hot spot.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-how-to-spot-the-next-hot-neighborhood

Thats why Hogans Creek is a GOLD MINE. Who wants to experience it? We won't talk about it. We'll make it happen. One of the biggest issues in the spring elections. 904-434-0839-Noone

My uncle has always lived in "hip" niehgborhoods.  He told me this is how he's generally seen them transform, ghetto->artists->gay->yuppies->families.  Each group seems to pave the way for the next and of course there is a lot of overlapping. Seems to be about right too.

And why does Hogan's creek come up in every thread nowadays?  Sorry to burst your bubble but it really isn't anywhere near the biggest issue in the mayor election.

Hey you know I agree with the story! Riverside has been a hot area for a minute and Springfield is arriving there but in a wierder way since its boom was bubble related. I cant think of any areas that could even be considered! Riverside has lots of artists gay yuppies and families and just a little ghetto. Springfield looks like it has a bunch of artists gays families but also still some ghetto. But hey thats I like those places the diversity!

Quote from: acme54321 on January 19, 2011, 06:50:22 AM

And why does Hogan's creek come up in every thread nowadays?  Sorry to burst your bubble but it really isn't anywhere near the biggest issue in the mayor election.

Tell me the mayoral candidate that doesn't think that access to the River is an issue because I'm not voting for them.

We are either going to promote our River or we aren't. We are a joke outside of Duval county. Two years ago. Two years ago I went to a meeting of FIND and the commissioners were awesome. Basically the question was if money was raised for a pocket pier floating dock at a waterfront public access street end would the members of FIND match the other 1/2 of the construction cost. The answer is YES. You need a sponsor. A city councilmember. It hasn't happened. Its not happening in Dist.4

Pieces of legislation are making its way through city council that the new Mayor and city council members will have their hands tied and the people of Jacksonville will have been ripped off again. 2010-856. 2010-675.

Our new slogan will be

Lets get to work. -Just not in Jacksonville.

Quote4. Ride The Rail

Once auto-centric Dallas is another example of how real-estate opportunities perk up alongside rail-based mass transit corridors.  Since launching its light rail system in 1996, Dallas has witnessed billions in transit-oriented development sprout up around its system.  With more rail lines planned for Dallas, Seattle, Charlotte and other cities, is the next hot neighborhood a future train stop around the corner from you?

No, because rail is never coming to Jax.  I'd love to know when metrojax started talking about rail.  Well, it would actually be the site we were all on before we came to metrojax.  Was that '05? Earlier?

I'm starting to lose faith in rail and Jax.  The next mayor needs to get our city on the right track and our citizens need to pull their heads out of the sand.  Jax's government and citizens are still living in 1997, the rest of the world is not.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 19, 2011, 09:00:24 AM

No, because rail is never coming to Jax.  I'd love to know when metrojax started talking about rail.  Well, it would actually be the site we were all on before we came to metrojax.  Was that '05? Earlier?

I'm starting to lose faith in rail and Jax.  The next mayor needs to get our city on the right track and our citizens need to pull their heads out of the sand.  Jax's government and citizens are still living in 1997, the rest of the world is not.

Don't lose faith yet, Captain.  The groundswell is coming.  Did you read John Mica's comments in the T-U this morning?  A direct reference to the Skyway and how we can make it useful by connecting commuter rail.  We are very close to critical mass.  Yes, there is always going to be opposition.  But at some point, there is no longer a market for what those people are selling and their influence begins to dry up.  Generation 'Y' will be the largest consumer in the years to come.  Corporations and politicians will figure this out quickly.  The smart ones already have.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 19, 2011, 09:00:24 AM

Quote4. Ride The Rail

Once auto-centric Dallas is another example of how real-estate opportunities perk up alongside rail-based mass transit corridors.  Since launching its light rail system in 1996, Dallas has witnessed billions in transit-oriented development sprout up around its system.  With more rail lines planned for Dallas, Seattle, Charlotte and other cities, is the next hot neighborhood a future train stop around the corner from you?

No, because rail is never coming to Jax.  I'd love to know when metrojax started talking about rail.  Well, it would actually be the site we were all on before we came to metrojax.  Was that '05? Earlier?

I'm starting to lose faith in rail and Jax.  The next mayor needs to get our city on the right track and our citizens need to pull their heads out of the sand.  Jax's government and citizens are still living in 1997, the rest of the world is not.

+1 Gen Y will be in retirement homes down in Boca before the first commuter station is up & running.

If the city were to do a better job attracting and promoting business to downtown it would be a good start.  Those intown, hip neighborhoods need incentives in the beginning and support to get them on a solid footing.  It would be cheaper in the long run to promote intown living than to continue to build super highways to get to more suburban sprawl.
That being said, Avondale, Riverside, and Springfield are quietly doing their own thing and attracting people who choose to live and work there in growing numbers.  Yay!

And why does Hogan's creek come up in every thread nowadays?
[/quote]

Why not?

Because it must.

Everything must change.Our communities are a sum of their parts.We have profoundly rare and potentially valuable parts that have been submerged within the past image of ourselves during an age of overall decline.In a positive new practice of refusal we will see the likes of Hogan's Creek awareness emerge.We simply refuse to go about the routine course.

It is really pretty simple.We can never do just one thing.Hogan's Creek above all can be simply viewed as a test.
Raise the bar.Uplift Hogan's Creek and the entire community benefits.Restorative Justice.

Even Avondale has some work to do in this department-the southwesterly boundary of RAP is defined by Fishweir Creek- an embarrassing poster child screaming for restoration.

Avondale, Riverside, and Springfield will never become "hip" neighborhoods like those found in other cities until the historic preservation groups RAP and SPAR realize that it's ok to mix new lofts and new higher density buildings in with the old.  The Shoppes of Avondale could be so much better with more activity if it were expanded and "densified", but that would mean that a few houses would have to go and gasp, perhaps a parking garage put in.  5 Points the same.  Springfield is so unique and cool, but I tire very quickly of the same old architecture (new...SRG, and old) on every lot.  I would love to see some more cement, glass, brick, etc.

Atlanta has just as many old, historic neighborhoods as Springfield, Riverside, and Avondale (actually probably more), but when you go to them you can see shotgun houses next to brand new 4-5 story apartments/lofts with ground level retail.  These would never be allowed by SPAR or RAP, and if they were, they would probaby have to "look" like one of the old 1920s or before houses instead of adding a new, modern mix.

After the recent threads/developments posted unfolding in San Marco, that will easily become the first hip, dense, mixed use neighborhood in Jacksonville simply because that's what they want and they don't have to cowtow to San Marco Preservation.

Jax Beach could be hip if that lady from Hunstville ever decided to leave and they raised the height limit from 35 ft.  The only problem there is that every building looks absurdly ugly (faux brown stucco) and they do not address the street.  That will also have to be changed with a design review board.

We want hip, but we have people and organizations in our city that literally prevent hip from happening, and then we wonder why every Gen Yer moves to Gate Parkway where places like Tapestry Park are going up IN SUBURBIA.

Also, I hate to say it, but there really is no reason for rail in Jax until we do increase our densities.  Having grown up in Ortega/Avondale, maybe I would take a street car from Avondale to Riverside, maybe, but there is never any traffic and I love my car.  All we have are single-family homes in most of our neighborhoods.  The only dense area is near 5 Points, and if you live there you can walk everywhere.

Commuter rail?  I'm worried it will be a huge failure like Nashville's with fewer than a thousand riders a day simply because our traffic is nowhere near bad enough and our density is not there.

If RAP and SPAR are able to press on, expect the only dense, hip places to be San Marco and certain areas of the Southside, which will still be car-centric.  We got a few high rises built downtown, but during the last boom what would have made a larger impact is higher density developments in the surrounding neighborhoods, not unlike Chelsea lofts or 1661 Riverside.  But do they all have to look like they're old when it's so obvious they're not?

Nashville's commuter rail ridership has actually been on the increase breaking over 1,100 last month. 100 away from their goal of 1,200 riders a day. The density argument has been debunked by Charlotte alone! You do not need density of housing units for commuter rail to work, what you do need is a dense employment center.

Circulators like streetcars build density. If you want more density, you put in the type of transportation network that generates it.  A trip to a city like Memphis or Portland proves this.  Instead about worrying about density, more focus should be given to creating seamless front door connectivity between walkable destinations. Do this and you'll find that density in the form of more complementing walkable development will begin to grow around your investment.

Quote from: simms3 on January 19, 2011, 01:00:46 PM
Avondale, Riverside, and Springfield will never become "hip" neighborhoods like those found in other cities until the historic preservation groups RAP and SPAR realize that it's ok to mix new lofts and new higher density buildings in with the old.  The Shoppes of Avondale could be so much better with more activity if it were expanded and "densified", but that would mean that a few houses would have to go and gasp, perhaps a parking garage put in.  5 Points the same.  Springfield is so unique and cool, but I tire very quickly of the same old architecture (new...SRG, and old) on every lot.  I would love to see some more cement, glass, brick, etc.

Atlanta has just as many old, historic neighborhoods as Springfield, Riverside, and Avondale (actually probably more), but when you go to them you can see shotgun houses next to brand new 4-5 story apartments/lofts with ground level retail.  These would never be allowed by SPAR or RAP, and if they were, they would probaby have to "look" like one of the old 1920s or before houses instead of adding a new, modern mix.

After the recent threads/developments posted unfolding in San Marco, that will easily become the first hip, dense, mixed use neighborhood in Jacksonville simply because that's what they want and they don't have to cowtow to San Marco Preservation.

Jax Beach could be hip if that lady from Hunstville ever decided to leave and they raised the height limit from 35 ft.  The only problem there is that every building looks absurdly ugly (faux brown stucco) and they do not address the street.  That will also have to be changed with a design review board.

We want hip, but we have people and organizations in our city that literally prevent hip from happening, and then we wonder why every Gen Yer moves to Gate Parkway where places like Tapestry Park are going up IN SUBURBIA.

Hey you know I read that a modern house going to go up on walnut street in springfield! Thats friggin awesome right?

Quote from: fsujax on January 19, 2011, 01:10:40 PM
Nashville's commuter rail ridership has actually been on the increase breaking over 1,100 last month. 100 away from their goal of 1,200 riders a day. The density argument has been debunked by Charlotte alone! You do not need density of housing units for commuter rail to work, what you do need is a dense employment center.

I have a chart (not on my computer) that gives a general feasibility for all transit systems.  It includes everything from express busses to feeder busses with 10 minute headways to walk up BRT to PandR BRT to LRT to HRT to commuter rail to everything.  Most systems need at least one of two things: residential density for walk up and heavy employment center (like at least Uptown Charlotte's size) for park and ride.  Our density is just not there for even many feeder bus lines to come around every 10 minutes, which is why our busses often come around once an hour or longer.  And our densest, 2nd largest employment center is not quite large enough by 99% of the unofficial standards.  We need at least 15 million SF and ~75,000 workers in one compact area.  The Southside is certainly not that, and our downtown is STRUGGLING to hit even 67% of those numbers.

Perhaps a well implemented park and ride rail system can help bring our numbers for downtown up and spur development there, but it would be a gamble at this point.

Also, 1,100 riders a day up from about 800?  That’s lower than our Skyway!!  Commuter rail is meant for park and ride and is not oten meant to spur dense infill development like LRT, streetcars, and HRT do.  It can be cheap, but not always.  If I were a Jacksonville taxpayer I can easily tell you that even though I am a public transit proponent, I would not support spending any money on commuter rail yet, and no streetcars/LRT until I know that developers will be able to come in and actually build infill without our neighborhood/city political organizations making it too difficult for them.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 19, 2011, 01:44:30 PM
Circulators like streetcars build density. If you want more density, you put in the type of transportation network that generates it.  A trip to a city like Memphis or Portland proves this.  Instead about worrying about density, more focus should be given to creating seamless front door connectivity between walkable destinations. Do this and you'll find that density in the form of more complementing walkable development will begin to grow around your investment.

I agree to almost 100% of your point, but with RAP and SPAR how the hell are we going to build density when we had quite a time just approving a contemporary single family home in Springfield...a neighborhood with SOOOO many empty lots just waiting for anything?  Also, Memphis has much more of an old, dense network of buildings that have been converted to lofts.  We got rid of all of those buildings here in Jax and now we have huge neighborhoods with single family homes, limited lots (except in Springfield) and organizations with sway who seem to not want to build up or build in different, new architectural styles.  We can put a system in, and in other cities it might spur development, but in Jax it won’t until we change our development system/political process.

Portland also has seen "new" high density infill development, even in historical areas.  SPAR and RAP would never allow that here in Jax.

Quote from: letters and numbers on January 19, 2011, 02:21:46 PM
Hey you know I read that a modern house going to go up on walnut street in springfield! Thats friggin awesome right?

Yes.

QuoteAnd why does Hogan's creek come up in every thread nowadays?

b/c of this:

QuoteInstead about worrying about density, more focus should be given to creating seamless front door connectivity between walkable destinations. Do this and you'll find that density in the form of more complementing walkable development will begin to grow around your investment.

Every major study done downtown emphasizes the importance of restoring the Hogans Creek/Klutho Park Greenbelt.  Check it out for yourself.  Start by looking up the Downtown Master Plan currently available at coj.net.  You can also check out studies done by DVI and JCCI on this very subject, or Cornerstone's recent trip to Indy.  All of them identify this greenbelt as a fundamental key to connectivity, yet our current leaders turn their back on this very subject.

Currently the surrounding urban core neighborhoods are literally cutoff from downtown.  Reconnecting and eliminating the no-mans land choking off the core neighborhoods are fundamental to revitilization. 

Take a look at the connection from Downtown Orlando/Lake Eola/Thornton Park.  I posted some pictures from my trip to Orlando two weeks ago.  This is the perfect example and it doesn't take an expensive trip to Indianapolis to see how urban development works when done correctly.

QuotePerhaps a well implemented park and ride rail system can help bring our numbers for downtown up and spur development there, but it would be a gamble at this point.

Simms, I'm going to be in Atlanta in a few weeks... we should hook up.  I'll bring the Bold City so you can stop drinking that pisswater from 420 they try to serve you up in Dekalb/Fulton County.

What's a bigger gamble?  A functional, integrated transit system the likes of which this city hasn't seen in 40 years for about the cost of the proposed new overpass at JTB/95... or 10 more $200+million highway projects?

Quote from: simms3 on January 19, 2011, 02:45:53 PM
I have a chart (not on my computer) that gives a general feasibility for all transit systems.  It includes everything from express busses to feeder busses with 10 minute headways to walk up BRT to PandR BRT to LRT to HRT to commuter rail to everything.  Most systems need at least one of two things: residential density for walk up and heavy employment center (like at least Uptown Charlotte's size) for park and ride.  Our density is just not there for even many feeder bus lines to come around every 10 minutes, which is why our busses often come around once an hour or longer.  And our densest, 2nd largest employment center is not quite large enough by 99% of the unofficial standards.  We need at least 15 million SF and ~75,000 workers in one compact area.  The Southside is certainly not that, and our downtown is STRUGGLING to hit even 67% of those numbers.

If I were you, I'd take that chart with a grain of salt. History has proven that transportation stimulates development, not the other way around.  For every place you can find with at least 15 million SF, I can find a decent example of a well run and attractive system below that number.  On top of that, those places with +15 million most likely already had the transit in place, which encouraged the higher density they enjoy today.

QuoteIf I were a Jacksonville taxpayer I can easily tell you that even though I am a public transit proponent, I would not support spending any money on commuter rail yet, and no streetcars/LRT until I know that developers will be able to come in and actually build infill without our neighborhood/city political organizations making it too difficult for them.

Being a Jax taxpayer, I favor the most cost effective solution.  If it's not mass transit, then you're spending more tax money on subsidizing roads, which promote more low density development.  So at some point, you have to make a choice.  Recently, we've seen cities like Charlotte, Salt Lake City and St. Louis turn to cost efficient mass transit options to help build more sustainable dense urban environments.

Quote

Quote from: thelakelander on January 19, 2011, 01:44:30 PM
Circulators like streetcars build density. If you want more density, you put in the type of transportation network that generates it.  A trip to a city like Memphis or Portland proves this.  Instead about worrying about density, more focus should be given to creating seamless front door connectivity between walkable destinations. Do this and you'll find that density in the form of more complementing walkable development will begin to grow around your investment.

I agree to almost 100% of your point, but with RAP and SPAR how the hell are we going to build density when we had quite a time just approving a contemporary single family home in Springfield...a neighborhood with SOOOO many empty lots just waiting for anything?

Springfield and Riverside already have decent density.  Nevertheless, why the focus on these communities?  The Cathedral District, Brooklyn, LaVilla, New Springfield, Sugar Hill, St. Nicholas, etc. are places where we should also be encouraging contemporary infill that's not subject to historic district regulations.

QuoteAlso, Memphis has much more of an old, dense network of buildings that have been converted to lofts.  We got rid of all of those buildings here in Jax and now we have huge neighborhoods with single family homes, limited lots (except in Springfield) and organizations with sway who seem to not want to build up or build in different, new architectural styles.  We can put a system in, and in other cities it might spur development, but in Jax it won’t until we change our development system/political process.

Memphis' streetcar began operation in 1993.  Most of the lofts you talk about came after that.  In fact, many are forms of TOD.  While we've destroyed DT's density, we still have urban neighborhoods with their building fabric in place.  Durkeeville and New Springfield are two that come to mind.  I believe the 2030 Mobility Plan is also proof that the political side of things are changing as well.  Five years from now, we'll have a better idea on if the recent planning acts actually pay off.

Quote from: simms3 on January 19, 2011, 01:06:34 PM
...Commuter rail?  I'm worried it will be a huge failure like Nashville's with fewer than a thousand riders a day simply because our traffic is nowhere near bad enough...

Car-driving commuters on Blanding, US 17, Baymeadows, Beach, Atlantic, and Normandy would probably tend to disagree.

QuoteSimms, I'm going to be in Atlanta in a few weeks... we should hook up.  I'll bring the Bold City so you can stop drinking that pisswater from 420 they try to serve you up in Dekalb/Fulton County.

Bold City?  No way, bring him some Intuition. 

If the greenway is restored, is there sufficient space to run a path somehow under State and Union between springfield and DT??  A bike path along the creek from Klutho Park up to the Riverwalk would be amazing, but the main obstacle is State and Union. 

The ironic thing is that that path would basically be a State/Union for bikers, carrying them like an expressway through downtown.  Riders would be able to hop off anywhere on the North-South line, but they could use it to bypass downtown all together. 

Quote from: fieldafm on January 19, 2011, 03:07:46 PM

QuotePerhaps a well implemented park and ride rail system can help bring our numbers for downtown up and spur development there, but it would be a gamble at this point.

Simms, I'm going to be in Atlanta in a few weeks... we should hook up.  I'll bring the Bold City so you can stop drinking that pisswater from 420 they try to serve you up in Dekalb/Fulton County.

What's a bigger gamble?  A functional, integrated transit system the likes of which this city hasn't seen in 40 years for about the cost of the proposed new overpass at JTB/95... or 10 more $200+million highway projects?

Yes, I hate Sweetwater!  LoL  Just let me know via DM (sadly, I may not be here because I have a scheduled interview in Hong Kong on the 27th, but I may not be going because that's also an expensive gamble and I'm not yet proficient by any means with writing or speaking Putonghua or Cantonese/traditional Chinese and there is a written test).

Also, if I knew that we had policies in place to incentivize walkable development and TODs and higher density, even in our historic districts, then I would be 150% for spending whatever it takes, tax hikes and all, to build a complete system.  As of now, I am worried that commuter rail won't work in Jax and will be a flat waste/sunk cost on our books and I'm worried that even streetcars won't spur anything because we have way too much red tape and unfriendly policies (ironic coming from a conservative "less government" city).

I think Lake brings up a good point that the ball is rolling :D, but I'm still at a "wait and see" and "push better policies" stage rather than let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars or more on a system that will only work with better policies already in place and more political support.

Nashville's commuter rail struggles for riders because it serves a corridor with no people, adjacent walkable destinations, or real congestion.  It also doesn't help that the service is pretty in frequent.  With the service issue aside, a corridor like the line between DT Jax and Clay County has just about everything Nashville's corridor lacks.

QuoteAlso, if I knew that we had policies in place to incentivize walkable development and TODs and higher density, even in our historic districts, then I would be 150% for spending whatever it takes, tax hikes and all, to build a complete system.

The 2030 Mobility Plan modified our land use policies this past year, so what you describe is in place.  Also, the transportation side of the plan has a funding mechanism to pay for associated transportation improvements (roads, transit, bike and ped).  So, tax increases may not be needed at all.

Quote from: simms3 on January 19, 2011, 01:00:46 PM
After the recent threads/developments posted unfolding in San Marco, that will easily become the first hip, dense, mixed use neighborhood in Jacksonville simply because that's what they want and they don't have to cowtow to San Marco Preservation.

I'm glad to hear your optimism for San Marco, Simms3.  But I have to point out that San Marco Preservation Society IS the driving force behind the smart growth plan, San Marco by Design, that was featured recently in this forum.

Yes, we believe in the preservation of historic buildings.  Even more so, we are about quality of life.  Hence the focus is more on events, parks, neighborhood improvement plans and promoting our local businesses.

Well it seems to be less of a burden on developers than RAP or SPAR.  Just knowing what some people in Avondale have to go through just to have something changed with their private house is not a good sign for developers who may want to build affordable lofts in a contemporary building somewhere in Avondale or Riverside.  I've seen the overlay, etc, and I've seen progress, but I'm thinking are Avondale and Riverside forever going to be entirely single family housing?  Is there even land for new mixed use infill without knocking down a couple of homes?  Would SPAR even give a 100 unit, 6 floor modern apartment building a chance on one of their contiguous empty lots?  It seems like they will hold out for more SRG homes.

And I go back and forth on my thoughts on demolition of houses in Springfield, but I'm in a wishy washy pro-demolition of certain houses phase.  I want to see Jacksonville become a walkable, dense city that *can* support mass transit.  We won't get there with our current density levels in the core and with only single family housing.  We need higher density.  We need more freedom of architectural expression.  We are beginning to implement better policies, finally.  Are SPAR and RAP going to be on board?

If I lived in any of our core neighborhoods as they stand, I would walk when I can if convenient (but with only single family, shops and the grocery store could be 5+ blocks away) and I doubt I would take public transit.  Even here in Atlanta, which has the most extensive system in the South and I live across from a station, I DRIVE 90% OF THE TIME!  This in a dense city with pockets of walkability.  It's too easy and convenient even with Atlanta's scope, and many garages are free or cheap and put you right where the stores/grocery stores are.  Jacksonville isn't even close to that yet, and we expect everyone to ditch their cars for streetcars or LRT or commuter rail?  The traffic in Jax isn't even that bad!

I mean would RAP and SPAR even allow the kind of new development that has transformed 5th Ave in Naples to transform Avondale, King Street, and Main Street?  5th Ave is a destination.  Avondale and Riverside and Springfield are where you go to eat and maybe have a drink and then drive back home.  Just saying.  Have to play devil's advocate here.

Quote from: fieldafm on January 19, 2011, 03:07:46 PM
I'll bring the Bold City so you can stop drinking that pisswater from 420

+1

Quote from: Shwaz on January 19, 2011, 10:11:59 AM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 19, 2011, 09:00:24 AM

Quote4. Ride The Rail

Once auto-centric Dallas is another example of how real-estate opportunities perk up alongside rail-based mass transit corridors.  Since launching its light rail system in 1996, Dallas has witnessed billions in transit-oriented development sprout up around its system.  With more rail lines planned for Dallas, Seattle, Charlotte and other cities, is the next hot neighborhood a future train stop around the corner from you?

No, because rail is never coming to Jax.  I'd love to know when metrojax started talking about rail.  Well, it would actually be the site we were all on before we came to metrojax.  Was that '05? Earlier?

I'm starting to lose faith in rail and Jax.  The next mayor needs to get our city on the right track and our citizens need to pull their heads out of the sand.  Jax's government and citizens are still living in 1997, the rest of the world is not.

+1 Gen Y will be in retirement homes down in Boca before the first commuter station is up & running.

This.

I too am starting to grow tired of this fight. I sorta get the impression from lack of action that we're just all screaming into the dark. It's very difficult to try to influence an entire town that are either asleep or just hunky dory with the way things are. All the while as we watch other cities that are similiarly sized (or smaller) moving & shaking, actually getting things done & are light years ahead of us already.

At this point, one has to put these things into broader perspective & realistically look at just how long it would take to get Jax to a point that we'd all like to see in these regards.

2030 plan?? I'm just saying, I'll be in my 50s by then. I already feel like I've sorta wasted a lot of my last 4 years on Earth here already because not one thing has actually been done.  :-[

Food for thought....

Length of select rail systems & their daily ridership today

21.5 miles (17,300 riders/day) - New Orleans

20 miles (37,400/day) - Phoenix

12 miles (35,000/day) - Minneapolis

9.6 miles (20,200/day) - Charlotte

7.5 miles (35,000/day) - Houston

6.7 miles (3,800/day) - Memphis

6.4 miles (18,800/day) - Buffalo

2.5 miles (340/day) - Little Rock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership


The 2030 mobility plan and TPO's 2035 LRTP have nearly 100 miles of rail in them.  If we can accomplish that much network in 20 years, that will be really impressive.  However, let's not not kid ourselves.  Our city is a county.  However, our actual urban core is relatively small.  In other words, all we really need is about 5 - 10 mile starter that ties in our urban neighborhoods with DT and we'll be well on our way to creating a decent walkable center.  There's no reason we can't have that within five years or so.

Btw, take a look at the New Orleans, Phoenix and Houston numbers.  There goes the density argument.  Being able to use your transit line to tie in people directly with where they want to go is much more important than overall community density or attempting to extend your transit spine to every nook and cranny of a sprawled out county.

Yea, but it won't be walkable with large swaths of single family homes.  Walkable implies mixed use density and Riverside and San Marco kinda sorta can be walkable but Avondale is too low density.  Will RAP and SPAR allow developers to come in and make Avondale and Riverside and Springfield walkable, even if that means leveling a few of the older houses/buildings?  There is no point in "spurring economic development/TODs" if said TODs and higher density developments can't actually be built due to historic preservation nazis, and mass transit alone won't spur the change we need downtown, especially since the residents of these neighborhoods that work downtown love their comfortable cars and don't have to fight traffic.

I mean, just from experience, if it's easier and more convenient for me to use a car just to get around Midtown Atlanta even though I live across from an HRT subway station on the most extensive system in the South, then how are we going to convince enough people in Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, Lakewood, Springfield, etc to ditch their cars and walk a few blocks past other houses to get to a transit stop?  Especially when there is already no traffic in our urban core.  Midtown is denser than our downtown in terms of residents, office workers, and retail, with heavier traffic, and it's still easier to use a car in most cases.  Our "dense" neighborhoods are entirely single family, and not as dense as they are in New Orleans.

As it stands right now, if we had a streetcar line connecting Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield, the most use I see of it is during lunch hour when office workers downtown may want to conveniently leave downtown to eat lunch in one of these areas.  I don't see "many" residents taking it to work and I don't see much weekend or night time use.

Also, with commuter rail, since it would run during peak traffic times, I think express commuter busses setting out from park and ride lots would function very similarly.  It's about $3 one way for comfortable, large seats and the same overall convenience.  The bus may sit in traffic, too, but it's Jacksonville traffic, meaning pretty much no traffic.  They are highly successful in Atlanta and receive A LOT of ridership and they are cheaper and easier to implement than clearing ROW with the rail companies for commuter rail.

QuoteYea, but it won't be walkable with large swaths of single family homes.  Walkable implies mixed use density and Riverside and San Marco kinda sorta can be walkable but Avondale is too low density.  Will RAP and SPAR allow developers to come in and make Avondale and Riverside and Springfield walkable, even if that means leveling a few of the older houses/buildings?  There is no point in "spurring economic development/TODs" if said TODs and higher density developments can't actually be built due to historic preservation nazis, and mass transit alone won't spur the change we need downtown, especially since the residents of these neighborhoods that work downtown love their comfortable cars and don't have to fight traffic.

In Charlotte, their LRT bought just as much life to the South End as it did to Uptown. I'm looking way past Riverside, Springfield and Avondale.  Imo, those aren't the hot spots of the future.  Its the continued overlooked spots of the Northside, like Durkeeville and New Springfield or around DT like the Cathedral District. Places where you do have a transit dependent population and a mix of urban building fabric already in place.  Places that have bones, lack strict development regulations and are affordable but lack connectivity.  Places that are also close to existing economic generators like Shands, EWC, Swisher and JAXPORT.  It just so happens that starter commuter rail and streetcar lines will provide them with the connectivity they lack.

QuoteI mean, just from experience, if it's easier and more convenient for me to use a car just to get around Midtown Atlanta even though I live across from an HRT subway station on the most extensive system in the South, then how are we going to convince enough people in Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, Lakewood, Springfield, etc to ditch their cars and walk a few blocks past other houses to get to a transit stop?  Especially when there is already no traffic in our urban core.  Midtown is denser than our downtown in terms of residents, office workers, and retail, with heavier traffic, and it's still easier to use a car in most cases.  Our "dense" neighborhoods are entirely single family, and not as dense as they are in New Orleans.

It's not about ditching cars.  It's more about giving residents viable alternative options to get around their community.  One thing I love about the core of Boston is that although mass transit exists, its just as exciting to walk or bike at times, due to the vibrancy at street level.  I believe we can accomplish a similar array of options in urban Jax in a short time period with the right leadership in place.

Quote from: simms3 on January 19, 2011, 09:07:17 PM
As it stands right now, if we had a streetcar line connecting Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield, the most use I see of it is during lunch hour when office workers downtown may want to conveniently leave downtown to eat lunch in one of these areas.  I don't see "many" residents taking it to work and I don't see much weekend or night time use.

I'd put in a streetcar strictly to spur the dense walkable development everyone claims they want.  Without fixed transit in place, TOD isn't going to happen.  From a transit standpoint, run it like a spine and you can easily up daily ridership.  Make sure it hits destinations like Five Points, St. Vincents, Cummer and the offices down Riverside Avenue.  At the same time, funnel your Westside bus routes into the fixed transit spine instead of taking them all into Rosa Parks.

QuoteAlso, with commuter rail, since it would run during peak traffic times, I think express commuter busses setting out from park and ride lots would function very similarly.  It's about $3 one way for comfortable, large seats and the same overall convenience.  The bus may sit in traffic, too, but it's Jacksonville traffic, meaning pretty much no traffic.  They are highly successful in Atlanta and receive A LOT of ridership and they are cheaper and easier to implement than clearing ROW with the rail companies for commuter rail.

Depends on how the commuter rail system is designed to serve the population along the corridor.  Again, I'd look at a model where changing development patterns over the long run is more important than ridership in the initial years.  Salt Lake City's Front Runner, Philly's SEPTA and Austin's Metrorail are good examples to study.

QuoteBold City?  No way, bring him some Intuition. 

If the greenway is restored, is there sufficient space to run a path somehow under State and Union between springfield and DT??  A bike path along the creek from Klutho Park up to the Riverwalk would be amazing, but the main obstacle is State and Union. 

Truthfully, I do prefer BC over Intuition.

Absolutely yes on the bikepath.  I spent all Sunday morning taking pictures of Hogan Creek and a few other potential blueways.  I'll post some stuff up shortly.

In the  meantime, take a look at the pictures from SCAD's Shipyards Design Project.  There is a presentation which integrates a restored Hogans Creek Greenway, complete with walking/biking paths and bike rental stations.

Lakelander, I agree with your opinions on what the next Hot Spots could be!  The places that will see infill are not in "historic districts" with reigning supreme almighty preservation societies.

I may be off, but I would hope that our University/Beach/Phillips corridors in town could become dense and walkable with fixed transit like areas of west LA.  Of course this is decades down the road if ever :(.

I'm just not as optimistic about transit in Jax right now.  Taking some classes on the subject really opened my eyes on a few things, and I love "complete streets," marrying transit planning and land planning, amending subdivision/zoning regulations, creating TIPs and comprehensive long term plans, etc etc.  Jax is missing a few ingredients, still, though.  Hopefully new leadership...!  It's not like fixed transit is the only thing that can spur dense, mixed use infill development.  Most of Atlanta's infill is nowhere near current MARTA stations and they are in historic districts.

With fixed transit, I'll put it this way.  Put it in and its like stomping on the gas instead of waiting decades for things to change.  The turn around in places like DC's Columbia Heights, Portland's Pearl District Miami's Downtown Dadeland and Tampa's Channel District would not have happened without the investment in fixed transit, strengthening the connectivity of those places with the rest of the community.  Considering its affordability, its really one of the cheapest things we can do to aggressively stimulate sustainable economic development through the utilization of funds already being generated.

As for being optimistic, I must say I am.  When we started MJ in 2006, most of the stuff being discussed today only happened on the website.  Five years later, the majority of those things have already been incorporated into JTA's long term plans, the LRTP, COJ's comp plan and land use regulations and now we actually have something in the works that can provide initial funding without raising taxes or having a public referendum.  Combine this in with the change in vision at the federal level and a new mayor taking office this year and we have opportunity.  Imo, the stars have finally aligned and opportunity is knocking at the door.  Over the next year or two, we'll either take advantage or completely miss the boat.

Simms you obviously don't know Jax very well if you honestly think that Univerisity/Beach/ Philips Hwy corridors would EVER be dense and walkable.  The car culture is too ingrained in this city and the only exceptions are the very neighborhoods that you continue to claim are under the thumbs of "almighty preservation societies".

I'm curious if you understand that without RAP, most of Riverside would have been turned into surface parking lots by a hospital without any regard to the disastrous results to the residents in the neighborhood.  If you supposedly live across the street from a train station in ATL, I would suggest you use it.  Also, I would invite you to come to Jax and explore the only walkable communities of this city, Riverside/ Avondale, Springfield and San Marco .   

You suggest that San Marco may invite higher density residential, because of a lack of historic district status, but it may very well end up being either a parking lot for Baptist hospital or much of the neighborhood being razed for commercial development.  Remember E. San Marco that leveled several city blocks for condos/retail and has been empty for over 4 years?  The promised Publix has never been delivered and what has the neighborhood been left with?  Just saying.

Valid points where I agree, but I think I'm a little more familiar with the city than you give me credit for :).  Also, just as you have invited me down to Jacksonville to tour the city, I am inviting you up to Atlanta to stay as a resident in Midtown to see whether or not you would actually use MARTA as much as you recommend that I use MARTA.  I would be interested to see if you would even attempt to ride MARTA after 9-10 at night, period.

Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, and San Marco have walkable stretches, but the entire neighborhoods are not walkable for what most people would label as walkable.  If all of Oak Street were a continuous stretch of 3-5 floor apartments/offices with stores, bars, and restaurants on the ground level from 5 Points to the Shoppes of Avondale, and if 5 Points and the Shoppes were larger and denser, and there were more apartments scattered throughout this stretch, then it might be considered walkable.  As it stands now, there are 3 scattered 3-4 block areas with somewhat walkability separated by miles/blocks upon blocks of single family homes and a few duplexes/quadplexes.

Springfield has the potential to have a very cool, unique mix of old and new.  It might lose its historic district status, but to have a bunch of new lofts and apartments and shops with funky, contemporary designs next to old prairie style homes would be better than having the current mix that is there, which includes some restored homes, lots of vacant commercial space, lots of vacant homes, and lots of cleared lots.

QuoteIf all of Oak Street were a continuous stretch of 3-5 floor apartments/offices with stores, bars, and restaurants on the ground level from 5 Points to the Shoppes of Avondale, and if 5 Points and the Shoppes were larger and denser, and there were more apartments scattered throughout this stretch, then it might be considered walkable.

This is where you'll have the dilemma.  Its very rare that a city will be able to build that kind a density and walkability without fixed mass transit.  I'd be surprised if you can find more than three or four examples in the US.  Even in South Beach, much of that historic density would not have happened without the streetcar system that operated there until 1939.

QuoteAs it stands now, there are 3 scattered 3-4 block areas with somewhat walkability separated by miles/blocks upon blocks of single family homes and a few duplexes/quadplexes

This is why I said, take the info in the book/chart you have with a grain of salt.  Walkability in the majority of America's cities meet the same description.  However, what a decent mass transit system does is effectively tie these 3-4 block walkable areas together with employment centers and areas of decent residential density.  Over time those 3-4 block walkable areas tend to stretch out along the transit corridor, creating the density/walkability your chart has identified as being needed for successful transit.  By the way, one thing cities are beginning to do, is link a few of these 3-4 block areas together with another popular destination as the endpoints of their transit lines.  In the center, they attempt to place the route into underutilized or blighted areas like Brooklyn or LaVilla to spur TOD in them.  Portland's Pearl District is probably the most popular example but another to keep your eye on the next couple of years is Detroit.

I think for starters, the gas station property in the Shoppes of Avondale should become a mixed use structure with no fewer than 20 residences and ground level retail.  The properties along St Johns between the Shoppes and Boone park should be the same thing.  Commander Apartment project proposed a few years ago needs to go through with a beefed up retail component, and more residences outside the tower.  There are a couple lots near San Juan and Herschel that can support Higher density.  

Next, run a streetcar down St Johns from San Juan to 5 Points, where you could transfer to the skyway at Annie Lytle.  Send the same streetcar line back down Park street to McDuff, then down Mcduff to Aberdeen to Herschel to St Johns (I think this exactly duplicates the old streetcar line).  

Then, go medium density (3-6 floors) on King Street, McDuff, Stockton, and Park.  There's no reason First Guaranty needs to take up 6 blocks.  Consolidate or remove the two giant St Vincents surface lots along riverside Ave. Those two properties could support another 400 residents. Once all these areas are built up, I think sufficient momentum and density would be established that the neighborhood would build itself up from here on out.

The RAP area appeal is due in part to a long history of guarding against an onslaught of change.RAP arrangements may not lend itself to visions of "Hot" neighborhood precisely for the same reasons it is a certifiably "cool" place to live and work.

Recent RAP area city "Overlay" public visioning excercises tended to endorse the status quo.Even the Herschel Street/Geraldine animal hospital bottleneck received no bad marks however 'what if' proposals shared in this thread-removing houses for garage parking and other 'in fill' would have certainly sparked an uprising.
In fact the Loop/Fishweir Creek area overwhelmingly envisioned as a Park.Acknowledged unlikely but that is where the strings to the resident's heart leads.


I am curious about another item perhaps related to this thread:I see that in the recent past 4% of Clay Countians that have moved moved to ......Duval.

See Lake, I actually agree, but I don't think Avondale/most of Riverside will ever be actually dense enough to make a new streetcar line running through it worth it, and it's precisely because the residents and the RAP don't want anything to change from what it is, as North Miami points out.

Streetcars would have served these neighborhoods at current density well back in the 1920s because not many people had cars then and everyone worked downtown (and there weren't parking garages like there are today).  Parking in the commercial areas today is hardly ever a problem, and it's quicker, just as cheap, and more convenient to just hop in your car from Avondale to 5 Points.

Now if RAP changes its tune and we can tweak the Overlay to encourage denser new development, even if a few houses and duplexes have to go, then a streetcar could be worth it.

The commercial areas as they are today are basically restaurants and a few shops run by housewives and mom/pops.  They aren't "employment centers".  If we allowed a few 5-10 floor office buildings in select areas, then we would be talking.  They could actually be great locations for doctor/outpatient, law, appraisal, accounting, design, etc offices and great locations for spas and small financial businesses if we allowed small office buildings.  Galleries and shops could go in the ground floor/lobby.  It would be slightly similar to Coral Gables in Miami, which is not served by the Metro, but is still easy to use and has easy parking.

You don't have to be as dense as Boston's Back Bay to be able to support a streetcar.  That's a myth.  Riverside is already dense enough to be one of many destinations along a fixed mass transit spine.  Add to that, the ability to link destinations like St. Vincents, Five Points and the offices down Riverside Avenue with DT while also exposing Brooklyn for infill development makes such an economic development project more viable.

With that said, push the line to Blanding, which will allow you to funnel in all Westside bus traffic into your system if higher ridership is your one and only main focus.  An example of this would be LA's red line subway and orange line BRT.

Quote from: simms3 on January 20, 2011, 12:45:09 PM
See Lake, I actually agree, but I don't think Avondale/most of Riverside will ever be actually dense enough to make a new streetcar line running through it worth it, and it's precisely because the residents and the RAP don't want anything to change from what it is, as North Miami points out.

Streetcars would have served these neighborhoods at current density well back in the 1920s because not many people had cars then and everyone worked downtown (and there weren't parking garages like there are today).  Parking in the commercial areas today is hardly ever a problem, and it's quicker, just as cheap, and more convenient to just hop in your car from Avondale to 5 Points.

Now if RAP changes its tune and we can tweak the Overlay to encourage denser new development, even if a few houses and duplexes have to go, then a streetcar could be worth it.

The commercial areas as they are today are basically restaurants and a few shops run by housewives and mom/pops.  They aren't "employment centers".  If we allowed a few 5-10 floor office buildings in select areas, then we would be talking.  They could actually be great locations for doctor/outpatient, law, appraisal, accounting, design, etc offices and great locations for spas and small financial businesses if we allowed small office buildings.  Galleries and shops could go in the ground floor/lobby.  It would be slightly similar to Coral Gables in Miami, which is not served by the Metro, but is still easy to use and has easy parking.

Neither do I. Even Riverside & Avondale aren't really "connected" in a sense that I can move freely between the two. I can huff it by biking between them, but lets get real, most people arent going to do that.

This is why if they ever build something like this, they HAVE to connect to the rest of the core right off the bat (Avondale, Riverside, Downtown, Springfield, San Marco, etc). These areas in themselves in the grand scheme of things (especially their business districts) aren't big at all. These little shopping villages like Avondale have & like Five Points have aren't dense enough to support an entire streetcar line (or whatever) on their own. And as far as true urban environments go, they're kind of "sleepy" (stuff closes early, not much going on on weeknights, etc).

Now if you could get someone living in Avondale over to San Marco or up to Springfield in a safe, affordable manner that's consistent, then you might be onto something. Until then, I wouldn't even try it.

If we're going to invest in a streetcar, its going to have to connect multiple destinations together.  That's the whole point.  Connect a few popular walkable destinations and funnel infill growth into the areas between them, creating a large walkable urban core in the long run. 

If not, you've got the same situation we have with the skyway.  Something that goes from nowhere to nowhere.  Riverside, San Marco, DT, etc. all should be considered as stops along a transit spine that connects these neighborhoods and others with various major destinations and employment centers throughout the urban core and eventually the city.

Here are some new townhouse developments in Columbus, OH.  They are on Gay and Fifth Streets, near downtown.  If we're going to build streetcars, we need to allow developments like these.  Currently, we are filled to the brim with single family homes, and no matter how small the yards and close together the houses, they don't make a $300M+ system worth it for 99% of Duval taxpayers.  Would RAP and SPAR allow stuff like this?

Pictures from Chadoh25 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=167931) on Columbus Ohio and the metro area, page 15 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=944222&page=15).

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/chadoh21/Downtown%20Columbus%20Ohio/141-1.jpg)

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(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/chadoh21/Downtown%20Columbus%20Ohio/173.jpg)

The Columbus Library as a bonus.  Wish our new courthouse looked half as good.  Fortunately, our library does because we went with an actually good architect (my favorite architect, Bob Stern).
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/chadoh21/Downtown%20Columbus%20Ohio/181-1.jpg)


Here are a few of my pictures from a snow this December in Atlanta.  They show some contemporary apartments.  These things are going up everywhere in Atlanta, and as a result, we have pockets of walkability that school what we have going on in Jacksonville.  There must be 50 new buildings in the Atlanta core in Midtown West, Ralph McGill, Old 4th Ward, Grant Park, Inman Park, etc etc just like these.  There is space for retail on the ground level.  Intown Atlanta is even starting to see upscale mall stores locate in town.  Anthropologie just renovated a warehouse 1.5 miles West of me in Midtown West, and it’s not alone.  These areas aren’t even served by rail, but there is abundant parking and they are dense and walkable.  Atlanta also has bike sharing and zip cars, so it is lightyears ahead of Jax even though it is lightyears behind its northern peers.

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/WhiteChristmasandTechTour181.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/WhiteChristmasandTechTour188.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/WhiteChristmasandTechTour191.jpg)

Would SPAR and RAP allow developments like this?  Why are Nashville, Charlotte, Orlando, Tampa, Austin, Salt Lake City, Indianapolis, Raleigh, Richmond, and other cities seeing denser infill like this, and we, with a 20% decadal growth rate and great urban bones, don’t see anything of the sort?  I know Brooklyn Park was going to be a development of this sort (not in a historic district….oh no, we wouldn’t dare tear down one house for this or allow this on any empty lots in Springfield), but it failed.

Here are some pictures from Atlanta’s Edgewood Historic District.  I proposed a project for an empty lot on Edgewood.  This area is exploding with rebirth.  It is a historic district and it has the King Memorial and tons of history/old buildings, etc.  Still, new buildings are allowed and encouraged.  There are some restrictions on Edgewood and Auburn Ave (these two streets will see streetcar within a few years), but most of the area has few restrictions and a TAD issues bonds every now and again to help developers out.

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject001.jpg)

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BBQ Restaurant in an old gas station with restored lofts behind it.  *LOTS* of restored lofts in Atlanta.
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(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject011.jpg)

This is the lot I worked on.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject016.jpg)

Quite a mix of styles here.  Nothing architecturally spectacular or fitting, but better than blight and empty lots!
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject017.jpg)

What Main Street in Springfield SHOULD look like.  Springfield has more middle class residents than this area, yet this area is seeing 4 star restaurants started by celebrity chefs in old warehouses (Kevin Rathbun, Rathbun Steak, etc) and tons of new bars and shops and galleries.  Springfield has?
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject019.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject022.jpg)

Close to downtown, yes, but should still be an example for Jacksonville.  Auburn Avenue is even more spectacular, but my project was not on that street, so no pictures one block over.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject026.jpg)

This building “fit” some old, historic structures into its façade.  On the ground floor are a Smoothie King, a Thai restaurant, residential services like a laundry place, etc etc.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject028.jpg)

I’ll post some pictures of a conceptual project I worked on for the street last year.  It’s a project that I don’t think SPAR and RAP would approve of.

I chose the Edgewood Avenue Historic District because it was already becoming a hot and up and coming neighborhood, but I predicted it would just explode.  The announcement for the new streetcar line funded mostly by TIGER II was just the icing on the cake.

Here are a few slides from a project I did a while back, just to give you an idea of a small, simple project that would be relatively easy to implement and could incorporate any number of designs.  I don’t think SPAR or RAP would allow such a thing, maybe RAP.  These are the small, little developments that will make a neighborhood walkable and a streetcar viable.  Unfortunately, they seem to be frowned upon in Jacksonville, and there is too much red tape.  This is purely conceptual and very basic.  Financing was calculated using a friend from the Atlanta Development Authority in charge of TADs and Argus Software (which I’m fortunate to have).  These are just a few of the slides.

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide1.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide2.jpg)

This only applies to Edgewood Avenue to keep the street in character.  There aren’t so many restrictions on architectural features (hardly any actually).  They simply apply strict bulk density codes and almost any use is allowed.  This lack of regulation in a historic district would be foreign in Jacksonville.  6 floor contemporary apartments and even high rises can go up in most places in the area, just not on Edgewood.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide3.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide4.jpg)

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(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide6.jpg)

TADs: Successful in so many cities, foreign in Jacksonville.  The point of a TAD is new development in struggling areas to bring up the tax base after a certain period via property value increases and new developments.  Jacksonville seems to not want new developments within 3 miles of downtown unless it looks stupidly like a 2011 version of a 1920 building/home.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide7.jpg)

I even used MetroJacksonville :) (I hope that was ok)
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide8.jpg)

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(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide11.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide12.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide13.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide14.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide15.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide16.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/Slide17.jpg)

I sketched out my idea for the site and had a friend in the College of Architecture work on the renderings.  She has the renderings on the updated PowerPoint, which I have on a drive, but I’m lazy and these will do.

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject043.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject041.jpg)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Edgewood%20Avenue%20Project/EdgewoodAvenueProject042.jpg)

Sorry for so many pictures, but I, too, try to spot up and coming neighborhoods.  I would love to be a developer some day.  It is important to me.  I’m just not very optimistic about Jacksonville because it’s a bundle of red tape.  Jax wants to be something it really can’t be and it wants to enforce so many rules and regulations as if there are developers falling out of the sky trying to build, when really there is nobody trying to do anything because it sucks to work with the City of Jacksonville/historic preservation groups compared to other places.  A streetcar line can work as long as we can let go of a little bit of the past and embrace the future.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2011, 10:29:43 PM
If we're going to invest in a streetcar, its going to have to connect multiple destinations together.  That's the whole point.  Connect a few popular walkable destinations and funnel infill growth into the areas between them, creating a large walkable urban core in the long run. 

If not, you've got the same situation we have with the skyway.  Something that goes from nowhere to nowhere.  Riverside, San Marco, DT, etc. all should be considered as stops along a transit spine that connects these neighborhoods and others with various major destinations and employment centers throughout the urban core and eventually the city.

Col. Hans Landa: [giddy] Oooh, that's a BINGO!.....Is that the way you say it? "That's a bingo?"
Lt. Aldo Raine: You just say "bingo".
Col. Hans Landa: Bingo! How fun!

Quote from: simms3 on January 22, 2011, 12:49:53 AM
Here are some new townhouse developments in Columbus, OH.  They are on Gay and Fifth Streets, near downtown.  If we're going to build streetcars, we need to allow developments like these.  Currently, we are filled to the brim with single family homes, and no matter how small the yards and close together the houses, they don't make a $300M+ system worth it for 99% of Duval taxpayers.  Would RAP and SPAR allow stuff like this?

Nice! Yeah, that's the thing. Lack of true density in the neighborhoods surrounding downtown (esp the historic ones). They're basically almost all single family residential homes that you can't really do anything else with. And their business districts can't be extended anymore either. To get the kind of density you need, we have to make better use of land space & abandoned buildings.

Really "historic Springfield" needs to get off its high horse, cut the phony bologna neighborhood boundaries & embrace "new Springfield" with its warehouse district. Convert some of that space into lofts, apartments, mixed-use commercial space, galleries, etc. But good luck getting them to go for that.

To me, that area has the most potential for this kind of thing than anywhere else in North Florida.

Simms3 - great pictures and projects!  Your passion for this stuff is inspiring.

Quote from: simms3 on January 22, 2011, 01:20:16 AM
A streetcar line can work as long as we can let go of a little bit of the past and embrace the future.

The streetcar can be what ties the two together.  The most interesting places I travel to are the ones who have figured out how to celebrate the past and look to the future.  People like to know where they came from.  For example, I like sitting in really old churches thinking of what people must have been praying about 500 years before me.  I also like new development and seeing creativity in action.  The two can co-exist.

Simms great shots.  However, we're not done if they aren't allowed in Riverside and Springfield.  Why not focus these things on districts that were originally developed to be twice as dense as those two neighborhoods and where you wouldn't waste time battling residents you'll need for support?  If we want downtown to really succeed, this is the style of the development that should be encouraged in neighborhoods like Brooklyn, LaVilla, Sugar Hill, the Eastside, New Springfield and the Cathedral District.  Luckily, a short starter fixed transit line connecting urban Jax's popular historic districts and downtown would also pierce these areas.  Given that land is cheaper in them and what you can do with property isn't as regulated, they set up as places where affordability and creativity can combine to create the scenes in the images you've shared.  

(http://www.looptrolley.org/images/main_images/LoopTrolleyRouteMap.jpg)

QuoteWhy a Trolley and Why Now?

There would be many advantages to operating a trolley in The Loop for both the area directly served and the region as a whole.

Connectivity: The Loop Trolley will link two existing MetroLink Stations to cultural institutions like the Missouri History Museum, the University City City Hall, and all the attractions in The Loop like theaters, restaurants, offices and shopping opportunities with vibrant mixed-use and residential neighborhoods.

Economic Development: Trolleys have proven to be a catalyst for residential, commercial and recreational development in cities like Memphis, Little Rock, Tampa and Portland. This is key for the east section of the alignment.

Pedestrian-Friendly Neighborhoods: Trolleys make it easy for people to get around and stop at several locations without the problem of finding parking. This will only enhance The Loop and all that it has to offer as one of the Ten Great Streets in America as designated by the American Planning Association in 2007. It will also provide access into Forest Park, one of the city's highlights.

Environmentally-Friendly: Trolleys are a great way for St. Louis to go green. Because they are powered by electricity, trolleys are much quieter and cleaner than gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles. They also enable individuals to reduce their carbon footprint, so everyone can do their part to go green!

Tourist Attraction: Trolleys can also enhance the unique and special sense of place that is The Loop and the St. Louis region. St. Louis is famous for its historic streetcars. This brings history alive for residents and tourists alike.

http://www.looptrolley.org

You should check out the discussion happening in St. Louis, regarding their Delmar Loop streetcar project that they just won a $25 million federal urban livability grant to construct.  The short line will connect the popular Delmar Loop (about two or three times the lenght of our Shoppes of Avondale) with their popular Forest Park.  One of the main reasons they won the grant is because most of the line goes through the neighborhoods of West End and DeBaliviere Place.  They're using the streetcar as an economic development tool to stimulate the type of development you suggest should be in Riverside in a neighborhood every bit as depressed as Brooklyn.  They're using concept where you connect two popular destinations together as your end points to help funnel growth and redevelopment in between them.  We should be applying the same concept, which was recently made famous by Portland's experience with the Pearl District.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 22, 2011, 07:35:58 AM

Quote from: simms3 on January 22, 2011, 01:20:16 AM
A streetcar line can work as long as we can let go of a little bit of the past and embrace the future.

The streetcar can be what ties the two together.  The most interesting places I travel to are the ones who have figured out how to celebrate the past and look to the future.  People like to know where they came from.  For example, I like sitting in really old churches thinking of what people must have been praying about 500 years before me.  I also like new development and seeing creativity in action.  The two can co-exist.

I agree.  This is one of the main reasons not to overlook the spots in need of redevelopment that exist between today's popular neighborhoods.  From a historical standpoint, many date back further and are the home of significant historical events that have shaped the Jacksonville we know of today.  Like the popular places, they also have historic building stock remaining.  However, at this point they are still affordable, which makes infill development feasible to the average resident as well as the big wig developer.  In addition to this, they aren't official historic districts.  That means anyone really desiring to use their creativity can do so without running up against neighborhood/preservation group opposition.  So all we really need to do is connect our popular spots together because that connectivity will also bring opportunity to these districts.  

Here are links to photo tours of overlooked places that would stand to benefit the most (in terms of economic development) from connecting places like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco with downtown.

Cathedral District (DT/Springfield streetcar route would go right through district)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-sep-urban-neighborhoods-the-cathedral-district

New Springfield (starter commuter rail line would tie neighborhood with Shands and downtown)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-aug-forgotten-jacksonville-new-springfield

Durkeeville (starter commuter rail line would tie neighborhood with Shands and downtown)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-apr-urban-neighborhoods-durkeeville

LaVilla (all modes of transportation would be funneled into the JTC)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-aug-lavilla-jacksonvilles-first-incorporated-suburb

Eastside (streetcar line to stadium offers the possibility of tying in Florida Avenue)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-urban-neighborhoods-the-eastside

Murray Hill (commuter rail line to Clay County would connect neighborhood with DT)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-urban-neighborhoods-murray-hill

St. Nicholas (commuter rail and skyway extensions would allow for better connectivity assuming Overland Bridge project doesn't forget about pedestrian connectivity)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-urban-neighborhoods-st-nicholas

Fletcher Park (skyway extension to Atlantic Blvd could fuel redevelopment along Kings Avenue and Atlantic Blvd.)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-oct-urban-neighborhoods-fletcher-park

Brooklyn (DT/Riverside streetcar route would go through community)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-brooklyn-downtowns-final-frontier

Sugar Hill (commuter rail on neighborhood's edge and if elected, Mullaney wants this area to become a urban medical district with a medical school)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-lost-jacksonville-sugar-hill

How about once the skyway is extended to Atlantic Blvd along with a commuter rail station, we build a street car along Atlantic connecting San Marco Square and St Nicholas?

Since a streetcar won't be able to cross the FEC at grade, Atlantic Blvd would have to be elevated between Hendricks and Kings.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 22, 2011, 11:18:24 AM
How about once the skyway is extended to Atlantic Blvd along with a commuter rail station, we build a street car along Atlantic connecting San Marco Square and St Nicholas?

Idea fail... too much cold medicine and coffee

The best place for streetcar in Jacksonville to me is: Riverside to Downtown through Brooklyn.

Second would be Springfield/Shands to Downtown (with stop at FCCJ skyway/bus station) and along Hogans Creek.  Actually, the more I think about it - this should be first.  Connect two major employment centers with the potential for dense urban redevelopment in between.  Also tie in the rejuventation of Hogans Creek.

Quote from: simms3 on January 22, 2011, 12:49:53 AM
Here are some new townhouse developments in Columbus, OH.  They are on Gay and Fifth Streets, near downtown.  If we're going to build streetcars, we need to allow developments like these.  Currently, we are filled to the brim with single family homes, and no matter how small the yards and close together the houses, they don't make a $300M+ system worth it for 99% of Duval taxpayers.  Would RAP and SPAR allow stuff like this?

Where did the $300 million figure or the idea that Duval County taxpayers would have to fund it come from? Just to keep readers from being confused, that's not what's happening in Jax. Jax's entire proposed streetcar system should be less than $100 million. That's something that connects Riverside, DT, Everbank Field and Springfield together. That cheaper than the proposed I-295/Collins interchange.  The Mobility Plan is expected to generate $50 million for it, which is a little less than the cost to build the Beach/Kernan overpass.  Assuming we can leverage those funds with federal matching grants or public/private partnerships, we won't need anything from local taxpayers. What has been cooked up locally stands to be a financial trendsetter nationally.  I can't wait to see how things work out in the upcoming years (assuming a mayor with vision is elected, of course).

Quote from: dougskiles on January 22, 2011, 11:40:18 AM
Actually, the more I think about it - this should be first.  Connect two major employment centers with the potential for dense urban redevelopment in between.  Also tie in the rejuventation of Hogans Creek.

Within the Mobility Plan the two top transit priority projects are: 1) a DT/Park & King streetcar alignment and 2) a starter commuter rail alignment along the S-Line and up to Zoo Parkway.  Combined, these projects would tie Riverside, St. Vincents, EWC, Shands, Springfield, New Springfield, Panama Park and Jax Zoo/Imeson Industrial Park with DT and the skyway.

I hear your points, and I have some of the answers already (to many of my questions) as do many of us.  I am just trying to paint a realistic/honest/non-sugarcoated picture of development in Jacksonville.  Berkman, Strand, and Peninsula did nothing for our city, yet all received public incentives.  Brooklyn Park?  I don't have all the details and most likely only the development firm does, but it failed here.  Nothing is happening in Jacksonville.  It's not 100% because we don't have a future streetcar or current streetcar/LRT; there are other reasons that we are failing.

I'm so mad that Jacksonville has over 11% unemployment when we should have below 10% given our economy and what we have going for it.  Our city is currently pathetic, no offense to it.  I know that we are the fire under the feet for our city leaders (meaning MetroJacksonville), and 99% of the time I am promoting and defending Jacksonville.  I have gone from 110% optimistic to 110% depressed about the situation in literally 2 weeks.  Mood swing?  hahah it could be!  Unfortunately, reality is setting in with me.  We have Mt. Everest to climb, and we don't have an oxygen tank to assist us.  I hope we don't die on the way.

I've read all those articles you posted, and they are great!  Our city should pay more attention.  Unfortunately, I get the gist that it half-heartedly does.  I see some progress, but progress that we make in Jax is worthless without some of the most vital components necessary.  All we need is one visionary.  Charlotte had one guy (who got demonized unfortunately for his role at BofA).  Most places just have 1-2-3 people who drive everything.  Jacksonville still has nobody, yet we have so much we could take advantage of.

Hot neighborhoods?  With all of the press Avondale and Springfield have received recently, one would think they would just begin to explode!  Nope.  Fat chance.  I used to be proud of these neighborhoods, until I got really involved in other cities and started traveling beyond restaurants and tourist traps.  We hardly have anything super unique!  Press?  I think other organizations thought they could be a huge help to what they saw as potential.  Fat chance.  We have stuff going on, but come on.  Preservation of single family homes needs to take a back seat to new development until we get something going on.

We screwed LaVilla and Brooklyn too much.  They are too desolate to be attractive to real, quality development.  They are like deserts with trees and parking lots.  Not a lot of potential until we hit downtown, Springfield, San Marco, and Riverside.  Unfortunately Springfield, Downtown, and Riverside have way too much red tape.  The economy doesn't help, but how the hell is Jacksonville's economy so bad when we are the most diverse economy in Florida by far!

We are about to lose some big ticket items in this city.  Short list?  Fabio Mecchetti, Wayne Weaver, Preston Haskell won't be around forever, I don't want to call too many people out, but there are a lot of people getting OLD or flat out leaving.  I can think of two people in the same league who have risen to the occasion, but they face quite a battle with our uneducated population, and people like Redman, Crescimbini, Yarborough, Brinton, and so many others who we all know hold our city back.

I have to end my rant, but it's time we got mad at how poorly our city is performing and we have to quit relying on "being in Florida" for our growth.  That will not help us anymore.  We have a diverse economy that we do jack **** about.  We have basically everything we need right at our fingertips.  We can no longer hold out for things, be picky, act like idiots, discourage change, or tout ultra low taxes as an attraction for business (if it was a real attraction, we'd have a lot more business).

$300 million figure was just something I pulled out of my butt.  I know a 2-3 mile starter streetcar line would cost under $100M.  Connecting the shops of Avondale, King St, 5 Points, Springfield, downtown, the sports district, San Marco, and perhaps a couple other areas could easily cost over $300M.

Also, I know about federal funding.  I know about public transit funding.  The taxpayer will still feel like he is footing the bill, even if he is footing 10% of the bill.  The total figure is what matters to the public.  Billions, even hundreds of millions of dollars scares the public, usually.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
I hear your points, and I have some of the answers already (to many of my questions) as do many of us.  I am just trying to paint a realistic/honest/non-sugarcoated picture of development in Jacksonville.  Berkman, Strand, and Peninsula did nothing for our city, yet all received public incentives.  Brooklyn Park?  I don't have all the details and most likely only the development firm does, but it failed here.  Nothing is happening in Jacksonville.  It's not 100% because we don't have a future streetcar or current streetcar/LRT; there are other reasons that we are failing.

I'm so mad that Jacksonville has over 11% unemployment when we should have below 10% given our economy and what we have going for it.  Our city is currently pathetic, no offense to it.  I know that we are the fire under the feet for our city leaders (meaning MetroJacksonville), and 99% of the time I am promoting and defending Jacksonville.  I have gone from 110% optimistic to 110% depressed about the situation in literally 2 weeks.  Mood swing?  hahah it could be!  Unfortunately, reality is setting in with me.  We have Mt. Everest to climb, and we don't have an oxygen tank to assist us.  I hope we don't die on the way.

I've read all those articles you posted, and they are great!  Our city should pay more attention.  Unfortunately, I get the gist that it half-heartedly does.  I see some progress, but progress that we make in Jax is worthless without some of the most vital components necessary.  All we need is one visionary.  Charlotte had one guy (who got demonized unfortunately for his role at BofA).  Most places just have 1-2-3 people who drive everything.  Jacksonville still has nobody, yet we have so much we could take advantage of.

Hot neighborhoods?  With all of the press Avondale and Springfield have received recently, one would think they would just begin to explode!  Nope.  Fat chance.  I used to be proud of these neighborhoods, until I got really involved in other cities and started traveling beyond restaurants and tourist traps.  We hardly have anything super unique!  Press?  I think other organizations thought they could be a huge help to what they saw as potential.  Fat chance.  We have stuff going on, but come on.  Preservation of single family homes needs to take a back seat to new development until we get something going on.

We screwed LaVilla and Brooklyn too much.  They are too desolate to be attractive to real, quality development.  They are like deserts with trees and parking lots.  Not a lot of potential until we hit downtown, Springfield, San Marco, and Riverside.  Unfortunately Springfield, Downtown, and Riverside have way too much red tape.  The economy doesn't help, but how the hell is Jacksonville's economy so bad when we are the most diverse economy in Florida by far!

We are about to lose some big ticket items in this city.  Short list?  Fabio Mecchetti, Wayne Weaver, Preston Haskell won't be around forever, I don't want to call too many people out, but there are a lot of people getting OLD or flat out leaving.  I can think of two people in the same league who have risen to the occasion, but they face quite a battle with our uneducated population, and people like Redman, Crescimbini, Yarborough, Brinton, and so many others who we all know hold our city back.

I have to end my rant, but it's time we got mad at how poorly our city is performing and we have to quit relying on "being in Florida" for our growth.  That will not help us anymore.  We have a diverse economy that we do jack **** about.  We have basically everything we need right at our fingertips.  We can no longer hold out for things, be picky, act like idiots, discourage change, or tout ultra low taxes as an attraction for business (if it was a real attraction, we'd have a lot more business).

I feel where you're coming from. It's tough being in a city that has so much potential & so much history fall victim to crappy leadership for so long, poor planning & most of its residents seeming like they couldn't care less. It's especially hard if you've lived around, travel a lot & even just read this blog comparing other cities & their own development & progression, all the while we're permanently stuck in 1st gear it would seem.

I can tell you now that it's the primary reason my wife & I are probably going to end up leaving Jax this summer & moving on. I mean, we do like it here & are def rooting for it, but damn. Four years of being here & all we basically have is still a lot of talk, while we watch other (sometimes WAY smaller) towns getting it together. It's frustrating as hell.

The point is, we're so behind here in all of these regards that it's gonna take probably decades to get up to snuff, especially when considering the economic struggles of everything nowadays. So that's a long time to sit by the sidelines & watch your years pass by while you wait for some dumb ass Joe Bob city leaders to pull their heads from their asses. Like I said, we like Jax a lot, but this is our lives & we only get one.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:29:53 AM
$300 million figure was just something I pulled out of my butt.  I know a 2-3 mile starter streetcar line would cost under $100M.  Connecting the shops of Avondale, King St, 5 Points, Springfield, downtown, the sports district, San Marco, and perhaps a couple other areas could easily cost over $300M.

You should be able to do a decent streetcar line in public ROW for around $10 million/mile.  If it cost you over that, you're throwing extra money away (ex. streetscapes, expensive landscaping, 100% double tracking, etc.).  With the skyway already in place, all you really need is about 5 - 10 miles of track to tie your urban neighborhoods together.  

QuoteAlso, I know about federal funding.  I know about public transit funding.  The taxpayer will still feel like he is footing the bill, even if he is footing 10% of the bill.  The total figure is what matters to the public.  Billions, even hundreds of millions of dollars scares the public, usually.

The creative play here is mobility fee funding.  We may actually be the first muncipality in the US to pull something off like this.  I'll reply to your other post later today.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
All we need is one visionary.  Charlotte had one guy (who got demonized unfortunately for his role at BofA).  Most places just have 1-2-3 people who drive everything.  Jacksonville still has nobody, yet we have so much we could take advantage of.

I disagree.  It is not one person it is thousands of people all working together.  We don't need a savior, we need everyday people to step up and do just a little bit more.  There are things around us everywhere that can be done.  And it's contagious.  You may see in other cities one or two people leading the show, but trust me, it is not just them doing all the work.  They are just the ones who rose to the top because of their leadership ability.  The backbone is the average person who is fed up with the status quo.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
We are about to lose some big ticket items in this city.  Short list?  Fabio Mecchetti, Wayne Weaver, Preston Haskell won't be around forever, I don't want to call too many people out, but there are a lot of people getting OLD or flat out leaving.

By the same logic, we are also losing some of the high-powered negative forces, too.  That some of those people are tightening their grip is evidence that they are losing it.  There is an increasing leadership vacuum in Jacksonville setting the stage for the next generation to step up.  So I say step up!  Keep applying the pressure!

^^^^When I say visionary, I'm talking either someone with lots of political power or lots of money that wants the same as the grassroots organization.  If we had a Brian Moynihan here in Jacksonville, posting here on MetroJax and basically yelling at city hall to do what's necessary, speaking to the people/educating them through press conference and meeting after press conference (b/c he can afford it), and lastly throwing money at big and small projects himself, we would be lightyears ahead of where we are.

Charlotte had tons of littletons like us clamoring for a better Uptown and public transit.  Then big wig Brian Moynihan, CEO of BofA, came along and agreed with the people and made sure it happened.  Uptown is what it is today and LYNX exists basically because Moynihan gave the grassroots organizations standing, money, and a voice.  Wachovia/Wells, Duke Energy, and all the other companies then had to follow suit so that they could enjoy some participation and credit with the rebirth of Uptown.

Jacksonville does not have anybody like this.  John Mica is actually our best hope because he wields huge political power and he champions much of what we are for here.

^^^^Also, the leaders I mentioned have done the most for this city in the past decade.  Ask yourself this: would Jacksonville be better off without Weaver, Haskell, Mechetti, Lovett (Betsy), etc etc.  I see Robert Clements and Tom Petway stepping up (the latter also getting kind of old).  Of our F500 companies, I don't see those executives doing much to improve our city.

We need people to help put us/keep us on the map, and to bring us to the attention of Washington politicians and New York financiers.  This is what we struggle with because we are an invisible town that has benefited from being in Florida and having the military and a diverse economy.  Our military presence here is potentially downsizing soon before we get the carrier as far away as 2019.  Our economy, for being so diverse, is one of the worst in the country.  Being in Florida will no longer benefit us.

Portland, Seattle, and Dallas all have private big wig visionaries.  You and I will just have to disagree here.  Having looked into and even studying certain people in a class I took in city planning, they can make a huge difference.  My opinion on the matter will not change.

Oh believe me, I'm not calling them visionaries (the ones here).  A couple have the potential to be visionaries, but aren't.  What I'm saying is these guys have given a lot of their time/money to causes, foundations, and cultural venues in the city, and to higher education and to high schools.  Some of them have kept their companies downtown (Rob Clements rehabbed a building downtown before he built a new one on Riverside Ave and tried to keep it as urban as possible).  None of these guys wield as much power/influence or are close to as visionary as some of the private leaders that Dallas, Seattle, and Portland have.

Bill Foley?  He could be the most powerful guy in Jax, and sure he brought 2 F500 companies here and employs so many people, but he is not in the Jacksonville game at all.  I'm just pointing out we need a big wig.  I love this website and my little self tries to contribute what I can, but I'll be damned if we can attract the attention of Washington and New York to get big things popping in our city.  We would never have gotten the Jags (and as a result put on the map) without Wayne Weaver.  All I'm saying is that those we do have are pretty much the only guys with connections to Washington and New York, and many of them are getting old and starting to sit back.

Quote from: stephendare on January 23, 2011, 12:11:13 PM

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
Portland, Seattle, and Dallas all have private big wig visionaries.  You and I will just have to disagree here.  Having looked into and even studying certain people in a class I took in city planning, they can make a huge difference.  My opinion on the matter will not change.

Well you are entitled to be as wrong about it as you would like to be.  Having lived in those cities, engaged in the study of redevelopment and city planning in all three, I can tell you for certain that grass roots is what created the impetus and the passion for vast improvements in their quality of life.

Ok, I'm sure it was the grass roots alone that gathered all the public support and found financing for all the great projects in those cities and got the eye of federal agencies for funding and got the eye of SF and NYC investors, etc etc.  I guess I'm completely wrong.  Why can't grass roots and the big visionaries WORK TOGETHER?  That's what happens in those cities.  It's not just the grass roots organizations just like it's not just the big wigs.  It takes both working together.  All I'm saying is here in Jax we have one of the best grass roots organizations and no big wig visionaries to help implement our ideas.  Those cities do.  Those cities are also a lot richer with more corporations and more people than Jax.

Fair enough.

There is only one thing that you can control in all of this and that is what YOU decide to do about it.  No sense complaining about what the big-wigs are or are not doing, just keep the focus on what you can do.  Sooner or later, someone comes along with the financial resources to do big things and sees the energy and vision of the local grassroots movement and decides they want to get on board.  Most likely because they see a financial opportunity.  I much prefer for Jacksonville's renewal do be driven by grassroots than a few deep pockets who can steer it whichever way they choose for their own gain.  It will be more long lasting and more beneficial for the most people.

To quote from Richard Florida's book, The Great Reset:

QuoteWhile Pittsburgh’s government and business leaders pressed for big-government solutions â€" new stadiums and convention centers â€" the city’s real turn-around was driven by community groups and citizen-led initiatives.  Community groups, local foundations, and nonprofits â€" not city hall or business-led economic development groups â€" drove its transformation, playing a key role in stabilizing and strengthening neighborhoods, building green, and spurring the development of the waterfront and redevelopment around the universities.

Quote from: stephendare on January 23, 2011, 12:46:38 PM

Thats why this next mayor is so important to us I think.  

Who do you believe, of the candidates in this race, is the best person for this?  Or can you say at this time?

Thank you.  That was exactlly the kind of insightful response I was hoping for.  Everyone talks about how brilliant Rick is, and I guess my biggest concern with people like him is the tendency to ultimately only listen to the ideas in their own head.  Like we've been discussing, a true lasting transformation is the result of the larger community effort.  Will Rick be able to influence JTA, JEA, the school board and all of the neighborhood & community groups like Audrey will?  I don't know him well enough to answer that question.  But from what I know of Audrey, she will do exactly that.

I have always held the opinion that the greatest leaders are the ones who can surround themselves with the most talented people working toward a common goal.  It doesn't work as well in reverse.

Hey I heard that the "smart money" is on hogan because moran and mullanhey voters will cancel another out. maybe the best thing is for one of those two to drop out so they don't split the vote!

Don't know anything about Elwood Hopkins.  Had to look him up, but he seems like he is on the ball.  There are so many people out there with different thoughts, though.  Also, thanks for your reply on the mayoral candidates.  Just watching them on video clips and reading about them made it hard for me to get a clear picture.  Your response definitely distinguishes them for me.  I can identify with Mullaney's style and I do like his tentative ideas, but it seems like Moran is more personable.  I already knew I didn't want Hogan for mayor.  Hmmmm, this will be hard.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
I hear your points, and I have some of the answers already (to many of my questions) as do many of us.  I am just trying to paint a realistic/honest/non-sugarcoated picture of development in Jacksonville.  Berkman, Strand, and Peninsula did nothing for our city, yet all received public incentives.  Brooklyn Park?  I don't have all the details and most likely only the development firm does, but it failed here.

I'm about as realistic and blunt as a person you'll ever find.  So when I speak about this topic, there's no sugarcoating.  Brooklyn Park failed because the entire market went south.  They were left standing when when our real estate bubble game of musical chairs ended.

QuoteNothing is happening in Jacksonville.  It's not 100% because we don't have a future streetcar or current streetcar/LRT; there are other reasons that we are failing.  I'm so mad that Jacksonville has over 11% unemployment when we should have below 10% given our economy and what we have going for it.  Our city is currently pathetic, no offense to it.  I know that we are the fire under the feet for our city leaders (meaning MetroJacksonville), and 99% of the time I am promoting and defending Jacksonville.  I have gone from 110% optimistic to 110% depressed about the situation in literally 2 weeks.  Mood swing?  hahah it could be!  Unfortunately, reality is setting in with me.  We have Mt. Everest to climb, and we don't have an oxygen tank to assist us.  I hope we don't die on the way.

No doubt, Jax missed the urban development explosion of the last decade.  Unfortnately, there may never be one like it again.  My view is a little different from yours because I'm not from Jax.  Upon moving here in 2003, I already knew and accepted that the city was about a decade behind its peers, in terms of its view and vision on the importance of urban and sustainable development.  With that in mind, all you can do is choose to accept things the way they are or work hard to change them and close the gap.  After making a personal decision to work hard to change our city, I believe that what is not happening in forms of infill construction right now is happening in the form of changing public policy regarding land use, transportation and the creation of a funding mechanism to change development patterns.  

QuoteI've read all those articles you posted, and they are great!  Our city should pay more attention.  Unfortunately, I get the gist that it half-heartedly does.  I see some progress, but progress that we make in Jax is worthless without some of the most vital components necessary.  All we need is one visionary.  Charlotte had one guy (who got demonized unfortunately for his role at BofA).  Most places just have 1-2-3 people who drive everything.  Jacksonville still has nobody, yet we have so much we could take advantage of.

We have lots of visionaries that have been working to turn things around.  One is this city's current planning director.  Without him in that position, there would be no talk of a mobility fee/plan and the city's land use regulations would not have been modified to now allow the type of development in your images that we missed out on the last decade.

QuoteHot neighborhoods?  With all of the press Avondale and Springfield have received recently, one would think they would just begin to explode!  Nope.  Fat chance.  I used to be proud of these neighborhoods, until I got really involved in other cities and started traveling beyond restaurants and tourist traps.  We hardly have anything super unique!  Press?  I think other organizations thought they could be a huge help to what they saw as potential.  Fat chance.  We have stuff going on, but come on.  Preservation of single family homes needs to take a back seat to new development until we get something going on.

We screwed LaVilla and Brooklyn too much.  They are too desolate to be attractive to real, quality development.  They are like deserts with trees and parking lots.  Not a lot of potential until we hit downtown, Springfield, San Marco, and Riverside.  Unfortunately Springfield, Downtown, and Riverside have way too much red tape.  The economy doesn't help, but how the hell is Jacksonville's economy so bad when we are the most diverse economy in Florida by far!

Imo, you're way off base on the potential of places you believe are far too gone to ever have the chance of becoming a hot neighborhood.  From experience, these are the exact types of places that tend to boom all of a sudden when the right public policy and investment is put in place.  Riverside/Avondale can't become the next up and coming hot neighborhood.  Its been hot and established for decades already.  Detroit's Brush Park, DC's Columbia Heights, Charlotte's South End and Tampa's Channel District are all examples of places that were worse off than Brooklyn and LaVilla when they made their comebacks.  All you need to do to fuel a comeback is to invest in public policy and infrastructure that makes it worthwhile for the private sector to believe in their long term stability.

Quote from: simms3 on January 23, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
Don't know anything about Elwood Hopkins.

Just remember that name.  In the upcoming years, we'll get to see his impact on urban Jacksonville.

I hadn't heard of him either - but that's not saying much.  How will we be hearing about him in Jacksonville?  As a developer? a policy maker?

QuoteThere is an increasing leadership vacuum in Jacksonville setting the stage for the next generation to step up.  So I say step up!

Completely agree!!!  This is a monumentally important time to be in this city in my very honest opinion.  If that leadership void is filled in with some of the people I interact with then Jacksonville will be moving forward in a very exciting way.  If that void is filled by others then we'll be seeing much of the same.

It is in fact, time to step up!

QuoteHey I heard that the "smart money" is on hogan because moran and mullanhey voters will cancel another out. maybe the best thing is for one of those two to drop out so they don't split the vote!

Hogan is going to have a message that reasonates well with the 'tea-party' type folk.  The 521's are going to benefit him well.  The same people behind the information-deflecting chaos of the last City Council budget public sessions are going to be a big factor next month, and that lends well to Hogan's chances.

I tend to believe that we will get more of the same if we elect someone who is going to govern to the least commmon denominator.   

However, I don't agree whatsoever with your ascertation that Moran and Mullaney are the same candidate.

I think Stephen's point RE:

QuoteI think his sole advantage over Audrey is the fact that he has a fully thought out set of policies and ideas that he is ready to execute on the second day he gets in office.

is pretty spot on.

QuoteIf there is any criticism of Audrey it is that she is also supported by some of the same clowns and pirates that have wreaked alot of damage on Jacksonville over the decades.

You know, I have to say... I spent all of Sunday on my bike doing a photo essay on potential kayak launch sites and blueways and I spent essentially the entire day biking around Riverside/Avondale/San Marco/Springfield/Ortega/Ortega Farms.  Just looking at the campaign signs on certain people's yards... I say that you could say that same thing about Mullaney as well.  That's not meant to be a knock on either, but in the interest of fairness...

That being said:

QuoteI think Audrey would move the whole city forward.  She has a unique mind and is informed by a unique experience.

This is why she will be getting my vote... and I have no doubt I will be proud of the day I cast that vote.

Audrey has vision and the ability to motivate people. We need that.

I think our next mayor should be a strong leader who has the ability to inspire people to care about things that can make this city a better place.

Look at the current list of candidates and hear them speak.  I urge you to vote for the person that inspires that kind of optimism in you.  Don't pay attention to the commercials from the 527's.

QuoteThere is an increasing leadership vacuum in Jacksonville setting the stage for the next generation to step up.  So I say step up!

Completely agree!!!  This is a monumentally important time to be in this city in my very honest opinion.  If that leadership void is filled in with some of the people I interact with then Jacksonville will be moving forward in a very exciting way.  If that void is filled by others then we'll be seeing much of the same.

I've been poking my nose around trying to find these future leaders.  Where are they??  Is there some sort of group that is helping to grow these leaders and facilitate in their interaction with people in the city.  If so, I want in.

I have one question, though.  I agree we have had devastating policies, as has almost every city.  You don't have to give me a history lesson when I have been reading this website for more than half a decade (whenever Metjax first came to be).

My question is I hear lots of demonizing of residents of San Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and Ortega when these are the core neighborhoods filled with the people who financially support the core and the core's cultural amenities.  Many if not most of the businessmen and women in these neigborhoods are the people who have kept their businesses downtown or in the core.  Why do we give Gate Parkway, Queens Harbor, Beaches, Mandarin, and Baymeadows people a break when they are taking away from the core?  I know people in those areas did not enact devastating policies from 1948 to now (which is actually not true), but in all fairness, many of those policies were projected to actually help the core (ironically).

IMO, whoever residents in San Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and Ortega support should be an indicator of who is A) good for business, and B) won't forget about the core.  I know that residents of Ortega are fed up with incentives and subsidies to help put in new sidewalks and parks way out in the burbs and in cookie cutter developments when there are no sidewalks, inadequate sewer, and parks only via private funds in Ortega.  I'm sure Riverside and San Marco residents are even more in tune with who might be a champion of the core.  If they are voting for Moran and Mullaney, these "clowns" may be on to something.

Where do the various candidates live?  That might say something about them. 

I know that Audrey Moran lives in Miramar and is a neighbor of Joanelle Molrain, who is a friend, and thinks highly of her. 

Joanelle, besides being an accomplished artist, has moved in the upper levels of business and politics in Jacksonville for decades.  She was on Senator Nelson's staff for his first term too and knows a lot about what an elected official needs to be like.  Her support of Audry Moran means a lot to me.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 24, 2011, 04:50:18 PM

I've been poking my nose around trying to find these future leaders.  Where are they?? 

Be one!

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 24, 2011, 04:50:18 PM
I've been poking my nose around trying to find these future leaders.  Where are they??  Is there some sort of group that is helping to grow these leaders and facilitate in their interaction with people in the city.  If so, I want in.

I am going to respond assuming that you are coming from the perspective of wanting to be a future leader.  If I got that backwards (meaning that you want to train future leaders), please forgive me.

It's actually pretty easy to get involved.  Most neighborhoods have a neighborhood association, and most of those have a board.  If you contact the one that you live in - or near - I feel pretty certain they would be happy to plug you in.  The board positions may be filled, but you could serve on a committee and then eventually move into a board position.  From there you learn about more things that interest you and you get involved in those.  And it just grows as you grow.  I know at SMPS we are always on the lookout for more people to bring into the mix.  Particularly ones who can add to our diversity and bring a new perspective.

It doesn't have to be a neighborhood association either.  There are hundreds of non-profit organizations in Jacksonville that are in need of motivated, talented people.