Metro Jacksonville

Courthouse Asphalt or Green Space: The Choice Is Yours?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1154272409_pqCju-M.jpg)

A debate of what to do with the remaining new Duval County Courthouse property in LaVilla is brewing.  One camp would like to see six lanes of asphalt and another believes a public park is the right answer.  So what will it be Jacksonville?

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-courthouse-asphalt-or-green-space-the-choice-is-yours

Hey so what is the cost difference between a road or a park space? I like the park idea much better but all those pavers and palms and weekly maintenance may add up you know. I mean isn't city only mowing parks every two weeks now b because it doesnt have the money? But you know they really could probably make it up in paid parking because they cant be dropped off on front. But you know I love the park design its nice!

Obviously nobody is using Monroe Street now as a way through the area and people who did have found a new way in.  I used to drive that way and now go up to Church Street where there is usually plenty of parking available behind the City Hall.  Or I take the Skyway downtown.  Which brings up another question.  The Hemming Plaza Skyway station is 2 blocks away from the new courthouse.  I would be in favor of them taking it one step further and closing Monroe entirely between Broad Street and Hogan Street and making the portion of Monroe between the courthouse and Hogan a pedestrian-only route.  That would serve to tie the city functions in the St James and Ed Ball buildings more directly to the courthouse.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2exrg1v.jpg)

Monroe street exit from 95N is not a waste. for once, it might be forethought?
Debate? really?
GREENSPACE!
art in public places!
a garden?
some shade?
some lawn?
a fountain or 30?
outdoor cafe carts?/a.k.a. roach coaches lol
but oh hell no  no useless road.
depending on the caliber of our security and safety systems implemented with any streetcar tracks we could see an emerald necklace connection along the face of the atrium? 

I agree with JEDC, s/b public green space with no through ROW for Monroe.

If traffic throughput was desirable, then they should have used an urban type design and gone "up" to stay within their 1 square block.  This design was prioritized around appearance as opposed to good urban space use. So if that is the case, improve the appearance further by creating a public green space in front.

It would interesting to see where JTA was planning on putting their new bus stops to service the complex. Anyone like to wager it was on Monroe, right in front? Perhaps instead of just a pedestrian boulevard, create a platform extension from the Skyway Hemming Station similar to what Minneapolis does.

Not to get too snarky, but perhaps we can use the new green space for the Hemming Plaza folk to hang out. More people to panhandle and harass.

I do think it will lead to some positive redevelopment in that area, as court related professions attempt to relocate closer to the action with all of the side benefits it brings. But I am still puzzled where this location fits in an overall master city plan?

tunnels?

Quote from: spuwho on January 12, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
I do think it will lead to some positive redevelopment in that area, as court related professions attempt to relocate closer to the action with all of the side benefits it brings. But I am still puzzled where this location fits in an overall master city plan?

From my knowledge, there is no overall master plan for this area that povides a clue to a future vision for public owned properties.  This is the closest thing we have:

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville+Economic+Development+Commission/Downtown+Development/Downtown+Maste.htm

Quote from: letters and numbers on January 12, 2011, 06:50:54 AM
Hey so what is the cost difference between a road or a park space?

According to FDOT Roadway construction cost estimates, the new construction of an urban 2-lane road with 5' sidewalks, curb and gutters tends to average around $12 million/mile.  This means reconstructing this 0.15 mile stretch of Monroe Street could cost taxpayers as much as $1.8 - 2 million.  

QuoteI like the park idea much better but all those pavers and palms and weekly maintenance may add up you know. I mean isn't city only mowing parks every two weeks now b because it doesnt have the money? But you know they really could probably make it up in paid parking because they cant be dropped off on front. But you know I love the park design its nice!

The cost of a well designed park space could vary, depending on the amenities included.  The park sketch in the JEDC power point is just that, a sketch.  Imo, you could make a pretty nice space by putting in plain jane sidewalks and cheaper shade trees.  The money saved by not putting in the palms and pavers could go to the cost that would be associated with including better amenities such as fountains, seating and retail kiosks.

I am all for the public space.  Look at city hall in Philly as a great example. 

The rebuild Monroe Street option is just silly.  Why rebuild a street for cars, just for the sake of rebuilding a street?  Eliminate the extra asphalt by returning the streets around the site to two-way traffic.  As for maintaining a grid, when did we come to the conclusion that every block in a grid has to accommodate vehicular traffic?  Monroe Street wasn't laid out for cars.  I think we do ourselves a huge disservice when we don't look at multimodal transportation opportunities within our urban core, especially downtown.  Eventually, the remaining segments of Monroe will have to be repaved.  Why not remove a lane and convert it for bicycle traffic, with a multiuse path for pedestrians and cyclist going through the green space?

Public Space Thumbs up!!! Whenever I am up in Detroit they have to great public space and green areas that really shine.

Quote from: spuwho on January 12, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
It would interesting to see where JTA was planning on putting their new bus stops to service the complex. Anyone like to wager it was on Monroe, right in front?

The proposed BRT station will be a block to the north at Broad & Duval.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/945611205_T6gGy-600x10000.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-downtown-bus-rapid-transit-project-moving-forward

I'd suggest moving the station south and integrating it into the green space.  The more uses you can throw into a well design public space, the better chance it will become an every day center of activity (something the Northbank really lacks right now).

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 08:30:06 AM
From my knowledge, there is no overall master plan for this area that povides a clue to a future vision for public owned properties.

This speaks to my greatest concern for the upcoming election.  Our proven inability to implement a plan.  We desperately need someone who is strong enough to handle the objectors when the time comes to put the plans into action.

guess what else the Pappas design shows....Pearl St. closed

I would argue it is far more important for "the grid" to keep Pearl open then Monroe

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 08:56:04 AM
Why not remove a lane and convert it for bicycle traffic, with a multiuse path for pedestrians and cyclist going through the green space?

Who is up for a design session next week to layout this plan and present it to JEDC, Council and whoever else will listen?  I suggest Tuesday during lunch.

In looking at the BRT phase one plan that you posted, is it just me or does this plan almost entirely duplicate the route of the Skyway on the southbank?

Yes, it duplicates the skyway.  We raised a big fuss over that along with the Adams Street bus mall idea they had a couple of years ago.  We were successful in eliminating the bus mall.  I guess you win some and you lose some.

It would be great to rebuild this area as green space. Is there someone to whom we can make our opinions known on this matter? Is the city seriously considering not rebuilding Monroe street?

Looking at the drawings, it seems absurd to rebuild a street that will be a few feet from another street connecting the same two cross streets. But knowing Jacksonville, it seems like suggestions to do something as "revolutionary" as installing green space in front of the courthouse would be met with a dismissive wave of the hand.

Six lanes of traffic there is insane. That's like throwing the Eastern stretch of beach boulevard into the middle of the urban core

Nixing Monroe is a no-brainer. 

I like the plaza idea, and I love Doug's idea about closing Monroe between Pearl and Hogan.  What I would add to this is that the plaza would include space for 2-3 retail tenants.  Just small free standing venues, 1,000 to 2,000 square feet max.  It's been done before, why not here?  Coffee shops, cafes, news stands, whatever. That would be a big draw for downtown workers to be able to eat their lunch outdoors on a beautifully designed plaza with shade trees around and the sound of running water and playing children in the background.

(takes of extreme optimist glasses) Of course we already have a downtown plaza with shade trees, running water, and nearby eateries.  It is under utilized and overrun with bums.  For this plaza to reach its full potential, we would need to address the issues of bums in public spaces downtown. 

There's great potential for this space, but I expect it to be at least partially wasted.

This is a fancy pants monument that will have an upscale greenspace, manicured just like the White House lawn and just as accessible to the public - Hah!

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 09:41:43 AM
Yes, it duplicates the skyway.  We raised a big fuss over that along with the Adams Street bus mall idea they had a couple of years ago.  We were successful in eliminating the bus mall.  I guess you win some and you lose some.

Have they broken ground on it yet?  I don't mind leading a new fight against it as I promote the San Marco by Design project and the extension of the Skyway to Lasalle and Atlantic.

I actually have a different view of the bums aka homeless downtown. The homeless frequent downtown because there is nothing there! If DT were full of people, you would barely see them. Most homeless are ashamed to be seen by the working class. Dont get me wrong, there will always be the brave ones who will stick around regardless. But I think the more our DT grows, the more the homeless will migrate to other places.

So if the JEDC is against the road, then is City Council against the road as well?

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 12, 2011, 10:26:23 AM
I like the plaza idea, and I love Doug's idea about closing Monroe between Pearl and Hogan.  What I would add to this is that the plaza would include space for 2-3 retail tenants.  Just small free standing venues, 1,000 to 2,000 square feet max.  It's been done before, why not here?  Coffee shops, cafes, news stands, whatever. That would be a big draw for downtown workers to be able to eat their lunch outdoors on a beautifully designed plaza with shade trees around and the sound of running water and playing children in the background.

Definitely agree!

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594998232_DsNbd-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594988720_uPcgq-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968212129_s7ekF-M.jpg)

Active uses in public spaces such as those in the images shown above also help with the vagrancy issue.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 12, 2011, 10:32:33 AM
Have they broken ground on it yet?  I don't mind leading a new fight against it as I promote the San Marco by Design project and the extension of the Skyway to Lasalle and Atlantic.

No, but its pretty far along in design now.

Quote from: Bativac on January 12, 2011, 09:51:15 AM
It would be great to rebuild this area as green space. Is there someone to whom we can make our opinions known on this matter? Is the city seriously considering not rebuilding Monroe street?

Absolutely we can make our opinions known.  And the more of a collective effort that it is, the more seriously we will be taken.

Let's get together next week and discuss it further.  I don't know if the MJ group already has an established meeting place for this type of stuff or not.  If not, I can get us some space at South Jax City Hall in the conference room.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 10:42:59 AM
No, but its pretty far along in design now.

Are they really going to have dedicated bus lanes on Riverplace?  How much does this work against the concept of extending the skyway?  I fear that they will want to extend the BRT along that route instead (Kings to Lasalle to Atlantic).  It makes my blood boil that they are cramming this plan down everyone's throat when I know very few who are in favor (other than JTA of course).

Which brings another question - who other than JTA and their consultants is in support of BRT?

  

Quote from: dougskiles on January 12, 2011, 10:50:16 AM
Are they really going to have dedicated bus lanes on Riverplace?

Yes.  Not because its needed.  Like Blanding, moreso because the ROW is there.  

QuoteHow much does this work against the concept of extending the skyway?  I fear that they will want to extend the BRT along that route instead (Kings to Lasalle to Atlantic).

Yes, BRT will go down Kings.  That's the only logical way to get it to Philips Highway from Kings Avenue Station.  Nevertheless, I don't think it works against extending the skyway into San Marco.  A skyway extension would provide a grade separated crossing over the FEC and directly tie in Hendricks and San Marco Square with Downtown.  Coordinated properly with adjacent land owners and both of those areas could see great infill development and adaptive reuse take place.  Those are benefits that BRT down Kings will not deliver.

QuoteIt makes my blood boil that they are cramming this plan down everyone's throat when I know very few who are in favor (other than JTA of course).

Which brings another question - who other than JTA and their consultants is in support of BRT?

Yes, its being forced down everyone's throats.  In general, I support the concept when implemented properly.  I'm just not crazy about the path JTA has taken in this local version.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
 

Quote from: dougskiles on January 12, 2011, 10:50:16 AM
Are they really going to have dedicated bus lanes on Riverplace?

Yes.  Not because its needed.  Like Blanding, moreso because the ROW is there.  

What a shame.  On-street parking and bike lane would be a significantly better use.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/STREETCAR-COURTHOUSE2.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Awesome!  Certainly would be less expensive than an urban street.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/COURTHOUSE-STREETCAR3.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Is it just me or is it silly that we're even having to debate this?  I'm definitely ALL FOR a public plaza, but I would have been somewhat more at ease if there had been an official plan all along, even if it called for closing roads and building new roads etc.  It's so silly, borderline juvenile, that here we are just free floating ideas around when there should have been a more rigid plan.

I also think the whole courthouse situation is so bad that it's funny.  My mom called me the other day and brought this up, saying that they don't know what to do with the front of the courthouse (road or plaza).  She usually is not fully up to speed on these things, so i thought it was cool she even knew there was a debate going on.

What did I have to say about it?  Well, first of all, it's funny that we picked a design that covered 7 city blocks in the first place.  The design was "beautifulish" for its 7 city blocks, but it was surprising we didn't pick the local team.  Then we found out it exceeded the budget by like $50 million, which was about $195 million in the first place.  Then we cancelled it, and didn't go back to any of the other competing designs, one of which was by our local firm.  We waited a million years as real estate and construction prices skyrocketed, then at the worst possible moment we literally had a 4 year old draw the current courthouse, covering 4 city blocks, still, and well over $150 million over the original budget.  No planning there.

This has got to be one of the worst all time city mistakes in the country.  Literally, if we had just stuck with an original plan, city blocks would have been covered, but it would have cost us taxpayers less, would have been much easier on the eyes, and we could have always figured out how to reroute cars and work in public space (oh wait, all the original plans DID call for public space, which is part of the reason they took up so much space).

I can't believe that we are literally "building" this ugly thing as we go along and roads and greenspace have become an afterthought.

And for me the trains in front of the courthouse are not working for some reason.  I would rather have some greenspace or a Philly City Hall type road.

Retail kiosks may be expensive to build and the city may have a hard time filling them.  I would be in favor of something less intrusive, say dedicated spots for transient vendors to pay some type of permitting fee to use.  Less cost to build, less rent for a small business, and it would be something that offers way more flexibility.

You can always keep it simple.  Everything doesn't have to be brick and mortar.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Toronto-June-2007/P1010730/463389806_Wvtx4-M.jpg)

Don't know if Jax would allow this, but on some Toronto streets, they allow temporary vendors to park next to public spaces.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Toronto-June-2007/P1010637/463389127_3YdLe-M.jpg)

Quote from: fieldafm on January 12, 2011, 11:49:58 AM
Retail kiosks may be expensive to build and the city may have a hard time filling them.  I would be in favor of something less intrusive, say dedicated spots for transient vendors to pay some type of permitting fee to use.  Less cost to build, less rent for a small business, and it would be something that offers way more flexibility.

I was thinking about this.  What if the city just allowed a private company to lease the space for free for the first 5 years if they would build their own facility and pay for upkeep.  Kind of like the Landing, minus the family feuds.  I'm no sure how profitable it would be for a company, but you never know.  Otherwise I like the transient vendor idea.  I saw some pretty large and sophisticated looking taco trucks in Denver when I was there.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 11:57:09 AM
You can always keep it simple.  Everything doesn't have to be brick and mortar.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Toronto-June-2007/P1010730/463389806_Wvtx4-M.jpg)

Was thinking of dedicated space with some sort of power/water hookups for something like that

of this

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PmolxCzK4n4/TJgUBboKVUI/AAAAAAAAB54/YB9NEnqp3uc/s1600/airstream+2.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2011, 11:57:09 AM
Don't know if Jax would allow this, but on some Toronto streets, they allow temporary vendors to park next to public spaces.

I don't have any faith that Jacksonville would allow anything like this. I have a vision of guys with hot dog carts (maybe). Which would be okay by me but I have a terrible feeling that the city is going to allow Monroe St to be rebuilt and that the people who would be using Monroe St would be thankful some "useless park" wasn't built in its place.

Plus I imagine the area around Monroe St will be filled with either pavers or concrete. Maybe some planters and maybe some benches. Jacksonville police cars will park on the paved area and make sure nobody is loitering or trying to buy a hot dog or anything.

Yeah, I'm being negative. A friend of mine who grew up here but now lives in Greenville, SC was visiting last week. We went downtown and left after half an hour or so. "Just like I remembered it" he commented.

Quoteand a public art conception would be great

x500!

JTA could get on the boat as well and sponsor permanent art installations at the Skyway stations... something more prominent than the temporary deals at 'Art Ride'

What, if anything, is planned for the empty block that contained the old Southern Bell building [Pearl-Monroe-Julia-Adams]?

That space could be combined with the courthouse 'front lawn' to make something similiar to Nashville's courthouse square.

Creating  a pedestrian mall out of Monroe is not a good idea.  Pedestrian Malls rarely work, and never do in this type of environment.  Ask Raleigh about it's Fayetteville Street Mall.

My guess is that the city council approves JEDC's plan but the 'front lawn' is simply landscaped with no active use.  Main Street Pocket Park part deux.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/COURTHOUSE-POND.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: fieldafm on January 12, 2011, 12:18:25 PM

Quoteand a public art conception would be great

x500!

JTA could get on the boat as well and sponsor permanent art installations at the Skyway stations... something more prominent than the temporary deals at 'Art Ride'

Exactly.  Those things look like something off of the death star.  Either public art or just a splash of color would really help the skyway stations.  

In a semi related note, anybody know anything about the 'entrance monuments' that should be on either end of The Shoppes of Avondale?  They were in the plans, but they haven't been put up.  San Marco, for example, has the tower on the north end and the sign on the south.

^^maybe they are working on that and ArtWalk was just a first step.

back to the courthouse issue. Who is proposing this six-lane road....is it coming from the design team, Mayor's office, Public works or traffic engineering? Hopefully Ron Barton can squash this insane idea!

C'mon now, we all know the city's priority has always been roads for cars; and if they have their way, we will get the street and some grotesque afterthought of a lawn. Pedestrians and their needs will continue to be ignored, unless we demand a quality public square.

I must say that I am against eateries in that space and here's why. In government buildings there is a program which allows blind vendors to operate a snack bar, or in some cases, there are whole cafeterias. Any eatery would take business away from those vendors therefore, I can not support that part of the idea.

And instead of surface parking lots to the south and west, there should be skyscrapers, more skyscrapers, lots more skyscrapers!

Ock I like the streetcar one better!

Quote from: simms3 on January 12, 2011, 11:41:14 AM
Is it just me or is it silly that we're even having to debate this?  I'm definitely ALL FOR a public plaza, but I would have been somewhat more at ease if there had been an official plan all along, even if it called for closing roads and building new roads etc.  It's so silly, borderline juvenile, that here we are just free floating ideas around when there should have been a more rigid plan.

I also think the whole courthouse situation is so bad that it's funny.  My mom called me the other day and brought this up, saying that they don't know what to do with the front of the courthouse (road or plaza).  She usually is not fully up to speed on these things, so i thought it was cool she even knew there was a debate going on.

What did I have to say about it?  Well, first of all, it's funny that we picked a design that covered 7 city blocks in the first place.  The design was "beautifulish" for its 7 city blocks, but it was surprising we didn't pick the local team.  Then we found out it exceeded the budget by like $50 million, which was about $195 million in the first place.  Then we cancelled it, and didn't go back to any of the other competing designs, one of which was by our local firm.  We waited a million years as real estate and construction prices skyrocketed, then at the worst possible moment we literally had a 4 year old draw the current courthouse, covering 4 city blocks, still, and well over $150 million over the original budget.  No planning there.

This has got to be one of the worst all time city mistakes in the country.  Literally, if we had just stuck with an original plan, city blocks would have been covered, but it would have cost us taxpayers less, would have been much easier on the eyes, and we could have always figured out how to reroute cars and work in public space (oh wait, all the original plans DID call for public space, which is part of the reason they took up so much space).

I can't believe that we are literally "building" this ugly thing as we go along and roads and greenspace have become an afterthought.

Simms, you hit the nail on the head.  As I have stated repeatedly, this courthouse should have been an urban high rise like the Feds built for less than 1/4 the price.  7 blocks is "stupid is as stupid does" Forest Gump planning and our City leaders should be vilified for approving this design that will kill quality urban planning for a big chunk of downtown for generations.  I said before that Peyton will be more remembered for this incredibly poor (and ugly!) choice of designs than for the cost overruns of the building and it will become his biggest folly.  Unfortunately, he follows a long series of City decision makers that manage to make all the wrong choices at the many road forks they are presented with when it comes to downtown projects.  It all adds up to the life-supported downtown we have today.

That we are just now trying to figure out what to do with a major downtown street, once designated as the "gateway" to downtown by another failed City project, La Villa, shows BOTH how little competent thought and planning went into this whole fiasco AND highlights the emptiness of the "justification" for the La Villa project for which, clearly, we see, no one was really committed to over the long haul.  It's more disposable City visions and promises.  And, we wonder why suburbanites are reluctant supporters of downtown investments?

If the grid system was a priority, this courthouse design should not have been chosen.  Plain and simple.  If the grid system is not a priority, then abandoning the Monroe Street connection should not be a problem.  Plain and simple.  Since the design already is done, eliminating the extension is a no-brainer at this point.  Two downtown streets side by side and only a few feet apart, one being a "long way around" is foolish and will just further highlight the idiot designers planning our City projects.  The taxpayers should demand these "professionals"  refund their fees and pay damages to cover the mitigation of their "mistakes" and "professional ineptitude".

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one as well.  Forgetting to choose a wall color in a judge's private quarters is an oversight.  Forgetting/ignoring a road that will define the overall look of the project?????  I've done quite a few build/design (yeah, I meant it that way) projects, but can't grasp that they left this 'issue' hangin' out in the wind.

Quote from: fsujax on January 12, 2011, 01:46:45 PM
Ock I like the streetcar one better!

Actually it was Mr. Dare that suggested a uranium mine...

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteIn a semi related note, anybody know anything about the 'entrance monuments' that should be on either end of The Shoppes of Avondale?  They were in the plans, but they haven't been put up.  San Marco, for example, has the tower on the north end and the sign on the south.

I've been wondering that same thing, since the 'completion' of the town center improvements.  Also, where is the extra streetside parking along St Johns towards Boone Park?

RAP has a social on Sunday @ Biscottis.  I plan on asking these questions then.

I think the obvious Jacksonville solution is a Monroe Street Flyover.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1154940433_Z7d4w-M.jpg)

Lunican dont give them any ideas like that! it might just happen.

Careful Lunican.  Don't give them any ideas.

It seems as if JEDC has woken up here lately.  Once we get some new leadership in, there may be a dramatic change ahead for the "Bold New City of the South" LOL

We could go with a stocade

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4q-_e7WR52Rui4-B_TwKE0zek4nGtwjfgGiIj0vEmzKaADDJfYQ)

Or we could go with a Gallows

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzIB-9WeIcBmxPePIQagreHlmtaeERXDNiV4CAgoab9bfBopecsg)

Or a Jacksonville favorite surface parking

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAUxboRykOuNh_lhU_rVLi0u9ss3cQEFx-kUaQCnY4qu7pvrE4)

LOL you guys are too much. I like the grass street car design, but we know Jax.

To me the proposed greenspace looks like an afterthought lawn. Did anyone else notice that example greenspace ignores pedestrians coming from Monroe Street? If you're coming from Monroe either you cut across the lawn or go all the way around the sidewalk on the side to the front entryway. And I agree  that designing the space for active uses is definitely a better way to go.

Can't think of a funny caption because I think the picture speaks for itself...

(http://i54.tinypic.com/111rzgg.jpg)

I cant get over my disgust of this monument of overspending.

Ill be waiting for the picture feature of all the mahogany paneling and brass courtrooms, offices and judge chambers..oh wait those are secret and above the law.. I forgot.
My prediction is they will compromise on 4 lanes. :P

I agree Ernest! I bet practically nothing is being recycled from the old courthouse, I am guessing that is all the taxpayer's money in the dump picture '-)

That being said, greenspace, the building itself has done enough to make the entire area ugly, I only hope a good side effect of this monstrosity and homage to the 80's is some restoration of the few remaining buildings and unique new construction for the vast sea of vacant lots and buildings around this place.

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 13, 2011, 08:14:47 AM
I agree Ernest! I bet practically nothing is being recycled from the old courthouse, I am guessing that is all the taxpayer's money in the dump picture '-)

That being said, greenspace, the building itself has done enough to make the entire area ugly, I only hope a good side effect of this monstrosity and homage to the 80's is some restoration of the few remaining buildings and unique new construction for the vast sea of vacant lots and buildings around this place.

It costs more to re-use/recycle/refurbish than it does to provide new.   

more accurately, not always true

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2011, 09:14:35 AM

then since the originaal statement was a broad absolute, it is untrue.

Replacement value of the materials is generally never cheaper than reusing.

You can make a replica of the English crown for a lot less money if you use brass and glass jewels, but its not the same thing.

??????

We're not talking about one-of-a-kind royal crowns. 

I'll bite - what part of the courthouse do you think we can re-use cheaper than bring in new?

Chairs, desks, file cabinets, shelving lights, tables, signs, perhaps even bathroom fixtures such as doors sinks paper towel holders etc.  Ever price any of this stuff?

Maybe once or twice.

Don't you think that the actual 'office' people who work there will be bringing some of that stuff over - mostly the file cabs and chairs.  The other stuff will be recycled, just not into the new courthouse - it will go to discount office supply chains, goodwill, etc...

But the actual cost of removing a door, storing a door, refinishing a door and re-installing a door is a lot more than just buying a new one.  What about the frame the old door was in?  What about the door hardware?

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2011, 09:50:09 AM
This is honestly the first time ive ever heard the quarrying, cutting, transporting, and polishing marble was cheaper than simply removing from one building and installing in the next.  Who knew?

Lets see.....  You have to pay a professional to un-install the marble, let's hope he doesn't break any of it, because we're going to have a really difficult time matching it.  We're going to have to store that marble somewhere until it's time to be re-installed.  Oh yeah, the chipping and pitting that occurred over the last decade, we're going to need to polish that out.  By the way, the new dimensions aren't quite the same as the old ones.  We're going to have to re-shape the marble anyhow.  Welp, I guess it's time to install, suppose I have to pay someone to do that to. 

Stephen you just paid about 4x what you would have to just have picked a color and installed new marble, but hey, who knew.

I did not realize they needed new chairs and stuff who would of thought???!! I also did not realize the old courthouse was already rented/sold/resused that is awesome news and I guess would account for needing storage space. Who knew? And I am pretty sure any new marble or doors would not need to be cut to size, polished/stained whatever... it TOTALLY makes sense to buy all new, as we know NEW is always better because craftsman ship and product has only improved. For instance I know LOTS of investors that have taken out all the old ugly tigerwood in old houses and sent it to the dump, so what you can't get tigerwood anymore, or whole tree 20 ft oak beams they are overrated!!!

nobody said anything about quality of craftmanship....but let's be real....how often does a complete house renovation/restoration come in cheaper than building new?

again..quality of materials and workmanship aside.

but yes, go buy a new solid wood door and install.....then try and take an old wood door, remove it, refinish it, and move to new location....I'm willing to bet new is still cheaper most of the time.

But I thought space and quality was two of the biggest reasons for building this thing, for the cost of this monster? If not then they could of stayed where they were no?

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 13, 2011, 10:27:55 AM
But I thought space and quality was two of the biggest reasons for building this thing, for the cost of this monster? If not then they could of stayed where they were no?

sure...if they wanted to do a complete renovation (clean out the asbestos and cush)...and then add floors to get twice as much space....or build on the parking lot (which would mean new pilings into the water).

I'm referring to identical materials - workmanship is ygwypf - and yes, it's cheaper to buy new rather than reinstall.

If you buy a 3'-0" x 8'-0" door, Maple, Stained Finish, Installed - around $1,000-$1,200.

I have to order it, finish it, ship it, install it.

If you want me to refinish your existing door:

I have to un-install it, ship it to my shop, un-do all of the damage that it incurred while in use, finish it, store it until you're ready for it, ship it, install it.

4 steps that I wouldn't have to deal with if you just got over yourself and ordered a new door.  You're price for the 'old' door that looks like new is about $3,000.


edit:  in the case above, the materials and workmanship would be the same in both cases.  Only the cost is different.  And BTW - I would make more money by selling you a new door.

Westsider is right.  In the construction industry, new is typically cheaper because of the reduced labor.  Labor costs in some types of construction can exceed materials costs.  Now, if your talking about a jack-of-all-trades renovating his own house/buisness with used materials then yes, it would/could be cheaper than just buying new.

The less time the granite installers are on site, the cheaper their costs will be.  Regardless of where the granite comes from, new or old.

Space aside, doesn't the asbestos have to be addressed anyway? I have heard about (in the news) some pretty sumptuous office and court rooms for the judges which I do not think adds to productivity (or we would not have cubes in office buildings) nor does lady justice really care.

As to reuse costs, you cannot even compare old wood with new wood so it is not the "same wood". Also what is the cost to get rid of the old stuff? If it is going somewhere there is still a removal cost, and if it is going to the dump there is an additional cost. What about the cost to our environment? Or does that matter since it is quicker, easier, and cheaper to just do it all new?


****Edited as an apology to my poor spelling and multitasking inability!

well no Stephen...but I have renovated one house and am making renovations to another right now.

Let's settle this now.  Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.... some of the time.  These decisions depend on the facts and circumstance at hand and the value the owner places on quality, materials, craftsmanship, historic value, convenience, meeting modern standards versus living with older ones, etc.  As they say, one man's trash is another's gold.  One shoe size does not fit all.  The only rule is there is no rule.  Enough of the cliches. You get the point.  ;D

So about that greenspace/public art/vendor access at the new courthouse....

Well let's hope it is the green space, because at this rate the one big loser, our environment as too many people live in a throwaway world.

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 13, 2011, 12:15:58 PM
Well let's hope it is the green space, because at this rate the one big loser, our environment as too many people live in a throwaway world.

I'll post more on this in a different thread, because that seems to be the direction this one went.  But for all of you who are diligent with your recycling and 'green' building, there is a lot out there that appears to be well and good, but in the end hurts more than it helps.   The Cost of Going Green, What has LEED Done for You?

I ran across this quote today in an article about downtown redevelopment from 1998.  I wonder what caused Ted Pappas to change his position?

Today

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1153754340_DvuwX-M.jpg)

From 1998 FTU article

QuoteDowntown needs a swath of parkland that would attract development along its borders in the same way that the St. Johns River does.

Ted Pappas, Architect - FTU Talk of Downtown article 11/13/98

I remeber this.

Hey Stephen, that new stepped park on Main that Peyton spent millions to tear down a bunch of dense buildings to put in has certainly succeeded in attracting a lot of panhandlers, hasn't it? I guess in a way that counts as bringing people in! Lol!

I remember the plan, rather, and how to spell remember.....

Traveling on Monroe Street going east and after crossing Broad Street you would arrive at the front door of the New County Courthouse, the old historic US Post Office building, the Federal Courthouse Plaza, Hemming Civic Plaza with City Hall at the north end of the plaza, and the new library. Closing Monroe Street, this condition would not be possible.
Adams Street (one way west) currently has two traffic lanes and one parking lane. Monroe Street (if opened as I proposed) would have two lanes with an island between it and Adams Street.

If you were traveling from the parking garage to the courthouse you would cross two lanes of traffic on Adams Street arrive at an island and cross two lanes(or one if preferred) traffic lane of Monroe Street. On the north side would be the new courthouse plaza and green.

Monroe Street in the umbilical cord that ties our civic buildings together. Monroe Street gives access to these buildings.   

Only if you're traveling by car, particularly on Monroe Street.  With that said, Monroe isn't close to being downtown's main east/west artery for vehicular travel.  Future plans for the area also call for many of these streets to be converted back into two-way traffic, meaning traffic patterns will change (they've actually already changed since Monroe's closing years ago). 

Considering the downtown environment should be designed for human scale, automobile accessibility should not take precedence over pedestrian connectivity and safety.  A design that has pedestrians crossing six lanes of roadway in the core of downtown certainly puts automobile accessibility over pedestrian safety and comfort.  Like you've stated, I see no reason that Monroe Street can't be an umbilical cord that ties a few public structures together.  However, that umbilical cord does not have to be autocentric.  Thus, a sidewalk/bikeway/multiuse path alignment that ties the ends of Monroe Street together should be considered "keeping the grid in tact".

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570840621_HQ2zr-M.jpg)
We have more in common with Nashville than we can imagine.  Take a look at the street grid around Nashville's public square.  Also, take note of the civic lawn and the design to accommodate east/west pedestrian movement.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/565451520_37DAF-M.jpg)
Here is a look at that walk and civic lawn.  Grid maintained.  Why not Jacksonville?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/565451994_q4usv-M.jpg)

Yesterday after visiting Magnet Mania with my family, we drove toward the courthouse from the south (on Clay Street).  At the corner of Houston & Clay St (about 1 block away) we stopped and I explained to them the proposal for adding another street between Adams and the front of the courthouse.  Everyone started laughing.  Seriously.  Even Adams Street is too close to the courthouse for the scale of it, in my opinion.

Ted, we've worked together on several projects before and I respect your work, but I have to disagree pretty heartily with you on this one.  The buildings you described are enough of a destination that we don't need to promote automobile access to get there.  Hopefully the goal will be to create an environment that is pedestrian friendly so that the local businesses supporting the courthouse can thrive.  With the better use of our transit systems, we can get people into the area much more efficiently than with another road - we have plenty of those already.

Doug,
I am not for closing any roads in the downtown area.  Look at South bank.  All the roads that once lead to the river form San Marco have been closed for the big riverfront projects.
They were even trying to close Laura Street adjacent to the river for a parking garage.

I was quoted earlier about my statement in 1989 about a "swath of land". I had proposed a central park bounded on the north by  Duval Street and the South by Monroe Street extending from Market Street on the east to Jefferson Street (engaging Hemming Plaza to the west. There would be two levels of parking under the park (similar to Union Square in San Fransisco) from Market Street to Main Street.
I still support a major green space in the town core. No streets were proposed to be closed.  I have a model in my office that illustrates this. Green space need not violate the main street fabric of the city.

One more thing. 
I had met with the mayor several months ago suggesting that the City purchase the block bounded by Adams Street on the North, Broad Street on the West, Forsyth on the South and Clay Street on the east. This block is directly west of the Courthouse parking garage. 
I suggested this block be developed as a green space that would give presence to the new courthouse if you were coming from Riverside or Southside heading north on Broad Street.  Also if you were heading east on Forsyth.

This block:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Cunningham-Furniture-Company/P1440410/1165532340_eA99U-M.jpg)

What would happen with the remaining buildings on all of the blocks where green space should be considered?

they would be demolished naturally.  for no reason whatsoever except an architect thinks that downtown needs another completely bildingless block

Quote from: Ted Pappas on January 23, 2011, 07:25:47 PM
I am not for closing any roads in the downtown area. 

I am not either.  But that decision was made long ago when Clay and Monroe were closed to build the enormous courthouse.  A high rise would have been a much better fit for downtown and would have added to the skyline (similar to the Federal Courthouse).  But to build a road immediately next to an existing road just doesn't make sense to me.  Plus, there is very little parking available on Monroe Street as you continue east.  When I drive, I park on either Adams Street or Church Street and walk.  I prefer to take the Skyway from San Marco.

If it is that important for us to maintain a straight shot from I-95 into the core of downtown, then it makes more sense to me to extend the exit ramp from I-95 to Duval Street.  It would be about half as much road construction.

I completely agree with you on the damage done in the Southbank area that took away the view of the river.

It can't be that important. We already have direct DT ramps to Forsyth and Union Streets. If we two-way a couple of one-way streets in the area, we should be fine and we'll save a ton of money (no road construction costs).

How do you get from the Monroe Street Ramp to Duval Street.  Duval Street is two lanes wide.  Would you buy additional right-away from  Duval Street.

You can have green space and a two lane drive around the courthouse (Monroe Street).
The original intent was to alway keep Monroe Street open.  Otherwise, why would they have built the Monroe Street Ramp to begin with.

By the way, the Skyway Express cost $100,000,000 per mile back then. Not really a good investment for the ridership they have.  The Skyway is the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville.  Most of the businesses  that are along it (Hogan Street and Bay Street have been shut down.

We had a great opportunity to have a wonderful street (Hogan) all the way from Union Street to the river.  Now we have an elevated concrete monstrosity. We now have Laura Street, but you cannot see to the river because guess what: they closed the street for the Jacksonville Landing. How much money has the City of Jacksonville pumped into that project for the last decades.

Duval, like most of DT's streets, has an ROW width between 60 and 70 feet.  However, I do agree that it would be a waste of money extending a ramp to Duval.  

If I had to pick the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville, it would be a battle between:

1) Demolition of historic urban building fabric

2) Making automobile movement a higher priority than pedestrian movement.

3) Ripping apart the economic sustaining connectivity of the railroad and maritime industries from the downtown core.  

The uncompleted skyway is peanuts compared to the three items above in terms of damage and costs on the urban landscape.  Its been all downhill since these actions have taken place and things won't really change until we pay a lot more attention to the concepts of urban connectivity and clustering complementing uses within a compact setting.

I guess we just disagree then.  I actually don't see the need to do anything, as Lakelander pointed out.  Just leave it alone.  Once you get to the courthouse area you have pretty much arrived in downtown so there isn't really a need for an express route through the area.

With regard to the Skyway, the reason it doesn't work properly now is because it was never finished.  If you have time, check out this article:

Quotehttp://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-re-evaluating-the-skyway

An even bigger mistake would be to waste that investment.  The City of Miami has a similar system that works very well because it is connected to other transit modes.  Indianapolis recently constructed an elevated monorail with much success.

The next time you are in the area, I would love the opportunity to show you how I think it could be significantly improved just by extending it across the railroad tracks into San Marco.

BTW - I am very glad to see you join the forum.  I hope you decide to participate in the conversation on all of these issues.  Your experience in Jacksonville through the years would be a positive contribution.

Quote from: Ted Pappas on January 23, 2011, 08:57:49 PM
The original intent was to alway keep Monroe Street open.  Otherwise, why would they have built the Monroe Street Ramp to begin with.

But the Monroe exit and west Monroe improvements were completed long before the plan to plop the Courthouse in the middle of it.  Perhaps, if Monroe were so critical to the downtown fabric, the folks who 'planned' the Courthouse should have considered that.

One final point. If you  check the past discussions for selecting the plans for the current courthouse, you will discover that the original courthouse plans, in addition to being considerably over the budget, had proposed to close Monroe Street.  The plans for the current courthouse under construction had proposed to leave Monroe Street open.  Back then, that was considered a plus.

Jacksonville has never had a good institutional memory. If it had, it would have never built a jail so close to the river with the express purpose of being near the Bay Street Courthouse.  Then they move the courthouse 10 blocks to the west.

Go figure.

Here's an idea, we can just rename Adams Street to Monroe Street and call it even.  Just like they do with US highway routes through urban areas...

Quote from: Ted Pappas on January 23, 2011, 10:12:09 PM
Jacksonville has never had a good institutional memory.

So true.  And it is becoming even more difficult every time we tear down another old building.  Although I can't say that I'm going to be standing in front of the current courthouse and annex trying to save those buildings.  I'm ready for them to go.

OK, so yesterday I got inspired by what we could do at the courthouse by my experience out at THE TOWN CENTER.  :o I know!!! I got some ideas for one of our most important public spaces from one of the least pedestrian friendly shopping centers in the state.

In the area in front of Maggiano's, there is a small public space with a fountain, a 200 square foot Auntie Annie's pretzel stand, and starbucks & California Pizza Kitchen with outdoor seating on the perimeter of the space.  This area was filled with people looking at the fountain, eating pretzels, and drinking coffee.  How easy would it be to recreate this environment for the courthouse??

I'm not saying we need Koi fish and turtle shaped fountains, but a couple thousand feet of hardscape with fountains and public art that would border a great lawn in the center??  Then let starbucks or somebody lease the land for free if they put a small stand with patio seating on the plaza.....How simple would that be??? I bet we could to that for less than a million and it would do more for the area than the entire courthouse structure.

QuoteThere is a major Green Space in the town core.  Its Hogan Creek.  Not another single building needs to come down, and the ideas that drove this phenomenon in our city have been nothing short of madness.

There are actually two, and frankly it is to our lasting shame that none of the local designers seem to be smart enough to come up with a creative way to utilize it as a public green space, and that is the freaking st john's river.  Its massive.

What?  No One knows how to make an aqua park anymore?  In Florida?  In the South?  On one of the Great Rivers of North America?

For shame.

It is time to start implementing the opposite disaster policies of the past 50 years, and that is to build and infill and create density in the town core that has been almost utterly destroyed by these uninformed, aesthetic polices.

You mean the once majestic, now dilapidated green belt that connects three important urban neighborhoods to the St Johns River... that every major report downtown talks about, but everyone really just plays lip service to?

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/ecrjw3vhbrdgd7mocgmrhsauxeyrhjo6bxxn67gaexqakel63cycqknvpc5yqz7lnz2gt27uynnmb2rq4xo2scj4qdc/Open+Space+and+Pedestrian+Plan.pdf (http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/ecrjw3vhbrdgd7mocgmrhsauxeyrhjo6bxxn67gaexqakel63cycqknvpc5yqz7lnz2gt27uynnmb2rq4xo2scj4qdc/Open+Space+and+Pedestrian+Plan.pdf)

QuoteThe river is Jacksonville's unique international
asset

One of the main goals of the open space and pedestrian
plan is to recognize the important role the river
plays in attracting people to downtown and to
preserve and enhance public accessibility to the river
and its recreational opportunities.Currently the impact of the river is felt mainly by
adjacent properties. To maximize the influence of the
river throughout the city, connections to the St. Johns
River must be forged. These connections will be
created through the implementation of the other parts
of the open space and pedestrian plan.

The emerald necklace links the river to other
parts of downtown
The second component of the open space and
pedestrian plan is the creation of an emerald necklace a ring of parks and open space connecting the
downtown neighborhoods to the river. The emerald
necklace will function as the seam binding individual
neighborhoods together.
To emphasize the connection to the river, Hogan's
Creek will form the first part of the necklace and
McCoy's creek the second.

Parks are legacy projects adding value to
surrounding land parcels
Our vision for Downtown Jacksonville includes the
creation of parks in the center of downtown, our
legacy to future residents.
The parks will provide the links to the river as well as
raise property values in adjacent neighborhoods. Parks
will serve as catalysts for the redevelopment of
adjacent blocks with a mixture of residential and
neighborhood serving uses. The economic impact of
the parks will be felt not only by adjacent properties,
but by the entire downtown.

Pedestrian connections link centers of
downtown activityThe open space and pedestrian plan identifies a series
of pedestrian links. These links are intended to
maximize the potential of the overall park system by
providing connections between small pocket parks, the
emerald necklace and the river.
The importance of the pedestrian system identified by
the continuous red line on the open space plan can
not be over stated. The creation of the emerald
necklace is a long-term project. The pedestrian system
offers both short and long-term solutions in the
creation of the overall open space systems.
Main
pedestrian links include:
· Riverfront
· Hogan's Creek
· McCoy's Creek
· Main/Ocean Street Corridor

Views encourage people to linger downtown
Physical connections are not the only way to link the
river to downtown neighborhoods. One of the most
important methods we can employ to bring the river
into surrounding neighborhoods and entice people to
come down to the river's edge is to establish view
corridors.
The yellow arrows on the plan indicate views of the
river to either be created, preserved, and enhanced.
These views of the river do not start at water's edge,
but are located at the inland culmination of corridors,
such as streets or parks that terminate at the river.

Sustainable stormwater management
encourages dual-use of facilities
The open space plan proposes a network of storm
water ponds that complement the landscape and
function as visual amenities ponds will be designed
with shallow slopes and landscaped edges to take on
the appearance of small lakes.
Possible locations for storm water ponds include:
· Open space network/emerald necklace· Under interstate overpasses
· A network of ponds along the edge of
Interstate 95

Or maybe you're referring to some other magnificent natural asset the city has ignored for decades?!?!

My favorite quote of the month "We've had this river that's been profitable for the city for 100's of years, and all we do is pollute it."

Idea? Why not rebuild Monroe from the FREEway to Hemming Plaza so it can double as a ADRL Drag Racing Strip on the weekends... We could let the crowds sit on the steps, sell concessions from the empty retail spaces, and give extra points for mowing down an "undesirables."

REALLY? A hundred million a mile for the Skyway? Not in your wildest dreams did it cost that much, subtract the maintenance facility and the Acosta Bridge from that and you'll arrive at a much more realistic price. I don't even think JTA could screw up so bad as to pay that much for a monorail.

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteADRL Drag Racing Strip on the weekends

B/c they average about 40k patrons on a Saturday that get in for free and spend a grip of money at concession stands and product vendors... we don't want that many people downtown spending money in retail stores and restaurants on a weekend.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 24, 2011, 09:55:07 AM
OK, so yesterday I got inspired by what we could do at the courthouse by my experience out at THE TOWN CENTER.  :o I know!!! I got some ideas for one of our most important public spaces from one of the least pedestrian friendly shopping centers in the state.

In the area in front of Maggiano's, there is a small public space with a fountain, a 200 square foot Auntie Annie's pretzel stand, and starbucks & California Pizza Kitchen with outdoor seating on the perimeter of the space.  This area was filled with people looking at the fountain, eating pretzels, and drinking coffee.  How easy would it be to recreate this environment for the courthouse??

I'm not saying we need Koi fish and turtle shaped fountains, but a couple thousand feet of hardscape with fountains and public art that would border a great lawn in the center??  Then let starbucks or somebody lease the land for free if they put a small stand with patio seating on the plaza.....How simple would that be??? I bet we could to that for less than a million and it would do more for the area than the entire courthouse structure.

That's not a suburban concept.  Its urban and one that most communities have implemented with their downtown greenspaces.  If a public plaza is built in front of the new courthouse, the same concepts should be implemented.  The link below offers 10 suggestions for creating a space like this.  None of the points suggest adding more asphalt.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-dec-ten-principles-for-creating-successful-squares

I know the plaza is an urban concept.  My point was that a suburban, car-centric, mall even realizes that to create a gathering space within their development, they have to have an active use centered park with attractions and amenities surrounding it.

+1

Quote from: Ted Pappas on January 23, 2011, 08:57:49 PM
By the way, the Skyway Express cost $100,000,000 per mile back then. Not really a good investment for the ridership they have.  The Skyway is the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville.  Most of the businesses  that are along it (Hogan Street and Bay Street have been shut down.

We had a great opportunity to have a wonderful street (Hogan) all the way from Union Street to the river.  Now we have an elevated concrete monstrosity. We now have Laura Street, but you cannot see to the river because guess what: they closed the street for the Jacksonville Landing. How much money has the City of Jacksonville pumped into that project for the last decades.

Well, Ted, I gave you heck a while back on some other issue but we are solidly together on this one.  You need to realize that on MJ we are actually outnumbered by several times (at least based on the active posters).  I think we can take comfort our views are more representative of the greater community. 

By the way, if you care to tread into deeper waters on this subject, go to the Rick Mullaney thread ( http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,11000.0.html ) for the latest round robin discussion about the Skyway.

Stephen, don't age me any faster than necessary.  Ted is a generation ahead of me I am sure.  As to who we might represent, I would say it's more accurate to say we are, in my experience, more representative of those who have lived through the entire Skyway experience.  For some reason, you seem to assume your opinion is the only one that matters on this subject.  From when do you derive such authority?  Self ordination doesn't count.  :D

Since Stjr has stirred the pot, I might as well post this here as well.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 26, 2011, 06:07:56 AM

Quote from: stjr on January 25, 2011, 11:55:16 PM
I noted this quote from Jax architect Ted Pappas on the Courthouse Asphalt or Green Space thread (post #113, http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10900.105.html ) and am adding it here for your viewing pleasure:

Quote from: Ted Pappas on January 23, 2011, 08:57:49 PM
By the way, the Skyway Express cost $100,000,000 per mile back then. Not really a good investment for the ridership they have.  The Skyway is the biggest urban mistake made in Jacksonville.  Most of the businesses  that are along it (Hogan Street and Bay Street have been shut down.

We had a great opportunity to have a wonderful street (Hogan) all the way from Union Street to the river.  Now we have an elevated concrete monstrosity. We now have Laura Street, but you cannot see to the river because guess what: they closed the street for the Jacksonville Landing. How much money has the City of Jacksonville pumped into that project for the last decades.

I noticed this when it was written but I let it slide since I had already hit him over the head enough about the plan to put another road between the courthouse and courthouse parking garage, along with wanting to destroy more blocks of DT for greenspace.

1. The skyway's overall capital cost was $184 million for 2.5 miles.  That breaks down to $73.6 million of which the feds (not Jax) paid as a demonstration project.

2. Within that number, we paid for two systems.  First a peoplemover and then the what you see today.

3. We made the necessary expensive investments for an extensive system first (river crossing, O&M center) and then quit.  The result is similar to building the Dames Point Bridge but stopping 9A at Fort Caroline and New Berlin Road and then wondering why the beltway is not effective.

4. The stores (Sears, JCPenney, Levy-Wolf, Furchgott's, Rosenblum's, May-Cohens) on along the Hogan Street corridor closed between 1981 and 1986.  The skyway along Hogan opened in 2000.

You don't have to like the system and that's understandable.  However, if you're going to toss something out on a public discussion board for all to see for as long as we keep paying the server bills, make sure to verify your sources.

Mayor wants to turn downtown Jacksonville’s Monroe Street into public plaza
But some say closing the courthouse street would create gridlock.

QuoteJacksonville Mayor John Peyton is moving ahead with plans to close Monroe Street in front of the new courthouse, even though most of city government seemed to think for years that the street would remain open.

Instead, if the City Council approves, Monroe will be turned into a public plaza decorated with up to $629,000 worth of public art that may include such functional items as benches and lighting.

Full Article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-07/story/mayor-wants-turn-downtown-jacksonville%E2%80%99s-monroe-street-public-plaza#ixzz1DGsJqxfm

This debate is so silly to me.  A fight over making DT more autocentric or pedestrian friendly? Gridlock in DT Jax, even though the entrance to the courthouse parking garage is off Forsyth Street (almost two blocks to the south).  Besides, the way Pappas' half moon shaped Monroe Street realignment is drawn, it won't even connect to Clay Street (the main entrance of the courthouse parking garage).  Btw, I would like Timothy Gibbons or Michael Corrigan to provide an estimate for the cost to reconstruct that unbudgeted stretch of Monroe Street.  It's only fair to see the cost comparison between the two options.

Good for Peyton and JEDC.  I wish the article had shown a sketch of what Corrigan is proposing and then people could see exactly how many lanes of traffic will have to be crossed by pedestrians.  How about those wonderful comments following the article.  This tells me just how far we have to go in getting the residents in Jacksonville to start thinking beyond the almighty car.

And speaking of cars, I saw one commercial last night with a car coming out of a temple (or something like that) and the people started worshipping it.  The car really is the ultimate god of American culture.  The NFL isn't far behind.

Good for the Mayor.  Finally coming around.  As for the council.....  >:(
They just don't seem to get it.  You can see how one of their bad decisions such as an exit leads to all these other bad decisions.  They need to start thinking ahead and not one move at a time. 

Quote from: dougskiles on February 07, 2011, 06:46:58 AM
Good for Peyton and JEDC.  I wish the article had shown a sketch of what Corrigan is proposing and then people could see exactly how many lanes of traffic will have to be crossed by pedestrians.  How about those wonderful comments following the article.  This tells me just how far we have to go in getting the residents in Jacksonville to start thinking beyond the almighty car.

Those comments always kill me, and I'm afraid they are far more representative of Jacksonville-at-large than some might be willing to admit.

It's a shame the article kept mentioning the $629k for "public art." Surefire way to piss off taxpayers who are struggling is to suggest some of their money is going to be spent on "high falutin' art." A sketch or diagram of the proposed park might have helped.

The TU added this graphic.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/MonroeStreet020711.jpg)

Please send your support of the plaza to the city council members. 

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 11:32:06 AM
The TU added this graphic.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/MonroeStreet020711.jpg)

Is it really a question of just "keeping the street open?" I was under the impression that a great deal of re-building would need to be done - basically, putting in a new street.

If the reporting on this was accurate, perhaps the opinions of the peanut gallery of commentors would change...

I think that they would have to rebuild Monroe Street.

It's always frustrating / depressing to read the comments from people on the Jax.com site.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1060784917_BYqtr-M.jpg)

Bativac, that section of Monroe Street no longer exists.  To replace that connection, a new two block street must be constructed from scratch.  While the plaza can be constructed within the current courthouse budget, a new street can't and will require additional taxpayer funds.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1179535515_kGdBL-M.jpg)

What will they do with the old courthouse?  Loft apartments?

Although, we've had our debates here online, it looks like most (ex. mayoral candidates, Jax Chamber, CVB, etc.) believe it should become the future site of the next convention center.

Quote from: comncense on February 07, 2011, 12:31:39 PM
It's always frustrating / depressing to read the comments from people on the Jax.com site.

+1
Sometimes I feel like it's pointless to try and respond to some of the people who comment on jax.com.  It's always so laced with negativity, which in the case of this argument is a article about our Mayor doing the right thing and probably saving money as many in this thread have pointed out.

A convention center could go into a million vacant lots downtown. Why knock down a perfectly good building shell. IMO

Does Mayor Peyton's support of the plaza help the cause or hurt it? ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 12:37:23 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1060784917_BYqtr-M.jpg)

Bativac, that section of Monroe Street no longer exists.  To replace that connection, a new two block street must be constructed from scratch.  While the plaza can be constructed within the current courthouse budget, a new street can't and will require additional taxpayer funds.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1179535515_kGdBL-M.jpg)

That's what I thought - so why doesn't the TU article state as much? Also, I noticed in the TU article that city officials "seemed to think" and "assumed" Monroe St would remain open. Did nobody take a close look at this thing? Also, the article mentions that Monroe St was supposed to be the "grand entrance" to the downtown area. Really? Did this somehow not come up while the Courthouse was being planned?

What is going on around here? Is there a planning dept? Or do they just approve stuff without considering how it might impact other stuff???

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on February 07, 2011, 01:28:18 PM
Does Mayor Peyton's support of the plaza help the cause or hurt it? ;)

Good Point!!  I bet if he opposed it and the article had the true costs of rebuilding Monroe, the towns people would be up in arms in support of the plaza. 

Look at the extreme angle you would have to take based on Lake's top photo.  They're going to need to stop cars so far back at that intersection so that people on Monroe don't shave off their front bumper.  If they build back Monroe, it will be unsafe for DRIVERS!!!  Coming from 95, you'll hit the intersection, make an extreme right, make an extreme left to follow the curvature of the road, then make another extreme right to get back on the grid section of Monroe.  None of the renderings have done a good job portraying how sharp of a turn the road will be in front of the courthouse.

I am disappointed in the article.  I feel that he could have provided more factual information like how much would be spent on re-building Monroe Street in comparison to the plaza.

I understand that Mr. Corrigan is a City Councilman, but when he states that the "general public assumes it's going to be open", I wonder how he came to that conclusion.  It has been 7 years since the general public used Monroe Street to access downtown.

It would help if they show the actual drawing of the proposed new road.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1153754340_DvuwX-M.jpg)

It didn't hit me until this morning.  The courthouse parking garage's main entrance is on Clay Street.  To access the garage from Monroe, one would have to take this loop around the courthouse, turn right on Pearl.  After a block on Pearl, turn right on Adams and drive a block before making a left on Clay.  That's a lot of unnessary vehicle movement in what is supposed to be a pedestrian friendly downtown.  Its much easier to send courthouse traffic down Forsyth, enabling users to make a left onto Clay.

QuoteIn looking at the BRT phase one plan that you posted, is it just me or does this plan almost entirely duplicate the route of the Skyway on the southbank?

Yes, it does.  However, some at JTA actually believe they aren't duplicate routes and won't compete for ridership.

I saw that picture after writing my previous comment.  Think of that road on a rainy day.  They might want to reconsider adding that pedestrian bridge from the old federal courthouse to the new courthouse.  Cars are going to slide out straight into that corner of the federal courthouse.

If they do go with the plaza, they could build great complete street concepts into the north side of Forsyth. 

Quote from: dougskiles on February 07, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
I am disappointed in the article.  I feel that he could have provided more factual information like how much would be spent on re-building Monroe Street in comparison to the plaza.

I understand that Mr. Corrigan is a City Councilman, but when he states that the "general public assumes it's going to be open", I wonder how he came to that conclusion.  It has been 7 years since the general public used Monroe Street to access downtown.

I don't think Mr. Corrigan considers the general public.  This project has been shortsighted ever since the exit off of 95 was put there. 

I saw this story on the news last night, and was cautiously excited that the mayor had finally made a good choice about something. However, I was disappointed to hear the media sounding as if it were against the park and of like mind of the stupidity of JAX at large. They even spoke unfavorably about the art, mentioning the cost of the art. And the lack of having the road, they made it sound like a bad thing. Perhaps we need an overhall in the local media as well.

QuoteI saw this story on the news last night, and was cautiously excited that the mayor had finally made a good choice about something. However, I was disappointed to hear the media sounding as if it were against the park and of like mind of the stupidity of JAX at large. They even spoke unfavorably about the art, mentioning the cost of the art. And the lack of having the road, they made it sound like a bad thing. Perhaps we need an overhall in the local media as well.

I woke up a little earlier than usual today and caught the morning news... it is imperative to contact your council member b/c the news outlets are spinning this in a very dishonest way.

I haven't seen any of the TV news (because nothing is more boring to me than televised news programs).  Have any of them given a cost comparison between the road construction and the park construction?

no.

and that is why I refer to Metro Jacksonville for real news. 

QuoteHave any of them given a cost comparison between the road construction and the park construction?

No, and they are presenting the story in a way that says that the money for this public plaza is somehow new money thrown at the project and is nothing more than another example of government spending your money. 

It's slanted, sloppy and dishonest.

Who would be the best people in these organizations to appeal to?

One day, the proposed plaza/green space might make a great spot for an Adam's Street streetcar "station".  That would sure beat having Monroe snake through the place.  In fact, maybe Monroe itself would make a great east-west street car line.  The streetcar, not the street, could zip around the courthouse front.

Ted, I agreed with you on the useless Skyway but this quote by you I don't.  Why don't you support a streetcar line and scrap the street?

QuoteJacksonville council scraps plan to close Monroe Street
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-08/story/jacksonville-council-scraps-plan-close-monroe-street

By Steve Patterson

Jacksonville’s City Council on Tuesday detoured a plan to permanently close Monroe Street at the new Duval County courthouse, stripping the idea from a bill involving the courthouse project.

“If you really wan to close this street, bring a separate bill ... [and] we’ll have a community discussion,” Councilman Michael Corrigan said as he pushed to prevent the closure.

The closure was part of a package of ideas the Mayor’s Office sent to council members last month, saying reopening was impractical because the front of the new courthouse bulges into the roadway.

However a series of residents, including design professionals, argued for reconfiguring the road during a hearing that preceded the council’s action.

Speakers said Monroe Street, which dates to the 1870s, is a key piece of the city’s web of downtown streets, and the only direct link between Interstate 95 and the Hart Expressway on the other side of downtown.

“I wish we had something to protect important streets that are the lifeblood of our city,” said Ted Pappas, a former national president of the American Institute of Architects.

Pappas showed council members a rough sketch of a possible route for the street that would use part of an area that city officials wanted to treat as a plaza and said it was possible to have both. His idea was not part of what the council voted for.

Regardless of whether the road ever reopens, some new legislation appears to be inevitable. The city had previously committed to reopen the road but did not identify a new right of way to avoid the courthouse, so some decision is needed either to abandon the road or reroute it.

Both choices could have downsides, said Councilman Bill Bishop, who referenced support for the closure from the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission.

“I understand why JEDC wants to close the street, because we have this behemoth of a building in the street,” Bishop said, adding he was worried that arcing around the building could leave an impractically narrow sliver of land for where the plaza would have been.

But with downtown streets dominated by one-way routes, he said, leaving Monroe closed means “you have to go either two blocks north or two blocks south ... which would not be a good idea.”

After stripping out the road closure, the council sent the remainder of the bill back to a series of committees, which will take up subjects including a proposal to send $629,000 appointing the plaza with benches, lighting and other amenities.

I think a delay on this is fair...at least until the downtown traffic circulation study is complete...if other streets are converted to two-way, there is very little need to reopen Monroe

[

QuoteJacksonville council scraps plan to close Monroe Street
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-08/story/jacksonville-council-scraps-plan-close-monroe-street

By Steve Patterson

Speakers said Monroe Street, which dates to the 1870s, is a key piece of the city’s web of downtown streets, and the only direct link between Interstate 95 and the Hart Expressway on the other side of downtown.

I guess nobody ever used Forsyth St. to get to the Hart Expressway. Every time I use the Forsyth St. exit from I-95 it gets me right to the Hart - no turns.

Quote from: Ralph W on February 08, 2011, 11:51:56 PM

I guess nobody ever used Forsyth St. to get to the Hart Expressway. Every time I use the Forsyth St. exit from I-95 it gets me right to the Hart - no turns.

Well, no turns per se, but you do have to make a little jog to the left to avoid another fantasticly planned gov't building.  Duval Hilton anyone.

Does this mean that closing Monroe is a no go or that further study is going to happen??

Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

Now MJ posters. Just throwing this out there. But remember the discussion about the park across from the library. Park or housing? Is everyone happy with the park? Sure there is housing available Downtown so why add to the inventory. Would housing across from the Courthouse be better than a park? Maybe not right now, but how would an urban planner look at this especially when we also have a taxpayer subsidized parking garage right in the middle. Just curious.

Noone, here are a few reasons why I believe Monroe Street should remain closed.  

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1153736986_b48eV-M.jpg)
Money for the park is already budgeted.  Money for a new road would require taking funds from another potential project.

1. There's no money budgeted to build it.  It would probably cost over a million.  If you had a million to spend improving downtown, would investing in a new street in front of the courthouse make it to the top of that list?  Personally, if we can free up money like that, I'd rather throw it into a project like opening the pier to the public on Bay Street or better integrating businesses with the sidewalks to stimulate life and foot traffic.

2. Forsyth Street connects you to everything Monroe does, if traveling from northbound I-95, including the Hart Bridge Expressway.  Whoever stated that Monroe Street was the only street doing this, flat out lied.  Because of Forsyth Street, I-95 access is a non-issue.

3. The JEDC has plans to convert most of downtown's one-way streets back to two-way.  Converting those one-way streets back to two-way will create better access than a new one-way street would do.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570840592_UdE5L-M.jpg)
An aerial and shots of Nashville's Courthouse Square.  Take not of the surrounding street grid.  Automobile access is great, due to the two-way street network.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570840621_HQ2zr-M.jpg)

4. Pedestrian Safety.  The courthouse garage is south of Adams Street and it's main entrance is on Clay Street.  To access the courthouse, pedestrians will have to cross six lanes of roadway.  However, traffic will travel in reverse which will be pretty dangerous for walking....the exact opposite of what we should want in a downtown core.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Duval-County-Courthouse-Plaza/Monroe-St/1153754340_DvuwX-L.jpg)
The courthouse garage entrance is on Clay Street. Imagine the risk for a pedestrian crossing at Clay & Adams/Monroe with the reverse travel pattern created by moving Monroe within a concrete median's distance of Adams.  Also, take your finger, place it at Monroe and Broad and attempt to travel to Clay Street to access the garage.  Congestion is created by stop and go traffic.  Stopping and going at every block is exactly what someone would have to do by car with a new Monroe Street.

5. Unnecessary auto travel.  The courthouse garage's main entrance is on Clay Street.  A new Monroe Street won't have access to Clay, due to the weird unnecessary loop it will make.  This means to access the garage via Monroe, you have to pass the courthouse, make a right on Pearl, make a right on Adams, immediately merge and swith lanes and make a left on Clay.  Two-waying streets eliminates this congestion making vehicle travel pattern and using Forsyth to access the garage only means making on left turn from Forsyth to Clay.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/837078449_RLyno-M.jpg)
Downtown Mobile's Cathedral Square's interaction with Dauphin Street is what a well designed public space can do for Adams Street and the retail at the base of the courthouse garage.  Rebuilding Monroe gives you another Main & Ocean or Broad & Jefferson feel to the area.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1159341094_YbVgH-M.jpg)
In this image, you can see some of the street level retail space at Clay & Adams, just south of the courthouse main entrance.  Rebuilding Monroe would mean crossing six lanes of asphalt.  Are we designing a core for pedestrians or cars?

6. Regarding park space, the Main Street Park and a Courthouse Plaza are an apples and oranges comparison.  The Main Street Park is an isolated green space surrounded by surface parking, Salvation Army and a heavy traveled one way highway.  The Courthouse Plaza would better integrate the courthouse with the courthouse garage's retail spaces facing Adams Street.  By not rebuilding Monroe for vehicles (imo, it should be rebuilt as a multiuse path for pedestrians and cyclists in the park) and two-waying Adams, we have an opportunity to better integrate retail and restaurants serving courthouse visitors with the front door of the courthouse.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/837069709_Asg5B-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/837069672_fgsch-M.jpg)
From an urban planning standpoint, its not even a debate.  A public space that costs you hundreds of thousands less, promotes walkability, integrates retail and better fits the courthouse monster into the surrounding area is a clearly superior option.

You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

Quote from: Noone on February 09, 2011, 06:02:35 AM
Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

This will sound completely strange to some - but my opinion is that gridlock downtown for cars will actually help to promote the use of transit, which in turn will promote more walking, which will lead to a more vibrant core.  We have spent decades trying to make downtown more friendly for the cars and I believe it is time to reverse that trend.  I have never been to a thriving urban area that was easy to get around using a car.  In fact, I would bet there is an inverse relationship.  The cities with the best urban core probably have the least driver friendly layout.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2011, 07:01:14 AM
You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 09, 2011, 08:26:03 AM

Quote from: Noone on February 09, 2011, 06:02:35 AM
Monroe St. should remain open. I was in the area driving around in the morning and the traffic was just backed up. I'm not there often but I'm thinking what a mess. And the Courthouse is empty right now. Also someone pointed out you go off I 95 and a two lane exit into a one lane dead end. That doesn't sound good.

This will sound completely strange to some - but my opinion is that gridlock downtown for cars will actually help to promote the use of transit, which in turn will promote more walking, which will lead to a more vibrant core.  We have spent decades trying to make downtown more friendly for the cars and I believe it is time to reverse that trend.  I have never been to a thriving urban area that was easy to get around using a car.  In fact, I would bet there is an inverse relationship.  The cities with the best urban core probably have the least driver friendly layout.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2011, 07:01:14 AM
You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

Totally Agree.  I mean I hate driving around in the SJTC.  I usually get pissed off and park my car and walk where I need to go.  Probably planned this way. 

The grid of Downtown was destroyed when they decided to plop the courthouse down right in the middle of it. Close the dang street. Did anyone speak in favor of closing Monroe St? Maybe MJ could get some of these ideas to Bishop and others?

Quote from: TheProfessor on February 09, 2011, 03:28:42 AM
Does this mean that closing Monroe is a no go or that further study is going to happen??

It means that Council has told the administration if they want to do it, come back to Council with the proposal not attached to something else.

I think they are best served by waiting on the traffic study...it should be done in a month or two

So they didn't do a traffic study before putting a building on Monroe Street?

A traffic study automatically puts the easy movement of cars over any and all other values that exist in an area.

No traffic study is going to be valid, even about the auto traffic anyway, unless it is done AFTER most of the downtown streets are converted back to two-way.

A traffic study will do nothing except support keeping Monroe open by it's very nature.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 09, 2011, 08:26:03 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2011, 07:01:14 AM
You gave me the opportunity to explore the St. Johns River, McCoys and Hogans Creeks to highlight their potential.  If interested, I'd like to do the same with the courthouse.  Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

That is a GREAT idea.  And hopefully some of the TU writers and news media would be willing to join you.  I believe that when people stand on Adams Street and look at the front of the courthouse they will fully understand what JEDC wants to do.  Hopefully they will.  And particularly if they are willing to get out of their cars for a moment.

I park daily in the garage on the corner of Adams & Julia Street.  Going up to the top level of that garage or the courthouse garage would also drive home the point.  It's one thing to look at these things on paper but you get a completely different feel on foot at street level and five stories up.

Monroe (and all the streets for that matter) should have remained open in the original design. Now that there is a big fat building over the right of way, twisting Monroe around it is just adding to our downtown Frankenstein.

Your are right Stephen, this is mind blowing to me. I dont understnad why Bishop would support this. he is an architect/planner for crying out loud. I would suggest we all begin an email campaign to the Council members.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 09, 2011, 09:02:14 AM
A traffic study automatically puts the easy movement of cars over any and all other values that exist in an area.

not necessarily...I've worked on several that have put other forms of mobility at the top...this one is a study to explore the possibility of returning the one-way streets back to two-way

 Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

Ennis:  Why not make this offer to council members including Corrigan?

If accessibility is such an issue, why don't they just convert Adams back to a 2 way street? Then you can just use it instead of Monroe. Or is that an insane proposition?

My prediction: Monroe St will be reopened and the entire plaza will be paved over. The city will perhaps allow someone to sell hot dogs or newspapers (but not both). That person will not be allowed to advertise.

At least if Monroe St is rebuilt, it'll make it easier for everyone who works at the Courthouse to drive to a strip mall on the Southside for lunch, am I right?

Quote from: Bativac on February 09, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
If accessibility is such an issue, why don't they just convert Adams back to a 2 way street? Then you can just use it instead of Monroe. Or is that an insane proposition?

My prediction: Monroe St will be reopened and the entire plaza will be paved over. The city will perhaps allow someone to sell hot dogs or newspapers (but not both). That person will not be allowed to advertise.

At least if Monroe St is rebuilt, it'll make it easier for everyone who works at the Courthouse to drive to a strip mall on the Southside for lunch, am I right?

Why is the city so anti-entrepreneur?  What do these people fear exactly besides potential commerce?

Quote from: Kay on February 09, 2011, 10:03:04 AM
Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

Ennis:  Why not make this offer to council members including Corrigan?

I just got off the phone with someone who wants to set up something similar for the TU editorial board.  That offer is available to anyone.  In addition, I do plan to put something together for council members this weekend that highlights the major issues.  My intention is to send it via email to all of them, as well as post on MJ.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2011, 10:19:46 AM

Quote from: Kay on February 09, 2011, 10:03:04 AM
Let's meet up at the courthouse garage one of these days and let me walk you through my viewpoint.

Ennis:  Why not make this offer to council members including Corrigan?

I just got off the phone with someone who wants to set up something similar for the TU editorial board.  That offer is available to anyone.  In addition, I do plan to put something together for council members this weekend that highlights the major issues.  My intention is to send it via email to all of them, as well as post on MJ.

I sent a council-wide email out yesterday, essentially echoing your same points.

Please let me know what day/time to meet up and I will be there!

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2011, 07:01:14 AM

2. Forsyth Street connects you to everything Monroe does, if traveling from northbound I-95, including the Hart Bridge Expressway.  Whoever stated that Monroe Street was the only street doing this, flat out lied.  Because of Forsyth Street, I-95 access is a non-issue.

You have to wonder if Corrigan, Pappas and the others arguing to keep Monroe open because it connects I-95 to the Hart Bridge ever venture downtown (or have access to a map.) Forsyth accomplishes the same thing and is faster than Monroe. (Especially when you factor in an awkward jog around the courthouse.)

Close the road; save money; and make downtown friendlier for pedestrians!

QuoteYou have to wonder if Corrigan, Pappas and the others arguing to keep Monroe open because it connects I-95 to the Hart Bridge ever venture downtown (or have access to a map.) Forsyth accomplishes the same thing and is faster than Monroe. (Especially when you factor in an awkward jog around the courthouse.)

I use Forsyth and Union when I drive downtown almost excusively.  The only time I wind up on Monroe is if I made a wrong turn, lol.

Where will prospective jurors be parking at the new courthouse?  I ask because their safety and convenience as pedestrians is probably more important to the council and the chief judge than anyone else's.

Good question. 
Currently jurrors park free next to the Arena and use the Bay Street PCT trolley to access the courthouse.

Quote from: Lunican on February 09, 2011, 09:28:30 AM
Monroe (and all the streets for that matter) should have remained open in the original design. Now that there is a big fat building over the right of way, twisting Monroe around it is just adding to our downtown Frankenstein.

What was the plan for Monroe in the "Original Design?"  And how did the project get this far without someone noticing the problem?  This is a serious black-eye for all involved, but I expect it all to be conveniently forgotton when the next project is up for bid.

Maybe they should have looked to the west for answers,

(http://www.janeo.com/uploaded_images/IMG_0392-771461.jpg)

I agree! Voter approved for $190 Million and what do we get........a $350 Dollar white elephant with very poor  periphals! No parking, no green spaces and no sense! Good job Johnny once again. One more glaring example of the current administrations expertise and the public gets to pay for it again!

Lol, no, $400mm at this point and still not finished yet...

Looking east, along Adams, towards the intersection with Clay.  All of the buildings on the left side of this photo (taken in 1946) were on the courthouse parcel under debate.

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/commerce/c002725.jpg)

I've been involved in an email chain with suburbanites that want a road constructed in front of the courthouse, no matter the cost involved or the safety issues a move will cause for downtown pedestrians.  If you support the concept of a walkable downtown and spending $2 million more taxpayer dollars on another highway downtown, then you may want to show up and speak at next Tuesday's council meeting.

QuoteAttention All,

This item is scheduled for a continued Public Hearing at City Council Meeting, February 22, 2011, starting at 5:00 PM.

Please come in and speak out to the insult of this bill and show to them and the viewers at home how wrong this is. 

No matter what reason you offer this is a defiance of years of the people speaking against this very plan and it's cost and even if it is "budgeted" to spend the money on this project is in violation of Ordinance (Law) and certainly the voice of the people.

Please come out in mass and embarrass the authors of this crime.

I haven't seen the email chain.  Is there any discussion of the cost of building the road versus the cost of green space?

And what exactly are the costs proposed for each?

My fear is that the green space cost is shown as an add-on to the courthouse cost.  And then the cost for the road comes out of another city budget so it appears as if we are keeping the courthouse cost low - when we are likely spending even more money somewhere else.

$630k has been set aside for public art/green space in the courthouse budget.  This money will be spent on these items regardless of whether a road is constructed or not.

The road is not within the courthouse budget.  According to FDOT's 2009 Roadway Cost Per Centerline Mile estimates, a new construction 2-lane roadway with 5' sidewalks, and curb & gutter averages around $11,984,683 million/mile.  The weird Monroe Street alignment appears to be 0.18 miles in length on Google Earth.  $11,984,683 million x 0.18 miles = $2.16 million.  

Nobody has talked numbers but according to the documents that were used to estimate Mobility Plan project costs, the Monroe Street alignment will require in the range of $2 million additional dollars from taxpayers to construct.  Of course, when detailed out that number could rise or drop.  However, given that environment, I'm sure it would be designed to have special pedestrian signals, expensive pavers and special lighting in a poor attempt to fit it in.  The addition of these items, along with any unknown issues underground (it will travel over the path of demolished buildings that had basements) could cause that $2 million figure to rise.

I wish you guys would quit posting these old photos of downtown Jacksonville. It seriously breaks my heart.

Perhaps a "Then and Now" photo comparison brochure could be made up from the MJ archives and handed out to each council member, each mayoral candidate and the movers and shakers determined to carry on with the status quo of destruction and parking lot proliferation.

Add a third photo to each group showing what others have done to bring their downtowns into the here and now.

Title it: "Are you embarrassed to have been a part of turning a vibrant city into a wasteland of overgrown surface parking lots and flight to the suburbs".

wow!

Quote from: Ralph W on February 15, 2011, 01:51:36 PM
Perhaps a "Then and Now" photo comparison brochure could be made up from the MJ archives and handed out to each council member, each mayoral candidate and the movers and shakers determined to carry on with the status quo of destruction and parking lot proliferation.

Add a third photo to each group showing what others have done to bring their downtowns into the here and now.

Title it: "Are you embarrassed to have been a part of turning a vibrant city into a wasteland of overgrown surface parking lots and flight to the suburbs".

This is a great idea. Call it THE DECLINE OF JACKSONVILLE and subtitle it "and what your team did to further it"

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastatingly nuked 65+ years ago and they look more vibrant today than downtown Jax. MJ should do a comparison of how two cities went from the ultimate disaster to arise again and one city went from a booming success to a downtown disaster, of sorts, during the same time.

P.S. Notice the streetcar in the Hiroshima photo below.


Wikipedia: Nagasaki's vibrant waterfront features events like visits from sailing ships:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Nagasaki_C1414.jpg/250px-Nagasaki_C1414.jpg)

Nagasaki after the A-bomb:
(http://www.japanfocus.org/data/nagasaki_afterbomb.jpg)

Wikipedia: From top left:Hiroshima Castle, Baseball game of Hiroshima Toyo Carp in Hiroshima Municipal Baseball Stadium, Hiroshima Peace Memorial (Genbaku Dome), Night view of Ebisu-cho, Children's Peace Monument:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Hiroshima_montage.jpg/250px-Hiroshima_montage.jpg)

Hiroshima after the A-bomb:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/AtomicEffects-Hiroshima.jpg/220px-AtomicEffects-Hiroshima.jpg)

Vip tour coming up
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/422234/paul-pinkham/2011-03-23/chief-judge-mayor-and-council-examine-proximity-new

Chief Circuit Judge Donald Moran and Mayor John Peyton are planning to meet in the morning with City Council members for a look-see at the new Duval County Courthouse and its proximity to Monroe Street.

The group will gather at the Ed Ball Building at 10:30 then proceed to the construction site. The purpose of the meeting, according to the mayor's office, is "to examine the proximity of Monroe Street to the courthouse facility.

Whether to close Monroe Street has been a hot topic of debate. The new courthouse blocks the current route, but some on the council want to wind it around the building."

Maybe someone can call Audrey and have her tell her brother-in-law to see that they close this section of Monroe Street.  It could at least be a consolation prize for the election.

QuotePlease see the attached public meeting notice:

Public Meeting Notice to Examine Proximity of Courthouse and Monroe Street

Notice is hereby given that Mayor John Peyton and Chief Judge Donald Moran will meet with City Council Members at the Duval County Courthouse Facility to examine the proximity of Monroe Street to the Courthouse Facility on Thursday, March 24, 2011 at 10:30 a.m. All interested persons are invited to attend and should meet promptly at 10:30 a.m. at the Ed Ball Building , 1st floor security desk. 

Note: This is an active construction site, so please dress appropriately (long pants and closed-toe, flat-soled shoes).

Please contact Ginny Walthour at (904) 630-2518 for additional information.

so this means that everybody needs to stop wishing and complaining and SHOW UP!! I'm going to go!