San Marco By Design
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1002686377_zzBnj-M.jpg)
San Marco Preservation Society (SMPS) and City of Jacksonville Planning & Development Department (COJ PDD) are in the midst of creating a smart growth plan for San Marco. Metro Jacksonville shares preliminary graphics in an effort to solicit feedback from the community at large.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-san-marco-by-design
Thanks for the article. I look forward to hearing ideas and comments from the MJ community and will pass them along to our steering committee (of which, I am a member).
Look for regular updates of our progress in this thread.
It is quite ironic that San Marco, 5 Points, and Avondale have been successful as urban commercial districts but DT is suffering so much. I think the resident-grassroots-driven nature of those areas vs. DT is a critical difference. DVI, DDA, et al were all government driven and controlled. RAP, SMPS, are not.
I think it looks really good.
One thing that I noticed mentioned a lot was the Kings Ave garage. There needs to be some sort of easy access from 95NB and back on to 95SB from this garage. Currently it's nearly impossible to get to, especially for someone unfamiliar with the area. Until that happens I think it will be very difficult to utilize in redeveloping the Kings Ave district.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 07, 2011, 07:23:21 AM
It is quite ironic that San Marco, 5 Points, and Avondale have been successful as urban commercial districts but DT is suffering so much. I think the resident-grassroots-driven nature of those areas vs. DT is a critical difference. DVI, DDA, et al were all government driven and controlled. RAP, SMPS, are not.
Well, I also think the wealth of those communities has a lot to do with it as well.
I don't think its a coincidence that most of the urban development these days is going on in Avondale & San Marco. While Downtown, Springfield & even Five Points these days are having so much trouble with business growth & keeping their storefronts occupied.
Quote from: peestandingup on January 07, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on January 07, 2011, 07:23:21 AM
It is quite ironic that San Marco, 5 Points, and Avondale have been successful as urban commercial districts but DT is suffering so much. I think the resident-grassroots-driven nature of those areas vs. DT is a critical difference. DVI, DDA, et al were all government driven and controlled. RAP, SMPS, are not.
Well, I also think the wealth of those communities has a lot to do with it as well.
I don't think its a coincidence that most of the urban development these days is going on in Avondale & San Marco. While Downtown, Springfield & even Five Points these days are having so much trouble with business growth & keeping their storefronts occupied.
You have a point. I find wealthy people have a lot less tolerance for excuses and government end-runs. They have the ear of the political bosses, so they get what they want.
Quote from: stephendare on January 07, 2011, 08:52:03 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on January 07, 2011, 08:19:36 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on January 07, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on January 07, 2011, 07:23:21 AM
It is quite ironic that San Marco, 5 Points, and Avondale have been successful as urban commercial districts but DT is suffering so much. I think the resident-grassroots-driven nature of those areas vs. DT is a critical difference. DVI, DDA, et al were all government driven and controlled. RAP, SMPS, are not.
Well, I also think the wealth of those communities has a lot to do with it as well.
I don't think its a coincidence that most of the urban development these days is going on in Avondale & San Marco. While Downtown, Springfield & even Five Points these days are having so much trouble with business growth & keeping their storefronts occupied.
You have a point. I find wealthy people have a lot less tolerance for excuses and government end-runs. They have the ear of the political bosses, so they get what they want.
Its a simple matter of organization and clear vision.
Downtown is toxic for small business and development and there are no success stories that prove it to be a good bet for developers. Think about it, Avondale has no Toney Sleimans or Jerry Morans who are getting publicly crushed by downtown policies.
Springfield was debating whether or not Car Washes caused crime and shutting down fish markets. It was much too busy in these elysian pursuits to attract any of the hundred or so businesses that wanted to come there.
And five points is having a bit of an identity crisis, as the rents rose to high to support the kinds of businesses that create the bohemian vibe. With Avondale and San Marco so close, the market ---which would support a growing bohemian district-----won't really support three avondale style districts within such a small radius. In the meantime a poor district like King Street is getting all the real growth that might naturally have occurred in Springfield or Five Points.
Whats the difference? There is a desire for a district and consensus in the community surrounding it.
+1 I think that's pretty spot on. It seems that Springfield, Downtown & Five Points are losing out to the other areas mentioned (San Marco, Avondale & King), at least in the small business vibrancy sense. I think the economic downturn & speculative markets also may have played a big role in those up & coming areas that weren't as established. Well, we know they did actually. That's not a big secret.
You're right about Five Points. Walking through there these days is kind of depressing. Half of the stores are empty & there isn't much foot traffic for the rest. That's a big turnaround from just a couple years ago. I saw even Caribbean Connection has closed its doors, and they've been there forever.
Hopefully the building owners are thinking about lowering their rents to attract new business so those people can sustain themselves better instead of bleeding out of their funds in a couple months & then closing shop. Give them time to grow & develop. A lot of these guys need bitch-slapped back into reality. It ain't like it was 4 years ago & it's not gonna be for a long time. Work with people or continue to have a high turnaround and/or empty space.
QuoteA future rail station along Atlantic Blvd. at the FEC crossing is also indicated.
So this might actually become for-real?? Stellar!!
Doug, are there any plans to help out the Southbank with this redevelopment?
Nest is moving out of Five Points soon---heading to a space in San Marco with better parking.
Parking. Always stupid parking! Ugh.
I think San Marco may be a better location for Nest but better parking? Not likely!
One reason for making the neighborhood more pedestrian and bicycle friendly is to reduce current parking problems without constructing unsightly parking lots and/or garages...
Quote from: peestandingup on January 07, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
Hopefully the building owners are thinking about lowering their rents to attract new business so those people can sustain themselves better instead of bleeding out of their funds in a couple months & then closing shop. Give them time to grow & develop. A lot of these guys need bitch-slapped back into reality. It ain't like it was 4 years ago & it's not gonna be for a long time. Work with people or continue to have a high turnaround and/or empty space.
I am almost certain the building owners are not at all considering lowering their rents. Property owners here seem to be perpetually deluded about the value of their properties and would rather the property remain vacant than lower the rent. Not to mention - forget about the property owner doing any kind of basic improvements to the property.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 07, 2011, 11:51:10 AM
I think San Marco may be a better location for Nest but better parking? Not likely!
One reason for making the neighborhood more pedestrian and bicycle friendly is to reduce current parking problems without constructing unsightly parking lots and/or garages...
San Marco definitely has better parking than 5 Points. I don't prefer one area over the other but it's easier to find a convenient spot in San Marco than it is on the Park Street strip in 5 Points. Also easier to pull in and back out of spaces in San Marco.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on January 07, 2011, 10:40:22 AM
Doug, are there any plans to help out the Southbank with this redevelopment?
While the official northern boundary of the plan is I-95, we are condidering how our plans interface with the Southbank riverwalk. For example, I was just in a meeting talking to someone about creating a pedestrian/bike loop that would start at the end of the riverwalk (River City Brewing) continue around Baptist Hospital, Nemours and then through San Marco on Cedar Street, to the Kings Avenue garage, around the old JEA Southside Generating Station property to the start of the riverwalk at the School Board. The loop would be about 3 miles - perfect for a 5k race.
How about a very small floating dock at the little park along Lake Marco?
So nice to see the word "infill" all over this article. Understanding the need for mixed used development (http://www.monarchrh.com/) doesn't always mean that the developers truly comprehend the concepts of sustainability. Can't wait to see what comes out of this.
Best little plan going on right now. I don't know enough to make a full on claim, but at this point it seems to me that RAP and SPAR hold back development in Riverside/Avondale and Springfield.
Also, what is "the beach?" There were several blurbs about this "beach" and a blurb about extending the Southbank riverwalk to this "beach."
I am very impressed and very hopeful. Also, I have never had a parking problem in 5 Points. I usually just park behind Firehouse in San Marco because parking there is not much better, if at all.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 07, 2011, 07:26:19 AM
One thing that I noticed mentioned a lot was the Kings Ave garage. There needs to be some sort of easy access from 95NB and back on to 95SB from this garage. Currently it's nearly impossible to get to, especially for someone unfamiliar with the area. Until that happens I think it will be very difficult to utilize in redeveloping the Kings Ave district.
The FDOT Overland Bridge project will solve that problem with the new interchange at Atlantic. You will be able to go north on Kings Avenue from the interchange to the garage and back.
Quote from: stephendare on January 07, 2011, 08:52:03 AM
Whats the difference? There is a desire for a district and consensus in the community surrounding it.
The key word is definitely
consensus. And that is what we are working very hard to achieve. We realize that it doesn't matter how great these plans are if we don't have consensus in the community.
Quote from: billy on January 07, 2011, 02:46:16 PM
How about a very small floating dock at the little park along Lake Marco?
One of the main themes that kept coming up in all of the meetings is connectivity. Between parks, between business centers, between neighborhoods, and between the rest of Jacksonville. So, yes, a small floating dock is something that I would like to see along one of our riverfront parks. Others have shared this desire, too, so I believe it will happen, eventually. My hope is that we can create a 'blueway' that will connect our historic neighborhoods - Riverside, San Marco and Springfield (by way of Hogan's Creek).
Quote from: simms3 on January 07, 2011, 03:21:55 PM
Also, what is "the beach?" There were several blurbs about this "beach" and a blurb about extending the Southbank riverwalk to this "beach."
Riverfront Park is the formal name - it's just north of Landon and has apartments on the east side. Lots of fisherman.
QuoteFor example, I was just in a meeting talking to someone about creating a pedestrian/bike loop that would start at the end of the riverwalk (River City Brewing) continue around Baptist Hospital, Nemours and then through San Marco on Cedar Street, to the Kings Avenue garage, around the old JEA Southside Generating Station property to the start of the riverwalk at the School Board. The loop would be about 3 miles - perfect for a 5k race.
Great idea Doug!
I liked it too. But I don't want to give the impression that the idea came from me. I am mostly a coordinator in this project. We have been fortunate to have the participation of many creative minds - and are looking for more - so if you have any ideas, send them to me.
The community workshop is this coming Saturday from 9:00 to 11:30 am. All are welcome, you don't have to live or work in San Marco to participate.
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Doug, will there be more meetings?
Yes - but they have not been planned yet. The next step is for the city to assimilate the information into a draft code and bring it back to the neighborhood for review.
But we are always having informal meetings, so if you would like discuss it, please send me a PM.
Not sure how long this document has been published, but it's fairly new judging by the photos that show Hollingsworth in the old Peterbrooke facility.
Link: http://smpsjax.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/SMPS-Action-Plan-FINAL.pdf (http://smpsjax.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/SMPS-Action-Plan-FINAL.pdf)
Highlights include:
Shared-use path connecting Fuller-Warren (and Riverside) to Kings Avenue Station and The District along Nira
Proposed Skyway extension (at grade) at Atlantic Blvd, across from East San Marco
Proposed streetcar/trolley service connecting North San Marco to the JTA Skyway
Fishing pier and floating dock in Riverfront Park connecting to RAM via Water Taxi
Dog park along the east side of the railroad track, south of Atlantic Blvd.
Sensory park beneath I-95 at the Fuller-Warren
Redesign of LaSalle with "complete streets" infrastructure
A lot of this stuff is very "pie-in-the-sky," obviously, but given the momentum in North San Marco and the Downtown Southbank... I suppose anything is possible. It's certainly encouraging to see such a bold vision for the area immediately surrounding my house.