I know that's sort of a matter of opinion & that pretty much every area has "regressed" in some respect, but to me (and to many of you I'm sure) it seems that SPR suffered a huge blow from this economy & also from the speculative build up from a lot of investors (mostly from out of town who aren't "in touch" with the community) thinking it was going to be the next Buckhead in the last decade, bought high, crashed hard & are now just sitting on their property letting it rot.
Most of the buildings on Main look like a bomb went off in them. I've been looking at different commercial properties lately & its kinda shocking (especially considering what it was just a few years ago when it seemed to be coming around). Mostly just peering through windows, but I did go inside where the old Boomtown used to be (1714 Main St N) & the celing was literally caved in, there was water/mold damage everywhere, etc. There were even weeds growing inside the place. :-[ Oh, and this place is currently listed for rent for a cool $10 a square foot. :-\ What's wrong with this picture??
My question is, why is the city not taking these places from their dead beat owners & giving them to people who will actually keep them up?? It seems completely foolish & a total waste of resources to spend the Millions they have on fixing up Main street & the sidewalks just to let the buildings decay. I mean, that's not a very good investment of their money, and it's certainly not good for the area.
So what do you guys think? Are we just outta luck & at the mercy of the city here for these things?? With all the foreclosures, the abandoned homes/buildings, the rate of demolitions lately, etc, do you guys see this getting much worse & the area slipping back into the abyss??
I'm sure I'm not telling you guys stuff you don't already know, but I feel it needs to be talked about more so the problems can be solved, and quickly. Because I think the economy & city budget stuff is only gonna get worse, so I'd like to hear some suggestions that doesn't involve throwing huge piles of money towards it (because that probably can't happen anyways). Thanks.
The city appears to have to options (if taxes are being paid) ignore it or demolish it. That is their view on it. I think Springfield and Main St. have two different issues, I would say the residential area is continuing to shine (although slower and more steady) where Main St has spurts of active areas. One of the biggest issues are landlords thinking they can "get a good price" and second (and most critical) is the redesign of Main St. Whoever added the horrible median (without any pedestrian crossthroughs) destroyed a lot of opportunities Main St. may have had :-(
Yes Springield has been regressing since Louise DeSpain's Reign of Terror. This all traces back to SPAR.
At this point, the market needs to turn around. But I think it really says something that Springfield is about the only place anywhere that actually lost housing stock during the biggest Florida real estate boom ever. Not to mention losing most of its commercial stock as well. Good job SPAR.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 02, 2011, 08:45:56 PM
Yes Springield has been regressing since Louise DeSpain's Reign of Terror. This all traces back to SPAR.
At this point, the market needs to turn around. But I think it really says something that Springfield is about the only place anywhere that actually lost housing stock during the biggest Florida real estate boom ever. Not to mention losing most of its commercial stock as well. Good job SPAR.
Yes, I know there is a lot of SPAR-bashing here, but I really do think they are part of the problem & disconnected from reality. I'm not saying they don't do some good & that they don't need to exist, but just not to be so stifling.
It seems like they (and some others in the area) have this image of what they want Springfield to be, but it doesn't line up with what it actually is. I don't understand their reasoning for say, not allowing something like a simple awning on your storefront business when there are so many abandoned buildings on Main that look like they're ready to topple over. It doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense & you'd think they'd be open to damn near anything at this point.
They really just need to let go & let things happen naturally. There are people like me who want to do things & want to breathe some new life into the area. Sure, we may not be loaded or be some big time investor, but that doesn't mean we don't have good ideas & couldn't offer good products, etc.
At this point, they really need to just play more of a hands-off role & let things happen.
My thoughts:
I think residential real estate is strong in Historic Springfield. Springfield Chicken can verify this with real estate data, she has on another thread here.
Commercial Real Estate sucks. Main Street is filled with abandoned blight and you are right, most folks aren't welcome there. Either they don't fit the mold, or the price is ridiculous and keeps everyone away. Now that said, I did a walking survey of Main Street from 4th to 8th Street, both sides, and the buildings themselves were in damn good condition. The one in the worse shape was the former site of Boomtown. The Fat Cat Grocery buiding is for sale and at last look it was under $150,000, that's reasonable as it is in good condition.
Without a doubt, Main Street needs to be taken by the balls and brought to life. It is beyond Dire Straits and in order for Springfield to grow, we need a vibrant Main Street, and having a vibrant 8th Street wouldn't hurt either. Someone needs to get out there and negotiate with owners and woo potential businesses to come. And truth be told, I will go out there and do it myself with the support of friends and neighbors if the people in the position to do so don't do it.
And FYI, demolitions are at a halt. We could not stop emergency demolitions, but we did stop the rest. I'm told in February, the city will present their plan for mothballing. We've added our input (Preservation SOS,) and eagerly await the city's actions to preserve our historic homes, and intend to support the process of mothballing to the best of our abilities.
Yes I agree with uptowngirl that main st and the residential part are like totally different. Main street is suffering but the residential is looking good.
I ve been putting a lot of research on this because I probably will be buying there. But at least the uptown market place is taking off on main street!
Well, sorta...
The thing I was referring to was that Springfield is the only area of town...maybe the whole state actually...where, despite the biggest real estate boom in history, the asinine behavior of SPAR actually wound up costing the neighborhood several hundred units of SFR housing stock plus probably a 100+ more apartment units (in multifamily buildings).
There have been 300+ demolitions in the past several years, and when you subtract SRG's 90 or so new houses from that figure, then this is truly the only area I can think of that managed to come out the other side of the biggest real estate boom in history with less to show for it than what it started with.
And when you look at commercial property, it's even worse. Before DeSpain took over, Main Street was full of businesses. Bars, restaurants, pawn shops, a secondhand furniture store. These weren't SPAR's "right" kind of people though. So they ran them all off and demolished half the buildings, in anticipation of that Starbucks Craig VanHorn promised. Well we see how that turned out. Yes there is Bissette's one new building, but that hardly makes up for the rest of the street that is vacant.
Seriously, this is a failure of truly epic proportions.
Gator.
I agree.
We are in "clean up the messes" mode.
Ah hem.
Clean up the "BIG ass messes" mode.
A plan of action is needed for Main Street that will make it viable and welcoming, needed like yesterday.
I am happy to hear this discussion. It is definitely an honest, necessary hard look. I'm glad that the more progressive design for that one house was approved a while back. Springfield needs whatever it can get at this point, commercially, and imo residentially. If every house and commercial building winds up looking like SRG did it when all is said and done, then that will be one boring neighborhood!
I also think to a much smaller degree, but to a degree, that RAP sets Riverside and Avondale back. Keep the history worth keeping that we do have, but my God let's get some fresh, funky new stuff going on and some more urban, denser redevelopment.
I think there are wonderful opportunities for warehouse style dining in the Springfield area, but SPAR would never allow something like that. I guess Jacksonville won't be getting any cool new restaurants, lofts, or stores any time soon.
Quote from: simms3 on January 02, 2011, 10:45:47 PM
I am happy to hear this discussion. It is definitely an honest, necessary hard look. I'm glad that the more progressive design for that one house was approved a while back. Springfield needs whatever it can get at this point, commercially, and imo residentially. If every house and commercial building winds up looking like SRG did it when all is said and done, then that will be one boring neighborhood!
I also think to a much smaller degree, but to a degree, that RAP sets Riverside and Avondale back. Keep the history worth keeping that we do have, but my God let's get some fresh, funky new stuff going on and some more urban, denser redevelopment.
I think there are wonderful opportunities for warehouse style dining in the Springfield area, but SPAR would never allow something like that. I guess Jacksonville won't be getting any cool new restaurants, lofts, or stores any time soon.
Thanks. I wasn't sure how this thread would be perceived, so I'm glad people are acknowledging the issues & talking about them. Its healthy.
I do think a lot of the posters here though might be of a different, more "open" breed than a lot of the powers that be in Springfield. Meaning we're more open to funky development & such.
I agree with you though. It needs a fresh vibe & more "weirdness". In my experience, up & coming areas such as Springfield always go through that phase first before they get "higher end". The eccentrics get first crack, make it cool & hip without a lot of rules & regulations forced down their throats, then everything else falls into place afterwards. It seems like Springfield wanted to skip over that step & go from Cracktown directly to a DC Georgetown-like status. It tried to go too hard too fast, so it's no wonder it crashed hard as well. At least that's the way I see it.
My point is, we have to let go of that now & start fresh. It's really the only way we can move forward. So that means that a lot of people may have to give up that "Georgetown dream" (at least for now) & just concentrate on getting in fresh faces & fresh business ideas. Even if that means that those said people don't fit the mold that a lot of residents/SPAR want.
At this point I don't think SPAR is going anywhere. I am a SPAR member and they don't always speak for me. A concerned group of citizens can go a long way. You are right Stephen, it's easy, but some folks need to get out of the way.
Also, I agree peestandingup. Main Street needs a fresh vibe, some weirdness.
I got a good impression from them when I've talked them. I'm toying with the idea of opening a guitar shop and they were excited. But it would be 2012 probably if everything works out spheres to a prosperous new year! One thing at a time! Iloveinonia how long have you lived there?
Quote from: peestandingup on January 02, 2011, 11:15:09 PM
Quote from: simms3 on January 02, 2011, 10:45:47 PM
I am happy to hear this discussion. It is definitely an honest, necessary hard look. I'm glad that the more progressive design for that one house was approved a while back. Springfield needs whatever it can get at this point, commercially, and imo residentially. If every house and commercial building winds up looking like SRG did it when all is said and done, then that will be one boring neighborhood!
I also think to a much smaller degree, but to a degree, that RAP sets Riverside and Avondale back. Keep the history worth keeping that we do have, but my God let's get some fresh, funky new stuff going on and some more urban, denser redevelopment.
I think there are wonderful opportunities for warehouse style dining in the Springfield area, but SPAR would never allow something like that. I guess Jacksonville won't be getting any cool new restaurants, lofts, or stores any time soon.
Thanks. I wasn't sure how this thread would be perceived, so I'm glad people are acknowledging the issues & talking about them. Its healthy.
I do think a lot of the posters here though might be of a different, more "open" breed than a lot of the powers that be in Springfield. Meaning we're more open to funky development & such.
I agree with you though. It needs a fresh vibe & more "weirdness". In my experience, up & coming areas such as Springfield always go through that phase first before they get "higher end". The eccentrics get first crack, make it cool & hip without a lot of rules & regulations forced down their throats, then everything else falls into place afterwards. It seems like Springfield wanted to skip over that step & go from Cracktown directly to a DC Georgetown-like status. It tried to go too hard too fast, so it's no wonder it crashed hard as well. At least that's the way I see it.
My point is, we have to let go of that now & start fresh. It's really the only way we can move forward. So that means that a lot of people may have to give up that "Georgetown dream" (at least for now) & just concentrate on getting in fresh faces & fresh business ideas. Even if that means that those said people don't fit the mold that a lot of residents/SPAR want.
Lol, we already had weirdness aplenty. I remember sitting on Main Steet on a big shabby plush couch drunk as a skunk watching a dozen naked people prancing around doing improv theatre while the audience drank absynthe and nobody batted an eyelid. That was 2003. 8 years later, the social climbers at SPAR have managed to demolish 1/3rd of the neighborhood and turn the other 2/3rds of it into some kind of recreation of a suburban Kentucky slum. They're still waiting on thar Starbucks I guess. That restaurant is now gone, along with everything else that was on Main. The owner still lives in the area but I don't know if wild horses could get him open back up there after what happened to him at SPAR's hands.
Not trying to belabor the point here, but your ideas aren't exactly novel. They were in place and the neighborhood was really taking off, then The Reign of Terror came to town and it's been where it's ?been at ever since. There is a crew of people who need to do the right thing and step aside. The arts community had jumped into Springfield with both feet, and so had the restauranteurs and small business people. SPAR ran all of them off and cost many their livelihoods. This isn't a huge town, these folks aren't coming back until that crew steps aside. The main instigator left, but many others remain.
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 02, 2011, 11:46:30 PM
I got a good impression from them when I've talked them. I'm toying with the idea of opening a guitar shop and they were excited. But it would be 2012 probably if everything works out spheres to a prosperous new year! One thing at a time! Iloveinonia how long have you lived there?
That's great news!!! I bought my first house in Springfield during the summer of 2007, on Ionia of course!!!
And letters and numbers, you certainly don't need SPARs permission to open up a store. Gator's point (correct me Chris,) is that you do need their blessing or you will be "car washed."
I don't think "regressing" is the right word. Maybe "stagnating". Much of it was already said above:
- Main Street, and overall the commercial development, is a mess. Sadly, I think the Main Street reconstruction which was THE big infrastructure project in Springfield over the last few years, has been botched. No way to redo this for the next decade+
- The residential market is ok and in "cleanup mode". You can actually buy houses now and have a prayer to make money if you restore them. This was impossible a few years ago.
- Of course we got the "walk away" houses that are a big problem and will require some bold rethinking on the city's end.
- SPAR was too late to the party after the real estate market tanked, in part hoping to be able to whitewash the problem. The initial vision to "demo and rebuild Disney style" didn't pan out in the current market. But it is not SPAR or Louis's fault alone. SPAR and SRG would probably both have done a lot better if they would have acted as checks and balances for each other. In the process, SPAR missed the transformation happening in the population of Springfield, and misread the changes it did detect. But the great thing about Springfield is that we don't need anybody to tell us what to do. People in general just go and do it.
I think Springfield still has a lot going for it. To me, the #1 concern is density. With land being "free" right now I can see people building on larger lots which will hurt Springfield in the long run. My predication is that Springfield will be functionally more like a suburb. Springfield should be a place where you still get more house then you could afford otherwise if you are willing to take on an old ruin and bring it back to live in a large part due to your own work. It won't be a "get rich quick" place for flippers of old houses or new construction in the foreseeable future. I don't think we will see a lot of single family houses exceeding $300k anytime soon aside from the odd special gem (inflation adjusted: never?). Springfield is still a place where you can find a distinct "home", not just a box to sleep in. Its a place where you can be yourself, not worrying too much about what your neighbors are thinking about the comfy couch on your front porch, the chicken in your back yard or the old water pipes and electrical insulators, or wine bottles you use as yard decoration.
A vintage cartoon from Robespierre's days. I see some striking resemblances...
(http://apwhod09.pbworks.com/f/rot1.bmp)
There are many reasons Main Street is a waste land. Businesses on Main Street paid dearly for the beautiful road we have now. Construction, bad local politics, hostility, mismanaged grants...all of it has played a role.
The economy and construction were factors that we could do nothing about. The others are within our control. Now is the time to do the things we can.
Quote from: sheclown on January 03, 2011, 08:30:48 PM
There are many reasons Main Street is a waste land. Businesses on Main Street paid dearly for the beautiful road we have now. Construction, bad local politics, hostility, mismanaged grants...all of it has played a role.
The economy and construction were factors that we could do nothing about. The others are within our control. Now is the time to do the things we can.
Yeah, but did the hostility & neighborhood politics scare off potential business for good?? I guess there's no way to really answer that question & only time will tell, but I imagine it's gonna be a rough road ahead.
Riverside/5 Points I noticed has seen a lot of business closings lately & empty storefronts. Not to the degree of Main, but it still makes you wonder if that area (an area that's consider to have "made it" & one that's attractive for new businesses) is having trouble, it's probably not a good sign for an up & coming business district like Main.
But then again, 5 Points has always had a big turnover rate. At least what I've noticed.
I don't personally think "business has been scared off for good." BUT, there will be challenges. Folks need to be "allowed" to open up shop for whatever they wish. We need folks to take a chance on Springfield, despite all the bad rap in regards to Main Street and Commercial "development." We do need something aggressive to get it open and rolling. People need to be helped and supported. Period. Do I think it's a big deal? No. SPAR can't do it, they've proven that and more. A concerned group of residents and businesses and friends need to take it on.
Can someone give 2,3 or more examples of businesses that were actively discouraged by SPAR from opening, other than the Car Wash?
The thrift store was trashed on the forums:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5752.0.html
and code enforcement was called on us (by SPAR according to code enforcement) because we had a sandwich board out on the sidewalk.
I remember for a while, there was a push to demolish the Park View Inn, despite the owner's attempts over the years to renovate it. Fortunately, it now appears that everyone is backing the latest renovation effort.
They boycotted the new thrift store on Main, do a search for the 30 page thread on that one to see SPAR's attitude at its worst. They all posted here. They boycotted the BP station and tried to have it shut down because the manager let someone put a "rooming house" flyer up. They ran off the proposed grocery store across from old Boomtown (the pink building) by submarining them with COJ complaints right before their opening. Cost those folks their life savings. They have tried to have Strider's sober house shut down for 7 years running, with code call in campaigns. I think the guy had a code inspection every 2 weeks for years and they still kept calling BS complaints in.
I can go indefinitely with this, there are probably a hundred examples, and they did it to me personally as well. They had a dozen+ of my properties condemned in 2 days and the tenants kicked out, by looking up my name on the tax rolls and calling in dozens of bogus complaints. My crime? I had put up a sign on one of my buildings advertising rooms for rent, which were actually in my (legal) rooming house off McDuff (not even in Springfield). They never called to ask, though. They secretly lobbied to get Stephen Dare's commercial building demolished right before its redevelopment into stores and loft space started.
You asked for a handful of examples, so there you go. When you get a group of 90 year olds together and give them telephones, an unlimited gin supply, and nothing better to do with their time, it's amazing how dangerous that group can be to everyone else's livelihood. Lol, even COJ wasn't immune from the BS, right before DeSpain's departure they were trying to have Joel McEachin (COJ's historic preservation director) fired because he wouldn't approve the demolition of all the historic structures SPAR wanted demolished, since there was nothing structurally wrong with them. It was actually those emails that wound up forcing DeSpain out.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 04, 2011, 08:32:23 AM
I remember for a while, there was a push to demolish the Park View Inn, despite the owner's attempts over the years to renovate it. Fortunately, it now appears that everyone is backing the latest renovation effort.
Of course they switched sides, since they're probably planning on taking credit for it once its done...
you know i dont know. I mean im serious about opneing a guitar shop and they were very supportive and offered business counseling and information on tax incentives and grants. I met the owners of Sweet petes and they had nothing nice things to say about thier help too. they said a new business was moving in their downstairs area too because I mentioned the construction on the first floor. so I dont get it? i mean it seems to me like they want to help and they talked to me for a while about what things they are planning and can offer. maybe it was just the times? i mkean a few years ago having a starbucks and panera was a real possibility the way the markets were booming. now its not and maybe that chnaged things. i dont know. really i dont know about all of that stuff you mentioned but ive been pleased with them so far. geez the new director there even called 2 building owners for me to see about availability and rent. maybe the old director just had bad ideas about commerical. im supposed to stop by later in the week to get all that tax information and ill get the scoop for you guys. investgative reporter!
Well they recently had a change in the executive director position, when the old one got busted tearing down the historic properties she was supposed to be protecting. Since then I think everyone is in "wait and see" mode. I have to say it's been business as usual so far, with that zoning appeal they filed as a last ditch effort to try and stop the car wash from reopening. Doesn't speak to much of a new leaf to me. But if you're finding them helpful, then I'm glad it's working out for you. You must be an upper middle class white guy/gal judging by SPAR's level of helpfulness.
SPAR Council itself is not really to blame as much as it is both the past ED and many of the board members, past and present, and primarily the membership that supports them, you need to worry about. The small group that is within Springfield that is part of SPAR Council that hinders this area much more than it helps. It is their ideas of what Springfield should or should not be that is the issue. It is that group that Stephen and the rest of us speak of; it is that they work through SPAR Council that ends up making SPAR Council the bad guy here.
And Stephen, you missed an important business that has seen the boycotts in action. Three Layers. From the owner's mouth to our ears at a SAMBA meeting. It was not stated as SPAR Council, but this small group that works through SPAR Council that he spoke of.
However, all that being said, SPAR Council gets a grant from LISC to do the commercial Corridor work and I have to say that very little value has been gained from their efforts to date. I believe it is the influence of that small group, which indeed does include some of the board members. Until that changes, we will struggle. Until the organization embraces all of the existing and potential business, include many they do not like, we will continue to struggle Until the grant money from LISC is used for all of Springfield's benefit, not just a few favored businesses, we will continue to struggle.
As a relative newcomer to Springfield (almost a year) I've heard a lot about the past actions of SPAR. But what I've seen since I've been here is mostly that it's trying to do good things for the neighborhood. Is it perfect? Nope, but what is? We just became members last month. I figure the more people who have a voice in what goes on, the better. I'm hopeful that in 2011 we see positive results from all areas of the community - the old groups and the newer ones like Preservation SOS as well. We all want the end result to be positive growth that benefits the residents and businesses in the community, lower crime, more preservation, etc. I believe it will happen!
Letters:
I love the idea of a guitar shop. Kudos.
I also am pleased to hear that SPAR is supporting your efforts. They should be and I am glad for that.
I think as Gator said many of us are just in a "sit and wait" position. See what they do, if indeed they do/have turned a new leaf.
And yes Chicken is right, we all want the end result to be beneficial and positive for Springfield.
Main Street needs to be a Main Street pronto. Welcome businesses, all of them. Everyone.
Quote from: iloveionia on January 04, 2011, 01:08:20 PM
Main Street needs to be a Main Street pronto. Welcome businesses, all of them. Everyone.
Agreed.
What happened to the garden shop that was going to open at the old Zombie Bike Shop?
As a result of these constant negative threads about my neighborhood I have decided to move out of Springfield!
Quote from: fsujax on January 04, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
As a result of these constant negative threads about my neighborhood I have decided to move out of Springfield!
Can you take SPAR with you? We'll all chip in for the plane tickets...
Hey Chris I will sell you my house! I might even give you a special deal!
We recently moved to Springfield and love it! It is the most friendly 'hood we've lived in. We also joined SPAR in the hopes that the more members they have, the more they will reflect the majority view of those living in the area. I think most residents welcome any business coming into Main Street, or to any of the vacant commercial buildings scattered around Springfield. The more the merrier! We need a vibrant community with a variety of quirky stores.
the problem with people joining SPAR as soon as they move in is that they really don't have the slightest idea what's goïng on. how can newcomers say 'yes, this is good' or 'no, this is terrible' with the incredibly meager sense ov context that comes with beïng a newcomer?
i'm not saying i hate newcomers to springfield (i do by default, but we've been getting some pretty awesome people in the past couple years)--i just think new people should sit back and watch for a while before adding their voices to the chaos.
fsu, you are not moving. You love Springfield like we all do.
Springfield's commercial corridor needs desperate attention and love.
Springfield is a GREAT neighborhood of friends and neighbors, is very social and offers a myriad of events and groups to get involved in.
I love it's "rawness." For me it was truly a serendipitious find.
As a Realtor who has specialized in the Springfield market for almost 7 years now, I will state emphatically that Springfield most certainly is NOT regressing. In fact, over the past year, it has seen a slight increase in value. The housing bust that hit the entire country has been good for Springfield and the residential market is seeing a ton of new home buyers move in.
I have lived in Springfield for, wow, 8 years now (how the time goes by) and all I have seen is progression. Yeah, businesses have come and gone, as they do in lots of neighborhoods - but new ones keep opening. In my mind, Springfield would be regressing if home buyers stopped buying and investors were the only buyers we were seeing. Or if businesses stopped opening. If people stop trying. That is regression in my mind. The fact that so many people are still inspired by this little neighborhood is all good and points to a positive future.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on January 04, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
the problem with people joining SPAR as soon as they move in is that they really don't have the slightest idea what's goïng on. how can newcomers say 'yes, this is good' or 'no, this is terrible' with the incredibly meager sense ov context that comes with beïng a newcomer?
i'm not saying i hate newcomers to springfield (i do by default, but we've been getting some pretty awesome people in the past couple years)--i just think new people should sit back and watch for a while before adding their voices to the chaos.
I recently moved to Springfield, but have lived in Jacksonville for almost 20 years. How long do you have to live here before you are allowed to do more than just "sit back and watch"?
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on January 04, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
the problem with people joining SPAR as soon as they move in is that they really don't have the slightest idea what's goïng on. how can newcomers say 'yes, this is good' or 'no, this is terrible' with the incredibly meager sense ov context that comes with beïng a newcomer?
i'm not saying i hate newcomers to springfield (i do by default, but we've been getting some pretty awesome people in the past couple years)--i just think new people should sit back and watch for a while before adding their voices to the chaos.
So how long have you lived in Springfield??
Quote from: Kiva on January 04, 2011, 05:10:01 PM
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on January 04, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
the problem with people joining SPAR as soon as they move in is that they really don't have the slightest idea what's goïng on. how can newcomers say 'yes, this is good' or 'no, this is terrible' with the incredibly meager sense ov context that comes with beïng a newcomer?
i'm not saying i hate newcomers to springfield (i do by default, but we've been getting some pretty awesome people in the past couple years)--i just think new people should sit back and watch for a while before adding their voices to the chaos.
I recently moved to Springfield, but have lived in Jacksonville for almost 20 years. How long do you have to live here before you are allowed to do more than just "sit back and watch"?
How long? Long enough to learn about SPAR before joining and then telling people how great they are. We know better.
And if you did your due diligence and knew everything and then joined anyway, then yikes!
Springfielders are the most passionate people I've ever been around! In less than a year I've watched this group take on and win against the city and EPA over the ash issue, made progress with the city on demolitions, run off a church activity for the homeless, and a bunch of other stuff. I see new businesses opening, thriving and expanding. I see buyers who want to live in Springfield, not just flip Springfield, buying homes. I see everything from mommies' groups, to kickball groups, to pet rescue, to gardening, to Halloween, to beer and wine drinking. How can any place compete with Springfield? That ain't regressing in my book.
Regressing may have been the wrong word choice, though not mine.
Springfield rocks in my book.
Rocks in all the ways everyone has spoken of.
BUT, is anyone out there denying that Main Street needs life? Though I did not start this thread, that is what I took from the original post, the "regressing" wasn't so much with residential, but with commercial development, particularly where it is visible, i.e. Main Street. Do correct me if I interpreted wrong.
P.S. I know Kuro can speak for himself, but he grew up in Springfield and went to school with Miss Maggie's granddaughter. ;-)
danno: my whole life, though i wasn't quite tryïng to play that card--not everyöne's 'lucky' enough to've been here since the neighbourhood was as bad as people say it is now, and i'm not that sort ov elitist.
kiva: i'm not tryïng to say there's some magical amount ov time before it's 'allowed', it just makes me a little jumpy seeïng people move into the neighbourhood and join SPAR before the paint's dry.
chrisWUFgator: as much as i rail against SPAR, i still don't think it's quite that simple. they have done some good things lately, and it probably is in part due to the new blood (well, it's damn sure not the old guard!)--hell, maybe we should all join SPAR, all hostile takeover like.
Springfield is growing in many ways. But like my neighborhood of Riverside,we all are fast losing our tree canopies.
It's time to start planting.
A lot of the Five Points canopy is currently 80-100 years old (not counting native trees)and is dropping like fly's every time the wind blows past 30mph.
My only new years resolution this year was to perfect growing cuttings of the trees that are found all around us,and possibly compile a flyer or something? I'm still experimenting so don't hold me to anything. The working poor have to make time to do anything else.
BTW..this came to me after I had to cut the 6th Cypress branch from my face on a recent job..why not recycle? I took cuttings and seeds.
We were just talking about that this weekend Ernest! Our street here in Springfield has wonderful HUGE oaks, they overhang the streets (I am on a corner), and these stupid semi's come down the residential street all day hitting the branches over hanging the street. Also the Springfield developer bought some houses, knocked them down, and then took all the huge old trees down too. When the neighbors complained, his response was-the new owners may not want them...well those totally vacant treeless lots have been sitting for years. There should be some protection for what we have, and some plan for new growth. We are discussing gorilla tree planting this year :-)
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on January 04, 2011, 06:20:59 PM
danno: my whole life, though i wasn't quite tryïng to play that card--not everyöne's 'lucky' enough to've been here since the neighbourhood was as bad as people say it is now, and i'm not that sort ov elitist.
kiva: i'm not tryïng to say there's some magical amount ov time before it's 'allowed', it just makes me a little jumpy seeïng people move into the neighbourhood and join SPAR before the paint's dry.
chrisWUFgator: as much as i rail against SPAR, i still don't think it's quite that simple. they have done some good things lately, and it probably is in part due to the new blood (well, it's damn sure not the old guard!)--hell, maybe we should all join SPAR, all hostile takeover like.
We we have something in common. I grew up here as well, Went to Andrew Jackson and Kirby Smith. Lived in Europe for several years, came back and rennovated my current home in 98.
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 04, 2011, 08:15:04 PM
Springfield is growing in many ways. But like my neighborhood of Riverside,we all are fast losing our tree canopies.
It's time to start planting.
A lot of the Five Points canopy is currently 80-100 years old (not counting native trees)and is dropping like fly's every time the wind blows past 30mph.
My only new years resolution this year was to perfect growing cuttings of the trees that are found all around us,and possibly compile a flyer or something? I'm still experimenting so don't hold me to anything. The working poor have to make time to do anything else.
BTW..this came to me after I had to cut the 6th Cypress branch from my face on a recent job..why not recycle? I took cuttings and seeds.
Ernest Street:
Where have you been? RAP has gotten the City to do at least three (maybe four) major tree plantings in the last couple of years. We've probably planted 1,000 trees in the rights-of-way - canopy where no power lines exist and others under power lines. The first project planted trees from Post to the highway and up to Acosta and up to Willowbranch along College and Post. The City is finishing up another project of planting canopy trees wherever a RAP volunteer found a space for one (he went all over the district identifying spots). Not to say we don't need to keep doing it but wanted to make sure you are aware of RAP's work in this area.
Thanks Kay.I LOVE the two Live Oaks the city planted on my tree lawn and they love all that black cow dirt that was mixed in there a year earlier ;D
I plan on planting two cypress on the upper lawn to compliment them.
uptowngirl: I like the idea of Guerrilla planting.We have to figure out how to keep exposed saplings from being mowed... maybe a chicken wire tube?
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 05, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
Thanks Kay.I LOVE the two Live Oaks the city planted on my tree lawn and they love all that black cow dirt that was mixed in there a year earlier ;D
I plan on planting two cypress on the upper lawn to compliment them.
uptowngirl: I like the idea of Guerrilla planting.We have to figure out how to keep exposed saplings from being mowed... maybe a chicken wire tube?
If the "saplings" are big enough (maybe 6ft tall) mowing should not be a problem. We planted 5 trees next to the road in the summer and they are fine. A bigger problem may be getting them watered in the critical few weeks before their roots get established. Lack of water kills many of the trees that the city plants.
I had a great conversation with the S.P.A.R. council office. They are very encouraging and I think they get a bad rap. But you should just decided for yourself I guess!
Chicken wire tube should work real well. I am also looking at some fruit tree saplings to plant, as these are pretty and edible, of course they do not really add to the canopy, but they can grow in some of the smaller areas a full grown live oak would not :-)
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 05, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
I like the idea of Guerrilla planting.
http://www.guerrillagardening.org/
Quote from: letters and numbersI had a great conversation with the S.P.A.R. council office. They are very encouraging and I think they get a bad rap. But you should just decided for yourself I guess!
I'm thrilled you had a positive interaction with spar...and it's my hope that will continue. You're coming in as a newcomer and haven't a clue as to what's been like with spar and the negative impact they've had upon our neighborhood. The former ED pushed for demolitions and we lost a large stock of these historic structures as a result. So this "spar got a bad rap" quite simply, isn't true. They earned that "bad rap" and distrust by what they did, what they failed to do and how they hurt the neighborhood as a whole.
There are still board members who were part of the former ED's regime, who were instrumental in damaging the neighborhood, or at the very least, allowed it to happen. What's promising, is, the board members who have seen the light and are making positive changes. However, until those who continue trying to
hurt instead of help are gone from the board, then I for one, cannot truly trust spar. There's issues that remain with what is taking place, and although I'm thrilled with the positive, I'm also aware of the ongoing negative.
Well, I'm with a lot of other posters here who think the thing that will TRULY set Springfield apart & be attractive is to get her Streetcar back (a REAL one, not those fake bus ones). Why in God's name they didn't do it when they recently tore up Main Street & didn't put the line in where the median went I'll never know.
To me, Main is even more of a deterrent for walkability than it was before. The 2 lanes each way & that median separating them give it more of a "highway feel" instead of a pleasant "main street feel" that one would want to take a stroll down.
Ugh, can the city throw us a bone every once in a while?? >:(
Quote from: peestandingup on January 08, 2011, 08:39:56 AM
Well, I'm with a lot of other posters here who think the thing that will TRULY set Springfield apart & be attractive is to get her Streetcar back (a REAL one, not those fake bus ones). Why in God's name they didn't do it when they recently tore up Main Street & didn't put the line in where the median went I'll never know.
To me, Main is even more of a deterrent for walkability than it was before. The 2 lanes each way & that median separating them give it more of a "highway feel" instead of a pleasant "main street feel" that one would want to take a stroll down.
Ugh, can the city throw us a bone every once in a while?? >:(
I really don't mean to jump on this bandwagon again, but you can thank SPAR for the current design of Main street. They pushed for those awful medians that force you to drive 4 blocks out of your way and then cut a dangerous u turn across two lanes of oncoming traffic to get to any destination. They removed all the bus stops, etc. SPAR's intent was to get rid of undesirables, which is how they viewed pedestrians.
The flaw in their plan is that, when you manage to make a street hostile to people on foot who ride the bus, then its also hostile to everyone else too! There is no way to ONLY inconvenience low income people when it comes to street design, we are all human and it serves as just as much of a barrier to the rest of us as to the targeted group. SPAR's actions regarding the street design are also a large part of why Main street is now almost completely vacant until after the MLK expressway. As soon as you cross under that bridge (out of SPAR's reach) you'll immediately notice it is again filled with businesses and activity.
It is my understanding (and post on the old SPAR forum board somewhere that this design was pushed because of the "crime" in the neighborhood when the original funding and planning came through. Of course by the time it was getting ready to implement and the residents were complaining about what it was doing to the neighborhood it was too late. This is most likely a common issue when non professionals get involved in this kid of stuff. It was an immediate reaction to a current issue (which by the way did nothing to fix that situation, residents did though!). There was no thought to the future put into this design. What is really awful (besides walkability issues) is businesses cannot count both sides as traffic due to the median. This is going to impact business plans!
Quote from: Springfielder on January 08, 2011, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: letters and numbersI had a great conversation with the S.P.A.R. council office. They are very encouraging and I think they get a bad rap. But you should just decided for yourself I guess!
I'm thrilled you had a positive interaction with spar...and it's my hope that will continue. You're coming in as a newcomer and haven't a clue as to what's been like with spar and the negative impact they've had upon our neighborhood. The former ED pushed for demolitions and we lost a large stock of these historic structures as a result. So this "spar got a bad rap" quite simply, isn't true. They earned that "bad rap" and distrust by what they did, what they failed to do and how they hurt the neighborhood as a whole.
There are still board members who were part of the former ED's regime, who were instrumental in damaging the neighborhood, or at the very least, allowed it to happen. What's promising, is, the board members who have seen the light and are making positive changes. However, until those who continue trying to hurt instead of help are gone from the board, then I for one, cannot truly trust spar. There's issues that remain with what is taking place, and although I'm thrilled with the positive, I'm also aware of the ongoing negative.
+1
I bought my first property in Springfield a decade ago this month. I'ts nice that someone can just move in here a few weeks ago, spend 10 minutes with SPAR, and then immediately start to lecture the rest of us on how how they've gotten a bad rap. That is seriously asinine.
Unlike the newbie, I've been around long enough to remember when Main street was full of businesses, when all the vacant lots all over the place weren't vacant, and the neighborhood was full of activity and people as diverse as any neighborhood you'd find. It wasn't always a good diverse, but anything is better than what is there now...NOTHING. All of this was caused, directly, by SPAR. I even remember when the code complaint barrages started in 2003/2004 right after DeSpain took over. I just never connected the dots until sheclown got ahold of their emails that proved it was them all along.
Claude Moulton was the force benind most of this mess, and he's still in de facto control of SPAR, as head of the board. Until he's gone, along with Lisa Simon and our dear beloved FSU813 (all of whom caused this mess and all are still at SPAR) then I'm sorry, but this snake is still a snake it just grew another tail when it appointed a new ED.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 08, 2011, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on January 08, 2011, 08:39:56 AM
Well, I'm with a lot of other posters here who think the thing that will TRULY set Springfield apart & be attractive is to get her Streetcar back (a REAL one, not those fake bus ones). Why in God's name they didn't do it when they recently tore up Main Street & didn't put the line in where the median went I'll never know.
To me, Main is even more of a deterrent for walkability than it was before. The 2 lanes each way & that median separating them give it more of a "highway feel" instead of a pleasant "main street feel" that one would want to take a stroll down.
Ugh, can the city throw us a bone every once in a while?? >:(
I really don't mean to jump on this bandwagon again, but you can thank SPAR for the current design of Main street. They pushed for those awful medians that force you to drive 4 blocks out of your way and then cut a dangerous u turn across two lanes of oncoming traffic to get to any destination. They removed all the bus stops, etc. SPAR's intent was to get rid of undesirables, which is how they viewed pedestrians.
The flaw in their plan is that, when you manage to make a street hostile to people on foot who ride the bus, then its also hostile to everyone else too! There is no way to ONLY inconvenience low income people when it comes to street design, we are all human and it serves as just as much of a barrier to the rest of us as to the targeted group. SPAR's actions regarding the street design are also a large part of why Main street is now almost completely vacant until after the MLK expressway. As soon as you cross under that bridge (out of SPAR's reach) you'll immediately notice it is again filled with businesses and activity.
Good Lord. So basically, walkability & public transportation = vagrants to these people?? What the hell. Have any of these guys ever visited a real, vibrant urban area in another city??
Well, if they really did come up with that design for the reasons you say & it's now finished, then I'm afraid they've doomed Main street since the damage has already been done & it'll likely be a LONG time before it's redesigned. Who would want to put a business there in the middle of that awful mess that discourages foot traffic?? It's the most asinine thing I've ever heard.
Main was born & bred to be walkable. Not only did they take that away, they made it a pain to drive too. Whatta plan! :P
You know I spent hours and hours talking and researching because I don't buy a house and open a business lightly. I'll just say this about this topic. Don't believe everything you read on the internet and some of these posters have crazy personal histories that are the reason for this "beef" I think. A lot of this talk on here is just crazy. I could say more but I don't like flame wars you know. But everyone can just form their own opinion. let's drink to that!!
Hey so what are the solutions on main street? Ive been looking and theres plenty of store fronts but almost all of them need so much work! Man what's it going to take there are only a few to have I think.
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 08, 2011, 10:21:33 AM
You know I spent hours and hours talking and researching because I don't buy a house and open a business lightly. I'll just say this about this topic. Don't believe everything you read on the internet and some of these posters have crazy personal histories that are the reason for this "beef" I think. A lot of this talk on here is just crazy. I could say more but I don't like flame wars you know. But everyone can just form their own opinion. let's drink to that!!
Crazy personal histories huh? Man you've been here like a month and already drinking the SPAR koolaid!
Haven't you noticed how many people say the same thing about SPAR? Even just in this thread. Do you really think that when so many people are all saying the same thing, that each one of them has some crazy personal axe to grind, or is it more likely that the problem is that the organization they are all referring to has the crazy history? How many times can random lightening possibly strike the same place?
And you clearly didn't sound that much time researching if you weren't aware of SPAR's history...
^ regardless gator, let's discuss viable solutions to bring life to Main Street.
Quote from: stephendare on January 08, 2011, 10:17:34 AM
I was there for the planning sessions, and yes that is indeed why they implemented the blockages.
No one would listen to the concerns arising from business needs. Lord knows, I tried.
It really wouldnt be that hard to fix. restore street turns between 4-12th since thats where the usable buildings are and install more pedestrian friendly crosswalks.
That would certainly help, but it wouldn't be a "fix" IMO. Pedestrians would still still be fighting against 4 lanes of traffic to get to the other side. And depending on what time of the day it was, could be very "highway-like" in nature. It would be similar to trying to walk across Blanding Blvd, as opposed to say St Johns Ave in Avondale.
If it were me & I had total control over a design that could be retrofitted over what was already there, I'd tear up the median putting the streetcar line in the middle & take the car lanes back down to one lane on the sides, which would also leave enough room for dedicated bike lanes. Everyone gets their own equal space & it doesn't discourage walkability because it's more manageable street traffic.
Basically similar to what they had there back in the day.
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 08, 2011, 10:52:37 AM
Hey so what are the solutions on main street? Ive been looking and theres plenty of store fronts but almost all of them need so much work! Man what's it going to take there are only a few to have I think.
They look like that because SPAR boycotted, harassed, and ran off all the businesses that were there.
You're presently lecturing the actual guy who started the revitalization of Main street a decade ago by opening up the first nice restaurant on the street. After he moved in, the arts community followed and there was really a nice gentrification going until Louise DeSpain and SPAR showed up and decided they wanted a Starbucks and a Panera Bread, and ran off a bunch of the mom and pop businesses, and then started demanding huge "neighborhood discounts" from the ones that remained open. He subsequently moved out of the neighborhood because of all of the B.S., and Main street in Springfield has been going downhill since that exact moment. But I guess since you researched this so extensively you probably already knew all that?
Quote from: iloveionia on January 08, 2011, 11:19:07 AM
^ regardless gator, let's discuss viable solutions to bring life to Main Street.
The medians have to go. The bus stops need to come back. SPAR presently administers the LISC and facade grant programs for the neighborhood, but as has been repeatedly discussed, they have refused to dole out any of the money to any businesses. Instead they concocted this asinine idea by where you had to get their approval for your storefront design, then you paid an exorbitant amount of money to a contractor SPAR demanded you use, and the "grant" was that they would then give you a "free" awning (that SPAR designed and picked out) if you managed to comply with the 47 pages of rules they attached, and even then it wasn't really a grant since you had to spend 10 times the amount the silly awning cost with SPAR's contractor.
We need an actual grant program to encourage small businesses to open up on Main, run by people who are capable of doling out the money without a bunch of power games and politics. Why is SPAR in charge of that program, when they've yet to fund a single grant in 3 years?
But the street redesign is horrible, and is presently throttling the commercial corridor. They made it next to impossible to get to any of the businesses easily in your car, and they removed all the bus stops etc., which eliminated a lot of foot traffic that businesses need to stay open. That needs to be undone or else I can't see how the street is going to be viable long-term.
Medians kill retail business.
Unless in a setting such as San Marco or St John's Town Center, where there are plenty of places to turn left and walk safely to the other side and where there is a wide enough lane to allow on street parallel parking next to the median AND a traffic speed that is not over 15-25mph.
To prove this point look at these examples and look at the empty retail buildings on one or both sides of the street:
1) Baymeadows Rd between i-95 and Philips Hwy (medians killed what was a a once vibrant retail corridor), not enough chances to turn left (to other side of street) AND traffic flow/speed too fast.
2) Mayport Rd., medians have not helped as promised, just made it more difficult to attract customers. Not enough chances to turn left AND traffic flow too fast.
3) Jax Beach 3rd St north and south between 2nd and 6th Ave. Same issues as above. Businesses on west side of A1A are getting killed by medians. Traffic on 3rd St is actually worse (more congested) which has probably resulted in more rear end type accidents (not sure on that, just a hunch).
I asked DOT why the urge to put up medians and the answer was: 'To cut down on the amount of accidents'
So public safety is the ultimate 'go to' reason the gov't will give when justifying these wasteful and poorly planned designs.
So, for the record: From what I have seen anyway, in this town, medians are a failure of epic proportions.
Quote from: letters and numbersYou know I spent hours and hours talking and researching because I don't buy a house and open a business lightly. I'll just say this about this topic. Don't believe everything you read on the internet and some of these posters have crazy personal histories that are the reason for this "beef" I think. A lot of this talk on here is just crazy. I could say more but I don't like flame wars you know. But everyone can just form their own opinion. let's drink to that!!
Given that I didn't make an attempt at trying to insult you, I find it sad that as a new comer and one that wants to open a business here in the neighborhood, that you'd so quickly draw a line in the sand and call all of us who aren't 100% in support of spar, you refer to those who have crazy personal histories with spar. Shame on you, making a judgment without knowing what you're talking about and without having been here long enough to know the histories. Had you'd bother to read, and actually do real research, you'd see that there's most certainly a history and it's not a pretty one when it comes to spar and the neighborhood.
Yet, the majority of what we've mentioned, we also clearly stated it was under the former ED's leadership....and that even though there's still members of the spar board who are harmful to and for the neighborhood, that most of us are supportive but do not fully trust all the board members of spar.
It's nice to be able to sweep it all under the carpet or to keep ones head in the sand...but don't go tossing insults to those of us who have been here for years and years, and who have seen first hand what the former spar ED and her regime did to this neighborhood. They alienated people, they picked and choose whom they felt were 'good enough' to open a business. As I said, there's still people sitting on the board who are detrimental to the health of this neighborhood.
Quote from: iloveionia on January 08, 2011, 11:19:07 AM
^ regardless gator, let's discuss viable solutions to bring life to Main Street.
but its so much more fun to complain about things!
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 08, 2011, 05:34:10 PM
Quote from: iloveionia on January 08, 2011, 11:19:07 AM
^ regardless gator, let's discuss viable solutions to bring life to Main Street.
but its so much more fun to complain about things!
Actually if you'll read my comments, I suggested several valid ideas for generating growth on Main Street.
Letters and Numbers...I'm not sure if you grew up here, but the past damage done by SPAR is a classic example of the "Good Ole boy club"..which doesn't bother to maintain contact with the public or read silly Forums like MJ.
I mean I won't wax it any more. Rich..privileged..retired..holding onto a 1930-1950 attitude.12 year old scotch .elitist..hate artists..mostly baptists..prude. Are you sure you want to operate a business under a microscope?
They mostly wrote a blank check to restore THEIR Springfield homes....not like the rest whom sweated,Bled,stressed,and actually WORKED on their own homes.(And bought stuff from the local Springfield Hardware stores and lumber suppliers)
See..The real restoration crew of Springfield is on these threads.
I have followed their battles and worked in and on these homes.
For Gods sake,The Pearl was "Darted" for Christmas lights? that is just down right mean spirited. and that is my last description of SPAR..
Mean Spirited.
These SPAR folks were intending to be good neighbors?
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 08, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Rich..privileged..retired..holding onto a 1930-1950 attitude.12 year old scotch .elitist..hate artists..mostly baptists..prude.
These SPAR folks were intending to be good neighbors?
I know that SPAR in the past made huge mistakes. Demolishing houses etc. But the people moving into Springfield now are not rich, privileged, or retired. Most of the new homeowners are in their 20, 30 or 40s. It would be great if we discussed the present, not the past. I, like most people actually living in Springfield love artists, we are not Baptists or prudes (come and spend time in our hot tub).
I'm not referring to the new residents...please do your research and reread my post.
The SPAR Illuminati moved into Springfield the same time as the artists,restaurateurs, and Bohemian crowd. ::)
FACT:The older SPAR members thought Springfield should be another Georgetown (DC) Starbucks..insert chain store here..etc
FACT: They showed open hostility towards struggling business that didn't fit their mold at the time...Neighbors are watching their behavior closely(do you blame them?)
As pointed out earlier they simply wanted to skip phases of gentrification...hood to scrubbed clean.
In the early days it was quite wild with the "Hood" not quite knowing how to deal with these "Crazy people" that would restore a house by themselves and actually walk to the bars and enjoy their neighborhood.
Several residents had the pleasure of having thier house burned down or damaged by some crazy crack head whore that claimed the restoration was ruining her bussiness!..Remember her!?
These restoration bogged down folks certainly didn't need some OVERLORD deciding what was correctly restored.(RAP did this in Riverside with thier hate of aluminum windows)
These same people(SPAR) made sure that many homes were demolished..
As recent as November,Some a$$hole Sic'd Code and Enforcement Bastards on the artist that was painting the boards in mothballed houses with a HEART!! (How heartless is that?)
Get the picture?
Lake?..Stephan? How and When in the Hell did SPAR get this awesome power in the first place?
I'm not understanding what really triggered the elitist bunch to move to Springfield in the first place, especially before it was gentrified? That's usually not how these things evolve & it skipped over a couple steps. I know the artist community & eccentrics were making a scene before, but it doesn't seem like it lasted long (I guess because they were run off??).
The way I understand it, that particular group (small at first, but wealthy & made a lot of noise) moved in quickly in the early to mid 2000's & wanted to take complete control of the entire neighborhood & see to it that it was molded (by force, not naturally) into their own image. Word got up to a lot of investors in Atlanta ("OMG, this is the next Buckhead!!") & then they followed suit, snatching up property left & right, half-assing a lot of businesses & restorations, etc. Bad decisions were made as the process played out, bridges were burned, real estate bubbles were popped, investors skipped town, until we're left with what it is today. It's lightened up a bit (mainly because of the crash), but many of those same people (the original ones) are still there & still in control with the same "Georgetown on my mind" attitudes, completely disconnected from reality, probably thinking "Ah, this market will pick right up & we'll just start back up where we left off".
Is that about the gist of it??
Quote from: Kiva on January 08, 2011, 09:36:06 PM
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 08, 2011, 08:30:24 PM
Rich..privileged..retired..holding onto a 1930-1950 attitude.12 year old scotch .elitist..hate artists..mostly baptists..prude.
These SPAR folks were intending to be good neighbors?
I know that SPAR in the past made huge mistakes. Demolishing houses etc. But the people moving into Springfield now are not rich, privileged, or retired. Most of the new homeowners are in their 20, 30 or 40s. It would be great if we discussed the present, not the past. I, like most people actually living in Springfield love artists, we are not Baptists or prudes (come and spend time in our hot tub).
It's not "the past." They're still running around screwing stuff up...
The bus stops were just removed within the last month or two at SPAR's urging because SPAR and its SHADCO chapter determined (and I quote) "the wrong types won't have any excuse to be on the street when there's no bus to wait for." That will prove to be the final death knell for Main street business, since SPAR already eliminated a lot of the auto traffic with those asinine medians and now the removal of the bus stops eliminated the foot traffic.
The car wash zoning appeal, where the same crew tried to stop Silas Jones from opening his car wash, was within the last 6 months. A month ago, SPAR called code enforcement on Preservation S.O.S. and forced them to run around and paint over all the S.O.S. hearts because they complained about "graffiti." I am so sick of these ignorant psuedo-lectures about "dwelling on the past" because they imply that SPAR's behavior is actually in the past. It isn't.
Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 08:04:00 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on January 09, 2011, 07:02:33 AM
I'm not understanding what really triggered the elitist bunch to move to Springfield in the first place, especially before it was gentrified? That's usually not how these things evolve & it skipped over a couple steps. I know the artist community & eccentrics were making a scene before, but it doesn't seem like it lasted long (I guess because they were run off??).
The way I understand it, that particular group (small at first, but wealthy & made a lot of noise) moved in quickly in the early to mid 2000's & wanted to take complete control of the entire neighborhood & see to it that it was molded (by force, not naturally) into their own image. Word got up to a lot of investors in Atlanta ("OMG, this is the next Buckhead!!") & then they followed suit, snatching up property left & right, half-assing a lot of businesses & restorations, etc. Bad decisions were made as the process played out, bridges were burned, real estate bubbles were popped, investors skipped town, until we're left with what it is today. It's lightened up a bit (mainly because of the crash), but many of those same people (the original ones) are still there & still in control with the same "Georgetown on my mind" attitudes, completely disconnected from reality, probably thinking "Ah, this market will pick right up & we'll just start back up where we left off".
Is that about the gist of it??
thats about right. adding of course that they oversaw the demolition of a sizeable chunk of the historic structures and had slated the demos of a couple of hundred more before the young women surrounding SOS stepped in and put a stop to it.
You forgot to mention how SPAR thanked Preservation S.O.S. for all their hard work putting a stop to all those demolitions using their own money and volunteer labor. They called code enforcement to turn in Preservation S.O.S. for "graffiti" and forced them to paint over the red hearts that they'd had a local artist paint on the plywood window boards they paid for themselves to seal at-risk properties.
Thanks SPAR, I feel so much better without all that "graffiti."
Whether you think SPAR is "good" or "evil", Springfield is moving forward.
Good things are happening through Preservation SOS, Sustainable Springfield, and SAMBA.
LOTS of cool new neighbors moving in - real estate is selling, and not just at rock bottom foreclosure prices. And the people moving in are from all walks of life - students, retirees, those with just enough money to scrape together a rent deposit and some who would be considered upper middle class. Baptists and atheists and Episcopalians and agnostics. Hanging out together and getting things done, regardless of their race, creed or sexual orientation.
SPAR has some good new board members but still has a lot of internal problems and a lot of work to do before the mistakes of the past can be forgiven and neighborhood confidence in the organization established. Not sure that will ever happen.
So why don't we start a thread about what we can do to help Main Street and Springfield move in the right direction without (or in spite of) involvement by SPAR? I know from personal experience that significant things can be accomplished with no help from (and in some cases roadblocks thrown up by) that group. Let's do it.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 09, 2011, 11:07:27 AM
Whether you think SPAR is "good" or "evil", Springfield is moving forward.
Good things are happening through Preservation SOS, Sustainable Springfield, and SAMBA.
LOTS of cool new neighbors moving in - real estate is selling, and not just at rock bottom foreclosure prices. And the people moving in are from all walks of life - students, retirees, those with just enough money to scrape together a rent deposit and some who would be considered upper middle class. Baptists and atheists and Episcopalians and agnostics. Hanging out together and getting things done, regardless of their race, creed or sexual orientation.
SPAR has some good new board members but still has a lot of internal problems and a lot of work to do before the mistakes of the past can be forgiven and neighborhood confidence in the organization established. Not sure that will ever happen.
So why don't we start a thread about what we can do to help Main Street and Springfield move in the right direction without (or in spite of) involvement by SPAR? I know from personal experience that significant things can be accomplished with no help from (and in some cases roadblocks thrown up by) that group. Let's do it.
+1000
I'll second that +1000....and I thank Stephen for calling me young...LOL
Anyway, first and foremost in regards to Main street, is getting the owners of the vacant properties to either sell them at reasonable prices, or repair them enough to rent at reasonable prices. Until that happens, a great majority of Main street will remain stagnant.
Springfielder is right. Unfortunately, no one can afford to move a business into the dilapidated buildings on Main Street at the prices currently asked for purchase or rent. Some of those buildings aren't worth buying for free, they need that much rehabilitation.
We need to find a source of grant money. Actually, we need to take advantage of existing sources such as those available because Springfield is an historic district AND part of the Brownfields/Empowerment area and we need to encourage the City to step up and contribute financially as well.
I know, lots of money was recently spent on Main Street. Well, all that cash was just flushed down the toilet if nothing is done to bring business back to line those pretty new sidewalks.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 09, 2011, 11:23:30 AM
Springfielder is right. Unfortunately, no one can afford to move a business into the dilapidated buildings on Main Street at the prices currently asked for purchase or rent. Some of those buildings aren't worth buying for free, they need that much rehabilitation.
We need to find a source of grant money. Actually, we need to take advantage of existing sources such as those available because Springfield is an historic district AND part of the Brownfields/Empowerment area and we need to encourage the City to step up and contribute financially as well.
I know, lots of money was recently spent on Main Street. Well, all that cash was just flushed down the toilet if nothing is done to bring business back to line those pretty new sidewalks.
Miss Fixit, I'm not just harping on SPAR for my health, I really wish that were the case.
Sadly, SPAR received the LISC and facade grants, and they refuse to give out any of the money as it was originally intended, instead creating a list of asinine restrictions and requiring you to first spend more money with their contractor than the entire amount of the grant, in order to qualify for it. That is SPAR's version of a "grant" program.
I said a page or two ago that they need to be removed from handling the grants, and that a committee or something should take over for them, who will actually give the grants as they were intended. To my knowledge, maybe Stephen can chime in on this, but despite having been sitting on the money for this program for the past 3 or 4 years, to my knowledge SPAR has never funded a single grant. I'd like to see an accounting for that money, as a side note.
There were several people interested back in 2008 when the program was announced, but then they stopped talking about it. When you approached some of them "off the record" you got the rest of the story, which was that they were doing their typical B.S., refusing people grants who didn't fit their ideal (racial) demographic, and coming up with a bunch of bogus requirements about what type of business you could have, how it could look, and what contractors you used, and even how much you had to spend on other improvements (with their contractor!) to show your "level of commitment" before they'd finally give you the money they had already collected that was intended for facade grants.
ChriswUFGator, I didn't contradict or disagree with any of your previous posts about SPAR. I'm just saying that we need to move beyond talking about SPAR's mistakes and get some things done, with or without that group.
And one solution may well be that some other group should be managing LISC money. I don't know if that's the right thing or how to make that happen. Do you? I think I know your answer to the first question, but what about the second?
Nothing positive is going to come from repeating the same old discussions about SPAR's failures.
Again: a LOT of good things have happened recently in Springfield. SPAR has even been involved with some of those (the recent home tour, for example). SPAR has had absolutely NO positive involvement in some of the others. Let's talk about what else we can accomplish, not about what SPAR has screwed up in the past.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 09, 2011, 11:43:30 AM
ChriswUFGator, I didn't contradict or disagree with any of your previous posts about SPAR. I'm just saying that we need to move beyond talking about SPAR's mistakes and get some things done, with or without that group.
And one solution may well be that some other group should be managing LISC money. I don't know if that's the right thing or how to make that happen. Do you? I think I know your answer to the first question, but what about the second?
Nothing positive is going to come from repeating the same old discussions about SPAR's failures.
Again: a LOT of good things have happened recently in Springfield. SPAR has even been involved with some of those (the recent home tour, for example). SPAR has had absolutely NO positive involvement in some of the others. Let's talk about what else we can accomplish, not about what SPAR has screwed up in the past.
I think SAMBA is a far more appropriate organization to receive the LISC money and to handle any facade grant programs, because SAMBA doesn't have the internal politics and social problems SPAR has. My suggestion would be for SAMBA to submit a grant application and proposal to LISC, and for the neighborhood to demonstrate support by a letter-writing campaign or in-person meetings, and see if SAMBA can't become the recipient and administrator of the LISC grants moving forward.
I mean, in 4 years SPAR had yet to fund (to my knowledge) even a single grant. It's ridiculous, and there is only so much grant money to go around. The problem isn't that there aren't grant programs, it's that SPAR has been collecting the money and refusing to give any of it out. SAMBA should take over.
SAMBA has an impressive board at this point. I'm optimistic about the group and see good things coming down the road.
Matter of fact, the two lawyers who pulled Springfield out from the ash issue are on the board. The driving force behind a new urbane design for construction in Springfield is on the board along with the contractor who is running for city council and the engineer who has made cool spaces work in historic places.
And a pastor who brought a social service to Main Street, made it a cool hip ice cream spot, and is still standing bodes well for his tenacity. Add that to a very successful candy culture maker and I think this group could do anything.
As a board member of Preservation SOS, I feel the need to state that we do not know who issued the complaint regarding the artwork on the houses we secured. Assuming it was SPAR is just that, an assumption. Unless someone else on the board knows something that they are not sharing with the rest of us, which I HIGHLY doubt, those statements are not coming from us.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
As a board member of Preservation SOS, I feel the need to state that we do not know who issued the complaint regarding the artwork on the houses we secured. Assuming it was SPAR is just that, an assumption. Unless someone else on the board knows something that they are not sharing with the rest of us, which I HIGHLY doubt, those statements are not coming from us.
I second what Never said.
Preservation SOS did hear from SPAR Council that the artwork on the house was not liked by an unknown person or persons. That is perhaps why they are getting blamed. Does not really matter in the big scheme of things.
SPAR Council has had years to make progress and regardless of why, very little has been made. You never see their staff, who are charged with the development of the commercial corridor, out and about the street, going to the businesses they are charged to help and support. One would think that getting out there and seeing for yourself what is going on, hearing from the various business owners, yes, including the pawn shop, what they feel is needed would be the best use of their time and LISC's money.
SAMBA needs a direction, in my opinion. They have been sort of searching for their place in the scheme of things for several years. With the newer talent on board and a push from the community, perhaps they can take the lead in the commercial corridor development. Brent Staton, who has been a leader primarily for Metro North but also Springfield, would be a great resource. Perhaps a sort of partnership with Metro North for something to get things kicked off?
Well then shouldn't the neighborhood sorta have to ask itself if SPAR even needs to exist at this point? I mean, I'm not going to pretend I have all the hard fact in front of me from just reading on an internet forum, but if this stuff is all true, it seems they've done way more harm than good.
Main Street's an unwalkable uninviting mess now & a ghost town, all the demolitions, the bus stops, the hoarding of grant money that's desperately needed, etc. That's all pretty bad. Sure, new members here & there might help, but still.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
As a board member of Preservation SOS, I feel the need to state that we do not know who issued the complaint regarding the artwork on the houses we secured. Assuming it was SPAR is just that, an assumption. Unless someone else on the board knows something that they are not sharing with the rest of us, which I HIGHLY doubt, those statements are not coming from us.
Ok...well I am not sure what kind of a smoking gun you're looking for, beyond the fact that;
1: SPAR called up people with Preservation S.O.S. complaining about not liking the artwork.
2: SPAR was told the art was meant to express care for the historic properties and wasn't coming down.
3: Immediately afterwards, a bunch of bogus anonymous code enforcement complaints were made about the same artwork on the same house that SPAR had just called Preservation S.O.S. and complained about.
I'm not going to get into another one of these debates where everyone wants to stare at a smoking gun and remain in some bizarre state of denial about what SPAR was up to. It's painfully obvious who was behind the bogus code complaints, I really don't what you could say in their defense? It's blatantly obvious who did it.
To me, it doesn't matter who filed the complaint. And I have no facts or proof as to who did. I will say that Preservation SOS did a hell of a lot in a short period of time to prevent all preventable demolitions and make way for legislation change for mothballing and protecting our homes. If painting over hearts saves more homes, I'll go paint over all the rest. And honestly, I giggle when I think that that is all someone could complain about, the art and hearts. From time to time I am reminded that "hey" damn it, we stopped demolitions! And I smile with great content.
A group of mindful and committed citizens can change the world. Let's go out there and do it.
Defending no one. I deal in facts not innuendo. If I know of a falsehood in reference to an organizaton I work with, in this case SOS then I will work to state the truth. As an attorney, I would think you also expect facts to build cases. Regarding #1, who at SPAR called who at SOS complaining about the artwork? Oh never mind, I'll go straight to the horses' mouth and ask the rest of SOS themselves and disregard hearsay.
Quote from: iloveionia on January 09, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
To me, it doesn't matter who filed the complaint. And I have no facts or proof as to who did. I will say that Preservation SOS did a hell of a lot in a short period of time to prevent all preventable demolitions and make way for legislation change for mothballing and protecting our homes. If painting over hearts saves more homes, I'll go paint over all the rest. And honestly, I giggle when I think that that is all someone could complain about, the art and hearts. From time to time I am reminded that "hey" damn it, we stopped demolitions! And I smile with great content.
A group of mindful and committed citizens can change the world. Let's go out there and do it.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/Kenneths%20Make%20It%20Happen%201/IMG_3113-1.jpg)
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
Defending no one. I deal in facts not innuendo. If I know of a falsehood in reference to an organizaton I work with, in this case SOS then I will work to state the truth. As an attorney, I would think you also expect facts to build cases. Regarding #1, who at SPAR called who at SOS complaining about the artwork? Oh never mind, I'll go straight to the horses' mouth and ask the rest of SOS themselves and disregard hearsay.
Why are you attacking me?
I've done nothing but try my best to help Gloria, and I was offended that SPAR would call code enforcement to report the artwork hearts as "graffiti." If you don't have a problem with insipid actions like that, then you've got a screw loose. Regarding "innuendo" you're the one arguing with me without a single fact, and you're wrong. You might consider taking taking your own advice rather than lecturing others with it, that way it winds up where it's obviously needed.
Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 03:59:08 PM
And perhaps they ride flying assmonkeys instead of cars. ;)
That leaves a mystery as to who's posting under nvrenuf's screename while she's busy providing transportation services.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
Defending no one. I deal in facts not innuendo. If I know of a falsehood in reference to an organizaton I work with, in this case SOS then I will work to state the truth. As an attorney, I would think you also expect facts to build cases. Regarding #1, who at SPAR called who at SOS complaining about the artwork? Oh never mind, I'll go straight to the horses' mouth and ask the rest of SOS themselves and disregard hearsay.
Brenda complained to me about the artwork at our meeting saying that locals were complaining about it.
Brenda brought it up at the HPC subcommittee meeting (artwork on the houses and neighbor's complaints).
Twice I have heard Brenda talk about mothballing and twice she brought up "The graffiti".
Like Nicole, I don't really care about the "graffiti" BS, I "just want to save houses."
(And I"m the one who painted the bloomin' hearts to begin with).
& Chris you have been wonderful to me.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
Defending no one. I deal in facts not innuendo. If I know of a falsehood in reference to an organizaton I work with, in this case SOS then I will work to state the truth. As an attorney, I would think you also expect facts to build cases. Regarding #1, who at SPAR called who at SOS complaining about the artwork? Oh never mind, I'll go straight to the horses' mouth and ask the rest of SOS themselves and disregard hearsay.
Why are you attacking me?
I've done nothing but try my best to help Gloria, and I was offended that SPAR would call code enforcement to report the artwork hearts as "graffiti." If you don't have a problem with insipid actions like that, then you've got a screw loose. Regarding "innuendo" you're the one arguing with me without a single fact, and you're wrong. You might consider taking taking your own advice rather than lecturing others with it, that way it winds up where it's obviously needed.
Attacking you? Wow.
When some of us said that SPAR Council was supporting the appeal of the car wash, we got told no way. We got told it was a vicious rumor. Odd thing though, a few months later the official minutes of the Board meeting came out and low and behold, SPAR Council did indeed vote to support the appeal of the car wash. Things are often just what they seem to be.
Now can we move on to bigger and better things?
Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 03:59:08 PM
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 09, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
Defending no one. I deal in facts not innuendo. If I know of a falsehood in reference to an organizaton I work with, in this case SOS then I will work to state the truth. As an attorney, I would think you also expect facts to build cases. Regarding #1, who at SPAR called who at SOS complaining about the artwork? Oh never mind, I'll go straight to the horses' mouth and ask the rest of SOS themselves and disregard hearsay.
I think you might find that common sense wasnt ejected from the legal arsenal, nvrenuf.
But come to think of it, I suppose it is mildly possible that marauding art critics from San Marco managed to accidentally drive down Ionia Street and then simultaneously all complain to the relatively hard to find building codes department about hearts painted on windows.
After all, there is a long and clear record of guerilla art critics descending like locusts on urban core neighborhoods.
Its plausible.
And perhaps they ride flying assmonkeys instead of cars. ;)
Flying assmonkeys would be an interesting sight now that we've managed to move most of the hookers out of the area. I, we, whatever, have some ideas of who was involved but since we do not have PROOF, we aren't going on public websites making claims. Just seems reasonable to me. But then what do I know, I think flying assmonkeys would be cool to see.
Preservation SOS doesn't want to be accused of making statements that we have no facts to base them on. Particularly when it comes to SPAR. We have done our best to remain neutral and go about our business of saving houses.
We do try our best to keep our nose out of things. That's all nvrenf is saying. We don't want folks to say "Preservation SOS said you (fill in the blank.)
I started a thread about bringing life to Main Street. Let's bring it.
Quote from: iloveionia on January 09, 2011, 04:52:25 PM
Preservation SOS doesn't want to be accused of making statements that we have no facts to base them on. Particularly when it comes to SPAR. We have done our best to remain neutral and go about our business of saving houses.
We do try our best to keep our nose out of things. That's all nvrenf is saying. We don't want folks to say "Preservation SOS said you (fill in the blank.)
I started a thread about bringing life to Main Street. Let's bring it.
Except I haven't made any comments that aren't based on fact.
The reality is that you're being polite about it in order to avoid ruffling SPAR's feathers, but they most certainly reported the Preservation S.O.S. hearts to code enforcement as "graffiti" and everyone knows it. Sorry, but sometimes something is just so abhorrent that it needs to be aired out and I don't particularly care who at SPAR might be offended that someone called them out on it. What are they going to do, call code enforcement on this website? Lol
And regarding Nvrenuf, she wants to play innocent these days but I don't have much use for wise-assed lectures from that particular source. The fact of the matter is that she and her husband were SPAR members and at least one of them was actually on the SPAR board during DeSpain's reign of terror when most of the businesses on Main Street closed and 1/3'rd of the neighborhood got demolished.
She was in that mess up to her eyeballs, including the "rooming house" witch hunts, which I find especially ironic as she now wants to name-drop Gloria on me. She spent the better part of a year implying that me, Stephen Dare, and others, were liars for pointing out what was going on, or earlier for pointing out that Emperor VanHorn had no clothes. Oddly I can't seem to find a few of the most notable quotables, but enough still remain to give you the general idea.
So while it's been a long year, I've hardly forgotten her previous antics;
Quote from: nvrenuf on July 24, 2009, 02:32:10 PM
Any chance of getting back to the topic of another group home trying to be rammed down Springfield's overflowing throat?
Quote from: nvrenuf on September 18, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
Um okay, I guess we shouldn't give a shit about our property values or anything that might possibly affect them?? I'd like to get rid of the ho's and crack houses, dealers & thieving addicts too. Just because you complain about one issue doesn't mean you've forgotten the others. And if I recall the question also had to do with desirability. Do a random survey of potential homeowners, given the choice of a bunch of halfway houses or not, which would they choose?
Quote from: nvrenuf on August 10, 2009, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 10, 2009, 03:39:11 PM
The truth is that there aren't that many rooming houses of any variety left in Springfield, compared to a few years ago, and that figure will continue to decline into nonexistence due to the zoning/overlay revisions (with the apparent exception of the new one the CEO of Clara White is trying to start).
The terms "not that many" and "a few years" are vague enough to leave those amounts up to interpretation. How many is "not that many" and is "a few years" ago 5-10-20? And how will that number decline if the zoning/overlay revisions continue to allow exceptions for people who weren't able to sell their house at the $$$ they wanted in these tough economic times? Maybe next year they make 10 exceptions? Then you end up with the same cycle starting over again. People won't want to be surrounded by boarding or rooming houses, they start selling, values drop and more people sell before the bottom hits. Then the city ends up losing more money from the falling tax values.
Quote from: nvrenuf on October 30, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 30, 2009, 08:06:45 PM
The pros are that it is a use for an abandoned building and will bring walking traffic to the neighborhood as well as give people a possibility of stopping without makin uturns.
How does a car wash help to bring walking traffic to the neighborhood? Honest question. Is the hope that they will go across to 3rd & Main or to 6th & Main? Or that some stores will open in the nearby area where they can shop? Otherwise I don't see how a specifically car-related business would bring walking traffic. I would suspect most people would just wait in the convenience store like at Car Spa. I rarely see people leave there to shop at Regency across the street.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 05, 2009, 02:32:54 PM
Panera opening in Springfield = good
I mean, if you want to see a real miniseries on everything asinine that was wrong with SPAR and on the ideology that destroyed Springfield, just go back 2 years or so and start reading Nvrenuf's post history. So pardon me if I'm not prepared to accept a wise-assed lecture from this recently-come-to-Jesus former cause of the problem.
Especially when so much of it turns out to be total fabrication. Case in point;
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 11, 2010, 04:13:46 PM
As to the 2007 'we hate the car wash SPAR conspiracy'. At the time I was a SPAR member and I can tell that I never received a phone call, email, telepathic emission, smoke signal or even organized flatulence that informed me as a SPAR member that I should be contacting ANYONE about the car wash. At the time there were far more than 5 SPAR members, so if only 5 called in then it was a pretty crappily executed conspiracy.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 11, 2010, 04:13:46 PM
So the conspiracy conversation is more of the same shite, different day. It really does NOT apply to every discussion about Springfield. But please do continue to carry on with the ubiquitous tripe.
Obviously, we know how true all of that was, following release of SPAR's meeting minutes where they actually all took a vote to file a zoning appeal to stop the new business from opening. Not to mention Silas Jones' open letter to COJ wherein he listed the dates, times, and names of the SPAR members who had called in bogus code enforcement complaints (some of them 5 or 10 times each within the span of a day). Or this;
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 06, 2009, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2009, 03:28:44 PM
Doug V., did you circulate a petition against rooming houses at the last Shadco meeting?
sheclown, I was at the meeting and one was not circulated.
We all know how that one turned out. SHADCO did in fact circulate an anti-rooming house petition, and SPAR jumped the shark and actually circulated an anti-rooming house petition with the name on the form covered up and told people it was a "sign in sheet" to get them to sign it. Seriously this stuff is mind-boggling.
To her credit, 2010 was definitely a new leaf, and she's done the right thing since then as far as I can tell, and has certainly assisted with Preservation S.O.S. and from word of mouth has evidently done a complete 180 on all of her former SPARbarian positions. But I guess I take issue with the assertion that a year of good behavior somehow qualifies her to lecture me on this sort of thing, when the last several years have gotten me quite accustomed to receiving her lectures and to their mostly being absolute BS. Especially when I always did the right thing, and never needed a come to Jesus moment. Being agnostic, I'm not required to believe in absolute and instant forgiveness just because one asks. I do have a functioning memory, after all. And if I only had a dollar for every time Nvrenuf has implied I'm a liar or didn't know what I was talking about, only to wind up being correct. And, FWIW, I didn't choose to take it here. I don't post lies or make random comments not based in fact, and don't appreciate the implication otherwise.
Wow who ever thought rooming houses were good for a area trying to revitalize and gentrify? Thats sort of crazy you know! Hey man this conversation is strange!
for all of his liberal views, I really think that CWUG is a republican in disguise - he indubitably has the memory of an elephant. ;D
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 09, 2011, 06:57:51 PM
Wow who ever thought rooming houses were good for a area trying to revitalize and gentrify? Thats sort of crazy you know! Hey man this conversation is strange!
I can't really explain the past 4 years' worth of history in one post. There's just a lot more to it than that.
Things aren't always what they're labeled. "Rooming Houses" included. Sometimes labels are assigned to something that doesn't fit the description, simply because it enables people to treat one thing as though it's something else for personal reasons. And that's what happened with this issue. Sometimes people also identify a legal business as the root of all evil, simply because they don't personally like it. The fact that it's been there for years before they showed up doesn't apparently matter. Exactly like the folks who move in next to an airport and complain about the noise. Duh. There was a good bit of that nonsense going on here too.
Ha! I'm definitely being polite Gator, thank you. It IS important now with SOS. I'm a gal who speaks my mind freely, and still will, but for the sake of saving our houses I do practice being subdued and hope I am relatively successful.
Again. Good things are coming from Springfield (as Miss Fixit posted,) regardless of past acts. We do need an active commercial corridor on Main Street in Springfield. Let's move on and go discuss that, okay?
Quote from: iloveionia on January 09, 2011, 09:00:05 PM
Ha! I'm definitely being polite Gator, thank you. It IS important now with SOS. I'm a gal who speaks my mind freely, and still will, but for the sake of saving our houses I do practice being subdued and hope I am relatively successful.
Again. Good things are coming from Springfield (as Miss Fixit posted,) regardless of past acts. We do need an active commercial corridor on Main Street in Springfield. Let's move on and go discuss that, okay?
Fair enough, and I'll let it drop.
I really never wanted to take it here to begin with, but with some of the stuff coming from one particular poster I had very little choice. I know Stephen was kind of taken aback by it too. Once someone publicly has a change of heart and flip-flops on their position that they've defended for years by questioning the truthfulness of everything you say, only to later do a 180-degree u-turn and adopt what you've been saying all along, then it tends to be quite flabbergasting when they turn around and start calling you a liar or innuendoist all over again. I guess some people just like learning the hard way. How many times do you have to be right before you're right?
Regarding Preservation S.O.S., I think you guys are doing great work and you are a true (and desperately needed) refreshing focus on preservating the history and architecture of neighborhood. I love that the beautiful home on Ionia was saved, and appreciate the heartwarming projects you've done to help at-risk occupied structures. Your efforts are truly beautiful and your work is something that we can all agree on and support.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 09:30:26 PM
Regarding Preservation S.O.S., I think you guys are doing great work and you are a true (and desperately needed) refreshing focus on preservating the history and architecture of neighborhood. I love that the beautiful home on Ionia was saved, and appreciate the heartwarming projects you've done to help at-risk occupied structures. Your efforts are truly beautiful and your work is something that we can all agree on and support.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And thank you for your support of our efforts.
I am excited for the city's directional change for mothballing, in the meantime, let's get out there and save Main Street Springfield. Heading over to post on the thread now. . . . . . .
Quote from: strider on January 09, 2011, 02:59:53 PM
Preservation SOS did hear from SPAR Council that the artwork on the house was not liked by an unknown person or persons. That is perhaps why they are getting blamed. Does not really matter in the big scheme of things.
SPAR Council has had years to make progress and regardless of why, very little has been made. You never see their staff, who are charged with the development of the commercial corridor, out and about the street, going to the businesses they are charged to help and support. One would think that getting out there and seeing for yourself what is going on, hearing from the various business owners, yes, including the pawn shop, what they feel is needed would be the best use of their time and LISC's money.
SAMBA needs a direction, in my opinion. They have been sort of searching for their place in the scheme of things for several years. With the newer talent on board and a push from the community, perhaps they can take the lead in the commercial corridor development. Brent Staton, who has been a leader primarily for Metro North but also Springfield, would be a great resource. Perhaps a sort of partnership with Metro North for something to get things kicked off?
I see Brenda Boydston all the time. Who else is "On staff"?
Quote from: strider on January 09, 2011, 04:15:40 PM
When some of us said that SPAR Council was supporting the appeal of the car wash, we got told no way. We got told it was a vicious rumor. Odd thing though, a few months later the official minutes of the Board meeting came out and low and behold, SPAR Council did indeed vote to support the appeal of the car wash. Things are often just what they seem to be.
Now can we move on to bigger and better things?
Id like to see the minutes where they supported the appeal could you post them?
Hey i read thru they overlay one timev and the whole vision paper and i think i remember something in there about not recommending auto businesses is that right or did I mess up?
Quote from: Demosthenes on January 10, 2011, 01:58:38 AMI see Brenda Boydston all the time. Who else is "On staff"?
Go to their website, it should be listed there.
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 10, 2011, 06:05:38 AMQuote from: strider on January 09, 2011, 04:15:40 PM
When some of us said that SPAR Council was supporting the appeal of the car wash, we got told no way. We got told it was a vicious rumor. Odd thing though, a few months later the official minutes of the Board meeting came out and low and behold, SPAR Council did indeed vote to support the appeal of the car wash. Things are often just what they seem to be.
Now can we move on to bigger and better things?
Id like to see the minutes where they supported the appeal could you post them?
Hey i read thru they overlay one timev and the whole vision paper and i think i remember something in there about not recommending auto businesses is that right or did I mess up?
It seems like that no matter what anyone says that is remotely negative, you automatically disagree and call them crazy. So why should anyone bother to help you with doing what you can do on your own...if you want to see notes, go into their office and ask to read through all of them. I would've suggested that you take the time to read through all of the spar related threads here as well as the ones on myspringfield.org; but then again, it seems if it's not coming directly from spar, it must be those crazy people with histories, so it's not to be believed.
The minutes for some but not all of the board meetings are available at SPAR Council.org. Check in Archives.
The discussion on the car wash, the so called "Position Paper" from Claude Moulton which was more his rather than from SPAR Council, and much more is available on this very forum.
Basically though, for a time, SPAR Council leaders had a tendency to put out bad information and try to use interpretations of the laws and codes to suit their personal wants and desires rather than what they were really about. I know all too well as my name was often attached to that bad information.
What I have learned in the past few years is that those that end up calling Historic Springfield home are often passionate people who are not afraid to speak their minds. They are also busy people who have, like most of us, a lot on their plates. They turned to SPAR Council as a source of information and guidance. When they find out that what SPAR Council was telling them was not what is really true, they are also not afraid to admit they were mislead and then make their minds up based on the real facts.
For that, I find all of them great people, deserving of respect and support.
Even SPAR Council as an organization seems to be trying to get real again. As this thread shows, they have a long history of things to put behind them though. It will take a lot of hard work and time for the new blood coming into the organization to overcome that.
Meanwhile, most of us have embraced the newer organizations that can and will lead Springfield forward from here. Progress is being made in important areas and 2011 should prove to be fun and exciting times for all of us.
Quote from: letters and numbers on January 10, 2011, 06:05:38 AM
Quote from: strider on January 09, 2011, 04:15:40 PM
When some of us said that SPAR Council was supporting the appeal of the car wash, we got told no way. We got told it was a vicious rumor. Odd thing though, a few months later the official minutes of the Board meeting came out and low and behold, SPAR Council did indeed vote to support the appeal of the car wash. Things are often just what they seem to be.
Now can we move on to bigger and better things?
Id like to see the minutes where they supported the appeal could you post them?
Since you've demonstrated conclusively that no matter which horse's mouth (e.g., us actual business owners or former business owners that SPAR boycotted or put through hell) tells you what happened, you're just going to go through mental backflips to find asinine excuses for their bad behavior before charachter-assassinating the victims, I can't imagine why you expect anyone to do your homework for you? So you can insinuate we're lying or we're "crazy" again?
The SPAR meeting minutes are available from SPAR. Since you're such good friends, why don't you ask them?
People (like me) who visit Springfield occasionally and who considered purchasing homes there but who otherwise acquire much of their information about the area from the internet have this impression of Springfield as an area full of warring organizations intent on carrying out their own ideas for improving the neighborhood. Are there people in the area who are unaffiliated with any organizations, just doing their own thing? Is that allowed in Springfield?
Can you just move in, buy a house, and restore it, without having to deal with any of the local councils or groups or whatever? The impression I get (and I don't know if I'm alone in this or not) is that you cannot move into the area without having to "pick sides" and "work with" a group (which too often means "do what we tell you"). This kind of internet back-and-forth kind of reinforces this idea.
Quote from: Bativac on January 10, 2011, 12:02:52 PM
People (like me) who visit Springfield occasionally and who considered purchasing homes there but who otherwise acquire much of their information about the area from the internet have this impression of Springfield as an area full of warring organizations intent on carrying out their own ideas for improving the neighborhood. Are there people in the area who are unaffiliated with any organizations, just doing their own thing? Is that allowed in Springfield?
Can you just move in, buy a house, and restore it, without having to deal with any of the local councils or groups or whatever? The impression I get (and I don't know if I'm alone in this or not) is that you cannot move into the area without having to "pick sides" and "work with" a group (which too often means "do what we tell you"). This kind of internet back-and-forth kind of reinforces this idea.
You can absolutely live in Springfield without involving yourself in neighborhood groups and/or politics and I know many people who do just that. Most of those people stay off of forums like this, too.
If you are restoring an historic home, you'll eventually work with Jacksonville's planning department and possibly the Historic Preservation Commission, but there are no true homeowners' associations in Springfield with mandatory membership.
I agree, the arguing on this site gives a distorted and negative view of Springfield - which is why I've tried to encourage more forward looking, problem solving threads. I've lived in Ortega, Avondale, Riverside, San Marco and at the beaches, and Springfield is the best neighborhood (with the friendliest, most helpful and loving neighbors) I've found. Really!!
Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 10, 2011, 12:18:40 PM
Quote from: Bativac on January 10, 2011, 12:02:52 PM
People (like me) who visit Springfield occasionally and who considered purchasing homes there but who otherwise acquire much of their information about the area from the internet have this impression of Springfield as an area full of warring organizations intent on carrying out their own ideas for improving the neighborhood. Are there people in the area who are unaffiliated with any organizations, just doing their own thing? Is that allowed in Springfield?
Can you just move in, buy a house, and restore it, without having to deal with any of the local councils or groups or whatever? The impression I get (and I don't know if I'm alone in this or not) is that you cannot move into the area without having to "pick sides" and "work with" a group (which too often means "do what we tell you"). This kind of internet back-and-forth kind of reinforces this idea.
You can absolutely live in Springfield without involving yourself in neighborhood groups and/or politics and I know many people who do just that. Most of those people stay off of forums like this, too.
If you are restoring an historic home, you'll eventually work with Jacksonville's planning department and possibly the Historic Preservation Commission, but there are no true homeowners' associations in Springfield with mandatory membership.
I agree, the arguing on this site gives a distorted and negative view of Springfield - which is why I've tried to encourage more forward looking, problem solving threads. I've lived in Ortega, Avondale, Riverside, San Marco and at the beaches, and Springfield is the best neighborhood (with the friendliest, most helpful and loving neighbors) I've found. Really!!
You know this is funny because I get the impression that the area needs more people to get involved not less! Hey but when I brought up all this stuff on metrojacksonville they said it wasnt worth there time and they were too busy with projects and stuff to "get involved in back and forth" on here. but hey I think thats good because they seem focused on future things not she said he said stuff. Ive been on a board before and its hard!
There are a lot of Springfield residents who never go on these forums and many don't know they exist. So what you read here is only a tiny piece of the Springfield pie. Even though I don't like the sniping that sometimes goes on, I still keep up with the postings. I chalk up the back and forth to the fact that people care enough to be passionate about what they believe in. I'm coming up on our first full year as Springfield residents and I concur that these are the friendliest people I've ever met. I was a part of the caroling we did before Christmas and there were people who came outside to hear the singing that I've never even seen at a Springfield event before. They just do their thing and enjoy their home here. So you can be whatever you want to be here. Don't let a little verbal sparring keep you from the best neighborhood in town.
You all said it! No matter what your beliefs or what if any group/organization you are involved or not involved in, everyone in Springfield (even when passionately arguing a point to death!) truly believes in the neighborhood, and has a strong passion to see it succeed! I have found I do not agree with every point any organization makes, I am also extremely busy and between my job and being a single mom do not have as much time and patience as one would need to work within an organized group. So I help out where and when I can on topics/events I also feel passionate about. I would absolutely agree that the majority of residents most likely feel the same way. The neighborhood is so diverse and this is reflected in the organizations in the one square mile- everyone has their favorites :-)
I like what the following DO for the neighborhood:
Springfield Wine Club
Springfield Brew Crew
SACARC (Springfield Animal Care and Rescue Club)
SMG (Springfield Mommies Group)
SOS
Sustainable Springfield
Springfield Garden Club
Springfield Block Captains
Springfield Neighborhood Watch
Springfield Alley Task Force (although I am not sure what all this group is doing/has done but the concept is fantastic!)
SAMBA
Then there are the "nonofficial, official groups" like First Friday, Thanksgiving Wandering Cocktail Party, New Years Eve Wandering Cocktail Party, and Christmas Carrolling (which hopefully for 2011 can do a westside and eastside carroll by carrolling eachother !!!) and the Gorilla gardeners. A couple of newer one's I am excited about, but have not been able to participate in yet are the Disc Golf and they Springfield Tennis Club.
There is something for everyone here, and you can participate in all, or none. One thing all Springfielders have in common, not enough time to do it all!
+1000
Amen sister!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 08, 2011, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on January 08, 2011, 08:39:56 AM
Well, I'm with a lot of other posters here who think the thing that will TRULY set Springfield apart & be attractive is to get her Streetcar back (a REAL one, not those fake bus ones). Why in God's name they didn't do it when they recently tore up Main Street & didn't put the line in where the median went I'll never know.
To me, Main is even more of a deterrent for walkability than it was before. The 2 lanes each way & that median separating them give it more of a "highway feel" instead of a pleasant "main street feel" that one would want to take a stroll down.
Ugh, can the city throw us a bone every once in a while?? >:(
I really don't mean to jump on this bandwagon again, but you can thank SPAR for the current design of Main street. They pushed for those awful medians that force you to drive 4 blocks out of your way and then cut a dangerous u turn across two lanes of oncoming traffic to get to any destination. They removed all the bus stops, etc. SPAR's intent was to get rid of undesirables, which is how they viewed pedestrians.
The flaw in their plan is that, when you manage to make a street hostile to people on foot who ride the bus, then its also hostile to everyone else too! There is no way to ONLY inconvenience low income people when it comes to street design, we are all human and it serves as just as much of a barrier to the rest of us as to the targeted group. SPAR's actions regarding the street design are also a large part of why Main street is now almost completely vacant until after the MLK expressway. As soon as you cross under that bridge (out of SPAR's reach) you'll immediately notice it is again filled with businesses and activity.
"JTAâ€"Suraya Teeple
Ms Teeple said the Bus Rapid Transit (Rapid = limited stops) North corridor line will be moved from Boulevard to Jefferson Street. Residents can attend a presentation at the Gateway Mall on February 15th from 4:30 â€" 7:00pm. A stop is planned for FSCJ, the VA clinic and Gateway Mall. It has not yet been determined if it will stop at the pool. The bus, and other, can hold a green traffic light on green until it passes the light.
SPAR has been working with JTA on a proposal to put new trash receptacles every two blocks at each bus stop. JTA will take the responsibility to provide and maintain them and to empty them 2 times per week.
Brenda Boydston stated that SPAR has not asked to have any bus stops removed along Main Street. She also checked with JTA and found that there has been no change in the bus route for at least 5 years and was told no bus stops have been removed from Main Street. There was some comment made that maybe a change occurred temporarily during Main Street construction on Phase II (4th - 12th), and Brenda restated that according to JTA, the position of stops at even streets was the established route with public input prior to Main Street construction.
Brenda followed up on route for the Community Shuttle. There had been some discussion about a stop at 3rd and Main, but JTA does not currently plan a scheduled stop there. For an additional $1 fee, individuals can call ahead for a special pickup there or any location along the route. A regular stop would be added at 3rd & Main if there is enough demand."
You know you said the bus stops were removed by spar or something but they werent! i read the RoundTable notes up above. so whats up with that?
Quote"JTAâ€"Suraya Teeple
Ms Teeple said the Bus Rapid Transit (Rapid = limited stops) North corridor line will be moved from Boulevard to Jefferson Street. Residents can attend a presentation at the Gateway Mall on February 15th from 4:30 â€" 7:00pm. A stop is planned for FSCJ, the VA clinic and Gateway Mall. It has not yet been determined if it will stop at the pool. The bus, and other, can hold a green traffic light on green until it passes the light.
Any idea if the proposed BRT route will still run up Broad Street, through Brentwood? Pearl is the dominant commercial corridor in that area and could really use a shot in the arm from any streetscape or transit station improvements that will be made as apart of this BRT plan.
Btw, I do believe some bus stops or routes along Main have been removed. An email about this was sent to my Metro Jacksonville email account a couple of weeks ago. It included correspondence from a JTA spokesperson. I'll see if I can go back and find it.
Here is the email that was sent to me on January 11, 2011.
QuoteOn Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Wendy Morrow <wmorrow@jtafla.com> wrote:
> Stephen:
>
>
>
> I have gotten additional information on the routes we discussed in relation
> to Main Street. Let me say up front that we have been working system wide to
> reduce duplicated service on road ways and merge routes to streamline
> service. Main Street between 8th and 1st had a lot of duplicated service
> prior to May 2010. Main Street buses now come every 15 minutes along the
> route versus multiple routes which may have followed one another down the
> road in the past with longer headways.
>
>
>
>
>
> L7 and L8
>
>
>
> The L7 and L8 did travel on Main Street between 1st and 8th streets prior to
> the May 2010 service modification. There were a number of reasons for the
> change. One of the key reasons was to space the L7 and L8 out 15 minutes
> apart on Lem Turner, our primary market for those routes and to begin
> preparations for the north corridor Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) service which
> will replace both the L7 and L8 beginning late 2012 or early 2013. The BRT
> will not operate on any part of Main Street. The current L8 route operates
> the exact future BRT route.
>
>
>
> L9
>
>
>
> No change, service still operates between 8th and 1st on Main Street
>
>
>
> CT1
>
>
>
> The CT1 replaced the I6 with frequency improvements and destinations. The
> old I6 route turned around at Main and 63rd Street. Today’s CT1 offers
> service north of 63rd Street to Hecksher Drive, Dunn Avenue and the FSCJ
> North Campus. South destinations include Mandarin along San Jose Boulevard.
>
>
>
> E5
>
>
>
> The E5 is now the CT2 and includes a service extension into Arlington. The
> north segment operates along 8th Street between Phoenix Avenue and I-95
> providing a one seat ride to the Shands Hospital. The Talleyrand E5 segment
> became the Talleyrand Community Shuttle.
>
>
>
> I6
>
>
>
> The I6 service segment between 63rd Street and Rosa Parks became the CT1 and
> merged with the former SS9 service.
>
>
>
> NS16
>
>
>
> This service never operated in Springfield.
>
>
>
>
>
> All the service modifications listed above went through our normal public
> involvement process. Customers from Springfield did not complain about the
> L7 or L8 service being relocated onto Boulevard and Jefferson Streets.
>
>
>
> Let me know if you still have questions or concerns.
>
>
>
> Wendy
>
>
>
>
>
> We are JTA, an independent state agency committed to providing effective and
> efficient transportation solutions for our growing region through roads and
> public transit options.
>
> Part of your day. Part of your community. Part of your life.
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Please note that under Florida's very broad public records law, email
> communications to and from JTA officials are subject to public disclosure.
--
And now abide faith, hope and love; these three, but the greatest of these is love
Quote from: letters and numbers on February 02, 2011, 09:02:37 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 08, 2011, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on January 08, 2011, 08:39:56 AM
Well, I'm with a lot of other posters here who think the thing that will TRULY set Springfield apart & be attractive is to get her Streetcar back (a REAL one, not those fake bus ones). Why in God's name they didn't do it when they recently tore up Main Street & didn't put the line in where the median went I'll never know.
To me, Main is even more of a deterrent for walkability than it was before. The 2 lanes each way & that median separating them give it more of a "highway feel" instead of a pleasant "main street feel" that one would want to take a stroll down.
Ugh, can the city throw us a bone every once in a while?? >:(
I really don't mean to jump on this bandwagon again, but you can thank SPAR for the current design of Main street. They pushed for those awful medians that force you to drive 4 blocks out of your way and then cut a dangerous u turn across two lanes of oncoming traffic to get to any destination. They removed all the bus stops, etc. SPAR's intent was to get rid of undesirables, which is how they viewed pedestrians.
The flaw in their plan is that, when you manage to make a street hostile to people on foot who ride the bus, then its also hostile to everyone else too! There is no way to ONLY inconvenience low income people when it comes to street design, we are all human and it serves as just as much of a barrier to the rest of us as to the targeted group. SPAR's actions regarding the street design are also a large part of why Main street is now almost completely vacant until after the MLK expressway. As soon as you cross under that bridge (out of SPAR's reach) you'll immediately notice it is again filled with businesses and activity.
"JTAâ€"Suraya Teeple
Ms Teeple said the Bus Rapid Transit (Rapid = limited stops) North corridor line will be moved from Boulevard to Jefferson Street. Residents can attend a presentation at the Gateway Mall on February 15th from 4:30 â€" 7:00pm. A stop is planned for FSCJ, the VA clinic and Gateway Mall. It has not yet been determined if it will stop at the pool. The bus, and other, can hold a green traffic light on green until it passes the light.
SPAR has been working with JTA on a proposal to put new trash receptacles every two blocks at each bus stop. JTA will take the responsibility to provide and maintain them and to empty them 2 times per week.
Brenda Boydston stated that SPAR has not asked to have any bus stops removed along Main Street. She also checked with JTA and found that there has been no change in the bus route for at least 5 years and was told no bus stops have been removed from Main Street. There was some comment made that maybe a change occurred temporarily during Main Street construction on Phase II (4th - 12th), and Brenda restated that according to JTA, the position of stops at even streets was the established route with public input prior to Main Street construction.
Brenda followed up on route for the Community Shuttle. There had been some discussion about a stop at 3rd and Main, but JTA does not currently plan a scheduled stop there. For an additional $1 fee, individuals can call ahead for a special pickup there or any location along the route. A regular stop would be added at 3rd & Main if there is enough demand."
You know you said the bus stops were removed by spar or something but they werent! i read the RoundTable notes up above. so whats up with that?
Brenda hasn't been ED for even a year yet, she wouldn't know one way or the other. And the removal of the bus stops was precipitated by SPAR members discussing with SHADCO the bus stops at a community meeting where several posters on this site were present, and the SPAR members and SHADCO determined that removing the bus stops would give criminals less excuse to be out on the street. They then suggested this to JTA, which probably seized on the opportunity to save a buck and was more than happy to cooperate. But I'm sorry, SPAR most definitely was behind the removal of the bus stops.
I don't know what you think you're accomplishing? You've been here what, 5 minutes? And now you're going to come teach the rest of us (who've been padding around Springfield for a decade before you got here) how great SPAR is? Sorry but we know better. And remember we all tried to warn you.