Pseudo-rant. About my experience with Jacksonville Panhandlers. Please discuss.
This afternoon I was eating lunch with an old friend in Paneras in Roosevelt Square. We are talking about life and a random guy comes up to our booth. He asks to shake my hand. I am a little startled, and I am thinking do I know you? I am also a little bit of a germophobe so I am hesitating to shake this strangers hand in the middle of my meal. Handshakes are special to me. I don’t just shake anyone’s hand, not trying to sound snooty. Let me explain, there needs to be some reason as to why I am shaking your hand. For example maybe we are friends, we are in the same professional field, we see eye to eye on something, you did me a favor, you are running for office. If I shook everyone’s hand my the quality and trust I put into my handshake would diminish. I decided not to shake his hand. Next, I ask him do I know you? I look at my friend she seems a bit startled. He says, “no, I am homeless give me some money to eat.†I look at him in the eyes and I say something along the lines of no…
I am all for helping the homeless and the needy but there are places where aggressive panhandlng (I considered this interaction with the homeless man in Paneras to be some form of psycho-aggression, as the homeless man was trying to “connect†with me, kind of like a salesman has little tricks to ensnare you into his scheme to buy his product or give him money ) is not ok. In retrospect I should have offered to buy the guy a meal, but his approach in walking up to our booth startled me and was rude. But why us? I guess he may have saw me and my friend, and tagged us as young and vulnerable. The opposite of us sat a table with 2 muscular caucasian guys (think athletic types) and one girl. The homeless guy was black so maybe he felt intimated by them. I can imagine if I was with my family or a professional acquaintance. There is this saying that judge a man how he treats the people he doesn’t know, or the poorest person… I like that statement but after today’s experience I see where the ethics of judgement can become clouded. What if this poor man has been rude to the friend in question before? After he had left the table I had to process what had happened based on my other experiences here in Jacksonville with the homeless.
A few days before I was at the bar with my friends and a homeless guy walks in. I guess he is trying to buy some alcohol for the night. A few seconds later I see the bar tender walking the homeless guy out of the bar. This interaction between public space and the homeless seem doesn’t to happen much where I go to school. The homeless stay outside and if they do come inside an establishment they know to stay in the corner out of patron’s way. They know that they need to look productive and to blend in. They know that the workers of an establishment can identify with their plight and sometimes will even give them free food. They know that they need to smell ok. The most important thing the homeless know, is to respect the patrons and the workers who are there. It seems as if in Jacksonville there has been a collapse between the patronic space (a space where people are paying for goods and services) and public space (a place where a majority of people don’t necessarily have to pay for goods or services, such as a park). I think the bar tender knew that if he let the homeless man buy beer it would look bad to his restaurant and that the homeless guy would modus ponens- think that its ok in the future to come and buy more beer perhaps even bringing his cronies. I always think about the homeless and patronic space.
I like to believe that sometimes “homeless people†are just really rich people in disguise. These “homeless people†are just seeing how empathetically shitty and competitive the human race has become, and there some irony in that. Maybe these “homeless people†are just looking for good people… by seeing how far they can step on their toes and still receive a positive repsonse. I also like to think that “homeless people†are from the future, they can blend in easiest because no one cares. I do.
I remember a few years I ago I had a same variant of this issue in Wendys in Riverside. I was standing in line and some random guy was trying to sell me cologne. Right in front of the manager and cashiers. I kept telling him no and the guy kept trying to sell me cologne. I get it, you’re trying to make a buck, but you are making me uncomfortable. And sorry I don’t want your cologne. So it got to point where the guy left me alone and I am finally at the register about to pay for my meal. I feel my pockets for my wallet and it isn’t there. I look at the guy and I ask him if he has taken my wallet he says no. I start to question him and I then call the cops because I am getting angry at the whole stupidity of the situation. Unfortunately, it dawns on me that my wallet is probably in my car… So I go out into my car and find it. My god what a shitty situation to be in! I just accused this guy of stealing… but is it really my fault to have inductively come to that conclusion? I guess if I wasn’t so irritated it would have made more sense that if he had taken my wallet he would have left Wendys and went on his shopping spree… Later, I gave him ten dollars because I felt bad for accusing him. I vowed never to go back to that Wendys. Who knows what someone would try to sell me next, it definitely wouldn’t be a hamburger perhaps lotion? I also realized the extent that managers cared about their customers. I know its a fast food place, but you have to protect your customers and make sure they are having a good experience. Being a fast food place gives you no excuse to let anyone come and do anything to customers just because they are eating there. If I am eating your establishment I expect the place to be clean and free of irritation, if you can’t guarantee these things then you should not have an eat in section. You are slowing down the advancement of the human race because everyone will think its “ok†to get shitty service and experience, but its not. People deserve the best, because they are people. If people can see value in experience and its relation to the advancement of the human race (an advancement can be both cultural and productive) then society is progressing.
I feel bad for the homeless and the needy in Jacksonville and throughout, but for me to respect you and your experience as a person, you need to first treat me like a person. Maybe I don’t want to buy your cologne or feel awkward in front of my friends. If I don’t want to give you my last two dollars (I am a poor college student) then please respect that. Don’t look “deep†into my eyes as if my eyes are some Bank of America ATM. If I am eating my meal and mouth is full, please don’t come and ask me for money. Wait until I am done eating or ask for the straps when I leave the restaurant. There are places for sympathy.
Panhandling is an Honest annoyance. it is better than stealing,
I just shake my head when these people ask me if I have spare change.
There is no guilt denying these folks money.
My 81 year old Mother works with the Homeless and actually heard some homeless traveler admit he was given a bus pass to Florida from a Northern city he wouldn't name...just to get the hell out of Philly during the Christmas Celebrations..
He knew about our Meager Homeless food situation but came down anyway to enjoy our weather and free benefits...
Think about it. we are a Northern garbage dump...even as they are Rotting and festering, they send their "Visual Blight" to us when it's convenient.
The "homeless" here aren't generally homeless, a big chunk of them are just con men / panhandlers.
I think people need to understand the difference. The con men are generally the ones brazen enough to accost you at your table inside a restaurant without any regard for your privacy. These guys literally do view you and everyone else as an ATM machine with legs. They're the same ones who will cuss you out if you don't take 20 minutes to listen to their scripted sob story or give them money. Sorry to sound jaded but it just gets old after awhile. The 456,234th time you have some rude person demanding your time and money at the worst possible moment, you just kind of have enough of it.
The solution to this problem isn't on an individual level, it's a systemic fix that's needed...
Stephen, You are being blinded by retrospective nostalgia. Hobos, tramps, bums have always been with us. They are just more visible now since laws against "vagrancy" have been found to be unconstitutional. They also have more of a support system in place so that a life on the streets is possible.
Used to be that they were moved on from city to city and ended up in the "work camps" or the county "P" farm. Now they are in the shelters.
Also used to be that they could stay in the SRO hotels (single resident only) aka "flop houses" so they weren't "homeless" and could exist on a few dollars a day make by panhandling or casual labor.
You aren't old enough to remember the Train Man who roamed downtown in the 40's and '50's. One of the mentally disturbed homeless (except he wasn't homeless). He would shuffle along the streets pulling a string of cardboard boxes, saying, "Whoo Woo", and making steam noises. He would stop people and ask for "fares" and shuffle on. At night he carried a flashlight and his wife would finally come along with a red lantern and lead him home.
Maybe you can remember John, the Hemming Park street preacher, who would shout the gospel, wave his bible and ask people for "gifts to god". He would periodically begin to eat his bible in his frenzy and the cops would pick him up and Baker Act him for a few weeks.
The clearing out of the mental hospitals was one of the big mistakes of the '70's. Another was the closing of orphanages in favor of foster care. Yes, some of them were snake pits, but it would have been better to reform them than to close them.
I certainly don't know how to solve the problem, but it is obvious even to me that what we are doing now isn't working.
Becareful. I am partially interested in "solving the problem." I do not see panhandling and the homeless as a problem, just the by products of our capitalistic mode of production. I do however have a problem when my privacy is invaded and my own productivity as a citizen is challenged.
The guy that hit you up wasn't homeless & is just a con guy who hangs around that area. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, he's a well spoken semi groomed black man, middle aged & average build. That him??
I've seen him do the same thing at that same Panera on several occasions. Sometimes he gets money, sometimes people order him food. I told him to piss off so he doesn't bother me. Why be so cold? Because I learned enough from living in DC how to separate the truly down & out homeless from the jokers who have their prepared spiel memorized to sucker whatever they can from you.
Treat them like the door to door salespeople who ring your doorbell off when you're at home trying to have a meal while the baby is napping. Slam the door in their rude face & tell them to take it somewhere else.
On the subject of rude panhandlers/homeless. I had to go downtown to Chamblins today and parked in front of the Carling. As I was getting out of my car I witnessed a disgraceful act. A young family of four (mom, dad, two small kids probably 6 and 3) was crossing Adams Street at Laura. A very unkept man approached them from the other side of the street and obviously asked them for money. I could see the dad shaking his head no but couldn't hear what he was saying. As he encouraged his family to quickly keep walking, the panhandler started gesturing and yelling at them. As the family walked away, the dad picked up the youngest. By this time I could hear what the panhandler was yelling. He was telling them to go back to where they came from and that they would regret it.
Small situations like this are what give downtown such a bad reputation. What is the value in spending millions on Laura Street when the city refuses to address the homeless, panhandlers, public intoxication, etc. While the homeless went relatively "unseen" during Jazz Fest, today they were easily seen. What can we do to address public intoxication? How can we prevent young families with children from having an unpleasant experience such as the one I witnessed today? It is a conversation that everyone with power refuses to have.
++++1! That family will NEVER come back downtown. And they will repeat the story to all of their friends and family.
I haven't gone to the Landing for years because of one ugly experience with the young thugs who used to hang around the streets leading to the entrance.
Why should I bother? There are lots and lots of other places I can go and spend my time and money.
This whole issue MUST be dealt with before anything else can work to rejuvenate downtown. Mock Jerry Moran all you want, but he has to deal with it everyday.
Yep there seemed to be more than normal when I went down there friday.
Public intox is a tough one. The same set of rules must apply to those in a suit as to those in a ripped T shirt. The city has gotten in trouble over this before.
Big cities have panhandlers.
The problem with downtown is not the panhandlers, necessarily, as much as the fact that there are fewer people to pan handle from walking around. Odds are much greater that you are going to get hit on in Jax than anywhere else.
It is a percentage issue.
Enact policies which encourage business downtown and, like the jazz fest, the social problem will be less noticable.
We were at Chamblin's for lunch yesterday (an experience I highly recommend - great food, prices and service) with our 7 and 13 year old kids and then walked to a program at the Main Library. It was a great day, and I remember saying that I was happy to see how many people were dining at Chamblin's on a Saturday.
We did pass a few unkempt apparently homeless folks outside, but no one approached us or behaved in a way that was frightening. The only really unpleasant thing about the afternoon was the smell of some of the people hanging out in the library (but I'll save my recommendations about soap, deodorant and baths for our street people for another day).
I agree that the experience of the family described above was unacceptable. I hope that they, like my family, understand that there are mentally ill and substance abusing people everywhere.
We ALL would feel safer if there were more people shopping and dining downtown and if there were more police officers ON FOOT patrolling the area. I personally plan to start spending more time downtown on the weekends - the main library really has some great programs scheduled this summer. If everyone else who cares about downtown would do the same, our sheer numbers would make the area safer and more comfortable for everyone.
Quote from: Galois on January 04, 2011, 03:56:34 AM
Becareful. I am partially interested in "solving the problem." I do not see panhandling and the homeless as a problem, just the by products of our capitalistic mode of production. I do however have a problem when my privacy is invaded and my own productivity as a citizen is challenged.
This individual has a right to do what he did to you, a consequence of legal rulings in the 70s to remedy the abuses in mental hospitals to these perfectly sane people. Its up to local municipalities to figure out how to eliminate this very serious problem facing all urban areas. Its been around since the beginning of civilization, with several ethnic groups (Gypsies) actually embracing it as a way of life. In totalitarian, socialist counties, these people, primarily because they refused to work, were deemed sick and sent to mental hospitals. But that failed.
It pretty much comes down to something you as an individual will have to handle yourself.
PeestandingUp is one method, for me i exert myself in a less aggressive manner, because you just dont know the mental state of this person.
In particular, you must respect the persons right. The best way to converse with him (which you dont want to do) is dont say "you". Simply say i dont have anything, i cant help you, i understand your situation, but my feeling is, etc. Then cut your conversation to a broken record ) i cant help you, over and over. If the person becomes violent ( which is doubtful), then you will have to take action for your personal protection.
This is just a part of life in the 21st century.
It is good to have a family policy, beforehand, on how to deal with panhandlers. Talk to the kids about this before you leave home. Model good behavior.
I rarely give to a panhandler. I usually put my hand up (talk to the hand style) and say a very firm NO. I don't engage in any long narratives or defend my right to refuse. Once or twice I have said "do not come any closer" in a very firm voice and that is usually it.
I do understand that panhandlers are not necessarily homeless and most homeless people do not beg. That being said, if I were hungry, I would beg (I do it now, PLEASE Joe...make me one of those ice cream sundaes). I certainly wouldn't go around hungry for long before I'd be crying like a little girl.
Get a panhandling policy worked out before you leave the house. Let the kids know how you respond before the situation arises. It will reduce your stress and theirs as well. More importantly, the kids will know who is in charge.
Explain to the kids that while you understand that these people may be hungry, you don't feel it is appropriate for you to give them money, but rather you contribute to the needs of the poor by giving at church or to a charity and that charity feeds them.
Explain to them that the main reason you don't hand out money to strangers is much the same way you don't allow them to talk to strangers. It is not safe and that most people will not harm them or you, it is not a wise thing to do.
Tell them that many people are mentally ill and have a tough time. Let them know that they have a medical condition, but that they may be too sick to be treated for it.
Doing these things with your kids prepares them to live in this world.
Quote from: sheclown on June 05, 2011, 01:05:54 PM
It is good to have a family policy, beforehand, on how to deal with panhandlers. Talk to the kids about this before you leave home. Model good behavior.
I rarely give to a panhandler. I usually put my hand up (talk to the hand style) and say a very firm NO. I don't engage in any long narratives or defend my right to refuse. Once or twice I have said "do not come any closer" in a very firm voice and that is usually it.
I do understand that panhandlers are not necessarily homeless and most homeless people do not beg. That being said, if I were hungry, I would beg (I do it now, PLEASE Joe...make me one of those ice cream sundaes). I certainly wouldn't go around hungry for long before I'd be crying like a little girl.
Get a panhandling policy worked out before you leave the house. Let the kids know how you respond before the situation arises. It will reduce your stress and theirs as well. More importantly, the kids will know who is in charge.
Says it all!
What about the victims of beatings? What would you advice the Father who is struck and robbed in front of his family? What about the women who have been raped in the parking garages? Is that "just life in the 21st century"?
I realize that I am being somewhat argumentative, and I don't wish to be. But the reality is that sometimes violence is used. I agree with the methods proscribed...in public with other people (witnesses) around. But once again, we are treating the symtoms.
Are you claiming that no one has been raped or beaten downtown? Who was it that beat your employee so severly a few years back?
huh? My point was quite clear.
Quote from: stephendare on June 05, 2011, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: NotNow on June 05, 2011, 09:55:02 PM
What about the victims of beatings? What would you advice the Father who is struck and robbed in front of his family? What about the women who have been raped in the parking garages? Is that "just life in the 21st century"?
I realize that I am being somewhat argumentative, and I don't wish to be. But the reality is that sometimes violence is used. I agree with the methods proscribed...in public with other people (witnesses) around. But once again, we are treating the symtoms.
huh?
Was this family raped and beaten or were they panhandled?
Notnow, are you claiming that only homeless panhandlers commit either rape or beatings?
Notnow, you'll have to prove Stevens point.... as i said in my post, its seems to be in the hands of local municipalities how to handle this situation. In NYC, Mayor Giuliani answered the city's call to arms in terms of the notorious squeegee washers tormenting metro drivers with they re effective scam. For the most part theres no physical violence, and the best way to avoid it concerning the individuals own action, i described what worked for me over the years.
The best answer we all would agree on would be here in Jax significant increase in police presence.
But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. Hence my refering to life in the 21st century.
What do you want? A list of case numbers and victims? Suspects addresses?
What worked in NYC was a marked increase in Police presence, along with strict enforcement of city ordinances. I understand what you were saying, and qualified my questions as "argumentative". My point is that training our children to accept this sorry state of affairs is treating the symptom, and is not, IMHO, an effective solution.
What annoys me the most about today's panhandlers is that they are no longer passively sitting on the sidewalk and holding out a coffee cup for passers by to drop coins. I often am minding my own business and walking through downtown and I hear someone getting my attention. I stop thinking that this person wants to know what time it is or this person might have something otherwise important for me to hear. Instead, he gives me a spiel about how he needs just one more quarter to get on the bus, his car has broken down and he needs a dollar for gas, or he needs some spare change for a sandwich. The problem is that I do not wish to be guilted into handing over money to someone who has probably been there all day asking for other people's cash. That said, I do not think that these annoying beggars are inherently prone to rape, rob or kill someone. If downtown Jacksonville was somehow 'rape, robbery and murder central,' would there not be a bigger outcry? We assume that these unwashed vagrants are lurking behind dumpsters and in dark alleys all over downtown to fulfill their dreams of being 21st century highwaymen.
As for the real crime problem, we are partly to blame. Speaking of highwaymen, we forget that these bandits did their dirty work in the forests where there were few people to witness their activities. When we continue to resign ourselves to having an empty downtown, that is there the real crime becomes more common. Barring a Kitty Genovese situation, crowds tend to deter crime. And a busy, thriving downtown will go a long way toward really cleaning up things.
I hate it when they have the nerve to but in on me when I'm on my phone. One guy kept on yelling, sir, sir can you help me out. I say, I'm on the phone! Have some manners!
Quote from: stephendare on January 02, 2011, 07:45:02 PM
In the America that many of us grew up in, the American between the sixties and the early 90s, we didnt have the homeless/panhandler situation.
You can thank thirty years of so called 'conservatives', screwing up the city scape and making the city less manageable and more dangerous in order to avoid taxpayer funded charity.
Jeeze, three posts into this otherwise nice discussion and Mr. Know it all has to make a political statement. What an idiot. Too bad this guy runs rough shod over this forum. Never seen such a venon filled hate machine whose every thought revolves around bad mouthing conservatives. Give it a break.
As far as homeless/panhandlers go, i have to say there is probably a reason they are in this predicament. In order to be homeless, you have to have burned every bridge with family and friends for someone to not care enough about you to let you live on the streets. I think very few of them are good honest folks who was the victim of bad luck or was just laid off. Most have cheated, stolen from, lied to, etc to family and friends to be in this position.
Quote from: NotNow on June 05, 2011, 10:35:44 PM
What do you want? A list of case numbers and victims? Suspects addresses?
What worked in NYC was a marked increase in Police presence, along with strict enforcement of city ordinances. I understand what you were saying, and qualified my questions as "argumentative". My point is that training our children to accept this sorry state of affairs is treating the symptom, and is not, IMHO, an effective solution.
We re in agreement and families will have to choose whether to accept the situation or choose other (legal) options. Like not be a part of it at all, not even venture to Downtown. Even so, from what im seeing specifically as the incident itself happened in a suburban neighborhood, children will eventually run into the situation and need their parents to deal with it.
Notnow, an ideal resolution i think you would agree with is that these individuals should be institutionalized again, as in the 70s. Thats just not gonna happen. Your solution of increased police presence and enforcement is most realistic, but involves $$$$$$ and the constituiants arent gonna have it. Today.
Quote from: stephendare on June 06, 2011, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: NotNow on June 05, 2011, 10:22:17 PM
Are you claiming that no one has been raped or beaten downtown? Who was it that beat your employee so severly a few years back?
huh? My point was quite clear.
Kenny, the fellow who beat up the 16 year old kid that worked at Boomtown was neither homeless nor was he panhandling, for the record.
Working with the cops, we pretty much cleaned up Hemming Park by making it impossible to deal drugs or create 'turf' there.
This guy is the kind of person that I have been posting about. Have you seen his sheet? He, and many like him, are the regulars at many of the "homeless" and "panhandlers" hang outs downtown. They are not the majority, but they are there and will take advantage of opportunities. Downtown is not a "very dangerous place". But that is only because of high Police presence and the general lack of regular citizens. People are too smart to risk themselves. They just don't go downtown or only go at "safe" times like lunch. They avoid the hang outs like Hemming Plaza and the East end of Beaver St. Again, we are treating the symptoms and not the disease. If we provide for the homeless, they have no reason to hang out in the streets. Those that remain should conform to community standards of behavior. Only then will citizens return to downtown.
Perhaps you could put on a class for patrol officers. They could use your advice. You could go on the road and advise other city police departments of your methods as well.
Of course, I don't remember all of these victories over criminality that you claim, both on Main St. and downtown, but I would love to see your statistics.
Quote from: hillary supporter on June 06, 2011, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: NotNow on June 05, 2011, 10:35:44 PM
What do you want? A list of case numbers and victims? Suspects addresses?
What worked in NYC was a marked increase in Police presence, along with strict enforcement of city ordinances. I understand what you were saying, and qualified my questions as "argumentative". My point is that training our children to accept this sorry state of affairs is treating the symptom, and is not, IMHO, an effective solution.
We re in agreement and families will have to choose whether to accept the situation or choose other (legal) options. Like not be a part of it at all, not even venture to Downtown. Even so, from what im seeing specifically as the incident itself happened in a suburban neighborhood, children will eventually run into the situation and need their parents to deal with it.
Notnow, an ideal resolution i think you would agree with is that these individuals should be institutionalized again, as in the 70s. Thats just not gonna happen. Your solution of increased police presence and enforcement is most realistic, but involves $$$$$$ and the constituiants arent gonna have it. Today.
We generally agree. And you are probably right about the $$$$. But I feel that in the long term, we will spend less by increasing Police presence (temporarily) and reinstating the State Mental Health system.
The way to "fix" the homeless issue downtown is not to have a larger police presence. The only way is to have a larger people presence. Until that happens, a larger police presence would cause more of an issue rather than fix anything.
Many panhandlers are simply doing their jobs. Some are better at it than others, but it is often their job. I do remember an article done years ago about the professional panhandlers in Washington DC. Eat breakfast, kiss the wife who is off to a government job, get in your car and drive downtown, park it a fair distance from downtown so no one sees and panhandle for the next 8 or so hours. Then go home for a hot meal in your new condo. Legal, and, at the time (about ten or so years ago I think), about 35K a year. Not saying that is true for all panhandlers, but it does happen.
The moral is, you do not really know these people nor their issues or problems or what have you. Be leery and be smart.
Another thing is that for those who are not professional and who have real mental, physical or financial issues, downtown is often the only home they know. You like to go home at the end of the day, well, they like to be home too. Sending them off to Orange park (as an example) just makes it harder for them to get home, it doesn't prevent them from coming back home. Facilities need to be close to where they are and want to be, not where the cool kids want them to be.
We, as a society, do not want to fund the help these people need, nor can we really afford to do it at this point. Which is why it is better to come from the private sectors, like the churches who do not get government dollars to help them.
And, NotNow, please stop trying to interpret religious stuff, you aren't very good at it. At least on this thread.
I would suspect not. There is no Danny Brown. Perhaps you mean Danny Perkins. CEPTED? Really? Safety through environmental design?
In all my years of working Springfield, I never saw you doing such a thing. I have run into many, many people who go out at night in Springfield and downtown for a variety of reasons, but not you. I am sure that I just missed you.
Perhaps if you had ever put your a$$ on the line (I mean really), you could speak with some credibility on shootings.
Quote from: strider on June 06, 2011, 05:59:11 PM
The way to "fix" the homeless issue downtown is not to have a larger police presence. The only way is to have a larger people presence. Until that happens, a larger police presence would cause more of an issue rather than fix anything.
Many panhandlers are simply doing their jobs. Some are better at it than others, but it is often their job. I do remember an article done years ago about the professional panhandlers in Washington DC. Eat breakfast, kiss the wife who is off to a government job, get in your car and drive downtown, park it a fair distance from downtown so no one sees and panhandle for the next 8 or so hours. Then go home for a hot meal in your new condo. Legal, and, at the time (about ten or so years ago I think), about 35K a year. Not saying that is true for all panhandlers, but it does happen.
The moral is, you do not really know these people nor their issues or problems or what have you. Be leery and be smart.
Another thing is that for those who are not professional and who have real mental, physical or financial issues, downtown is often the only home they know. You like to go home at the end of the day, well, they like to be home too. Sending them off to Orange park (as an example) just makes it harder for them to get home, it doesn't prevent them from coming back home. Facilities need to be close to where they are and want to be, not where the cool kids want them to be.
We, as a society, do not want to fund the help these people need, nor can we really afford to do it at this point. Which is why it is better to come from the private sectors, like the churches who do not get government dollars to help them.
And, NotNow, please stop trying to interpret religious stuff, you aren't very good at it. At least on this thread.
I disagree with your philosophy about the homeless and panhandlers. Thanks for your opinion on religion, it has exactly the same standing as my opinion or anyone elses. I'll stand by my religious training and my statements anytime.
What makes you an authority on "religious stuff"?
She can't speak for herself? What are YOUR qualifications?
Sheclown, I would be happy to discuss the points we disagree on with you in private. I would be happy to refer you to my mentor in these matters, and I would meet with yours if you so wished. I am a Christian, and I struggle to walk in the path. I have some religious education, but my degrees are not in religion.
The religious discussion is a distraction, and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand about St. Pete's program. Please try to concentrate on the subject of the thread.
I will speak with my Pastor about these questions on the life and death of Jesus. I will discuss the arguments that have been presented. I will reply on the outcome of these discussions, regardless of whether he agrees with me or not.
The discussion about what to do with the homeless in our midst IS all about religion, at least for me.
But it is beautiful to sit here in nice cool air conditioning and watch some silly movie on TV.
I have expressed my views, and for the most part, enjoyed this discussion.
What we do for the least of these, folks....
Quote from: NotNow on June 06, 2011, 06:50:26 PM
What are YOUR qualifications?
If I had a buck for every time NotNow has said that phrase...
Of course, we all know the answer to the question anyway, don't we?
Chris, do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Or are you just here for personal attacks again?
Quote from: Miss Fixit on June 05, 2011, 10:02:52 AM
We ALL would feel safer if there were more people shopping and dining downtown and if there were more police officers ON FOOT patrolling the area. I personally plan to start spending more time downtown on the weekends - the main library really has some great programs scheduled this summer. If everyone else who cares about downtown would do the same, our sheer numbers would make the area safer and more comfortable for everyone.
I agree. If you travel to other countries most police officers are on foot. If they are in a car they are insulated from their surroundings.
Quote from: stephendare on January 02, 2011, 08:47:45 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 02, 2011, 08:41:45 PM
Stephen, You are being blinded by retrospective nostalgia. Hobos, tramps, bums have always been with us. They are just more visible now since laws against "vagrancy" have been found to be unconstitutional. They also have more of a support system in place so that a life on the streets is possible.
Used to be that they were moved on from city to city and ended up in the "work camps" or the county "P" farm. Now they are in the shelters.
Also used to be that they could stay in the SRO hotels (single resident only) aka "flop houses" so they weren't "homeless" and could exist on a few dollars a day make by panhandling or casual labor.
You aren't old enough to remember the Train Man who roamed downtown in the 40's and '50's. One of the mentally disturbed homeless (except he wasn't homeless). He would shuffle along the streets pulling a string of cardboard boxes, saying, "Whoo Woo", and making steam noises. He would stop people and ask for "fares" and shuffle on. At night he carried a flashlight (http://www.robustbuy.com/led-lighting-gadgets-led-flashlights-c-505_1027_730.html) and his wife would finally come along with a red lantern and lead him home.
Maybe you can remember John, the Hemming Park street preacher, who would shout the gospel, wave his bible and ask people for "gifts to god". He would periodically begin to eat his bible in his frenzy and the cops would pick him up and Baker Act him for a few weeks.
I remember them well, dogwalker, in fact I was posting about them at the same time.
We simply did not have 500 homeless women staying in shelters. And many many people were in mental asylums that are running wild in the streets today.
I actually loved the old street preacher guy. Especially on slow afternoons in Hemming Park. He got people while they were waiting for the buses.
I don't know what to say but i can tell you those guys have a very unlucky fate.
Ummm...this thread started off as a rant about a panhandler at Roosevelt Square. How did it move downtown? Just saying....
Of the times I can remember being approached for money, it has happened in the 1960's at Friendship Fountain, at Rowe's Supermarket at University and Beach Boulevard about 10 years ago (asked for money for food, I bought him a chicken dinner from the deli), at Publix in Riverside, near our home in Springfield (asked for money for food, gave they guy some food we had in the car), and a couple of times downtown. But more often than not, in the burbs.
just don't be approachable. whenever i'm out and about (downtown or wherever), i wear my headphones and my 'bugger off' face.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on May 29, 2013, 01:00:09 PM
Ummm...this thread started off as a rant about a panhandler at Roosevelt Square. How did it move downtown? Just saying....
The thread title leaves alot of flexibility (Homeless & panhandlers). I can see if it read "Roosevelt Square has a Beggar Problem".
Pick pockets. ..... often work in twos. One to distract and one to lift. The selling perfume in the line could have been a pick pocket attack.
The "give me a dollar" guys have been around Jacksonville since 1985. I wasn't here before that. But I can tell you they were in Chicago, Indianapolis, Honolulu (although less) and Cincinatti. (sp)
Sometimes the best offense is the word nothing..........or just stare. No one can stand silence.
I know, I-10. It's just that the originator was griping about Roosevelt Square, and it turned quite quickly into a downtown rant. Thereby underlining my contention that the issue about downtown is overblown, because this happens all over town.
I usually tell them I don't carry cash, smile and move on. I've done some stupid things in the past when it comes to beggars. I've been naive one time too many. Now I just shut them down. The worst is when they come knocking on my door (I live in the 5 points area), or accost my children when they're outside playing, telling them to go get their parents so they can ask for money.
Quote from: MissMinda on June 08, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
The worst is when they come knocking on my door (I live in the 5 points area), or accost my children when they're outside playing, telling them to go get their parents so they can ask for money.
Going through the children? Dang, they are really desperate out there. Someone should make a beggars handbook or something; Being humble helps, and acting overly aggressive is a guarantee to get shut down.
sometimes I give
sometimes I don't
It all depends. But I give when I chose to, and don't when I chose not to. So, I keep control of the situation. I am never talked into it. Sort of like dealing with salesmen.
Why is it that most people feel the need to lie to these homeless/panhandlers? When asked if we have a cigarette, we say "I don't have any more." knowing full well we have several left in the pack. When asked if we can spare some change, we say "I don't have any" or "I don't carry cash."
I've gotten to the point that I answer the question directly. I can say "No." and not feel guilty about it. Heck, sometimes if asked if I have a dollar I tell them yes - they didn't ask if I would give them a dollar. :)
After four years in Gainesville I never give money to panhandlers under any circumstance.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 09, 2013, 10:34:52 PM
After four years in Gainesville I never give money to panhandlers under any circumstance.
Same here