Metro Jacksonville

FDOT Proposing $118 Million For Amtrak/FEC Project

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/859220410_hz3Xc-M.jpg)

Despite being rejected in the latest round of federal funding for high speed rail projects, FDOT has proposed $118 million in state money to make passenger rail between Jacksonville and Miami a reality.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-fdot-proposing-118-million-for-amtrakfec-project

Would this also pave the way for a light rail commuter line on the FEC tracks between Jax and St. Augustine?  One that would have stops in San Marco, Emerson, Baymeadows, Avenues, Palencia, St. Augustine Airport...

I had the pleasure of meeting Kim Delaney at the St. Johns River Summit in Sept. 2010 which was prior to the Jacksonville city council introducing 2010-856 the transient vendor ban. Also spoke with her about Jacksonville and if we can have pocket parks then we can have pocket piers. Told her we don't have one and I've been trying for two years for a sponsor to take back to FIND Florida Inland Navigation District.

She was a speaker on the topic of Locally Resourceful Tourism for a Susutainable River Economy.
Her presentation fired me up.

I do not pretend to be a big rail guy. I need to ride the skyway again. Maybe a streetcar would be better. But her focus was on TOURISM.

She showed the old historic buildings along some of the train stop routes. After her presentation she mentioned that if the old Prime Osborn was returned back to a destination stop for Amtrack then it could be a hub for activity.

What excited me was that prior to her vist and speaking at the summit which was at the Prime Osborn Convention center  was that we were going to take a trip under the TU and McCoys Creek. The waterway is right next to the train tracks.

Kim mentioned that if groups for example wanted to travel and bring bikes, motorcycles, Amtrack can then add another car that would then carry everyones bike. I like that. 

Visit Jacksonville
Visit our Pier
Visit McCoys Creek via the Waterway
Use the River
Use Rail.
Its an election cycle for city council and Mayor. What are their positions on this?   

Noone, I love the pocket pier idea.  We have 3 perfect places for that in San Marco:

Riverfront Park, Greenscape Celebration Park and Jim Rink Park.  All three could have a kayak launch added.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/ka4611.jpg)

Or see 12, 13 and 14 in this recent MJ article:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-the-14-parks-of-san-marco (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-the-14-parks-of-san-marco)

I don't know about the other candidates, but Audrey Moran will be outlining her policies more specifically at a press conference on January 10th, 2 pm at Gateway Town Center.

Oops - I just realized how far off my last reply was from the original topic.  I should have posted that one in the 'Pier' thread.

My earlier question still stands...

Quote from: dougskiles on December 30, 2010, 06:45:13 AM
Would this also pave the way for a light rail commuter line on the FEC tracks between Jax and St. Augustine?  One that would have stops in San Marco, Emerson, Baymeadows, Avenues, Palencia, St. Augustine Airport...

No Doug, it would pave the way for Commuter Rail, to St. Augustine with a stop at Atlantic in San Marco. Amtrak might also stop at Atlantic after the FEC route is up and running, provided South Jacksonville (the railroad name for the community) would put some pressure on the right places.

Light Rail is an outgrowth of Streetcars, and cannot operate on regular railroad's due to collision-safety rules and concerns. It could be done, but only on a piece of track that would permit a temporal or physical isolation of the LRT operation from the regular freight. Thus in San Diego, New Jersey and a few other places LRT DOES venture out on the freight railroads, but those freight railroads are usually simple switching lines, or branchlines that only see light or nocturnal traffic.

So saying that, our route from downtown up a reconstructed "s" line, to Springfield and north to Gateway Mall would be a great match for a LRT by day - Railroad by night operation, but you'd NEVER get that sort of deal on the FEC Mainline.


OCKLAWAHA

Doug, it would pave the way by significantly reducing the capital costs associated with establishing commuter rail along the ISB corridor.  Many of the improvements associated with commuter rail would also be needed to accommodate Amtrak.  Assuming Amtrak returns intercity passenger rail to the FEC, federal and state dollars will fund a good amount of the improvements that would also be needed for commuter rail.  In addition, the long term plan is for the establishment of a corridor service along the Florida East Coast.  This is essentially a hybrid of commuter rail and intercity service with frequent service connecting suburbs and cities along the coast.  California's Capitol Corridor is a good example of what such a system could resemble.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7755-ingridtaylar-flickr.jpg)
Imagine walkable centers of transit oriented development taking place around stations in places like DT Jax or St. Augustine?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7774-train_schedules-1.jpg)
The frequency of Capitol Corridor Amtrak trains is better than many commuter rail systems.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7757-davis_station_susan_decker-flickr.jpg)
Because of that, residents can live in a place like Orange Park, bike to the nearest station, put that bike on the train and use it when they arrive at their next destination.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7764-payton_chung-flickr.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7766-ntbraymer-flickr.jpg)
Long term, a corridor service offers the region the possibility of having more than one station per city.

Very cool.  Forgive me for being a 'newbie' when it comes to railroad terminology.  What I really meant was commuter rail - not 'light' rail.  And when I say commuter rail, I mean a system that would allow people to use the system in the Jacksonville metro area - and not just a system that takes you to South Florida and back.

If they build both the Jax to Miami Amtrak line and the Tampa to Orlando High Speed Rail line which one will average the higher rate of speed?  The two billion dollar toy or the it should have been done years ago strait shot up the coast.

Quote from: dougskiles on December 30, 2010, 11:03:53 AM
Very cool.  Forgive me for being a 'newbie' when it comes to railroad terminology.  What I really meant was commuter rail - not 'light' rail.  And when I say commuter rail, I mean a system that would allow people to use the system in the Jacksonville metro area - and not just a system that takes you to South Florida and back.

^Yes, it will pave the way for that by sharing in the cost to upgrade infrastructure necessary to accommodate passenger rail operations along the FEC corridor.

I firmly believe that investing in improved rail service through Jacksonville is a fool's errand if the train station issue is not addressed.  and I had the pleasure of seeing the Jacksonville Terminal in use in the early 1970s when I was a kid. Those memories still leave a great positive impression today, decades later.

By comparison, I've had to visit the current Amtrak station a few times, and detest it. I've taken Amtrak from that station to Hialeah (Miami station) in the mid-80s, and enjoyed the actual train ride a great deal (still grin when I recall the conductor telling us we'd arrived in "Beautiful downtown Waldo, Florida"). However, the train station itself is not one I care to go back to, and have avoided for 2 decades now. Even back then the current Jacksonville station was ugly, unimaginitive, and placed in an area that seemed both blighted and remote.  I'd actually like to see a photo series of how it looks today compared to the Prime Osborn. Are there any recent photos of it on MJ that I just haven't found yet?

Our Amshack is an embarrassment for sure.

Siemens is currently touring Florida with a mockup of its Velaro HSR trainset as part of its effort to win the FDOT contract for HSR in Florida.

Thanks to Leo King (from Orange Park) who reported this in the Jan 2011 issues of Trains Magazine.

Details on the Siemens Velaro can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro

Quote from: YellowBluffRoad on December 30, 2010, 11:22:44 AM
I firmly believe that investing in improved rail service through Jacksonville is a fool's errand if the train station issue is not addressed.  and I had the pleasure of seeing the Jacksonville Terminal in use in the early 1970s when I was a kid. Those memories still leave a great positive impression today, decades later.

As I stated in the recent TV interview, if you were there when it was active, you still hear the voices. The shear scale of the place, not to mention materials that couldn't be duplicated today for less then a few BILLION, gives a completely different feel then even the largest of International Airports.

QuoteBy comparison, I've had to visit the current Amtrak station a few times, and detest it. I've taken Amtrak from that station to Hialeah (Miami station) in the mid-80s, and enjoyed the actual train ride a great deal (still grin when I recall the conductor telling us we'd arrived in "Beautiful downtown Waldo, Florida"). However, the train station itself is not one I care to go back to, and have avoided for 2 decades now. Even back then the current Jacksonville station was ugly, unimaginitive, and placed in an area that seemed both blighted and remote.  I'd actually like to see a photo series of how it looks today compared to the Prime Osborn. Are there any recent photos of it on MJ that I just haven't found yet?

Obviously Amtraks Clifford Lane blunder has won them another fan and obdurate opinion of their architectural and business genius. I completely agree, and recall the infamous description by one of the primary railroad industry magazines back when the new station was opened. "Jacksonville's new station is off the main road, between two junk yards and underneath an overpass..."

The tragedy of Jacksonville is that Amtrak could move downtown without the old station being significantly disturbed. A simple portable modular building at the south end of the parking lot in front of the station, and reconstructed platforms and track that end at the Lee Street Viaduct would serve to bring the crowds back downtown, while we work on returning the grandeur as God intended.

OCKLAWAHA

I hope it stays in downtown!

What is up with the collective silence from our city's elected leaders (mayor, city council)?  It seems as if they are not the least bit involved this issue. 

They are not and if the Mayor put his foot in the ground and said "I want Amtrak downtown" it would happen.

how far is the jacksonville station from downtown

http://www.unionstationdc.com/

I agree that if the 'mayor and council' both now and in the future does not mention a rail station (downtown) and new convention center- the down town will have no future regardless of the new parks and infrastructure improvements.  The downtown does need a reason to go there first.  Any I too find the present Amtrak station a disgrace.

Quote from: yapp1850 on December 30, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
how far is the jacksonville station from downtown

It's 5-6 miles from the current station to City Hall, about 7 miles to the Landing. But, it's not an easy 5-7 miles from a transportation perspective. If you don't have a car parked at the station, you basically either have to catch a cab, or walk a full mile to catch the nearest bus to downtown. The JTA web site directs one to walk to 3520 Edgewood to pick up W.S. 12 line, which is then a 30 minute bus ride to get to Fosyth & Laura, with 70 minute intervals between buses.

Quote from: JeffreyS on December 30, 2010, 02:14:30 PM
They are not and if the Mayor put his foot in the ground and said "I want Amtrak downtown" it would happen.

While I agree they could do much more, it isn't true to say they've done nothing...

Mayor Peyton has recently been talking about converting the Prime Osborn back to its original purpose as a transportation hub with Amtrak returning.

Also, JTA and the TPO (w/ the Mayor and City Council members on its Board) both passed resolutions supporting the Amtrak on FEC concept.

Rail is coming back to downtown and it will be in the minds of the new mayor and city council.  I can say that confidently because we are going to make so much noise that they will have no other choice.  And it won't be just us making the noise.  People everywhere are ready for a change.

I think more is being done than many on this site lead you to believe. 2011 might be a good year!

Well with a lame duck Mayor and 1/4  of the Council, they can't help themselves much less the tax paying public! Heaven forbid that the City would take it upon themselves to do what is not only right but moving in a positive direction for all! Rail in and out of Jacksonville should be a factor that no one seems to consider! Talk of this has been going on for atleast 3 years, yes I know much longer for sure, and what do we have.......other than some more consulting studies that tell us what we all ready know! Is it just me or has government at any level disconnected from the people who voted them into office?

Quote from: fsujax on December 30, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
I think more is being done than many on this site lead you to believe. 2011 might be a good year!

I was thinking the same thing. I think there is alot of stuff in the works that we are unaware of. And with voting good leadership in next year, this city may actually begin to turn around.

Hey Ock,

How would a Amtrak train running a through route from NY to Tampa make a stop at JT?

Would it have to make a back out move to get aligned to the right track to go south on CSX?

It appears there is no way to get back to CSX from FEC once you leave JT unless you back the train up.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Maps/FloridaRailMap2006.JPG (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Maps/FloridaRailMap2006.JPG)

Quote from: fsujax on December 30, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
I think more is being done than many on this site lead you to believe. 2011 might be a good year!

I know you are correct but I do not think we should back off one bit. If anything make the drum beat louder.

Quote from: finehoe on December 30, 2010, 02:55:31 PM
http://www.unionstationdc.com/

I love that station!  It also reminds me of how horrid our station is.  I pray that fsujax is right about good things coming up in 2011 for Amtrak and railfans.  This has been a long time coming!

Here are a few images of DC's Union Station, Philly's 30th Street Station and Kansas City's Union Station from archived MJ photo tours.

Union Station
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190168/459277275_8gCZY-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190174/459277296_fs8sL-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190178/459277333_ekBw3-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190180/459277506_CRLhV-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190183/459277524_pMmfp-M.jpg)

30th Street Station
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Philadelphia-2010/DSC0287/859216833_gnXc6-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Philadelphia-2010/DSC0288/859217658_pKbfA-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Philadelphia-2010/DSC0290/859219027_hC47s-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Philadelphia-2010/DSC0294/859221796_sSc9q-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Philadelphia-2010/DSC0300/859225862_33uKu-M.jpg)


Kansas City Union Station

Amtrak is the only rail service using this once popular downtown station.  KC's BRT line has a stop just outside the building.  The rest of the complex is now home to KC's version of our MOSH and several other attractions.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380375/968120488_jVNgo-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380377/968120579_Gg8gt-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380382/968120685_n3cCG-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380386/968120831_VoVG9-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380432/968121301_9PWZf-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380660/968126126_wL2e4-M.jpg)

Why not Jacksonville?  In this particular case, our grand building is still standing.  Return it to its natural use.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Lost-Jacksonville-Jacksonville/main-waiting-room-1921/754214555_4pdLA-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Lost-Jacksonville-Jacksonville/black-waiting-room-1921/754214685_vAx4u-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Lost-Jacksonville-Jacksonville/concourse-1921/754214690_CcoFi-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Lost-Jacksonville-Jacksonville/color-image/754214689_GFAt9-M.jpg)

Couldn't agree more.

Great pics Lake.The front ballroom at the Prime is the former colored waiting room. If you walk the floor lengthwise, you can tell where the dips that are worn in the concrete from nervous shuffling feet are.
I love Rail and enjoy it whenever I travel.(except for certain Illinois Amtrack)

We as a Town have to undo this Incorporated Duval sprawl and bring our urban core back. We can't have rail based Downtown when everyone lives outside of "Ground Zero" didn't this happen to Atlanta?
We also have to ask ourselves and our friends and neighbors why everyone has had to keep purchasing larger trucks and SUVs with increasingly larger Horsepower engines the last 8 years.WTF? I love Horsepower and Drag racing, but this used to be a hobby with your "Toy"
Now there are Duramax Turbo diesel ..Dodge V-10s, and other "Exxon Valdez" sized Dually vehicles all over our streets.
Simply put...Farm vehicles on our City streets.What happened to the 4 cylinder engine?
You won't ever get the Entitled folks to be green and ride Rail or Bus.
Has anyone mentioned to Johnny P that most folks won't ever set foot on a Bus because "Poor" disgusting people ride it?
This is not my opinion... it is a local stigma.
I have seen people around here that drive but are scared to death of having to exit their Cocoon anywhere between point A and point B.
Bikers call you a "Cager"  :D
Just pointing out a few local trends and behaviors that are being passed down to other generations.

Lastly, I think a large percentage of our population looks at this progressive thinking as "European" or liberal.
They were not encouraged to think for themselves while they were growing up, or to look after the future of this town.
Free thought is not Left wing or Right.

Great post Ernest - times are a changing - just wait and see.

The whole massive vehicle thing really gets to me too - and is why part of me can't wait for $5/gallon gas.

Quote from: Ernest Street on December 30, 2010, 09:07:10 PM
You won't ever get the Entitled folks to be green and ride Rail or Bus.
Has anyone mentioned to Johnny P that most folks won't ever set foot on a Bus because "Poor" disgusting people ride it?
This is not my opinion... it is a local stigma.
I have seen people around here that drive but are scared to death of having to exit their Cocoon anywhere between point A and point B.

Actually Ernest, the stigma of buses is a NATIONWIDE problem and the industry knows it very well. Rail will attract the "ENTITLED" as it feels many times more secure then a bus, and frankly, how many bus museums are around where a half million a year go just for the experience of a ride? The guide to streetcar museums is more then 40 pages thick. In New Orleans, in Charlotte, Los Angles, Portland, San Francisco etc... the streetcars are packed with the "poor and disgusting," mixing with big blue business suited professionals, mixed with loud flower shirted tourists... It's the magic of the rails that Arlo Guthrie sang about.



Buses have benefited from successful rail in many communities with a surge of traffic, the industry aware of the image problem has met this new wave of riders with new low floor buses, wide entries, better suspension, real time information, news tickers, GPS bus location, and BRT which even bills itself as "just like rail only cheaper..." If BRT were really the panaceia that JTA told our city it was, Amtrak would be running ad's that say, "just like Greyhound only bigger." Never the less, BRT has cleaned up the image of many heavy inner city routes even using rail look-alike buses.

Another program that I have discussed with JTA, is to follow the lead of Bauer Bus. Take the 3 over-the-road coaches (Greyhound type coaches as opposed to buses) and replace them with 6 new Silver Eagles, or MCI's or Prevost-Volvo coaches. Add the amenities that draw the crowds, rest room, snack bar, reclining seats, overhead storage, video monitors , wifi, 110 volt outlets, piped music, etc... and place them on the long stretch out commuter runs, such as Ponte Vedra, Nocatee, Fernandina, St. Augustine-via A-1-A etc...

SEE:  http://www.bauerswi-drive.org/thebus.aspx  then call Mike Blaylock and tell him what we want.


OCKLAWAHA

Flagler County isn't shown having a station.  Do they not want one or are they just slow?

They've been all over it, including ambushing the test train a couple of month ago with a huge crowd, banners, signs, police and fire...

AMTRAK STOP HERE!

The train blew right through Bunnell where the stop would be.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Sonic101 on December 31, 2010, 12:57:01 AM
Flagler County isn't shown having a station.  Do they not want one or are they just slow?

They want one but haven't been granted a stop as of yet.

Maybe we need to stand around the North Jax Amshack with signs the read, "Amtrack DON't stop here, go downtown."

Wasn't the Amtrak station moved north of town because the current Amtrak route forks off between the station and downtown? Given the current route, if the old downtown station was used, it would have to back up to continue on its route to Orange Park and beyond. Assuming that the FEC Amtrak route is revived, the downtown station would work great for me, since I commute in from St. Augustine, but given that a large portion of the Amtrak traffic would veer off before the downtown station, what incentive does Amtrak have in relocating to the downtown station???

I'm a newbie here, so maybe this has been discussed before, but is there a serious plan to revive the downtown station for Amtrak use, or is this just wishful thinking for the urban-transport-enlightened that inhabit this message board?

...jim

very well stated
+1 Ernest
and
I think I feel routine flashmobs coming soon

Quote from: middleman on December 31, 2010, 05:54:22 PM
Wasn't the Amtrak station moved north of town because the current Amtrak route forks off between the station and downtown? Given the current route, if the old downtown station was used, it would have to back up to continue on its route to Orange Park and beyond. Assuming that the FEC Amtrak route is revived, the downtown station would work great for me, since I commute in from St. Augustine, but given that a large portion of the Amtrak traffic would veer off before the downtown station, what incentive does Amtrak have in relocating to the downtown station???

I'm a newbie here, so maybe this has been discussed before, but is there a serious plan to revive the downtown station for Amtrak use, or is this just wishful thinking for the urban-transport-enlightened that inhabit this message board?

...jim

It is true that trains had to back into the downtown terminal, but it is also true that Amtrak trains currently back into the station in Chicago.  To play devil's advocate, I can understand why Amtrak abandoned downtown Jacksonville in 1974.  The terminal was prohibitively expensive to operate in light of the small number of trains that were running through the city.  I recall reading about how the terminal was in bad shape during the late 1960s and early 1970s.  Does anyone have pictures of the drop ceiling that was installed to ostensibly save on operating expenses (e.g. air and heat)?  I know that Ock may have some interior shots of the waning days of our downtown terminal, right?  At any rate, we have entered a new chapter in our city's rich rail history and it is time to make things right again!

saving the tunnels?

Quote from: middleman on December 31, 2010, 05:54:22 PM
Wasn't the Amtrak station moved north of town because the current Amtrak route forks off between the station and downtown? Given the current route, if the old downtown station was used, it would have to back up to continue on its route to Orange Park and beyond. Assuming that the FEC Amtrak route is revived, the downtown station would work great for me, since I commute in from St. Augustine, but given that a large portion of the Amtrak traffic would veer off before the downtown station, what incentive does Amtrak have in relocating to the downtown station???

I'm a newbie here, so maybe this has been discussed before, but is there a serious plan to revive the downtown station for Amtrak use, or is this just wishful thinking for the urban-transport-enlightened that inhabit this message board?

...jim

All trains will be split or rejoined in Jacksonville, meaning that switching will be necessary. This was always the reason why the old terminal had both through and stub tracks. We had more switching operations then any other US Terminal. Trains entered/or departed for over:

NYC-DC-CHARLESTON-SAV-JESSUP-JAX
NYC-DC-RALEIGH-SAV-KINGSLAND-JAX
DET-BUFFALO-CLEVELAND-CHICAGO-CINCINNATI-ATLANTA-VALDOSTA-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-NASHVILLE-ATLANTA-MANCHESTER-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-BIRMINGHAM-MONTGOMERY-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO/ST LOUIS-CAIRO-BIRMINGHAM-COLUMBUS-WAYCROSS-JAX
NEW ORLEANS-PENSACOLA-TALLY-JAX

And departed/entered from

JAX-DAYTONA-FT. PIERCE-W.PALM-MIAMI
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-LAKELAND-TAMPA
JAX-BALDWIN-GAINESVILLE-OCALA-LEESBURG-TRILBY-ST PETE
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-FT.MYERS-NAPLES
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA-SARASOTA-VENICE
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-LAKE WALES-SEBRING-PALMDALE-EVERGLADES CITY

So for over a century, any train could come into Jax with cars for any two-three-four or more of these destinations, and leave with cars from the two-three-four or more destinations.

Amtrak has finally woke the hell up and figured out they are running trains and not non-stop airplanes, so the old terminal is coming back to life... maybe sooner then we can get it ready. But the project is very real, and actually dates to around 1980 when the USDOT did a recommendation that we have a 12 track station. So of course JTA planned only three... Let's hope that a more intelligent mind prevails.

CHECK OUT THE ARCHIVES:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/search?cx=001374210287472026848%3Aanwcdk3sekc&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=jacksonville+terminal&sa.x=0&sa.y=0#1151

OCKLAWAHA

OCKLAWAHA

Amtrak is planning on adding 2 trains each way daily on the Florida East Coast route, with the other 2 (sections of the same trains) via Orlando-Tampa and Orlando-Sebring-Miami.

PHASE 2. Will be to add 2 new trains to and from the north giving us 4 each way daily to NYC-DC-SAV etc...
I suspect and in fact have heard that one will be the Palmetto (again) which will make an all daylight sprint from NYC in the early 7ish AM to about 11 PM arrival in Jax. IF they watch that schedule, we could have the first overnight train to Miami for many years.

Another aspect will be the former SUNSET LIMITED which runs LAX-NORL, and was cut between New Orleans and Orlando. Once we have the tracks to deal with train sections again and a switcher stationed at our terminal, expect DOT to come up with a plan to run the GULF WIND, on a daylight schedule from JAX-NORL.

Finally, the secretary of transportation for the USA, has just stated that he wants to see the Jacksonville-Atlanta corridor developed. Again, expect 2 trains each way daily, and we should be putting on pressure along with South Central Georgia to route those trains via Valdosta on the NORFOLK SOUTHERN. It has an excellent higher speed mainline and fairly light traffic density which would allow wide open passenger running.

THAT'S THE CRYSTAL BALL FOLKS...



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 01, 2011, 12:23:26 PM

Quote from: middleman on December 31, 2010, 05:54:22 PM
Wasn't the Amtrak station moved north of town because the current Amtrak route forks off between the station and downtown? Given the current route, if the old downtown station was used, it would have to back up to continue on its route to Orange Park and beyond. Assuming that the FEC Amtrak route is revived, the downtown station would work great for me, since I commute in from St. Augustine, but given that a large portion of the Amtrak traffic would veer off before the downtown station, what incentive does Amtrak have in relocating to the downtown station???

I'm a newbie here, so maybe this has been discussed before, but is there a serious plan to revive the downtown station for Amtrak use, or is this just wishful thinking for the urban-transport-enlightened that inhabit this message board?

...jim

All trains will be split or rejoined in Jacksonville, meaning that switching will be necessary. This was always the reason why the old terminal had both through and stub tracks. We had more switching operations then any other US Terminal. Trains entered/or departed for over:

NYC-DC-CHARLESTON-SAV-JESSUP-JAX
NYC-DC-RALEIGH-SAV-KINGSLAND-JAX
DET-BUFFALO-CLEVELAND-CHICAGO-CINCINNATI-ATLANTA-VALDOSTA-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-NASHVILLE-ATLANTA-MANCHESTER-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-BIRMINGHAM-MONTGOMERY-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO/ST LOUIS-CAIRO-BIRMINGHAM-COLUMBUS-WAYCROSS-JAX
NEW ORLEANS-PENSACOLA-TALLY-JAX

And departed/entered from

JAX-DAYTONA-FT. PIERCE-W.PALM-MIAMI
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-LAKELAND-TAMPA
JAX-BALDWIN-GAINESVILLE-OCALA-LEESBURG-TRILBY-ST PETE
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-FT.MYERS-NAPLES
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA-SARASOTA-VENICE
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-LAKE WALES-SEBRING-PALMDALE-EVERGLADES CITY

So for over a century, any train could come into Jax with cars for any two-three-four or more of these destinations, and leave with cars from the two-three-four or more destinations.

Amtrak has finally woke the hell up and figured out they are running trains and not non-stop airplanes, so the old terminal is coming back to life... maybe sooner then we can get it ready. But the project is very real, and actually dates to around 1980 when the USDOT did a recommendation that we have a 12 track station. So of course JTA planned only three... Let's hope that a more intelligent mind prevails.

CHECK OUT THE ARCHIVES:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/search?cx=001374210287472026848%3Aanwcdk3sekc&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=jacksonville+terminal&sa.x=0&sa.y=0#1151

OCKLAWAHA

Sounds good back when, but Jacksonville isn't the rail hub it was back in the day.  Chicago's Union Station can support multiple backups because they have an infrastructure to support it (and a fare structure).  Jacksonville is not a hub and supporting multiple breakups and tie ups is expensive. Perhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

If Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it. I am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

We are in quite a catch-22.  Not many people in Jacksonville know about Amtrak service.  When I tell friends and others about my train travels, they are surprised that I was able to board a train from our city.  We can't increase our Amtrak presence because we don't use it and we don't use Amtrak because its presence is not apparent to many.  Egads!

state of  Georgia did  study in 2004 for passenger rail from atlanta to jacksonville, 3 options
1   1  round  trip   79mph    6 hrs
2   3  round  trips  79 mph   6  hrs
3   3  round  trips  110 mph  5  hrs
104-394  million
what will be the differice from this one and the new they are doing now.

Quote from: spuwho on January 02, 2011, 12:31:34 AM
Perhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

If Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it. I am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

As additional routes open, the number of employees working these positions will increase.  However, its going to be up to Jacksonville to decide if they want this potential economic engine to take place in DT or the amshack off New Kings.  With that in mind, I believe moving Amtrak back to the Jacksonville Terminal and downtown is more important for Jacksonville than it is for Amtrak.  Btw, speaking of backing into stations, Amtrak does this in Tampa and used to do it at the Jacksonville amshack before Katrina took out the New Orleans connection a couple of years ago.

Quote from: spuwho on January 02, 2011, 12:31:34 AM
Sounds good back when, but Jacksonville isn't the rail hub it was back in the day.

You are correct, today we have more then TWICE the traffic we had "back when."  Better track, better signaling, better schedules, and less railroad yards - (which within the industry is KNOWN as a good thing). Back when we were the headquarters city for one class one railroad, not so today... Today we are the headquarters city for one class one, and over 40 class two railroads... more than Chicago has.

QuoteChicago's Union Station can support multiple backups because they have an infrastructure to support it (and a fare structure). 

...And we will have ours restored, which by the way had more tracks then any of the Chicago Stations

Chicago Union Station - has 24 tracks, Jacksonville Terminal - had 29, and even in this age will likely have 8-12 when it is reopened. All tracks in Jacksonville will likely be through tracks, switchable from both ends, Chicago Union is a stub track or more properly a "Headhouse Station".

QuoteJacksonville is not a hub and supporting multiple breakups and tie ups is expensive.

Correct again, we are not a hub, we are the nations 5Th largest railroad hub, and we CAN support the expected additional 100-250 additional freight and passenger trains daily (source:AAR)

QuotePerhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

The Amshack is where it is because at the time (1974) it was still the mentality that "the railroad owns and operates the station," and what a station it was... but only 12 trains a day passed through, and were broken up and rejoined there. Today, the whole philosophy has changed to public ownership just like highways or airport facilities. Thus Jacksonville would be/is STUPID if they keep the station, "on a dead end road, between two junk yards and under a highway overpass..."

The railroaders of that era couldn't believe it when that new station went up, of course the government thought the railroads just didn't know how to run a railroad, so to "teach them," AMTRAK hired airline and bus executives. In a tongue and cheek retaliation the local railroads told the tale that the station was out of town so the public wouldn't complain when the trains LANDED.

QuoteIf Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it.

As I said, we ARE THE RAIL HUB OF FLORIDA, but you seem to misunderstand railroading...IE: NOBODY TRANSFERS in Jacksonville, few ever did. Rail passengers can sleep, play cards, talk or sip an adult beverage in a lounge, while airline passenger run through airports. The trains will pull into Jacksonville, and a switch engine will go to work pulling it apart, and setting the various cars (with passengers) out on different tracks and building what amounts to TWO or THREE trains. If the crew is good, as was the case in our terminal for 100 years, you can switch the cars without spilling the soup.

QuoteI am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

We will have all the tracks we need, and already have the switchers, support and staff, to which we'll add employees of the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE owned and operated station.

OCKLAWAHA

jacksonville should florida passenger rail hub and atlanta should be the  rail hub for the southeast just as new york city penn station is for the northeast

Thank you very much Ocklawaha. You are a wealth of information. And thanks for turning me on to the AAR.

"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

Quote from: spuwho on January 04, 2011, 05:42:23 PM
"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

The issue effectively ended DECEMBER 8, 2010.

Quote
SunRail back on track after Amtrak backs down

THE ORLANDO SENTINEL, FLA. | DAN TRACY | Thu, Dec 9, 2:51 AM

Dec. 09--Amtrak backed off its demands Wednesday for an ironclad insurance deal with SunRail, clearing the tracks for the Central Florida commuter train to roll again toward a startup in 2013.

The national carrier dropped its opposition to the $1.2 billion project during an hourlong meeting in the office of U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Among those in attendance was U.S. Rep. John Mica , R- Winter Park, soon to be chairman of the powerful transportation committee that oversees funding for Amtrak .

"I think with a change in the winds ... it avoids a lot of heartburn," Mica said.

Mica would not say whether he and LaHood pressured Amtrak CEO Joseph Boardman into ending the stalemate. Boardman also attended the meeting, along with U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D- Jacksonville, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and assorted state and federal officials.

In return for dropping its opposition, Amtrak received a pledge from Mica, Brown, Dyer and the state to lobby the Florida Legislature into approving an insurance deal that would cover the national passenger carrier in case one of its trains collides with SunRail.

http://dailyme.com/story/2010120900000555/sunrail-back-track-amtrak-backs.html

We're back on track to see the return of the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY passenger trains in Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 04, 2011, 07:55:57 PM

Quote from: spuwho on January 04, 2011, 05:42:23 PM
"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

The issue effectively ended DECEMBER 8, 2010.

Quote
SunRail back on track after Amtrak backs down

THE ORLANDO SENTINEL, FLA. | DAN TRACY | Thu, Dec 9, 2:51 AM

Dec. 09--Amtrak backed off its demands Wednesday for an ironclad insurance deal with SunRail, clearing the tracks for the Central Florida commuter train to roll again toward a startup in 2013.

The national carrier dropped its opposition to the $1.2 billion project during an hourlong meeting in the office of U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Among those in attendance was U.S. Rep. John Mica , R- Winter Park, soon to be chairman of the powerful transportation committee that oversees funding for Amtrak .

"I think with a change in the winds ... it avoids a lot of heartburn," Mica said.

Mica would not say whether he and LaHood pressured Amtrak CEO Joseph Boardman into ending the stalemate. Boardman also attended the meeting, along with U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D- Jacksonville, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and assorted state and federal officials.

In return for dropping its opposition, Amtrak received a pledge from Mica, Brown, Dyer and the state to lobby the Florida Legislature into approving an insurance deal that would cover the national passenger carrier in case one of its trains collides with SunRail.

http://dailyme.com/story/2010120900000555/sunrail-back-track-amtrak-backs.html

We're back on track to see the return of the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY passenger trains in Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock, thanks for the update, this is good news. I have been watching the wire reports out of Tallahassee to see if this ever got worked out.

The big news for Jacksonville from this resolution, is that CSX is going to turn around and use the $35Mil that FDOT is paying for the ROW and using it to build out the infrastructure to support the Mitsui and Hanjin terminals.  This will significantly reduce the truck loads for transcons coming to Jaxport and help make the port a core terminal for international commerce.

Some people may not see it in such a small event...but this decision will have a bigger impact on Jacksonville then it will on Sun Rail.  This is very good news.

This is something we originally discussed a couple of years ago:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-sunrail-bill-passes-what-it-means-for-jacksonville

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-apr-csx-jaxport-plan-opens-the-door-for-commuter-rail

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-aug-central-florida-commuter-rail-deal-may-help-jacksonville

Whether we get passenger rail back on the FEC line depends on how much clout North Florida will have with the new administration.  It seems that all of the goodies go to Central and South Florida because we know that politicians seek their precious votes.  Why bother trying to buy off North Florida when we are already in the pocket for one party?  I am keeping my fingers crossed that we will move forward with FEC/Amtrak...

I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

This is the one route in the entire nation where just plain knee slapping common sense say's their should be a train, and even most of the Republican's get it.  The benefit to Jacksonville with the restoration of this route and having that station back downtown, EVEN in a temporary trailer, is incalculable.

Fortunately for us, if your going to run a passenger train from anywhere north or west to anywhere in Florida, you MUST pass through JACKSONVILLE. We win by default, riding on our forefathers brilliance.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

I find it rather curious, though, that all of the emphasis has been on developing light rail between Orlando and Tampa, but mostly neglecting the east coast of the state.  If I were in power, I would be working overtime to get some light rail on the east coast to alleviate the congestion on I-95.  Instead, we are currying favor with the I-4 corridor folks for the sake of a redundant trip that could be done by car just as efficiently.  My point is that Jacksonville is being left out of the light rail loop and does not seem to be getting into it any time soon...

Jaxson...nobody is talking about light rail between any Florida cities.

High speed rail amendment in 2000 required connecting the 5 largest urban areas in FL....at the time, people interpreted that as Tampa, Orlando, Plam Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami.

Connecting Tampa and Orlando was made first because the I-4 widening that took place in the 2000s made it most physically feasible.....it is also a shorter, less expensive segment than orlando to Miami....or Orlando to Jacksonville for that matter

Also keep in mind that the southeast coast already has TriRail from Palm Beach on down that provides an alternative to I-95....I can assure you there is far more vehicular traffic (and congestion) on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando than there is on I-95 from Daytona down to Palm Beach.

Jaxson - don't feel that you are alone.  Having already received my lesson about light rail vs commuter rail (or whatever the correct terminology is for the trains that will run on the east coast line), I was anxiously awaiting the electronic lashing that you were about to receive.  If you really want to get a rise, start talking about the Riverside "Trolley"!

I like to just say fixed rail transit.

I misspoke (or mistyped!)  - I guess that, in the rush to spank me, nobody has an answer to what I was getting at.  Why are we bending over backwards to cater to rail needs along the I-4 corridor when it would benefit more people to shift those federal funds to the I-95 corridor???

Simple, more people live along I-4 and in South Florida, where the HSR line is supposed to end.  These places lobbied for this stuff decades ago and Jax stuck its head in the sand.  We have no one to blame but ourselves for being left out of the party.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2011, 10:40:36 PM
Simple, more people live along I-4 and in South Florida, where the HSR line is supposed to end.  These places lobbied for this stuff decades ago and Jax stuck its head in the sand.  We have no one to blame but ourselves for being left out of the party.

While there are more people along I-4 and in South Florida, I believe that you are most correct about Jacksonville falling asleep at the switch.  Someone could have easily justified the improvement of the rail that could connect Miami with the Northeast Corridor.  Oh, well...

Quote from: Jaxson on January 05, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
I misspoke (or mistyped!)  - I guess that, in the rush to spank me, nobody has an answer to what I was getting at.  Why are we bending over backwards to cater to rail needs along the I-4 corridor when it would benefit more people to shift those federal funds to the I-95 corridor???

IMHO - You can sum up the entire Florida HSR project in two words... 

M I C K E Y  M O U S E !

JUST ADD THE MUSIC.

OCKLAWAHA

Let's not forget that our city leaders have been fighting for a few things - namely an aircraft carrier at Mayport and a deeper port.  I don't follow either story enough to know the details, however, there is probably a good argument that getting each of these would have a greater economic impact on Jacksonville than getting the rail.  Fortunately for us, it appears that we may get the 'corridor' rail service without having to expend much of our political capital.  That would be ideal because, contrary to popular belief, there is not an unlimited supply of federal money.

Let's hope that our next round of leaders will continue the push for the aircraft carrier and the port.  I also hope that we can compliment the Amtrak service by moving the station to where it should be (downtown) and implementing commuter rail service and light rail downtown.

Regarding the port, a deeper river won't do much if the rest of the city's transportation network is not good enough to get goods in and out efficiently.  One thing we need to remember is nothing happens in this city in a vaccum.  Besides, fixed mass transit should have been a priority of JTA.  We have other entities to deal with the needs of the port and Navy.  Until MJ got started, it was road construction, BRT or bust.  Those things still make their legs weak but at least conversation and long term planning has started.

I'm with you, lakelander.  It all has to happen together.  It's like what we talked about in the recent school thread.  Did the schools drive sprawl or did sprawl weaken the schools?  Doesn't matter so much now because both need to be fixed.  And in the same way that one weakened the other into a downward spiral, they can build each other up as well.  We need the ecomonic engine and the infrastructure to make it happen.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 06, 2011, 07:05:10 AM
I'm with you, lakelander.  It all has to happen together.  It's like what we talked about in the recent school thread.  Did the schools drive sprawl or did sprawl weaken the schools?  Doesn't matter so much now because both need to be fixed.  And in the same way that one weakened the other into a downward spiral, they can build each other up as well.  We need the ecomonic engine and the infrastructure to make it happen.

The concept of "sprawl" which is mentioned often on MJ would be a good thread of discussion apart from this one.

It is tossed around derisively, yet I don't think we have taken the time to hash it out in detail.

To understand it, explain its root causes, it's benefits and demerits would be constructive. Many other cities have reached a perceived "sprawl" limit.  What drove it? Why now, after the suburban expansion post WWII?

Quote from: Jaxson on January 05, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
I misspoke (or mistyped!)  - I guess that, in the rush to spank me, nobody has an answer to what I was getting at.  Why are we bending over backwards to cater to rail needs along the I-4 corridor when it would benefit more people to shift those federal funds to the I-95 corridor???

read my post (#61) again....I explained it

can rick scott  tranfer the high speed rail funds to just upgrade amtrak florida instead of disney train.

Quote from: yapp1850 on January 06, 2011, 10:17:15 AM
can rick scott  tranfer the high speed rail funds to just upgrade amtrak florida instead of disney train.

No....just ask the Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio, and New jersey what happens when you try to transfer the $ to something else.

the law in the high speed rail is for passenger rail only, if its still passenger rail just on a different route still  tampa to orlando and what would the time be at  79-90-110-125

how much will it cost to upgrade  fec line and csx line between orlando and tampa including trains

I believe the required minimal speed in the law is 90mph.

That said, the new Governor in Wisconin was willing to spend their money on upgarding an existing line that went from Milwaukee to Minneapolis while bypassing Madison...the Feds said the grant  was specifically for the new line and took the money back.

the FEC line would cost something like $700 million to get full upgrades from Jax. to Miami....as for Orlando-Tampa, CSX has not shown an interest in having passenger rail on those tracks.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 06, 2011, 07:05:10 AM
I'm with you, lakelander.  It all has to happen together.  It's like what we talked about in the recent school thread.  Did the schools drive sprawl or did sprawl weaken the schools?  Doesn't matter so much now because both need to be fixed.  And in the same way that one weakened the other into a downward spiral, they can build each other up as well.  We need the ecomonic engine and the infrastructure to make it happen.

I think one has to define what each thing brings to the city, is it just more people, or is it buildings, trailer parks etc...

The new carrier will add about 10,000 people to the city, and about 1/3 of those will have an income that if it were not for military benefits, would be below poverty level. The development on base will benefit the military, with little benefit to any civilian industry except for private military contractors. The military will bring in highly trained technicians that operate various jobs and processes, they will make for an excellent and above average workforce as they leave the service. Housing will boom for a short while near the base, some new building will take place, but the real winner here will be WAL-MART. I say bring it on, but keep your eyes open to what we get and plan accordingly. Growth will be largely suburban sprawl in nature.

A deeper river will add thousands of square feet of new warehousing, manufacturing, and transportation jobs. These technical or administrative skills will equate to a higher income and higher educated populace.  Airport, Amtrak, and JTA expand to meet the needs of a well rounded professional demand. New housing will boom, but it will be a lasting boom as a ship x truck x warehouse x manufacturer x rail x ... multiplier takes effect. This is definitely a horse that can be ridden into the sunset. Growth will be in the industrial sector and select neighborhood locations.

Fixed rail mass transit, be it railroad or monorail or light rail, will spur a dense urbanized development pattern that will accommodate the new citizens from both of the above groups. It will become an attractor to the insurance and financial sector, as well as corporate relocation's. Vertical growth will be the result of packing as much along these routes as the developers can afford. This type of development will also tend to mix a boutique and small business development alongside mega projects.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 08:34:44 AM

Quote from: Jaxson on January 05, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
I misspoke (or mistyped!)  - I guess that, in the rush to spank me, nobody has an answer to what I was getting at.  Why are we bending over backwards to cater to rail needs along the I-4 corridor when it would benefit more people to shift those federal funds to the I-95 corridor???

read my post (#61) again....I explained it

I still think the real driver behind Central Florida's HSR project is M I C K E Y, this train will do NOTHING to relieve the traffic on I-4 or serve the local residents. It is a tourist train ride, pure and simple.

OCKLAWAHA

I am with you on this one Ock! Rat Rail does not help anything but Ratville! Pubilc Funds should not be used for a private enterprise!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 06, 2011, 02:22:00 PM
I am with you on this one Ock! Rat Rail does not help anything but Ratville! Pubilc Funds should not be used for a private enterprise!

got any proof/data?

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 08:34:44 AM

Quote from: Jaxson on January 05, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
I misspoke (or mistyped!)  - I guess that, in the rush to spank me, nobody has an answer to what I was getting at.  Why are we bending over backwards to cater to rail needs along the I-4 corridor when it would benefit more people to shift those federal funds to the I-95 corridor???

read my post (#61) again....I explained it

I read post #61, but I still believe that the difference between the I-4 and I-95 corridors is that the east coast rail line helps with both intrastate and interstate travel.  Folks in the Northeast corridor would benefit from a more direct route to South Florida and so would Floridians who want to avoid driving along the deadliest stretch of Interstate (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-06-07/news/fl-i-95-deadly-highway-20100607_1_i-95-lanes-broward-stretch)...

Most Florida residents don't care about travel in the Northeast corridor.  One of the things driving the I-4 HSR section is the cost/distance and the ability to get it implemented quickly.  I also believe there are major forces driving this project that have nothing to do with what is the best way or route to move people.

There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market.

Although most Florida residents do not care about the Northeast corridor, the Northeast corridor is very profitable for Amtrak.  Although most Floridians do not care about the Northeast corridor, I am sure that they would care about the money that those darned Yankees would spend in cities along the FEC route.  Take for example, St. Augustine is going to be at the center of various events that are related to the upcoming 500th anniversary of Florida's founding.  We can play like a bunch of insular, parochial rednecks all we want, but I still believe that we benefit the most from building a stronger network of passenger rail network that actually connects us to the rest of the country.  You also make my point about how politics and vote buying is also a factor in favoring such a high speed rail route along I-4...

who would be better operating florida passenger rail amtrak,virgin rail,Veolia

Jaxon, I don't disagree with you but doing something along the I-4 corridor does have merit.  Widening it would cost billions more. Nevertheless, it's not either/or as far as Florida is concerned. The State wants HSR and Amtrak on the FEC.  My guess is they'll get both.  Yapp, the better one is the entity that will invest a butt load of their own cash on this thing, imho.

Well checking FDOT count sites, I-4 is running at about 125,000 cars a day west of Orlando, and I-95 290,000 north of Miami. Looks like I-95 WITH Tri-Rail would still win the need test. TUFSU1 Got any other numbers?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market.

A conspiracy theory huh? If you don't mind terribly, can you back up this with some facts? Thinking off the top of my head, California is getting the biggest portion of the HSR money, and they are hardly a Swing state. Why would the Obama administration give California all that HSR money if the secret reason for HSR spending was political? Inquiring minds want to know. 

Quote from: middleman on January 06, 2011, 09:45:19 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market.

A conspiracy theory huh? If you don't mind terribly, can you back up this with some facts? Thinking off the top of my head, California is getting the biggest portion of the HSR money, and they are hardly a Swing state. Why would the Obama administration give California all that HSR money if the secret reason for HSR spending was political? Inquiring minds want to know. 

He said Florida was getting the rail cash due to some political motivations, not California. It is getting it because that particular state has already managed their publicly funded rail quite well, have solid plans and is primarily led in the House and Senate by those with allegiances to the party. (Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein)

One mustn't assume that all the states are getting their rail cash for the same reasons.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 06, 2011, 08:40:15 PM
Well checking FDOT count sites, I-4 is running at about 125,000 cars a day west of Orlando, and I-95 290,000 north of Miami. Looks like I-95 WITH Tri-Rail would still win the need test. TUFSU1 Got any other numbers?

OCKLAWAHA

yep....got to read what I originally wrote Ock...I was careful to note I-95 north of Palm Beach (remember Tri Rail already exists to the south)....so here you go:

I-95 in northern Palm Beach County - 87,000
I-95 in southern Martin County - 68,000
I-95 in northern Martin County - 51,000
I-95 in Port St. Lucie - 47,800
I-95 in Indian River County - 36,000
I95 in Palm Bay (southern Brevard County) - 50,000
I-95 in Port Canaveral (mid Brevard County) - 46,000
I-95 in northern Brevard County - 28,000
I-95 south of Daytona - 37,000
I-95 north of I-4/US 92 interchanges - 70,000

and...

I-4 just north of Beachline Expwy (Orlando) - 158,000
I-4 just north of Disney (Orange County) - 184,000
I-4 south of Disney/Western Expwy. (Osceola County) - 97,000
I-4 at US 92 (eastern Polk County) - 96,000
I-4 in central Polk County - 75,000
I-4 in western Lakeland (Polk County) - 85,000
I-4 in Plant City (eastern Hillsborough County) - 103,000
I-4 east of I-75 (Hillsborough County) - 127,000
I-4 east of 40th St (Tampa) - 151,000
I-4 east of I-275 (Tampa) - 164,000

All are 2009 counts....and for those who wish to investigate themselves, here is the website

http://www2.dot.state.fl.us/FloridaTrafficOnline/viewer.html

First off, I am the middleman. I am independent politically, and my primary motivation is fairness.

That being said, a claim that the HSR spending in Florida or anywhere else was politically motivated sent my BS meter to a full 10. Please present actually evidence that there is political motivation here. I would think a discussion board like this should be void of political opinion.

middleman...I don't think Lakelander was saying the funding was entirely politically motivated....but we all know that many of the projects funded by DC (or state govt for tyhat matter) have some political motivation....that's why there are slogans like "Corinne Delivers!"

fact is, Florida ws is the closest HSR line to being "shovel ready" which is a big reason for all the funding....but ity sure doesn't hurt that is a large swing state and central part of the state has lots of votes.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 06, 2011, 08:40:15 PM
Well checking FDOT count sites, I-4 is running at about 125,000 cars a day west of Orlando, and I-95 290,000 north of Miami. Looks like I-95 WITH Tri-Rail would still win the need test. TUFSU1 Got any other numbers?

OCKLAWAHA

+1

Quote from: middleman on January 06, 2011, 10:29:58 PM
First off, I am the middleman. I am independent politically, and my primary motivation is fairness.

I'm am independent too.   

QuoteThat being said, a claim that the HSR spending in Florida or anywhere else was politically motivated sent my BS meter to a full 10. Please present actually evidence that there is political motivation here. I would think a discussion board like this should be void of political opinion.

See Tufsu1's quote:

fact is, Florida ws is the closest HSR line to being "shovel ready" which is a big reason for all the funding....but ity sure doesn't hurt that is a large swing state and central part of the state has lots of votes.

I've been in this long enough to know that there are political undertones behind all moves, even good ones.  Hopefully, Florida will take advantage of the extra money before the political climate changes.  As for how the discussion board operates, we're all entitled to express our views on a wide range of issues.  The interaction of debate is what makes this forum interesting, imo.

Personally, I wish all Fed Infrastructure funding was based solely on metrics and merit and was devoid of politics completely.

I think it would resolve about 40 to 50% of our infrastructure woes nationally.

As we used to say, "no one wants their name above a new toilet" meaning that many like to have their names associated with prestigious projects, not ones that are not publicly flattering or can't send the "bring home the bacon" message.

If Rep. Mica got funding for a major replacement sewer system for some city, do you think he would want it named after him (even if it cost just as much as a new highway bridge)? "The Mica Memorial Sewer", of course not. No one would.

Building new stuff is always politically desirable, not replacing or fixing the existing. That is just our nature.

Lakelander,

Yes, of course, you are allowed to express your views. In this case, your "view" was stated as a fact. And I'm challenging you to back up your statement with supporting facts.

"There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market."

If you had said, "In My Opinion", I wouldn't have responded. I'm just a little touchy on the subject because too often today opinions and distortions get stated as fact, and the gullible masses believe them to be facts. These statements need to be challenged. For instance, one statement I've seen on this board "Republicans are Anti-Rail"... not a fact at all... And that non-fact has been challenged repeatedly... as it should be.

Getting back to HSR... Florida got this money because it was already planned and it was ready to implement. That is the fact. That it was politically motivated is unknown, therefore is not a fact. I don't disagree with the broad-brush statement that all government spending has some political motivation. But in any particular case, how would you know?  I hope you don't mind that I'm pointing this out.

Quote from: middleman on January 07, 2011, 08:50:39 AM
Lakelander,

Yes, of course, you are allowed to express your views. In this case, your "view" was stated as a fact. And I'm challenging you to back up your statement with supporting facts.

"There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market."

If you had said, "In My Opinion", I wouldn't have responded. I'm just a little touchy on the subject because too often today opinions and distortions get stated as fact, and the gullible masses believe them to be facts. These statements need to be challenged. For instance, one statement I've seen on this board "Republicans are Anti-Rail"... not a fact at all... And that non-fact has been challenged repeatedly... as it should be.

Getting back to HSR... Florida got this money because it was already planned and it was ready to implement. That is the fact. That it was politically motivated is unknown, therefore is not a fact. I don't disagree with the broad-brush statement that all government spending has some political motivation. But in any particular case, how would you know?  I hope you don't mind that I'm pointing this out.

If it will make you sleep better tonight, I'll simply edit that post to include "in my opinion."  With that said, I can present information along with links to the sources that lead me to this view but in the grand scheme of things, I've got higher priorities to deal with right now (I may do it later, if this is still an issue after I put more pressing fires out).

Quote from: spuwho on January 07, 2011, 08:28:57 AM
If Rep. Mica got funding for a major replacement sewer system for some city, do you think he would want it named after him (even if it cost just as much as a new highway bridge)? "The Mica Memorial Sewer", of course not. No one would.

Be careful with that one Spuwho, Florida Governor Martinez ran his whole campaign based on his "water treatment plant." Here is just one of 10,000 articles about the "Miracle of Martinez..." In this case the Governor not only hung his name above a toilet, he hung it above ALL of the toilets... The question is, did he ever do anything else?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote
Martinez was well schooled on water issues when he arrived in Tallahassee in 1987. As mayor of Tampa from 1979 to 1987, he ushered in a new era marked by the opening of the Howard F. Curren AWT plant. Born and raised just a stone’s throw from the Hillsborough River, he grew up fishing the river and Old Tampa Bay.

In the 1970s, Martinez served on the governing board of the Southwest Florida Water Management District, chairing three of its river basin boards and presiding as hearing officer for the setting of lake levels. “That’s where I got my first immersion in water issues,” he says. “As a result I gained a great deal of respect for the district and its mission.”

In marshalling support for SWIM, Martinez insisted on two things: “that we don’t create a new agency â€" the district already had the staff and knew the issues, and that the Tampa Bay estuary be designated a priority,” he said.

Governor Martinez made other sizable contributions as well, establishing Preservation 2000 in 1990, the largest state conservation land acquisition program in the country. The 10-year program bankrolled $300-million a year for the purchase of environmentally sensitive lands with funding from bonds and documentary stamps. Less visible but no less noteworthy, Martinez also backed legislation to allow long-term municipal bonding of stormwater systems, making it economically feasible for cities and counties to finance stormwater improvements.
SOURCE: http://www.baysoundings.com/wint06/abm.html

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 10:27:56 PM
yep....got to read what I originally wrote Ock...I was careful to note I-95 north of Palm Beach (remember Tri Rail already exists to the south)....so here you go:
I-4 just north of Beachline Expwy (Orlando) - 158,000
I-4 just north of Disney (Orange County) - 184,000
All are 2009 counts....and for those who wish to investigate themselves, here is the website

TUFSU, Yep, same site I was on. My point was that even WITH tri-rail I-95 is worse south of West Palm Beach then any place on I-4. It would seem to me that would indicate we need attention to Southeast Florida's rail-traffic solutions before we jump off a cliff with a train on I-4 that you admit won't really touch the locals. So in the end, we do nothing for South Florida, and we do nothing for residents in Central Florida, but we promise all of them a flying train... see what I mean?

That money would be SOOOOO MUCH better spent if we invested it in a TALGO or other TILT TRAIN technology and spread the system state wide on conventional track...track that we already have minus improvements such as stations, signals, and additional passing sidings (capacity).

Would you agree with me that if HIGH SPEED RAIL fails miserably in Florida, it will damage the entire industry for years to come?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on January 07, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
We actually participated in the run up process to Florida's High Speed Rail award from the Obama administration, and were able to view, first hand, the politics at play.

I'm sure that there is politics at play in any government planning. Was there any politics that you saw that supported Lakelander's theory that spending HSR money in Fla is attempt by the Obama administration to politically help him in a swing state?

A lot of states are getting this money. Including states like Texas, where federal spending isn't going to buy the administration any political capital. Trying to think about this logically, the money gets spent on HSR in Texas and California, where there probably isn't a whole lot of political gain to be had from it. But since Florida is a swing state, clearly this is secret plot by the Obama administration to buy votes! Sorry for getting sarcastic. Claiming this is a politically motivated project doesn't make sense. If anyone has any real evidence that this is about politics, even a wee bit, let's see it.

Actually the best evidence is probably the lack of evidence. The fact that there is no sane reason to move forward with a railroad down the middle of I-4, from an airport, to amusement park, to parking garage, should tell all of us something... CHA CHING! The entire Florida project is awash in mutual butt scratching, which might explain the smell.

OCKLAWAHA

Hark unto thy words, Othelo! Be ye not deceived by the workings of those who would do the Devils bidding.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on January 07, 2011, 01:28:39 PM
I suppose the best proof however, is the fact that all the politicians in the state deployed lobbyist efforts, often making personal appearances at the conferences in order to interact with political appointees at the meetings.

To me that would infer the nefarious presence of politics alone.

However, I also had the benefit of being in several of these meetings, as have most of the people posting.

You should come along next time and watch the opera unfold. ;)

Stephen,
Again, I do not doubt you at all that local and state politicians have had their hand in this. I'm sure industry lobbyist have influenced the HSR plan too. This makes sense, its what politicians do, make a stake in government projects, particularly big ones, for personal or political gain.

But the statement in question was about the Federal Administration's reason for selecting Florida for this money. To paraphrase: "There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money... It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time". So, I'm confused, are you saying that you saw lots of politics going on in the process leading up to the award. And that somehow translates to "Obama gave Florida the award to help him get reelected"??? What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

So again, I think the comment was baseless and was probably meant to be an Obama smear. I'm open-minded though... show me some evidence to the contrary, and I'll be happy to reevaluate.

Quote from: middleman on January 07, 2011, 05:17:42 PM
What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

Actually, North Carolina was much further along with their High Speed Rail plan. Unlike Florida, over the past decade they have actually invested in their Raleigh to Charlotte corridor and planned for a high speed connection to Richmond and DC.

Great conversation about the nature of politics.  I am pretty neutral on the HSR issue.  I'm not convinced that is entirely needed, but I also don't see it as the end of the world if it comes.  If anything I am glad to see us try something and learn and move from there.  As the saying goes, it is impossible to steer a parked car.  So as long as we are designing and building rail systems, I feel that eventually we'll learn a few things and get it right.

I often wonder why 'Politics' seems to be such a feared word.  People call it a necessary evil.  I don't see it that way, I see politics as communication between people - particulary people who have differing priorities.  I have never been a part of any group of people that wasn't 'political'.  My family is political.  When we are deciding where to eat lunch, you can see the lobbying take place.  Then you start to see alliances formed so that perhaps next time, one kid will get his/her choice if they support the other kid's choice.  And then ultimately it goes from democracy to dictatorship because the people paying the bill have the final say.

So - it doesn't bother me if the current administration does something to potentially gain favor in Florida.  In fact, I am glad to have their attention.  We would be fools if we don't take advantage of the opportunity.

Quote from: Lunican on January 07, 2011, 10:47:08 PM

Quote from: middleman on January 07, 2011, 05:17:42 PM
What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

Actually, North Carolina was much further along with their High Speed Rail plan. Unlike Florida, over the past decade they have actually invested in their Raleigh to Charlotte corridor and planned for a high speed connection to Richmond and DC.

NC is much further along in 90-110 mph service....but Florida and California were the only states doing environmental studies for 150+ mph service...and now Amtrak is proposing 150+ upgrades to Acela

Quote from: dougskiles on January 08, 2011, 06:55:08 AM
So - it doesn't bother me if the current administration does something to potentially gain favor in Florida.  In fact, I am glad to have their attention.  We would be fools if we don't take advantage of the opportunity.

I too think it's great to have their attention, but I disagree on taking advantage of an opportunity if it means a bad project is built. You wouldn't build a skyscraper with particle board, but that is exactly what Florida has proposed, a system built on NOTHING, and they've convinced most of the State that it's better then the Burj Khalifa. Bad idea.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Lunican on January 07, 2011, 10:47:08 PM

Quote from: middleman on January 07, 2011, 05:17:42 PM
What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

Actually, North Carolina was much further along with their High Speed Rail plan. Unlike Florida, over the past decade they have actually invested in their Raleigh to Charlotte corridor and planned for a high speed connection to Richmond and DC.

This is why I am a firm proponent of developing our East Coast rail infrastructure.  If we are to improve our rail network, we must think of the big picture.  As a regular Amtrak passenger, I have been impressed by rail efforts that are made by North Carolina and points north.  I immediately think back to the Transcontinental Railroad over a century ago.  President Lincoln, before his assassination, did not aspire to create a short line railroad; he had a greater vision of connecting Americans beyond state lines.  This is, what I am afraid, we are sorely lacking today - vision.

Hi all...

I want to publicly apologize about my smear comment. That was totally out of line. I don't know Lakelander or any of you personally, so how can I possibly know what your motives are? I'll make sure I don't do it again.

I'm just so sensitive to people publicly blaming everything on Obama. So I guess I'm overreacting to comments I hear on the subject. For instance... today I was down in Deland and a women we were talking with was complaining that the cost of bottled water went up and blamed it on Obama. Overall, we are near flat-line inflation, yet if the local Kangaroo raises the price of water, the president is blamed. We quickly walked away before my head exploded.

So... I will still challenge anybody that makes baseless comments aimed at anybody. But I promise not to question the motives.

And with that... this will be my last comment on this board.

middleman...nobody took your comments prsonally...please continue to post

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 05, 2011, 12:02:59 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

This is the one route in the entire nation where just plain knee slapping common sense say's their should be a train, and even most of the Republican's get it.  The benefit to Jacksonville with the restoration of this route and having that station back downtown, EVEN in a temporary trailer, is incalculable.

Fortunately for us, if your going to run a passenger train from anywhere north or west to anywhere in Florida, you MUST pass through JACKSONVILLE. We win by default, riding on our forefathers brilliance.

OCKLAWAHA

Article re: proactive planning (no, not Jacksonville) and some positive benefits of the FEC project for South Florida.  Does Jacksonville commuter rail became more feasible if the FEC project goes through???

Anyway:

_________________________________

With a primary goal of making Jupiter more transit-ready to attract passenger rail service, the town is working on a plan to redevelop the area around Toney Penna Drive.

Though town officials expected rail service to come first from the south in the form of Tri-Rail, AmTrak passenger rail service from the north may be the link to bring a rail line to Jupiter from the south.

Plans have been in the works for at least a decade now to extend Tri-Rail to Jupiter beyond its current northern terminus at 45th Street in West Palm Beach, and possibly on to the Treasure Coast.

One problem is lack of a crossover link for trains to switch from CSX track to the Florida East Coast Railway track corridor running from West Palm Beach to Jacksonville. The FEC line is currently used for freight only.

"Florida lags behind most of the rest of the nation in passenger rail service," said Kim DeLaney, growth management coordinator for the Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council. "The state transportation network is dominated by highways."

Funding for the AmTrak line from Jacksonville to Miami International Airport includes money to build a crossover line between the CSX and FEC tracks so Tri-Rail trains could get to Jupiter, and possibly beyond.

"Anything the community can do to make itself more transit-ready will make the project more attractive to federal review agencies," DeLaney said.

The TCRPC has been working with town staff to help develop the plan, DeLaney said.

Town officials identified the Toney Penna Drive area as the most conducive for a train station, but the area needs significant redevelopment to make it "transit-ready."

Last Thursday, residents and business owners were updated on the progress of redevelopment.

"We're not even sure what the status of the timeline of Tri-Rail is these days, but we're operating under the assumption that there is going to be a station at this location," Mayor Karen Golonka said at the workshop.

There's no funding yet for Tri-Rail to extend to Jupiter, but the town is assembling a "game plan" for redevelopment to improve the area even if no rail service comes in the foreseeable future, Golonka said.

The Toney Penna Drive Redevelopment Overlay Area is one of three specific overlay zones that town officials have identified for special incentives.

Overlay zones are alternative land development provisions placed over an existing zoning district, within a specific area of the community.

The other two are Inlet Village and Center Street around North Alternate A1A.

The Toney Penna Drive Redevelopment Overlay Area includes properties fronting Toney Penna Drive between Military Trail and South Old Dixie Highway, the Jupiter Medical Center, all adjacent non-residential properties and properties fronting on South Old Dixie Highway between First Street and Jupiter Lakes Boulevard.

Town officials displayed maps and talked generally about the need to make the area more accessible for pedestrians and vehicles of all sorts.

Widening of Toney Penna is scheduled to begin this fall.

Officials also spoke about potential zoning changes to encourage a mixed-use development that would support the train station.

Town officials also want input and cooperation from residents and business owners of the area.

"The town is trying to stay ahead of the curve," said Dana Little, the TCRPC's urban design director.

Abe Hajjaj, owner of Abe's European Auto, which opened 10 years ago at 342 Toney Penna Drive, said he is still curious to see how redevelopment might affect his auto repair shop.

Beth Kelso, executive director of the Abacoa Property Owners Association, said passenger rail service is still "a hopeful dream at this point." She appreciates the town's efforts, she said.

"I like the whole concept as long as they don't hurt the businesses in that are there," said Kelso, who lives in the Toney Penna area.



http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2011/may/03/officials-say-road-plans-moving-ahead/

Quote from: Jdog on May 11, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
Article re: proactive planning (no, not Jacksonville) and some positive benefits of the FEC project for South Florida.  Does Jacksonville commuter rail became more feasible if the FEC project goes through???

ABSOLUTELY! Amtrak and/or Tri-Rail expansion on the Florida East Coast would equal railroad capacity expansion. Read that as extra long passing sidings, some stretches of double or even triple track, improved signaling, and every crossing gate set for high train speeds. Track speed on the FEC would jump from the current 60 to 90 overnight (...and that track COULD handle much, much, faster trains...yeah, even THOSE fast trains). Perhaps we will see that with a new administration in Tallahassee closing most of the crossings with over/underpasses.

It this thing is green lighted, then our own mobility planners need to jam that Skyway to Atlantic in San Marco as fast as possible.

OCKLAWAHA

I was hoping you would be the one to reply!  (Everybody has great comments on the forum don't get me wrong). 

Thanks very much!!!

hey ock do you think rick scott will approve sunrail and maybee fec,  i really think fec will benefit  miami port,csx/fec tracks connections and tri-rail

He might have too as he learns the political game of give and take. I understand John Mica has basically put Florida on notice... no money for anything unless they are approved. It's a chance for Scott to learn some horse trading skills, but his newbie status and visions of the presidency might cloud his judgment. If he was very experienced politically I'd say absolutely, but as it is, it's a crap shoot, too close to call on the limited knowledge we have about the governor.

OCKLAWAHA

i herd john mica said if sunrail is not approve no money for port of miami

correct