Downtown's Blighted Surface Parking Lots Under Fire
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1088876107_YrG4t-M.jpg)
In an effort to clean up the appearance of downtown, the JEDC has developed a Surface Parking Improvement Plan to address the blight stimulated by downtown Jacksonville's parking industry.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-downtowns-blighted-surface-parking-lots-under-fire
I have one question..............how does the City calculate the "Storm Water Run Off Fee"? Especially for a place like say FBC? Yeah.......I know, churches are exempt.......if they can tax street cart vendors, it would seem to me that they could tax Churches also.................just like the rest of us! I have to pay a "Storm Water Fee" but I don't have drains that move water into the City system, Linkside is one of the few places that has ponds and drainage into the Boggy Bayou Eco System! In other words, that tax for me pays for upgrades in Jacksonville to parts of the world that I will never be in, that money goes to fill a Budget shortfall and with the exemption for all churches......it is a double whammy and not equitable! So how do the downtown garages pay their fair share?
Does the city plan to help out the current parking lot owners/managers, or just slap them around a bit with new licensing? What will the new regulations do to the cost or availability of parking? Will this have any adverse effect on parking downtown?
Certainly improved parking lot appearance is a good move. Incentives might be nice. Combo of carrot and stick always seems to work best.
I'm interested to read people's opinions on this particular issue. I do know that a few of those lots had century old buildings on them when I came to town in 2003. At this point, it appears they were demolished as a part of a "holding strategy" that avoids maintenance costs on existing buildings, while pulling in "temporary" profit for surface parking on those building foundations (without any investment in improving those sites).
As for the number of spaces, if these new regulations are adopted, my hope is that the availability of surface lots will decline. While DT has its parking issues, they aren't availability related.
Here's one example:
"A three-story building originally built in the early 1900s was demolished on the western edge of Downtown, leaving several residents combing through the rubble for choice bricks.
Jacksonville Economic Development Commission Deputy Director Paul Crawford said his office issued the demolition permit because the building was condemned and had no significant historical value"
Hundred years comes down - Jax Daily Record 3/28/08
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4238-p1080970.JPG)
MJ took this shot of the E.C. Newsom Furniture Company's building coming down in 2008. Since then, the building on the left of this photo and another on the same block have been demolished as well.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/667259616_6R466-M.jpg)
Here is an image of what the E.C. Newsom building used to look like back in the day.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-Nov2010/P1420324/1088876107_YrG4t-M.jpg)
This same block today. I don't know the background of all the lots the JEDC has decided to target but on this particular one, I agree with their position. Its completely unacceptable what has taken place on this corner the last couple of years.
Given the rule of unintended consequences, I would proceed carefully. It is a problem that needs addressing. The first question is what has worked successfully elsewhere?
Instead of making them look like prettier surface lots in the urban core, why shouldn't we just zone them out of existence: http://www.miami21.org/T6_Parking_Landscape.asp . In my opinion they don't have a place in the kind of environment downtown should be
Icky parking lots is not the major contributing factor to the dead zone. If downtown was a vibrant place, we wouldn't have so many building scars dotting the landscape. It is the effect, not the cause.
Perhaps declaring downtown its own very special enterprise zone with significant incentives for remaining in the DMZ, like COJ tax credits which could be used (for any COJ tax) or sold, and an attitude of "gee, we're glad you are here brave business person" might go farther to promote growth downtown then spending bucks on studies that point to parking lots and a billion dollars to determine we need to spend money scraping bubble gum off of the sidewalks and plastic signs that encourage us to make a scene.
Let businesses keep more money in their cash registers and they will use it to promote their businesses and improve their properties.
I have to agree that these unregulated parking lots give an apocalyptic feel to downtown Jacksonville. Would it not hurt to at least do some simple weeding and landscaping?
How much did the study cost which told us this? How much has been spent on studies for the last decade? Certainly the consultant biz must be doing well on the downtown situation.
3 yrs for this study?!?! If I'm reading that correctly, wow
I say it is about darn time. The long-term goal should be to get rid of all of these surface parking lots via new development. So the program should move us in that direction by disincentivizing ugly surface lots. And if the owners do not improve the lots then the City should consider eminent domain (I know that's much harder to do). The next time a property owner wants to demolish a historic building, say NO.
I truly believe that had Jacksonville not allowed all its great old buildings to be demolished downtown would be much more vibrant today. Its revitalization would be soooo much further along.
it took them how long to realize that surface parking lots were not good? good job jacksonville keep up the good work
Half of Ionia Street is empty lots where houses used to stand. if they were parking lots, perhaps the cars would crush the weeds.
Just sayin'
I don't know the history of the surface parking lot saga, nor do I know the players. Just seems like a distraction. I only hope one day Main Street is busy enough that folks will be lined up to park on Jennifer's scab on 7th & Main in Springfield. Cuz right now, it is blighted and doesn't have anything on it.
Fix up that damn lot at Jefferson Station, wo
Happy to see my lot (Forsyth and Main) was considered desirable. FYI, the ticket writers do patrol these lots to look for violations--I got a nice one for a partially obscured registration sticker. The monthly charge for this lot is 85.60, and I pay it to the Tax Collector. The price has been the same for at least 5 years.
Man i remember a similar discussion back pre-jaguar days saying the parking lot lobby put the kabosh on the sky way going to the stadium.
We have a surplus of parking. A new nationwide inventory has tallied a whopping 750 million parking spaces, three times more than there are cars and trucks, and more than double the number of people in the US:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=12306930
Quote from: Actionville on December 08, 2010, 09:02:24 AM
3 yrs for this study?!?! If I'm reading that correctly, wow
Yeah, especially funny when it took us 5 minutes to figure out the same thing on this message board without the aid of paid consultants. LMAO
Quote from: sheclown on December 08, 2010, 09:27:24 AM
Half of Ionia Street is empty lots where houses used to stand. if they were parking lots, perhaps the cars would crush the weeds.
Just sayin'
I don't know the history of the surface parking lot saga, nor do I know the players. Just seems like a distraction. I only hope one day Main Street is busy enough that folks will be lined up to park on Jennifer's scab on 7th & Main in Springfield. Cuz right now, it is blighted and doesn't have anything on it.
It's not a distraction at all.
The parking cartel is to the urban core's destruction what SPAR was to Springfield's, to give it perspective.
It is a step in the right direction to clean up the parking lots. It would be more useful if they had included some photos with examples of "Desirable" and "Acceptable with Improvements" so we could see the ultimate goal.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 08, 2010, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: sheclown on December 08, 2010, 09:27:24 AM
Half of Ionia Street is empty lots where houses used to stand. if they were parking lots, perhaps the cars would crush the weeds.
Just sayin'
I don't know the history of the surface parking lot saga, nor do I know the players. Just seems like a distraction. I only hope one day Main Street is busy enough that folks will be lined up to park on Jennifer's scab on 7th & Main in Springfield. Cuz right now, it is blighted and doesn't have anything on it.
It's not a distraction at all.
The parking cartel is to the urban core's destruction what SPAR was to Springfield's, to give it perspective.
You'd be delusional to think that this is going to save downtown, but this is not a distraction. Apathetic and absentee landowners are a huge problem in downtown. This proposal is a small step towards getting them to shape up or ship out (I'm hoping for the latter).
Dressing up our surface lots is lipstick on a pig, but it requires a capital investment from people who haven't invested a dime in their property for a decade. This will get them thinking about how to get the most out of their dollars, and sprucing up their lot may not be the best way. They may sell, try to develop the lot, or put the lot to new use.
I think the actual end result of this study will be much better than just spruced up parking lots. I hope it will be degenerate and small town landlords giving up their properties to more progressive minded people. Even though it took forever, I think the study was very well done and important.
I am sorry. These lots around downtown look a mess. Being that there are so many of them, they could atleast be presentable. I mean come on. I think this is a great idea. And the three year phase is acceptable in my point of view. I see that as "slapping" the owners with anything.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 08, 2010, 10:49:38 AM
Quote from: Actionville on December 08, 2010, 09:02:24 AM
3 yrs for this study?!?! If I'm reading that correctly, wow
Yeah, especially funny when it took us 5 minutes to figure out the same thing on this message board without the aid of paid consultants. LMAO
well before we all laugh too loud....do we know this work was done by a consultant? The presentation seems to imply that JEDC staff did it.
I also highly doubt the study took 3 solid years...maybe they worked on it off and on over a period of years...you know, while also working on other studies/projects.
So now we can be the empty downtown with fancy surface parking lots? *squeal*
Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 08, 2010, 11:51:26 AM
I am sorry. These lots around downtown look a mess. Being that there are so many of them, they could atleast be presentable. I mean come on. I think this is a great idea. And the three year phase is acceptable in my point of view. I see that as "slapping" the owners with anything.
Agreed. Have a little pride in our city. As long as it doesn’t end up costing us a fortune I don’t see the harm in cleaning up these lots a little bit.
Either that or encourage people to have bon fire parties in them, because that’s what seeing these pictures made me think of. Someone’s large over grown back yard where everyone parks and drinks from the keg.
^^there are those that already have bonfires in them! ever drive down State St on a cold morning or night?
Downtown surface lot bonfire kegger? Haha, I imagine all sorts of interesting folks would wander in
QuoteIts actually a ballsy move.
Honestly, its probably the most controversial thing JEDC has done in the last 5 years.
Actions like this, and Mr Barton's comments about finding real leadership and vision in the upcoming elections actually give me newfound hope about the JEDC.
This bill will either clean up lots, encourage development of abandoned lots, or force derelict landowners to get rid of the land to someone who will do one of the latter options.
I purposely try to avoid bringing out of town guests into the area from the old Paradome to the new courthouse. How sad is that the JTA's lots that serve conventioners is one of the lots in question? Not the most positive image for out-of-town conventioners.
Well, those of you who have been paying attention know better than I do.
If requiring parking lots to get presentable is controversial, that says a lot about what the majority of us don't know...(only Jacksonville...sigh)...
"The latest maps produced by the JEDC show that over 40% of downtown is now parking lots, or empty land being used for parking."
^still caught up on this.
When I first drove through and explored downtown Jacksonville in 2007 I could only describe it as "abandoned blight." No offense to exisiting businesses, but golly gee, not much in downtown Jax, is there?
MetroJacksonville has done great articles on other downtowns across the US. To bad, no one pays heed. Meet, consult, meet, consult. Anyone ever DO anything??
^^^ This and people continually run to the defense of COJ and yet all you have to do is take a drive DT and see it for what it really is. NO not much gets done but pretty diagrams, ideas, and catchy logos. While most of the world got busy during one of the biggest constructions booms in recent history, we agured over parking spaces, courthouse, school board building so on and so on.
Quote from: iloveionia on December 08, 2010, 02:58:27 PM
"The latest maps produced by the JEDC show that over 40% of downtown is now parking lots, or empty land being used for parking."
^still caught up on this.
When I first drove through and explored downtown Jacksonville in 2007 I could only describe it as "abandoned blight." No offense to exisiting businesses, but golly gee, not much in downtown Jax, is there?
MetroJacksonville has done great articles on other downtowns across the US. To bad, no one pays heed. Meet, consult, meet, consult. Anyone ever DO anything??
That's the name of the game in Jax. Talk about it, have meetings, commission studies, go on trips, and do nothing. Or, make terribly wrong-headed decisions, like tear down block after block of old buildings, or like luring developers to build giant condo towers, thinking (I guess) that businesses would follow. Why would people want to move someplace where there's nothing to do? Shouldn't you try to lure businesses first, make the area an exciting place to be, and allow demand for living space to grow naturally?
But I am not an expert, I'm just a guy who was born and raised here who hates that downtown is such an empty, abandoned place.
Using an average of 100-150 spaces per acre, we're looking at 35,125 surface spaces... add to this the 1,600 metered spaces along the city streets and around 5,000 garage spaces in city owned garage spaces. Somewhere in the 41,725 spaces downtown with less then half that many people... INTERESTING.
A flat fee of $2.50 per month - per assessed spaces would bring in $1,250,000 per year or about DOUBLE what the city grosses on metered spaces. That money could then be reinvested in parking beautification and/or meter elimination.
Anyone else find it side-splitting funny that the whole JRTC (Jacksonville Terminal) area owned by JTA is unacceptable? Maybe if they would ever finish a project they wouldn't be in such a mess...?
OCKLAWAHA
^I find it funny :)
Quote from: iloveionia on December 08, 2010, 02:58:27 PM
MetroJacksonville has done great articles on other downtowns across the US. To bad, no one pays heed. Meet, consult, meet, consult. Anyone ever DO anything??
I did! I moved to riverside!
Ones action should be focused to the top. The mayoral election in march. MetroJacksonville has always had the right ideas towards urban development of Jacksonville. And they have routinely been ignored. The jedc is just the worst. This report is pure garbage (in our faces!).
Pick the mayoral candidate that represents the OPPOSITE of "our" current administration.
Glorious Johnson is the best choice for a metropolitan Jacksonville.
mmmmmm............if I was a property owner and would get stiff fines for my surface lot..........I'd be tempted to close the lot fence off the property and leave it bare. If the tax burden was high I could hold on until the tax leins and then pay them off or let it go. Meanwhile being ............what abandoned looking?
Raise capital so the city can direct me further?....... naw .........There's more going on in the burbs .
The idea is not so much to tax the property owner (who would pass on any fee to the customers) rather it is to eliminate meters throughout downtown, making it more business friendly with a very small reallocation of funds and sources. Parking enforcement marches right along with new FREE PARKING zones marked off as hourly, 30 minute, 2 hour, etc... Moreover a transit sweetener could be tossed into the mix... For example, if your company WAS required to provide parking for xx employees, you could opt out by providing transit passes at a attractive discount...
Just saying...
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: hillary supporter on December 08, 2010, 03:54:14 PM
Quote from: iloveionia on December 08, 2010, 02:58:27 PM
MetroJacksonville has done great articles on other downtowns across the US. To bad, no one pays heed. Meet, consult, meet, consult. Anyone ever DO anything??
I did! I moved to riverside!
Ones action should be focused to the top. The mayoral election in march. MetroJacksonville has always had the right ideas towards urban development of Jacksonville. And they have routinely been ignored. The jedc is just the worst. This report is pure garbage (in our faces!).
Pick the mayoral candidate that represents the OPPOSITE of "our" current administration.
Glorious Johnson is the best choice for a metropolitan Jacksonville.
I moved to Riverside from downtown as well. I couldn't be happier.
I seem to be reading that to some extent, the surface parking lots and therefore their owners are being blamed for the downtown blight. Yet, again, it seems that the City of Jacksonville set up a policy that insured it was to the owners benefit and even perhaps the owners only option to tear down an unused building and use it for parking. It just all sounds to familiar. A symptom of reckless policy is being blamed for what the bad policy is at fault for. The only cure is to change policy or, in this case, to elect some who may see what the real facts are and who are willing to help rather than just continue to hinder.
QuotePerhaps it would be different if the parking lots didnt dominate downtown politics and panels.
Help us to understand...How many owners are there? Are we talking about a large group of people or just a few? Are these politically powerful folks?
Who are these people? How did they gain their political power? Money, GOB network?
What have these Pimply Parking People got against downtown? Why aren't they taking care of their properties?
I think parking garages with apartments on top would be a way to bring more residents downtown. and reduce the lack of parking. Think of the strand in san marco, or that building on bay st, across the street from the city hall annex building.
I believe that the best way to start bringing life back DT would be to prioritise with residential buildings and jobs need to come back to fill the vacant storefronts and vacant office buildings. Then, we can add to our skyline from there.
Quote from: sheclown on December 08, 2010, 06:52:14 PM
What have these Pimply Parking People got against downtown? Why aren't they taking care of their properties?
Quote from: stephendare on December 08, 2010, 06:49:44 PM
Quote from: sheclown on December 08, 2010, 06:45:28 PM
Who are these people? How did they gain their political power? Money, GOB network?
money and the nature of the BID structure
Is it right for me to conclude that this parking lot/ abandoned properties is connected to speculation on parking for the new courthouse? When trying to buya warehouse DT, all that i was hearing in the circles at wormans from my own lawyer was the business boon that the new courthouse will bring.
Thank you Stephen.
That's a seriously excellent explanation of what happened to downtown commerce in a nutshell.
Just to prevent COJ from getting seriously confused by this (quite accurate) analysis, Stephen should send them a consulting bill for $500k so they feel at home with it. Don't want them stepping too far outside that comfort zone.
Another well-done post by Metro Jax. Thanks.
Rimmer, immerses himself in the archaic parking ordinances learning every possible violation. He picks an easy stable of common violations and hires a couple of guys to drive around downtown, identify violations and call the Parking Commissioner demanding that enforcement assess the newly quadrupled fines. This leads to a giant leap forward in the number of 'boots' being applied to downtown consumers.
Again Stephen..well written but your entire post is a fabrication to make a point. This entire post is a perverted lie, or you just do not get it.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-12-09/story/licensing-parking-lots-may-help-spruce-downtown-jacksonville
I think the city should just take all these lots over and turn them into pocket parks. The homeless in Jacksonville need more places to hang out.....
Only 3 words for this thread......."It's about time."
HU
Quote from: urbaknight on December 08, 2010, 06:53:59 PM
I think parking garages with apartments on top would be a way to bring more residents downtown. and reduce the lack of parking.
Huh? What lack of parking?
It does appear that these lots suffer from a total lack of maintenance and pose a hazard to anyone simply walking through. Looks like a gold mine for a slip and fall artist...
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454118249_QKUYy-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/phtoos/454116243_VzZNv-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454113974_cUU4y-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454115136_m94hV-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454089335_nZNwX-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454099124_efQL9-L.jpg)
Here's a simple solution that will satisfy the garage owners AND be good for the environment.
Require that all concrete be removed from every vacant site as part of the demolition. Make it retroactive. No surface parking available and much less storm water runoff since there will be a lot more exposed dirt.
Quote from: Dog Walker on December 09, 2010, 01:19:57 PM
Here's a simple solution that will satisfy the garage owners AND be good for the environment.
Require that all concrete be removed from every vacant site as part of the demolition. Make it retroactive. No surface parking available and much less storm water runoff since there will be a lot more exposed dirt.
Ha. Easier said than done DW. Most of the surface lots were buildings, so the 'lot' you see is actally the foundation of an old building. The piers on most of those building probably go down 4-5 feet (speculation), but point being is that they're like iceburgs - what you see is only a fraction of what's actually there.
I understand that they are the foundations and first floors of old buildings, not purpose paved. They will all have to come out to build anything on the lots anyway. There is no construction engineer that is going to build a new building on unknown foundations.
Quote from: Dog Walker on December 09, 2010, 01:28:01 PM
I understand that they are the foundations and first floors of old buildings, not purpose paved. They will all have to come out to build anything on the lots anyway. There is no construction engineer that is going to build a new building on unknown foundations.
Waddya mean, we Italians are better know because of it.....
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/243426908_c9c365adc4.jpg)
I bet that some architect in Pisa got fired over that one a few hundred years ago! LOL!
I understand that there are actually TONS of lead bars inside the first floor of that tower on the up side to try to keep it from going over.
Those pictures are so depressing!
(http://apple_lane.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hell.jpeg)
Hell, MI
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454113974_cUU4y-L.jpg)
Here we go on an Ocklawaha photo adventure... looking for look alikes? How about Jacksonville (above) or the Gleeson, AZ, Saloon, where Johnny Ringo was last seen alive... probably just before meeting our local boy (Valdosta) Doc Holiday.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQFK_528MXI/AAAAAAAADNs/YAQo70FwxxI/s800/Tombstone%20gleasons%20saloon%20last%20sighting%20of%20johnny%20ringo.JPG)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454118249_QKUYy-L.jpg)
How about strange metalic things jutting out of the walks and foundations? Jacksonville or Gold Center, Nevada?
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQFNLdD66aI/AAAAAAAADN0/ix2NyPojK_Q/s800/Mill_foundation%2C_Gold_Center%2C_Nevada.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454089335_nZNwX-L.jpg)
Like grass covered wide open spaces? You could visit Jacksonville or Fort Larimie, Wyoming...
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQFO621fuQI/AAAAAAAADN8/VURI3XZ2XhE/s800/fort%20larimie%20wy%20Hospital%20ruins%20636.JPG)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454099124_efQL9-L.jpg)
My favorite is a sidewalk that is 500 miles from nowhere and 2 feet from HELL... Like Jacksonville (above) or The Manzanar Concentration Camp near Death Valley, California.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQFV4UymuoI/AAAAAAAADOI/mevb-UT2Ouw/s800/manzanar.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/phtoos/454116243_VzZNv-L.jpg)
I've always found some people are fond of bricks, something we have had an abundance of just like the Ghost Town of Elk Falls, Kansas... One has to wonder if we're next?
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQFcWmTQ3nI/AAAAAAAADOg/9C7IeuRYbGE/s800/KANSAS%20GHOST%20TOWN%20ElkFallsKS.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Smile Lunican ;D
Quote from: Dog Walker on December 09, 2010, 01:19:57 PM
Here's a simple solution that will satisfy the garage owners AND be good for the environment.
Require that all concrete be removed from every vacant site as part of the demolition. Make it retroactive. No surface parking available and much less storm water runoff since there will be a lot more exposed dirt.
I totally agree. And everywhere in the city, not just downtown. A meadow is better than the scabs.
SCABS! Perfect, just perfect description!
ooph:
__________________________________________
Articles 2010 December 10th Parking lot proposal receives chilly reception at JEDC, Tax refund for aircraft assembly plant approved
Article reprints available.
Find out more.
Special to the Daily Record
The Embraer Super Tucano light attack aircraft could be assembled in a hangar at Jacksonville International Airport.Parking lot proposal receives chilly reception at JEDC, Tax refund for aircraft assembly plant approved
12/10/2010
by Max Marbut
Staff Writer
Jacksonville Economic Development Commission Executive Director Ron Barton presented a plan Thursday to the JEDC to mitigate blight among Downtown parking lots.
The proposal, if enacted by City Council, would require owners of affected properties to meet higher standards for appearance and safety and require any property used as a parking lot to be licensed as a business.
Before he completed his presentation, commissioners expressed skepticism.
Primarily aimed at surface parking lots in the vicinity of the new County Courthouse, the proposed changes would apply to almost 50 percent of Downtown’s total acreage west of the sports complex.
Of 263 surface parking lots in the plan, Barton said 32 percent are “acceptable†and the remainder “need some, or a lot, of help.â€
In addition to parking lots, the proposed amendment to the zoning code would also require owners of vacant lots to remove foundation slabs, grade the property and plant grass, even if the property is not to be used for parking.
Commissioner Jack Meeks, who lives and owns a business in Springfield, asked what the City’s recourse would be if a property owner refused to comply with the regulations.
Barton said the reason for requiring a license to operate a parking lot would allow the City to “send a badged employee to shut down the illegal lot.â€
Meeks responded that when he has requested the City to enforce municipal code violations, even in cases of possible public safety or health violations, the City has been reluctant to enforce the code due to lack of resources.
Commissioner Randle Shoemaker-Crump, who is senior vice president and major claims counsel for Fidelity National Title Group, said, “It’s not fair to ‘slap down’ on parking lot owners. We should offer incentives for owners to improve their lots.â€
Barton said that owners of the lots “are not rational investors†and “most bought the property 20 years ago at $2 a square foot and then didn’t do anything with it during the hottest real estate market in history.â€
He also asked, “Why should we give a tax credit to someone who hasn’t invested in their property in 20 years?â€
Commissioner Barbara Moore, division president of Lennar Homes, said perhaps owners of surface parking lots are providing a product the market prefers over parking in covered garages, which usually are more expensive and located outside the urban core.
“We have to listen to what the buyers are telling us. Some people will only pay for cheap parking,†she said. “How downtowns worked 20 years ago is not how downtowns work today. Now people want to park close to their destination.â€
Before hearing the parking lot presentation, commissioners approved a Qualified Target Industry Tax Refund for Embraer Aircraft Holding Inc. that could set the stage for the company to open an aircraft assembly plant in an empty hangar at Jacksonville International Airport.
Embraer also is considering sites in Nashville, Tenn., and Hartford, Conn., for the facility. The product involved is the Super Tucano light attack aircraft, a two-seat turboprop plane that’s currently used by five air forces, including those in Brazil and Colombia.
Embraer President Gary Spulak said the company has submitted a Request for Proposal to the U.S. Department of Defense for a program at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base to help the government of Afghanistan build an air force for counterinsurgency operations.
If the Defense Department awards the contract to Embraer and if the company selects Jacksonville for the assembly plant, 50 jobs would be created at an average salary of $49,500, plus benefits, which would qualify for a tax refund of up to $150,000. The state’s share of the refund would be $120,000, with the City responsible for the $30,000 balance.
In addition, the Jacksonville Aviation Authority has agreed to provide $2 million in improvements to the former Piedmont Airlines hangar at JIA for the assembly plant.
“We have a strong partnership with Jacksonville already,†said Spulak. “Our company sees Jacksonville as the location of choice, particularly for defense contracts.â€
The proposal will be presented to City Council for its approval.
Wow. It's Ron Barton vs the small town hicks apparently. The points he raised were valid and accurate. Most of the lot owners aren't budding developers just waiting on the market to turn around in order to develop their parcel. They're crooked business men who bought a lot for dirt cheap in the 80's, haven't invested a dime, and are waiting to sell the lot for $3 million after the courthouse is finished and the market turns. It's time to hold these guys accountable.
Most of the legitimate surface lots in downtown already fall into the 'acceptable' category. This legislation targets the slumlords.
A rep from Lennar homes sitting on the JEDC Board and making comments about Downtown. Has Lennar ever invested in Downtown redevelopment? This is exactly why Downtown needs to have the DDA back!
"We should offer incentives for owners to improve their lots."
I LOLed
"Clean this up, and we won't shut it down!"
My neighbors can call the city on me if I let my lawn go for months on end, but these lots can sit around looking some something out of Life After People and the city is helpless?
I don't think downtown Jacksonville is ever going to make any kind of comeback. It's doomed. There, I said it.
Quote from: Bativac on December 10, 2010, 01:23:26 PM
"We should offer incentives for owners to improve their lots."
I LOLed
"Clean this up, and we won't shut it down!"
My neighbors can call the city on me if I let my lawn go for months on end, but these lots can sit around looking some something out of Life After People and the city is helpless?
I don't think downtown Jacksonville is ever going to make any kind of comeback. It's doomed. There, I said it.
I'm giving Jax a few more years to get it together, or if we end up with the same leadership after the election, I may have to move back home. I need a city to be able to get around in; and I need lots of diversity and lots of places to go.
I'm cautiously hopefull that Jax can turn it around.
Here is a novel idea. Tax each parking space downtown, the proceeds of which go toward funding mass transit improvements to make parking unnecessary downtown. ;)
It's official... Barbara Moore and Randle Shoemaker-Crump are officially on the watch list.
I literally picked my chin off the floor when I read the tax incentive comment this morning.
does anyone else find it odd that the comment about parking garages is that they are usually more expensive and OUTSIDE the urban core.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 10, 2010, 04:45:55 PM
does anyone else find it odd that the comment about parking garages is that they are usually more expensive and OUTSIDE the urban core.
Shows you how little any of those commissioners actually go down there. Half of the core is parking! What idiots.
Yeah TU, Barbara spoke like a true suburban sprawl queen... There comes a time when you have to ask yourself, does she know what urban density is? Can she spell MASS TRANSIT and/or SKYWAY? Could it be she's never experienced Park and Ride? Maybe someone should point out that parking might be a problem rather then a solution. Parking could also be a means to an end...
STJR, yep what I've been saying all along... carrot and stick, transit or pay?
OCKLAWAHA
OK, I might be shooting from the hip here, but doesn't COJ send a bill if they have to mow a neglected yard? I have seen the city actually mow an out of town owned property several times here on Ernest Street, and assumed the owner was billed or taxed for this.
While I still believe the parking lot issue is more of a symptom rather than the disease, I do see how parking lots have become advantageous to a small group and I understand very well how a small group like that will fight to hold onto what they perceive as theirs.
I do not have a lot of knowledge about what transpires Downtown, but I do have that experience in Springfield. Mr. Meeks is not a friend of a dense, vibrant Urban environment. SPAR Council’s traditional vision of Springfield with Mr. Meeks very involved along with the developers was more of a semi-gated, neo-suburbanite one that had only the “cool people†allowed to join. It is not the vision that will make a successful Springfield let alone a successful and vibrant Downtown.
From this thread, it does seem like the current JDEC is not on track for the right vision for downtown and that changes are needed.
I do like the idea that the surface lots need to meet some new standard. That way, they can pull up the old foundations and such and make it a pretty empty lot or spend the money to repave part of it and make the rest meet some runoff standard if they really want to stay a parking lot. Whatever that standard is, every single stand a lone lot in the city limits, not just Downtown, must be required to meet it or it will not be enforceable in the end.
QuoteHas Lennar ever invested in Downtown redevelopment?
Sure, as long as you count the intersections of Atlantic Blvd/Kernan Blvd and Merrill Road/9A as part of the urban core.
BTW Lennar... how did buying out/closing down Jax Raceways work out for ya????
QuoteWhile I still believe the parking lot issue is more of a symptom rather than the disease
+1
QuotePlease Lord. Let the new mayor come quickly.
+100
Plus 1K to both of you!
Cleveland Ferguson was one of my professors back in law school, and I know him reasonably well. He is intelligent, friendly, and reasonably minded. I believe he is definitely someone that would "get it" if he knew the facts involved here. And unlike the other members of this committee, he is an academic, he's not paradoxically making money off a sprawl-enabling business whose interests directly conflict with downtown's, at the same time he's serving on this board like most of the other members are. He may be a great source to have a productive discussion about these problems. Craig Gibbs also may be another resource, he's a well-regarded divorce attorney, he has nothing to do with sprawl, and unless something's changed since last I heard, he has his offices downtown, so he has a vested interest down there. If anyone wants something done, I'd start with these two, as they aren't hogtied by their own business interests which run directly counter to the concept of urban density.
Given that JEDC is responsible for all of Duval County economic development, its commissioners may not be any or at all experienced in urban issues. In other words, the commission is grossly short the specialized expertise to deal with all the issues before it. This may be why the DDA was something that should have been retained: A group representative of, and knowledgeable about, the specialized concerns and solutions for the urban core that may differ from suburbia.
With respect to downtown representation on JEDC, there are also appears to be no retail, entertainment, or small business reps on JEDC. A major miss when discussing downtown. Maybe this further explains why downtown is NOT where it is at!
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2010, 07:00:11 AM
I'm interested to read people's opinions on this particular issue.
Its an election year. We have some new parking meters and they take a credit card. Someone made it happen.
So now we have all these parking lots and legislation is making its way through council.
Some of you have been advocating for rail. I've never been on a train unless the skyway counts and even the last time has been a couple of years. But for those who keep showing the benefits of even a street car I must say that I think that you can Make it Happen.
Lake, Ock, with all these parking lots and some that are city owned what would be the best North and South corridor that would garner the biggest bang for the buck to utilize these parking lots that will be forced by ordinance to do something?
I'm just looking at #29 or is it 26 but look at the street pole and the sidewalk. Point is in my opinion this is the time to identify a corridor and move the street light that it could power a street car.
I'm not a big rail guy. But for those of you that are and for making the case for those lot owners that will be forced to do something this may be the time to start yelling
"All ABOARD!!
Why not a split rate tax, so unimproved land like parking lots gets taxed more than buildings?
http://www.wealthandwant.com/themes/Split-Rate_Taxation.html
Take any non-players or questionable city owned properties and offer a deal that the city will remove the slabs and the owners will plant sod and designated trees and shrubs per "concept drawings"... RESULT? Instant micro parks for land awaiting future suitors. Insurance should be even less for a passive pedestrian attractive lawn then it is for people and automobiles.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: finehoe on December 09, 2010, 09:57:55 AM
Quote from: urbaknight on December 08, 2010, 06:53:59 PM
I think parking garages with apartments on top would be a way to bring more residents downtown. and reduce the lack of parking.
Huh? What lack of parking?
If things go the way I think they should, parking will be a problem. Because I think that all of dt should be constantly vibrant. So I'm thinking, A five level parking garage with five or six stories of apartments on top of the garage and reserving the top level for residents, while the rest of the garage remains open to the public. For a small fee of course.
Quote from: stjr on December 10, 2010, 02:37:41 PM
Here is a novel idea. Tax each parking space downtown, the proceeds of which go toward funding mass transit improvements to make parking unnecessary downtown. ;)
That's what happens in Oslo Norway. They charge outrageous tolls fees, parking ans gas are also over the top expensive. Then that money subsidizes public transit. If we can only do that without the gas addicts knowing about where the money is going (because they would not allow it, all they want are more roads, highways and stripmalls) we can easily fix any mass transit concerns.
Quote from: urbaknight on December 15, 2010, 02:23:38 PM
That's what happens in Oslo Norway. They charge outrageous tolls fees, parking ans gas are also over the top expensive. Then that money subsidizes public transit. If we can only do that without the gas addicts knowing about where the money is going (because they would not allow it, all they want are more roads, highways and stripmalls) we can easily fix any mass transit concerns.
discourage use ov fossil fuels? why, that's...that's...
unamerican!...count me in.
Quote from: stephendare on December 11, 2010, 10:34:24 AM
List of Commissioners:
* Cleveland Ferguson, Professor of Law, Florida Coastal School of Law
* Craig A. Gibbs, Attorney, The Law Office of Craig Gibbs
* Robert W. Helms, CEO (retired), Wachovia Bank of Florida
* Jack L. Meeks, President, Jack Meeks & Associates, CPAs, LLC
* Barbara Moore, Division President, Lennar
* Helen Rowan, Vice President, Strategic Planning, Rayonier, Inc.
* Randle P. Shoemaker-Crump, Major Claims Counsel, Senior Vice President, Fidelity National Title Group
Don't get me wrong. These are all nice people, and wouldnt be serving on the board if they didnt want to contribute in a positive way to their community, but come on, people. Lets talk basic skill sets and toolboxes. Three attorneys, an accountant, a national homebuilding franchise president, and two bankers? Helen Rowan and Cleveland Ferguson look to be the only ones who belong on an actual economic development commission.
Where is the manufacturing, maritime, transportation, economist or urban planning element in this group?
And if you don't have representatives of the most important parts of any economic development group on the board, how in the hell do you suppose that they are going to make any decent decisions? I guess the whole thing is supposed to rest on Ron Barton's shoulders?
omg.
Please lord. Let the new mayor come quickly.
what I meant to say.. .
was sweet lord the heap of effort that has culminated in this in-depth and clean, convincing professional presentation is awe inspiring.
seriously.
As a I previously worked with a local ERs legal dept and became aware that ONE same individual thrice sued for slip and fall cases, I cannot understand how the coj has not viewed these parcels a danger and liabilty farrr before now.
AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN.
great study and report - I cannot help but sense a bit of commando recon swaying the JEDC. finally someone's listening.
Where is the manufacturing, maritime, transportation, economist or urban planning element in this group?
This city will creat a control group for anything..i wonder how much that costs us? A bunch of know nothing politician wanna bees making decisions...a waist of money unless everyones' working for free.
From the Florida Times-Union:
http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-02-07/story/cracking-down-makeshift-downtown-parking-lots (http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-02-07/story/cracking-down-makeshift-downtown-parking-lots)
QuoteCracking down on makeshift downtown parking lots
Legislation, meant to prevent blight, will require owners to get certification.
Posted: February 7, 2011 - 11:50pm
By David Bauerlein
Unsightly parking lots in downtown Jacksonville, many near the site of the new county courthouse, would fall under beautification requirements in legislation set for a City Council vote tonight.
The Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, which oversees downtown redevelopment, has pushed the measure, saying shabby parking lots are a drag on attracting redevelopment to the core.
Downtown Vision, a nonprofit representing property owners in the core, supports the legislation. A white paper issued by Downtown Vision in 2010 said many parking lots are in a deplorable state and create a "barren wasteland."
"We think this is one small step to generate pride of ownership and change the perception of downtown as unattractive and unkempt," said Terry Lorince, executive director of Downtown Vision. "We all need to step it up."
The bill originally said parking lot owners would pay for licenses annually. But the amended version calls for an owner to obtain a one-time certification from the city. The certification would be based on criteria such as landscaping, fencing, signs and paving. The application fee for certification would range from $150 to $450, depending on the size of the lot.
Another change in the bill has narrowed the types of parking lots needing city certification. The ordinance would apply to commercial lots that sell parking to individuals on a first-come, first-serve basis. The revised bill does not require certification of lots that primarily serve a particular business by providing parking for its employees or customers.
The JEDC offered the amendments while the City Council was debating the bill, which has been approved unanimously by two council committees.
JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton said the legislation still fulfills the goal of improving unsightly lots that suffer from lack of care by owners. He said commercial lots operating on grassy areas or atop the slabs of demolished buildings are the main source of eyesores. The blight "hurts everybody" by depressing the value of other downtown property, which ultimately makes it harder for lot owners to sell their own land for redevelopment, he said.
Property owners would have until Jan. 1 to apply for certification and face a Jan. 1, 2014 deadline to make changes spelled out by the city.
Property owners who don't pursue certification would instead fall under standards for the appearance of vacant land. For instance, a lot that has building slabs or brick foundations would need to be cleared so it can be covered with grass and landscaping.
"Just because you're not going to run a makeshift parking operation doesn't mean you can leave it in a blighted situation," Barton said.
The area around the site of the new county courthouse has a large number of parking lots that would fall under the requirements of the proposed ordinance. The legislation would not pertain to parking lots in the sports and entertainment complex.
david.bauerlein@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4581
Judging by the article comments, this isn't a real popular piece of legislation. I have the feeling most of Jacksonville is going to treat this as more government intrusion, which it is, I guess, but it's something that the property owners aren't going to take on themselves. In this case I think the city needs to step in. Also, woe unto city officials if somebody mentions tax dollars paying for enforcement.
I mean, looking at some of these lots, you'd think you're in a Mad Max sequel. Between broken pavement, weeds, litter... I go back to my earlier statement that the city would fine me if my front yard looked like some of these parking lots. I don't think it's too much to ask that the lots look more like well-planned and maintained parking lots and less like makeshift parking on top of an old historic building foundation (which most of these lots are, right?).
Thanks so much for posting this. It makes a lot of sense. Really sad, but I guess you have to know the ill to cure it.
"Under the new regime, parkers were getting multiple citations and leaving downtown with up to 70 dollars in tickets. After two or three times of this happening, another customer abandoned downtown" ...this is an embellishment to make it sound like everyone who comes downtown and parks on the street leaves with $70 in tickets. This is not true. And I am suprised that these people take three times to learn the rules.
"the ubiquitous and appropriately named Mr. Rimmer (look it up on urban dictionary)" I thought name calling was taboo on this site..or is that for everyone but you Steve
"He picks an easy stable of common violations and hires a couple of guys to drive around downtown, identify violations and call the Parking Commissioner demanding that enforcement assess the newly quadrupled fines."...Steve, do you just make this crap up. Nothing you say here is factually true yet you continue to say it.
If you don't think that the parking 'regime' is a little on the shady side, read last week's Folio.
The link is here http://www.folioweekly.com/documents/folio0816wkl007.pdf (http://www.folioweekly.com/documents/folio0816wkl007.pdf)
If someone can extrapolate it here for viewing, please do.
Quote from: dganson on August 24, 2011, 09:38:38 AM
"Under the new regime, parkers were getting multiple citations and leaving downtown with up to 70 dollars in tickets. After two or three times of this happening, another customer abandoned downtown" ...this is an embellishment to make it sound like everyone who comes downtown and parks on the street leaves with $70 in tickets. This is not true. And I am suprised that these people take three times to learn the rules.
Well yes, because forcing visitors to learn asinine rules and pay a bunch of fines is just great for business. Obviously.
Quote from: dganson on August 24, 2011, 09:38:38 AM
"the ubiquitous and appropriately named Mr. Rimmer (look it up on urban dictionary)" I thought name calling was taboo on this site..or is that for everyone but you Steve
It's the guy's actual name. What would you prefer Stephen call him?
Quote from: dganson on August 24, 2011, 09:38:38 AM
"He picks an easy stable of common violations and hires a couple of guys to drive around downtown, identify violations and call the Parking Commissioner demanding that enforcement assess the newly quadrupled fines."...Steve, do you just make this crap up. Nothing you say here is factually true yet you continue to say it.
He's turned out to be correct on just about every single observation I've ever seen him make about downtown. Actually, he's one of the few people in the city who doesn't mind telling the truth about its true condition, and cares enough to say something. He's been a lone honest voice during a long decade where DVI and the City were both literally lying about the condition of the city core, and a handful of the same planners and consultants whose bread is buttered by the same mindset, projects, and regulations that caused the problem in the first place were on this site calling him a liar on a daily basis. If anything, he deserves an award, as he has brought awareness to the problems, and the new administration is now eager to do something about it.