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QuoteBy Roger Bull
The Christmas lights are up, the music's playing and the Christmas shoppers are out at St. Johns Town Center. But that's nothing new.
Since it opened five years ago, St. Johns Town Center and its two adjacent shopping areas have dominated Jacksonville's retail scene.
The stores and restaurants stretch out for more than a mile along Town Center Parkway, from Publix on the east to CVS on the west. In between, there's a Dollar Tree where everything's $1 and a Louis Vuitton where nothing is.
It's an improbable mix of Target and a Tiffany's that opens Friday, of drive-through burger chains and valet parking before a lobster dinner.
While its success has been unquestioned, changing the face of Jacksonville shopping, bringing new stores and creating jobs, Town Center has also taken a toll elsewhere. Several of its businesses have been drawn from other shopping centers, leaving vacant storefronts and reduced traffic after key tenants moved to the next big thing.
QuoteBen Carter, the Atlanta developer who started the whole project, said that the Town Center's restaurants are doing $1,000 a square foot in annual revenue, placing them in the top 3 percent in the nation.
Consider that restaurant/clubs Whisky River, BlackFinn American Saloon and Suite are all located together in EpiCenter, a much bigger Landing-like complex in downtown Charlotte.
But when its developers there decided to open the three clubs in Jacksonville, they didn't go to the Landing, they didn't go downtown. They went to the Markets at Town Center.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-12-05/story/st-johns-town-centers-success-has-transformed-first-coast-retail-landscape
Surprisingly good comments about this on FTU. Most people realize that it actually isn't urban and that it takes away from pre-existing areas/centers rather than reinforces them. Sounds like people wanted garages, higher density, apartments/office above the retail, etc.
Sucks that Regency is doing bad, but that didnt seem to be thinking big out there are a minute. Hopefully Avenues stays a float.
Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2010, 06:54:44 PM
Surprisingly good comments about this on FTU. Most people realize that it actually isn't urban and that it takes away from pre-existing areas/centers rather than reinforces them. Sounds like people wanted garages, higher density, apartments/office above the retail, etc.
Lakelander or anyone else: in your experience, how possible is it for a place like the town center to grow in density over time? Is it possible to reconfigure and renovate parcels of land to add parking structures, residential structures, etc in between existing buildings? Is it possible to add parking on top of existing buildings? Residential units on top of existing buildings?
SJTC is such a disappointment considering it could've been so much better, or even somewhere in downtown. But moving forward, I think it still holds some promise and potential.
I read the article.
I like that it pulls from a farther retail area than planned. That is sales tax dollars coming in.
I don't like that it's success drains from other local resources like Regency and Avenues.
Geez, I even ran into someone from Ortega there who said they would rather drive to SJTC across the river than attempt to drive Blanding and OPM. That tells you just how bad OPM is getting.
As noted in the Pollo Tropical thread. SJTC success is coming with some new found costs, notably traffic. If they learn anything, its that they shouldn't repeat the OPM experience.
A shortcoming part of the article is the lack of notation with regards to future anchors. If retailers and eateries are really pulling in $60-$100psf of revenue, I would think the anchors, especially ones with no prior Jacksonville exposure would be jumping over themselves for the 2-3 anchor spots left.
While a recirculator would be beneficial to the whole development to keeps cars in place until the experience (shopping, eating, etc.) is complete, it is unrealistic to think that a retailer will pay an extra $5psf in rent to subsidize such a service, nor would a shopper pay to use it as they could just climb in their car and move it to their next locale.
I really dont feel like regency is doing bad. The regency area...yes. The mall is self is still alive. Actually, for me I pefer shopping at Regency. There is not one store the SJTC that I would shop at (for clothes) when I go out there, its only to eat. IMO to each its own.
^^^That's the first truly positive comment I have heard about the Regency Mall. Me personally? I feel like I might get shot everytime I go near Regency. The mall is really not surviving, anyways. It's nearly dead. It has been on a long decline ever since Montgomery Ward left there in the 90s.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 06, 2010, 01:20:49 AM
Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2010, 06:54:44 PM
Surprisingly good comments about this on FTU. Most people realize that it actually isn't urban and that it takes away from pre-existing areas/centers rather than reinforces them. Sounds like people wanted garages, higher density, apartments/office above the retail, etc.
Lakelander or anyone else: in your experience, how possible is it for a place like the town center to grow in density over time? Is it possible to reconfigure and renovate parcels of land to add parking structures, residential structures, etc in between existing buildings? Is it possible to add parking on top of existing buildings? Residential units on top of existing buildings?
The easiest thing to do is to change the land use and zoning requirements in a manner that forces future construction in the area to be walkable and transit friendly.
Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2010, 01:45:21 AM
^^^That's the first truly positive comment I have heard about the Regency Mall. Me personally? I feel like I might get shot everytime I go near Regency.
That is perception more than reality.
I know the Town Center can be unpopular here, but it is easily the single best thing that has happened to Jacksonville in the last ten years. The SJTC has, in very short time, brought dozens upon dozens of mid to high-end retailers and restaurants to Jacksonville that wouldn't have even touched the market otherwise. I don't care if it's not urban, or if it will only have a 30 year life cycle, or if the traffic and parking isn't ideal. It's bringing in tax money, and it's bettering quality of life in the city. It would never have happened downtown, at least not for another 20 years.
Boo-hoo for the Avenues and Regency. It's not like they didn't have their turn to lure retailers in from other places during their runs at the top. Getting upset about stores being taken away from either center by the SJTC is about as reasonable as being sad that Blockbuster is being bankrupted by Red Box. What goes around comes around. Plus, aside from Comp USA, I can't think of a single other store that moved from elsewhere in town to the Town Center, and the COMP USA was dying where it was anyway. Same with the Regency.
No, it's not perfect, but I just don't get the point in bashing one of few big-time Jacksonville success stories since landing the Super Bowl.
Its a regional shopping center. Nothing more, nothing less. Its really no different than what International Plaza has done for West Shore (Tampa), Volusia Mall for Daytona and Governor's Square for Tallahassee. However, I guess we make it more than it really is because its the first major shopping center to open in Jax since the Avenues (1990).
Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2010, 01:45:21 AM
^^^That's the first truly positive comment I have heard about the Regency Mall. Me personally? I feel like I might get shot everytime I go near Regency. The mall is really not surviving, anyways. It's nearly dead. It has been on a long decline ever since Montgomery Ward left there in the 90s.
IDK its just me. Ive never had any fear of going to Regency. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I was raised in a very "urban" environement. Regency, or anywhere in Jacksonville does not put any fear in my heart. I stayed in Arlington for three years and visited regency constantly. They personally have the stores that I shop at. IMO the mall is surviving, it may not have as many major anchors as it used to, but I honestly dont think Regency Or the avenues for that matter is going anywhere anytime soon.
I found it interesting that the article pointed out places such as Black Finn and Whiskey River opened in Downtown Charlotte. Made me a little sad. Only wishing DT could have landed some of those establishments. I dont really have anything against the SJTC other than the traffic mess at JTB and Gate.
Heck, at least they have it all decorated for Christmas, unlike Downtown. Again another sad looking DT Jax for Christmas, minus the Landing. Was in Tallahassee this weekend and their DT is all decorated!
^^^ I know right. The LEAST we could have done is decorated DT for christmas. I guess that is too much to ask. LOL
Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2010, 06:54:44 PM
Surprisingly good comments about this on FTU. Most people realize that it actually isn't urban and that it takes away from pre-existing areas/centers rather than reinforces them. Sounds like people wanted garages, higher density, apartments/office above the retail, etc.
In the site plan for Phase 3 (the phase with the proposed new anchors) it shows there will be a parking deck between Barnes & Noble and Dillard's. They tried to do some residential with Esplenade, but they tucked it away in the back of the center where no one could get to it. It failed.
A trolley from Best Buy to Target would be the best Solution. Then add parking decks at Best Buy, Dillards, and Target, and then just build over most of that parking out there. If they could then control the ingress and egress of people from Gate Parkway, SJTC might be able to actually build its way to legitimacy.
I think if they progress in a more dense and sustainable way, the Town Center could actually break the 30 year curse and become a long standing, prosperous neighborhood in Jax.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 06, 2010, 08:45:41 AM
I know the Town Center can be unpopular here, but it is easily the single best thing that has happened to Jacksonville in the last ten years. The SJTC has, in very short time, brought dozens upon dozens of mid to high-end retailers and restaurants to Jacksonville that wouldn't have even touched the market otherwise. I don't care if it's not urban, or if it will only have a 30 year life cycle, or if the traffic and parking isn't ideal. It's bringing in tax money, and it's bettering quality of life in the city. It would never have happened downtown, at least not for another 20 years.
Boo-hoo for the Avenues and Regency. It's not like they didn't have their turn to lure retailers in from other places during their runs at the top. Getting upset about stores being taken away from either center by the SJTC is about as reasonable as being sad that Blockbuster is being bankrupted by Red Box. What goes around comes around. Plus, aside from Comp USA, I can't think of a single other store that moved from elsewhere in town to the Town Center, and the COMP USA was dying where it was anyway. Same with the Regency.
No, it's not perfect, but I just don't get the point in bashing one of few big-time Jacksonville success stories since landing the Super Bowl.
And this is exactly what people thought when the Avenues opened. And before that, when Regency opened. In 35-30 years it will be supplanted by the "next big thing".
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 06, 2010, 01:20:49 AM
how possible is it for a place like the town center to grow in density over time? Is it possible to reconfigure and renovate parcels of land to add parking structures, residential structures, etc in between existing buildings? Is it possible to add parking on top of existing buildings? Residential units on top of existing buildings?
They're doing it in Virginia: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/28/AR2008052803262.html
I would say that it is definitely possible to add substantial density. Those massive parking lots surrounding the complex could be easily covered by multi-story lofts sitting atop parking garages with street level retail and restaraunts. IMO, the only major necessity would be a transit element connecting it to Downtown (perhaps via Southpoint/US1).
It won't happen without a change in land use and zoning. Right now, our code basically prohibits walkable development from happening in the area on a large scale without going PUD.
Quote from: cline on December 06, 2010, 11:50:51 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on December 06, 2010, 08:45:41 AM
I know the Town Center can be unpopular here, but it is easily the single best thing that has happened to Jacksonville in the last ten years. The SJTC has, in very short time, brought dozens upon dozens of mid to high-end retailers and restaurants to Jacksonville that wouldn't have even touched the market otherwise. I don't care if it's not urban, or if it will only have a 30 year life cycle, or if the traffic and parking isn't ideal. It's bringing in tax money, and it's bettering quality of life in the city. It would never have happened downtown, at least not for another 20 years.
Boo-hoo for the Avenues and Regency. It's not like they didn't have their turn to lure retailers in from other places during their runs at the top. Getting upset about stores being taken away from either center by the SJTC is about as reasonable as being sad that Blockbuster is being bankrupted by Red Box. What goes around comes around. Plus, aside from Comp USA, I can't think of a single other store that moved from elsewhere in town to the Town Center, and the COMP USA was dying where it was anyway. Same with the Regency.
No, it's not perfect, but I just don't get the point in bashing one of few big-time Jacksonville success stories since landing the Super Bowl.
And this is exactly what people thought when the Avenues opened. And before that, when Regency opened. In 35-30 years it will be supplanted by the "next big thing".
I always here people say this. I have only lived here for 6 years, so my question is, what stores oopened in regency and avenues that had not been available to people in the region. This is the case at the TC. Stores that otherwise were not availble unless you drove for hours. To my knowledge not many or not nearly as many as found at the TC. So if that is the case this mall willl most likely have more staying power than those others. Sure will a new hotspot most likely open up? Yep, but real cities have more than one hot spot. Thank god we have one.
I'm not into mall type retail as many of the others here but I believe stores like Parisian (before being bought out by Belk) and Pottery Barn are examples of stores that the Avenues introduced into the Jacksonville region.
I remember the Avenues having a Discovery Channel store and the first Disney Store in the area. Everything else was pretty standard mall stuff.
Quote from: St. Auggie on December 06, 2010, 01:42:03 PM
Quote from: cline on December 06, 2010, 11:50:51 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on December 06, 2010, 08:45:41 AM
I know the Town Center can be unpopular here, but it is easily the single best thing that has happened to Jacksonville in the last ten years. The SJTC has, in very short time, brought dozens upon dozens of mid to high-end retailers and restaurants to Jacksonville that wouldn't have even touched the market otherwise. I don't care if it's not urban, or if it will only have a 30 year life cycle, or if the traffic and parking isn't ideal. It's bringing in tax money, and it's bettering quality of life in the city. It would never have happened downtown, at least not for another 20 years.
Boo-hoo for the Avenues and Regency. It's not like they didn't have their turn to lure retailers in from other places during their runs at the top. Getting upset about stores being taken away from either center by the SJTC is about as reasonable as being sad that Blockbuster is being bankrupted by Red Box. What goes around comes around. Plus, aside from Comp USA, I can't think of a single other store that moved from elsewhere in town to the Town Center, and the COMP USA was dying where it was anyway. Same with the Regency.
No, it's not perfect, but I just don't get the point in bashing one of few big-time Jacksonville success stories since landing the Super Bowl.
And this is exactly what people thought when the Avenues opened. And before that, when Regency opened. In 35-30 years it will be supplanted by the "next big thing".
I always here people say this. I have only lived here for 6 years, so my question is, what stores oopened in regency and avenues that had not been available to people in the region. This is the case at the TC. Stores that otherwise were not availble unless you drove for hours. To my knowledge not many or not nearly as many as found at the TC. So if that is the case this mall willl most likely have more staying power than those others. Sure will a new hotspot most likely open up? Yep, but real cities have more than one hot spot. Thank god we have one.
When Regency opened it was the largest indoor mall in the southeast. It was also one of the more profitable malls in the country. So, it was the hotspot in the city. Now, not so much.
Hey,anyone remember Orange Park Mall?? The ever outward expansion.Note too the "Town Centre" themes such as Oakleaf.
Have not been to Regency in years and the very last visit proved the place had gone to potentially dangerous.
Have not been to the Avenues because SJTC always wins out.
(Marketing genius- named "St.Johns" rather than "Duval")
I like the mix of stores and open air theme-imagine what an improvement to close the road and parking between the storefronts to vehicles and open to pedestrian only.......
Perhaps the end of America will be marked by inability to further accommodate such historical expansion.
I typically only go to the Town Center if I need something from a store that is only located there, like Sephora- otherwise I still prefer stores at the Avenues, they seem to have more inventory than the ones at the TC. For example the GAP or BR have much more selection at their Avenues locations. The Belk at the Avenues also has a more high end selection of products than the Dillards at the TC.
QuoteIMO the mall is surviving, it may not have as many major anchors as it used to, but I honestly dont think Regency Or the avenues for that matter is going anywhere anytime soon.
Regency is running about a 35% vacancy rate AT CHRISTMAS right now and there have very few corporate stores as tenants as a percentage of overall mix. Also, the revenue/sq ft is very low when compared to its same-city peers. Those things added together clearly indicate Regency Mall is at a certain point in its life cycle. IMO, Simon needs to do something drastic with Regency before it follows down the same path as Normandy Mall and Gateway Mall. They need to look no further than Fortress and Roosevelt Square.
Was at the Town Center today. Captain, TC does have the PCT trolleys running routes end to end. I do share your same complaint about the Town Center in that the only residential component has failed b/c it was basically an afterthought in the design. You can't tell me you dont walk up and down the main strip of the St Johns Town Center and it doesnt remind you of King Street in Charleston... minus the residential component. Thats really where SJTC really missed a prime opportunity.
I for one think projects such as Tapestry Park should be encouraged in that area of town. It is becoming the heart of the city like it or not, might as well make it more liveable.
Normandy Mall, Gateway, Roosevelt Mall, Market Square Mall, Cedar Hills... (and quite a few others including ones in St Augustine)
All had plenty of visitors and stores to keep them shopping there.
What happened? People moved from the tighter city cores to the suburbs, and Regency and Orange Park Malls benefited. Avenues jumped in the fray, now they all are losing some to other malls. Regency and Avenues to SJTC, Orange Park to Oakleaf Town Center (the area at least, not the actual single zoned development).
In 10-15 years, there will be a bigger St Johns County mall that will hurt SJTC, or people will move to another part of town, maybe even back downtown one day (imagine that?) what would SJTC do? They will lose some business, its all a cycle.
But the saddest part of SJTC? It has turned into a drive to mall. Where are all of the housing/apartments? Instead of building places, they want to build more things like the Markets, or Zaxby's. The core of SJTC is walkable, but would you walk from Best Buy to Publix? Nope, its not the same area, you get in your car and drive it. And the amount of traffic there is Orange Parkesque in many ways.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 06, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2010, 01:45:21 AM
^^^That's the first truly positive comment I have heard about the Regency Mall. Me personally? I feel like I might get shot everytime I go near Regency. The mall is really not surviving, anyways. It's nearly dead. It has been on a long decline ever since Montgomery Ward left there in the 90s.
IDK its just me. Ive never had any fear of going to Regency. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I was raised in a very "urban" environement. Regency, or anywhere in Jacksonville does not put any fear in my heart. I stayed in Arlington for three years and visited regency constantly. They personally have the stores that I shop at. IMO the mall is surviving, it may not have as many major anchors as it used to, but I honestly dont think Regency Or the avenues for that matter is going anywhere anytime soon.
And how can you not feel safe with all those police cars!?!
Quote from: fieldafm on December 06, 2010, 09:40:43 PM
I for one think projects such as Tapestry Park should be encouraged in that area of town. It is becoming the heart of the city like it or not, might as well make it more liveable.
Absolutely.