Metro Jacksonville

Yay Richard Branson sees Florida HSR as a great investment!!

Forget the Regressive way to HSR!

WOULDN'T WANT TO SECOND-GUESS RICHARD BRANSON, who built a successful progressive empire now would we?

QuoteNovember 16, 2010 11:30 AM Eastern Time  
Partnership Formed to Pursue High Speed Rail (HSR) System in Florida
VINCI, OHL, Virgin, and Alstom Pledge to Include Private Financing in Any Bid

TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--A group of leading companies serving the rail transportation industry today announced they have formed a partnership to compete for high-speed rail opportunities in Florida. The companies in the partnershipâ€"all of whom are number one in their respective fieldsâ€"include: VINCI, OHL, Virgin, Alstom; and non-equity partners: Archer Western, AECOM, and PBS&J. Each of the partners boasts strong ties to Florida and a long history of doing business in the state.

“High Speed Rail in Florida will create thousands of much needed jobs quickly, and can fuel our emergence from the current recession. When the Public and Private sectors work together, we always achieve a better outcome”
.“High Speed Rail in Florida will create thousands of much needed jobs quickly, and can fuel our emergence from the current recession. When the Public and Private sectors work together, we always achieve a better outcome,” said Fadi Selwan, Business Development Director of VINCI Concessions.

The group’s proposal to design, build, finance, operate, and maintain the system will include a private financing dimension that offers the best solution for Florida once the specific bidding rules are established.

Richard Branson, Founder of Virgin, said, “High speed rail has proven to be a great driver of economic development, urban mobility, and a cleaner environment around the world. Virgin and our partners realize the importance of combining strong private expertise and finance with government investment to maximise the economic development benefits and ensure every dollar is wisely invested.”

Through the strong partnership, Virgin, VINCI, and OHL will operate the full turnkey system of state-of-the-art Very High Speed trains built and maintained by Alstom. Alstom, VINCI, OHL and Archer Western will lead the engineering, design, supply (consistent with Buy America) and construction aspects of the project with the support of engineering companies AECOM and PBS&J. Equity partners will include: VINCI, OHL, Alstom, and Virgin.

Officials of all the companies in the partnership reiterated the importance of the group’s proven ability to bring forward public-private financing solutions and emphasized the potential of high-speed rail to create local jobs and sustainable economic growth.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20101116006763/en/Partnership-Formed-Pursue-High-Speed-Rail-HSR

I don't have a problem with private companies putting up their own money for it.  Privately financed and operated projects typically turn out better than their public counterparts.  I also assume under this scenario, they could possibly better address some of the issues that could hamper its success.  Good luck to them.

I would love for sir Richard to have a vested interest in our state.  Perhaps he could start with his spaceport at Cecil.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2010, 07:33:58 PM
Privately financed and operated projects typically turn out better than their public counterparts. 

That's a complete and utter myth. It generally depends on whether we are talking about a public good or a private good.

Quotein the presence of asymmetric information it is difficult to achieve the expected shifting of risks to the private sector. Given the complexity of such contractual structures, although transactions costs become more transparent, they may also be expected to be higher than in a vertically integrated public sector provider. The benefits may thus depend on the private sector being able to manage the process of investment and introduction into service more efficiently than traditional public sector transport providers.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/wiw/wiwrsa/ersa03p68.html

BTW private defense contractors have generally been over-priced compared to our military.




Here is an interesting article on the subject as well:
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/china-financed-infrastructure-spending/

Quote from: FayeforCure on November 19, 2010, 07:55:43 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2010, 07:33:58 PM
Privately financed and operated projects typically turn out better than their public counterparts.

That's a complete and utter myth. It generally depends on whether we are talking about a public good or a private good.

Here's one example that would suggest your "utter myth" quote may be off base.  The privately financed Clarion Health People Mover was constructed for a fraction of the skyway, the operational costs are a fraction of the skyway's and its in service 24 hours a day.  Two projects that provide a similar service except the privately financed option constructed 15 years later was done for less than half the cost and provides better service. 

http://www.schwagerdavis.com/pdf/clarian.pdf

QuoteThe trains run automatically during the work day (5:30AM - 10PM) to handle greater travel demand, departing every six minutes.  Overnight (10PM-5:30AM), they operate on an "on-call" basis.

QuoteSDI anticipates the system's life span to be 30 years and its annual operating budget approximately $1,000,000.

QuoteClarian Health Partners invested $40 million into its people mover system, including discretionary funds earmarked for community improvements and station enhancements.  Here is how the total budget breaks down:

39% - Stations, walkways, connectors, & maintenance facility

21% - Guideway structure

16% - Train, control, communication and power distribution technology

10% - Site improvements, utility relocations and traffic control

9% - General conditions and professional services

5% - Pneumatic tubing installation - not APM-system related

QuoteThe system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-05/story/after-20-years-jacksonville-skyway-remains-punchline

Btw, the skyway is 2.5 miles and the Clarion Health peoplemover is 1.5 miles.

$40 million/1.5 miles = $26.7 million/mile

$183 million/2.5 miles = $73.2 million/mile

Really beautiful project in Indianapolis!

It doesn't surpries me that the skyway constructed in jax cost as much as it did.

There could be multiple reasons for it and I won't devote the time to research them all.........but potentially:

1. 15 years later, the private company was further along the learning curve of this new technology, thus making it less expensive to construct
2. Just because the skyway was publicly financed doesn't mean they don't use private contractors for construction. And we all know the way contracts get awarded in FL........usually no-bid contracts.
3. The clarion financed people mover, has a very specific functionality........a sort of micro-cosm that doesn't need interconnectivity. Thus ensuring successful utilization.

I'm sure there are many more reasons.........as said in the study I quoted where the public private partnerships are evaluated in the country that has longest been using them..........the complexity of the arrangements make it hard to evaluate thye positives and negatives. Here is their conclusion:

QuotePrivate finance of transport infrastructure, either through direct private provision or through public-private partnerships has developed rather further in the UK than in most European countries over the past two decades.

(snip)

This paper reviews the UK experience in terms of developments of the national air, rail and road networks and local public transport (especially light rail systems). The paper highlights the variety of methods of introducing private finance and assesses these against the criteria of risk bearing, transaction cost reduction, and efficiency in delivery. The key problems are identified as relating to the treatment of network effects and the vertical separation of infrastructure and service (unbundling). The framework is then used to assess the extent to which private sector provision impacts on regional development either positively, by advancing the provision of infrastructure which can provide wider benefits, or negatively by becoming a drag on future development by imposing higher costs of infrastructure usage and maintenance.

It becomes clear that a distinction needs to be drawn between infrastructure which is mainly used for intra-regional transport and that which has an inter-regional or international dimension.

Thank you for using anecdotal experience and then generalizing it as Republicans often do.

Even so I like your example of a limited (relatively small) project that was more efficiently accomplished through private financing.

Wow, now I'm being associated with Republicans. Go figure. ;D

Quote from: FayeforCure on November 19, 2010, 09:06:06 PM
There could be multiple reasons for it and I won't devote the time to research them all.........but potentially:

1. 15 years later, the private company was further along the learning curve of this new technology, thus making it less expensive to construct

I made a mistake on the years. Clarion Health's system was proposed in 2001 and opened in 2003.  The Skyway was originally proposed in 1971.  The Skyway's first 0.7 mile leg opened in 1989, while the Southbank route opened in 2000.

Quote2. Just because the skyway was publicly financed doesn't mean they don't use private contractors for construction. And we all know the way contracts get awarded in FL........usually no-bid contracts.

Ok, I see no reason to really dive into this one.  I'll trust your word.

Quote3. The clarion financed people mover, has a very specific functionality........a sort of micro-cosm that doesn't need interconnectivity. Thus ensuring successful utilization.

All transit systems need interconnectivity.  Clarion's connectivity is provided by linking medical destinations together.  Unfortunately, despite the significant financial investment, the skyway fails to directly connect with with most of downtown's major destinations.

Quote from: FayeforCure on November 19, 2010, 09:06:06 PM
2. Just because the skyway was publicly financed doesn't mean they don't use private contractors for construction. And we all know the way contracts get awarded in FL........usually no-bid contracts.

really Faye?  

If so, please explain to me what the CCNA is....you know, the Consultants Competitive Negotiations Act (Chapter 287.055 F.S.)...the one that requires professonal services jobs (non-construction) to be selected on qualifications...but construction jobs are bid on by price....its pretty much Florida law!

Quote from: stephendare on November 19, 2010, 09:14:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2010, 09:09:42 PM
Wow, now I'm being associated with Republicans. Go figure. ;D

Just wait a minute, Lake.  Before she's done, you will be part of the 'middle aged white conservatives' conspiracy.

::)

Stephen, you missed out "male"!


Of course there are outliers in any group though.......as even I was a Republican at one time :)


Thanks for your response thelakelander. I appreciate your input.


All in all I hope Florida HSR will become a showcase as the first operational true HSR in the USA!

I've never been a Republican and never plan on becoming one.  By the same token, I don't plan on becoming a Democrat either.  I'm not really a fan of the two party system.  I prefer to see things done than to play politics and stick with general party platforms.

QuoteAll in all I hope Florida HSR will become a showcase as the first operational true HSR in the USA!

Then they should toss out the current plan and start from scratch

And before you make any brass assumptions... I am not middle aged but I do hate progress, newfangled ideas and like to complain about the way it used to be before all these carpetbagging, hippy Democrats came in and screwed everything up with their opium and free love  ;)

QuoteI prefer to see things done

That doesn't make a lick of sense.
Anger and complaining, that's what made America great.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2010, 09:38:16 PM
I've never been a Republican and never plan on becoming one.  By the same token, I don't plan on becoming a Democrat either.  I'm not really a fan of the two party system.  I prefer to see things done than to play politics and stick with general party platforms.

I fully agree. That's why I will support those who have the best interest of Amtrak at heart!

The tea-party platform and Republican platform offers very little support for rail. So if we want things done, we need to elect leaders that support rail, and we all know what party they can be found in most.

As a famous quote says: People who demand neutrality in any situation are usually not neutral but in favor of the status quo.

I am not a fan of the two-party system either that's why I elected to get an Independent to represent Florida in the US Senate: Charlie Crist.

I hope that was your choice too.

Your missing the point that California will see success because it has carefully built and supported an intrastate rail network for 30 years. They have built demand and support and we have built FREEway's.

The Peoples HSR Train? Really Faye, because it is HSR and it is Florida, does NOT make it a good or progressive plan... Mechanical TV WAS a progressive plan and it failed... So did Quad Sound... and so will a train that runs from a parking garage, to an amusement park, to an airport. Where the hell are the Floridian's in this equation?  Oh I know, "LAKELAND!" ...and OcK leads the Tea Party eh? Hardly...

Change the damn plan and tap TAMPA UNION STATION as well as DOWNTOWN ORLANDO THROUGH SANFORD and this train WILL fly. Give up the Orlando-Miami leg as part of a Tampa-Miami system and get busy connecting Tampa-Sarasota-Ft. Myers and Miami, then it WILL fly. From Sanford turn north to Jacksonville, and from Miami run straight up the coast to Jacksonville... Compliment the whole network with Amtrak locals to the panhandle, Ocala, Gainesville and anchor them to Tampa, Jacksonville and Orlando and it WILL fly. You see Faye, I love the idea of HSR, it's just the current plan that will fail. If we indeed are first off the block to get running and this thing flops in ridership as we railroader's predict it will take down every other US HSR plan with it. We can't afford that error no matter which Daddy Warbucks likes it.

OCKLAWAHA

I am wondering if the Tea-Party were educated a bit about All the costs of Roads V Rail if we might be able to find some support there.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R0DucIljJ5k/TKRePjZGbtI/AAAAAAAAJA0/OX5wZRRNR4E/s400/TGVTourss.jpg)

Same old downtown train stations. One has to ask how did the TGV get downtown?

OCKLAWAHA

I support HSR and rail in general.  But it has to make sense and the folks who are being asked to pay for it must be convinced it is a good idea.  IMHO... HSR and commuter rail proponents (like myself) have done a poor job of convincing Ma and Pa taxpayer that this is a good use of their funds and support.

Railling(sorry) against those who oppose it with name calling etc serves no purpose.

I could not agree more BT that is what I was trying to say with Respect to the Tea-Party.

This is my biggest problem with todays version of politicians.  Rather than convince and cajole an opponent to see or at least support a particular view they now simply vilify them and preach to the choir.  The choirs sure do like it... but nothing really gets done.

why is eveybody against the tampa high speed location harts main bus tranfers station across the street. tampa union station will not have a stop till 2012 when the  n-s brt comes online. i do not care rest of high speen  line they need to tranfer  occc to  downdown orlando,  kathleen station is better than  usf station because  public transit connection to downtown lakeland .

there is nothing wrong with Tampa's proposed location...it is actually closer to the CBD than the Amtrak station....and facilitates extending rail along I-275 out to Westshore area.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2010, 02:57:26 PM
there is nothing wrong with Tampa's proposed location...it is actually closer to the CBD than the Amtrak station....and facilitates extending rail along I-275 out to Westshore area.

Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

OCKLAWAHA

Definition of politics.................shoveling shit for the masses! Some of the masses know better.......rail is good for a variety of purposes...construction, operation, maintenance plus the infill...............one dollar invested, six dollar return, but what do I know?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free  

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2010, 07:59:17 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
Great TU, we understand that you had a hand in it's planning at some point but the plan still reeks to high heavens. Man why would you want a train that only connects with buses at a freaking garage? Imagine if it pulled in next to Amtrak and TBARTA commuter rail... Oop's that's over a UNION STATION.

well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free   

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

Yes, well, when a main deciding factor in a rail plan becomes not whether it actually works but "we got the land for free" then you really have to sit back and reevaluate that dumbassery, no? If planners are considering such irrelevant factors, it doesn't speak well for the project. IMO, most rail projects would be better served reoccupying the original lines that were built for that purpose, and with almost no exceptions, are still around. Pay the money and have functional rail where it's supposed to be, instead of some other random place because the land was free. Geez...

Chris...my response to Ock was regarding the Tampa station location, not the route itself....so my response to you is this...

Generically, the original lines you speak of are usually owned and controlled by a freight rail company...so you'd first have to get a shared-use agreement with them.

Furthermore, in this case, the CSX route from Orlando to Tampa has lots of curves and at-grade crossings...it makes true high speed rail virtually impossible....on the flip side, I-4 is pretty much a straight shot with no at-grade crossings...which makes it ideal for high speed rail.

Many people look at Europe's passenger rail system with envy (as they should)...but what is not said is that their freight rail system is nothing close to ours.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2010, 07:59:17 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
well Ock...right now there is no plan for anything but buses in Tampa....the proposed rail system would have connected with the HSR station....as would the airport-downtown route (still on the table).

As for Amtrak, it currently runs 1 train a day...not exactly something that should be the lynchpin in the design....especially when the other site has the local bus terminal right next door.

All that said, there were 3 main reasons the current site was chosen:

1. The curve needed to take HSR from the I-4 ROW to Union Station meant lots of impacts
2. There was no easy eay to ever extend HSR from Union Station to the Tampa airport or Pinellas County
3. The land was given to FDOT for free  

Now, yes, I agree that running intercity rail along the CSX tracks would have been far cheaper and perhaps more ideal...but the decision was made that speed was paramount.,..and CSX doesn't seem too interested in sharing those tracks anyway.

The station location would be fixed with a bigger adjustment to bring the HSR line back to/or close to the alignment of CSX making Plant City, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, Orlando DOWNTOWN, Winter Park, Sanford...  Not that you would run HSR to EVERY one of those stations, but you COULD abandon passenger service on the CSX route and use a multi track HSR line for TRUE HSR as well as GREATLY enhanced local services. I agree the CSX line twists and turns around the lakes, and in some cases those lakes offer a way to straighten out the curve radii, otherwise you take it up and over the obstacles leaving the CSX on it or below it according to their needs. Think of what this would do for intrastate Amtrak? This is the main point of my argument and refusal to support the plan - do it right or don't do it at all. California IS planning on doing it right and we're not. We'll all pay the price for the rush in to be first with disregard for railroading's facts of life.  

1. The CSX route takes care of the curve.

2. Union Station is at the foot of the former lines to St. Petersburg and Brooksville passing by the airport.

3. We might actually have to invest in the plant.


OCKLAWAHA

ock all you are really talk about is  communer  rail  not intercity rail,  what i herd if state di do all the systems it would be two different  lines   sunrail to lakeland,  tbarta  tampa to lakeland  1.5-2.5  hr  tampa  to orlando   peak-offpeek

A one stop shop is always better then a mall... TAMPA UNION STATION was that shop when it was saved from the wrecking ball, it was the planned center for all rail until the state got stupid. I'd still like to know how or who convinced them this is the way to build a railroad. When I confronted Dr. Dockery in person at a HSR meeting where I was planning table leader, he honestly could NOT answer any of the questions I rolled in front of him.

Wendy's wanted to know "WHERE'S THE BEEF?" ...and I'd like to know where's the demand and substance?

OCKLAWAHA

i bet reason the state change plans was  it will profit if it disney, airport,  csx plan it will loose money ever year,  state will have come up with the differnce but  the state  does not want to pay passenger rail  cost  every year like  other states

Seriously doubt it will profit in the middle of I-4 or along the CSX ROW.  Disney also has not indicated that they would remove their direct bus connection between their property and the airport as well.  As long as that system remains in place (competition wise, it makes sense for Disney to keep it), its not a good idea to count on Disney for significant ridership.

the reason state pick i-4 over csx is  too many on inpact local  business through  lakeland, auburndale ,haines city.

The state picked I-4 because the ROW was free.  It had nothing to do with community impacts.  The cities would have been better off with reliable intercity rail that actually connected their downtowns together. Now most will get completely bypassed.

If ANYONE thinks they can profit from passenger in the USA I've got a bridge to sell them...the economics are just not there for any passenger transport (highway-air-water-rail) to profit without massive infusions of cash at the government level. The danger here is the pie-in-the-sky numbers dreaming the State has engaged in with the media and the public, so when it fails to meet expectations its going to bring down the HSR house. Seems like every week for several years HSR cheerleaders such as Faye, have rolled out another high profile "celebrity expert" to tell us how great its going to be. I'm hoping if we get NOTHING else from Rick Scott, that we get this thing re-re-reconsidered, its just a terrible bad plan.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: yapp1850 on November 26, 2010, 11:26:01 AM
the reason state pick i-4 over csx is  too many on inpact local  business through  lakeland, auburndale ,haines city.

that was a significant part of the decision on what the Locally Preferred Alternative (LPA) should be.

I recommend that folks interested in the I-4 vs. CSX issue should read the environmental documents (FEIS)...they can be found here...

http://flhsr.squarespace.com/reports/

do you think we can do high speed rail and  csx type train

Unless I overlooked it, the study did not seriously consider using conventional passenger rail technology.  Forget about getting up to 120mph and look at reliable intercity rail by upgrading existing Amtrak service to corridor status.  Just considering it would make the FEIS null and void since it was never truly evaluated in the first place.

Quote from: yapp1850 on November 26, 2010, 10:04:44 PM
do you think we can do high speed rail and  csx type train

My question would be...why? How did we come to the conclusion that this state can't effectively be served with a better investment in conventional rail service?  When did it become HSR or bust?

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2010, 10:05:16 PM
Unless I overlooked it, the study did not seriously consider using conventional passenger rail technology.

The direction from the beginning was that the train had to be able to reach speeds of 120mph, which can be done with the current Amtrak Acela train....but as noted in the study, the CSX route was discarded because of community impacts in Hillsborough and Polk counties.

Sort of like there's already a desired answer but throwing a few other modes out there to attempt to indicate that several options were seriously evaluated?

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2010, 10:42:24 PM
Sort of like there's already a desired answer but throwing a few other modes out there to attempt to indicate that several options were seriously evaluated?

that is how the game works

I figured that.  Unfortunately, we can shoot ourselves in the foot by eliminating alternative options too early in the process.

So like the Skyway, and like BRT, some know-nothing that got caught up in the glitter and zip of a high speed train someplace, decided for us it would be HSR or NOTHING.

DAMN REALITY! FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Any attempt to say we can't do HSR and Freight together ignores how the European High Speed Trains get into and out of downtown in many big cities. They do it and so could we. The idea that I-4 will be a way to prevent sprawl (as Faye and the HSR team constantly say) when there is NOTHING around I-4 today, and thus the only development there will be SPRAWL, is just another example of our own:

"Streetcars are slow and MUST compete with automobiles in the streets and thus the Skyway is superior technology in every way..."  (JTA lead planner)

This is Florida double speak and to shut us all up, we'll parade a endless line of high profile fools before the public and tell them how blessed they are that our consultant's are working so hard for the right thing. I wouldn't touch this project for any amount of money unless they purposed my team with a complete reevaluation.

OCKLAWAHA

Yup, Sir Richard Branson is a know-nothing according to Ock.

Wow, this know-nothing did this?

QuoteBranson has experience in trains. Virgin Trains is the fastest growing rail company in Britain. It’s grown from 14 million customers to more than 28 million customers in just the last six years.

http://blogs.forbes.com/kymmcnicholas/2010/11/16/richard-branson-from-rockets-to-high-speed-trains/?boxes=Homepagechannels

Hmmm, I wonder who that know-nothing is now?

http://video.forbes.com/fvn/business/richard-branson-the-virgin-group-invests-in-florida-high-speed-railways

Virgin is part of a consortium that is bidding on Florid's HSR

Quote from: FayeforCure on December 01, 2010, 10:32:26 PM
Yup, Sir Richard Branson is a know-nothing according to Ock.

Wow, this know-nothing did this?

QuoteBranson has experience in trains. Virgin Trains is the fastest growing rail company in Britain. It’s grown from 14 million customers to more than 28 million customers in just the last six years.

http://blogs.forbes.com/kymmcnicholas/2010/11/16/richard-branson-from-rockets-to-high-speed-trains/?boxes=Homepagechannels

Hmmm, I wonder who that know-nothing is now?

http://video.forbes.com/fvn/business/richard-branson-the-virgin-group-invests-in-florida-high-speed-railways

Yup, just as you know nothing about rail and/or transportation, your Virgin fellow knows nothing about Florida's rail, historic patterns, and apparently anything else about passenger rail in the USA. Faye, you can't seriously know anything about the subject and come up with such hollow promises as, "it will pay for itself..." because it won't, that's a huge lie, and I suspose when it fails, it will be anybody's fault except the administration at hand.

You really didn't think I know about Virgin?  Sure Virgin runs trains in the EU, and Branson knows all about it, but if this guy thinks he is going to repeat his success with the current Florida plan then somebody is making a buck under the table. Either he has bought into the absolute lies about what this train will do - and thus been duped or Florida's good Ol' Boy politics have struck again. Could be the guy is getting some big bucks to make a completely useless plan look good to the transportation ignorant residents. Huge kickbacks anyone? Spell it BOONDOGGLE, and Branson could be complacent in the scheme, if this is the case then the poor guy is being worked better then a $3 dollar tourist at an alligator farm. I guess this takes us back to the bulk of your "experts" like Julia Roberts, Governor Milton and the mayor of Point Barrow Alaska, and the development authority of Saint Lucie Sound (all Florida experts I'm sure).

Bottom line Faye, if you LOVE JTA - YOUR GOING TO LOVE FLORIDA HSR...

For people that think, Amtrak's current ridership for the ENTIRE state is 2,712 people a day a number far removed from the 2.4 million annual riders these nuts claim will ride the magic High Speed Rail train that gets nowhere near where most of them live, or work... 50 years of turning our back on rail and all we have to do is dump a few billion into a glittering dream and POOF its fixed forever. Faye? Want to buy a bridge?

OCKLAWAHA

all this high speed  train is a tourist  train  mainly  relying on tourist orlando airport,occ,disney  they do not care obout  tampa or olando

which florida high speed rail team do you want to win the contract in why

Quote from: yapp1850 on December 02, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
which florida high speed rail team do you want to win the contract in why

NONE! I am hoping the new governor and his "Tea Party" friends kill this stupid project once and for all...

Then I would hope for someone to come along with a sensible replacement project that would establish a California like fast-frequent-train program on routes that are already in place.

The first step would be public investment in improving capacity - speed - signaling - crossing protection - stations throughout the state.

As demand built and more trains were added, crossings would be replaced by overpasses, track would be straightened, additional tracks added, speeds increased... This step would be repeated over and over, each time upping the ante.

In its final form the railroad would look just like Fayes high speed rail system, only it would have:

Passengers
Better located stations and facilities - city center to city center
Like California's HSR, the HSR track would have evolved to full but parallel (to current rail lines) separation between cities.
Amtrak COULD use the same track though the HSR trains would be faster...


OCKLAWAHA

i predit there will be 3 routes and 1 tourist route
1 tampa,kathleen rd,downtown orlando
2 tampa, oia
3 tampa,kathleen,disney,occ,oia
4 oia,occ,downtown orlando,disney,oia                                                                                                                                 Tokyo-Osaka by Shinkansen  2.25-4.15 japan is talking about  bringing the n700-i to florida

Even if this brain dead plan gets an okay, there will NEVER be more then ONE ROUTE between Tampa and Orlando. That includes any stops, airports etc... ONE ROUTE ONLY.

Orlando-Tampa (down I-4 from airport to parking garage via an amusement park...)
Orlando-Miami (this might die with the bankruptcies of the Orlando-Tampa operators and the State)
Miami-Tampa (supposedly someday)

OCKLAWAHA

if we did start a passenger rail on csx  tracks but tea party wills no like it they do no want   tax pay for  never ending operation cost every year  like    California  so if it does not make a profit it should not ever be built period.

More Federal funding on the way (maybe this is a bribe for Gov. Scott to keep it alive)....

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/more-federal-rail-funding-florida

With this money, the Feds are now paying for over 85% of the cost....wouldn't it be great if other transit projects could get that kind of share!

^ Thanks to the idiot Walker in WI!  ::)  Educated people in my home state are pissed because the uneducated were fed a bunch of BS during the election campaign and they believed it.  Walker and the GOP had them all convinced that they would be able to get the 810 million redirected for road building even though the Feds said over and over again that wouldn't happen.  Now FL gets to reap the benefits. 

With any luck Scott will be smarter then his brethern and just flat out KILL THE DAMN THING. If he doesn't Florida-High-Speed-Rail is going to be the death of HSR in America.

Also, why in hell would anyone think this thing could possibly make a profit? Exactly TWO high speed lines in the world make money beyond their considerable expense. Osaka-Tokyo and Paris-Lyon, Florida's boondoggle won't come close to either.  Nobody want's to ride Amtrak from Jacksonville to Miami now because it takes WAY TOO LONG. So Florida HSR is planning to go from Tampa to Miami VIA ORLANDO... WAY TOO LONG AGAIN!

"It will make a profit..." is a huge lie and the transportation professionals know it. Who is going to tell, when so many hands are in our cookie jar?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 09, 2010, 05:58:47 PM
With any luck Scott will be smarter then his brethern and just flat out KILL THE DAMN THING. If he doesn't Florida-High-Speed-Rail is going to be the death of HSR in America.

Also, why in hell would anyone think this thing could possibly make a profit? Exactly TWO high speed lines in the world make money beyond their considerable expense. Osaka-Tokyo and Paris-Lyon, Florida's boondoggle won't come close to either.  Nobody want's to ride Amtrak from Jacksonville to Miami now because it takes WAY TOO LONG. So Florida HSR is planning to go from Tampa to Miami VIA ORLANDO... WAY TOO LONG AGAIN!

"It will make a profit..." is a huge lie and the transportation professionals know it. Who is going to tell, when so many hands are in our cookie jar?

OCKLAWAHA

But but but Uncle Ock,

What if they actually did build beyond than one route? Then, would it be better than nothing?

-Josh

The second route is the ORLANDO-MIAMI line which due to geography is the Achilles heal of the whole project. Go straight south and the line is cheaper, but passes through NOTHING until it gets to West Palm Beach. Go south via the CSX and the line is somewhat longer through Winter Haven and Sebring, this is a great route for a very fast conventional train but high speed...not so much. That only leaves the coast, then one has to decide do we go from Orlando to DAYTONA? or TITUSVILLE? or COCOA? or MELBOURNE? The project currently plans on Cocoa which completely leaves the DAYTONA METRO and TITUSVILLE high and dry. Cocoa also causes a very ill planned 110 degree turn from a southwest-northeast route to a route going south. It is THAT turn that kills any speed advantage they imagine between Miami and Tampa. So if the curve kills the Miami-Tampa speed, and the out of the way Orlando Airport station kills the Orlando-TAMPA speed then...

"AUNTIE EM! AUNTIE EM! IT'S A TWISTER! IT'S A TWISTER!"

At that point, assuming it ever got to a third line, the only redeeming value would be to link Tampa with Miami via the route that is ALREADY IN PLACE! ...and a whole bunch shorter.  Then we could cut our losses and cut the Miami-Orlando route down to 5 or 6 daily trains each way at least between Cocoa and Miami, the Orlando-Cocoa segment because it goes to OIA and NOT ORLANDO, will die a natural death and become a sometimes used freight link to Port Canaveral. North of Cocoa the trains might continue on to Jacksonville via the Florida East Coast, but don't look for any more money to be blown on stupidly planned flying trains.

With all of this my railroad gut says, if we continue... We will get:

A poorly routed HSR line from OIA to downtown Tampa. It will fail in ridership, cause sprawl, and be subject to frequent threats of service cuts.

A freight line from OIA to COCOA and hopefully the next 4-6 miles over to the Port Canaveral facilities, otherwise it might be abandoned completely not long after being built.

A useful HSR line on the lower east coast from COCOA to MIAMI, hey at least we salvaged something!

MAYBE a decent HrSR line from TAMPA to MIAMI via Bartow - West Lake Wales.

I doubt we'll ever see anything going down the coast south of TAMPA to MIAMI via Alligator Alley. Jacksonville is simply screwed, as is everything else north and west of Orlando, hell Tallahassee hasn't even pushed Amtrak to restore service through OCALA and WALDO... and don't expect Scott to go begging for it.

Damn nephew Josh, I sound downright Apocryphal don't I?



OCKLAWAHA

the ORL-MIA route has not been determined....the 2 primary options are to follow the Beachline Expwy. east to I-95 and then south or to follow the Turnpike south and then follow I-95.

Would they be willing to lend money for some bus rapid transit? ;D

QuoteJapan May Offer $210 Million Loan for Florida High-Speed Train to Help Bid


Japan may offer as much as $210 million in loans to help pay for a Florida high-speed railway as a Central Japan Railway Co.-led group competes against Asian and European companies to build the first U.S. bullet-train line.

State-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation may lend as much as 60 percent of the Florida project’s overall funding shortfall as part of JR Central’s bid, Tadashi Maeda, head of corporate planning, said in an interview in Tokyo yesterday. The project has a funding gap of about $350 million, according to Florida Rail Enterprise, the state agency responsible for it.

Japan’s offer may help JR Central compete for the $2.7 billion Florida contract against possible bids from Alstom SA, Siemens AG, South Korea’s Hyundai Rotem Co. and a venture between General Electric Co. and China’s CSR Corp. Florida Rail is due to release bidding details for the line, linking Tampa and Orlando, as early as this month, said Chief Operating Officer Nazih Haddad.

“Government support is vital for getting this kind of big contract,” said Masayuki Kubota, who oversees the equivalent of $1.9 billion in assets in Tokyo at Daiwa SB Investments Ltd. “Any big project has its own risk, but I think JR Central will manage the risk properly.”

JBIC may consider taking an equity stake in the Florida project, said Maeda. It isn’t planning to ask the U.S. government to guarantee any loan, he said.

full article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-09/japan-may-offer-210-million-loan-for-florida-high-speed-train.html

Quote from: thelakelander on December 10, 2010, 06:21:35 AM
Would they be willing to lend money for some bus rapid transit? ;D

Quote

China might...if it was for that crazy hovercraft bus that floats over the cars!

...And Senator Nelson is telling Scott that with the new money, Florida won't have to ante up any more cash... How much you want to bet these boys are about to take a bath in a tub of red ink!

Splish-Splash

OCKLAWAHA ;D

You have to figure.. these private investors(say GE Capital for instance) are getting indications of government backing if their investments flop.

The more and more you dig into Florida's HSR, the more you realize it's corporate welfare and an unecessary burden on Florida taxpayers.

I haven't seen anything that bails out the private investors...please share

As an addition to my comment above, this article implies that the private investors will take on much of the ridership risk....which is why they are all likely to do their own investment-grade ridership study before putting in a final bid

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/corporate/florida-sidetracks-rail-but-international-builders-are-all-aboard/1140019

QuoteDockery said the private companies are talking about putting $300 million to $400 million on the table, which would cover the $200 million for construction not covered by the federal government.

She's particularly intrigued, she said, by the possibility of a train car manufacturing plant opening in Florida that could supply high speed rail projects throughout the country.

"So for no investment," she said. "We get an incredible return."

I'm not a big fan of the plan as proposed but I am starting to come around to agree with Paula Dockery on some things regarding it.  If there are private companies out there willing to share the risks, throw in hundreds of millions of their own money and possibly open railcar manufacturing plants in the state, jump on it.

As the Atlanta to Jacksonville leg is getting traction as part of the SEHSR it may be smarter to turn the second leg north instead of south to Miami.

Be better for high speed trains is they canned the Orlando-Tampa nonsense and built straight up the coast.


OCKLAWAHA

America 2050 Ranking of Short, Medium and Long Corridors makes the case for Florida!!

(http://dc.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/potential-rail-corridors-larger1.jpg)

(http://dc.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/railbest.jpg)

QuoteBackers of high-speed rail deride report critical of plan

Supporters of the planned high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa are firing back at the authors of a study critical of the $2.7 billion project, saying the report contained "half-truths and outright falsities."

And, train backers say, Florida transit officials already have proposed and intend to enforce strong contract language that would protect taxpayers against cost overruns or spending money on operation and maintenance costs.

Robert Poole, a co-author of the report filed for the libertarian think tank Reason Foundation, warned last week that Florida taxpayers could lose billions of dollars on high-speed rail because many train projects have gone over budget and drawn fewer riders than projected.

He recommended the same safeguards that state officials say have been a part of the plan for the train for years.

But Poole said this week that he is "very skeptical" the state could be held harmless. If Florida can avoid such responsibilities, he said, "they have my blessing. Go ahead and do it."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-14/news/os-high-speed-rail-response-20110114_1_high-speed-rail-high-speed-train-train-projects

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 13, 2011, 01:07:34 PM
America 2050 Ranking of Short, Medium and Long Corridors makes the case for Florida!!

(http://dc.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/potential-rail-corridors-larger1.jpg)

not sure a score of less than 14 "makes the case" when others are 18 or 19

Once again tufsu1, the 50 million visitor riders aren't included in that score. If only 5% of them ride ie 2.5 million riders..........we will easily meet projected ridership of 2.4 million passengers.

From lakelander's posted article in the Orlando Sentinel:

QuotePoole served on Scott's transition team looking at transportation issues but did not prepare the Reason report for the governor. Poole said he has not discussed the 24-page paper with Scott.


Supporters were upset by the study and maintain that Poole is little more than an agent of road builders and auto interests who can be counted on to present "ambiguously formulated fears" casting trains in the worst light possible.

Ross Capon, president of the pro-transit nonprofit National Association of Railroad Passengers, called Poole and his co-author Wendell Cox "hired guns."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-14/news/os-high-speed-rail-response-20110114_1_high-speed-rail-high-speed-train-train-projects

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 17, 2011, 10:23:09 AM
Once again tufsu1, the 50 million visitor riders aren't included in that score. If only 5% of them ride ie 2.5 million riders..........we will easily meet projected ridership of 2.4 million passengers.

Do we even know where it's going?  From where to where?  From the looks of it, the route (and therefore endpoints) haven't been determined.  You're going to have a hard sell getting 2.5 million riders on it if it doesn't connect to any other form of transit.

I agree Faye....I was just suggesting that the report you cited doesn't "make the case".

Quote from: Doctor_K on January 17, 2011, 11:26:59 AM

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 17, 2011, 10:23:09 AM
Once again tufsu1, the 50 million visitor riders aren't included in that score. If only 5% of them ride ie 2.5 million riders..........we will easily meet projected ridership of 2.4 million passengers.

Do we even know where it's going?  From where to where?  From the looks of it, the route (and therefore endpoints) haven't been determined.  You're going to have a hard sell getting 2.5 million riders on it if it doesn't connect to any other form of transit.

From downtown Tampa through Lakeland, Disney, I-Drive, and finally the Orlando airport.

And while the transit systems we have may not be ideal, there are local transit connections existing at all the stops....and in fact, Disney runs the largest transit system in Florida

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: Doctor_K on January 17, 2011, 11:26:59 AM
Do we even know where it's going?  From where to where?  From the looks of it, the route (and therefore endpoints) haven't been determined.  You're going to have a hard sell getting 2.5 million riders on it if it doesn't connect to any other form of transit.

From downtown Tampa through Lakeland, Disney, I-Drive, and finally the Orlando airport.

And while the transit systems we have may not be ideal, there are local transit connections existing at all the stops....and in fact, Disney runs the largest transit system in Florida

So 10-11 miles from Disney to I-Drive, another 10-11 miles from I-Drive to OIA.

Is that the best use of HSR?  Local stops? 

I thought HSR was best suited for long(er) distances.  Like Tampa-Lakeland (36 miles) and Lakeland-Orlando (38 miles) I can understand, mostly.  Certainly Orlando-Daytona at ~54 miles.

But wouldn't the I.Drive-Disney-OIA stretch be better suited by regular rail?

Doc, you are correct that VERY SHORT stage lengths are a disaster waiting to happen with our HSR. It is more suited to the 100-500 mile segments then the 10, 11, or 20 mile segments in Central Florida. This article of WARNING is from the newest issue of the International Railway Journal:


OCKLAWAHA

One more reason (as if we needed more) why HSR will suck and fail in Central Fla.  Thanks Ock. :)

Assuming private companies risk their money in Florida's HSR plan, what's the chance that they modify it to create a more viable project?

Quote from: Doctor_K on January 17, 2011, 11:44:10 AM
So 10-11 miles from Disney to I-Drive, another 10-11 miles from I-Drive to OIA.

Is that the best use of HSR?  Local stops?  

I thought HSR was best suited for long(er) distances.  Like Tampa-Lakeland (36 miles) and Lakeland-Orlando (38 miles) I can understand, mostly.  Certainly Orlando-Daytona at ~54 miles.

But wouldn't the I.Drive-Disney-OIA stretch be better suited by regular rail?

the HSR plan includes running local and express trains....which dare I say is a good use of the track infrastructure.

So there will be trains that go directly from Tampa to Orlando, ones that also stop in Lakeland, ones that stop everywhere, and some that only go between Disney and OIA.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
I agree Faye....I was just suggesting that the report you cited doesn't "make the case".

Point well taken, as the report did leave out that visitor angle, and thus understated the positive recommendation for Florida High Speed rail.

This has created unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding and they should have just included that visitor angle even though it is difficult to quantify.

It would have been better if an underestimate of visitor trips was used, rather than leaving it out altogether.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 01:34:02 PM
the HSR plan includes running local and express trains....which dare I say is a good use of the track infrastructure.

So there will be trains that go directly from Tampa to Orlando, ones that also stop in Lakeland, ones that stop everywhere, and some that only go between Disney and OIA.

Ok I comprehend that theory, but what about...

Quote
Doc, you are correct that VERY SHORT stage lengths are a disaster waiting to happen with our HSR. It is more suited to the 100-500 mile segments then the 10, 11, or 20 mile segments in Central Florida.

Is there really such a thing as 'local HSR'?  Do the trains have the ability to achieve "HSR" velocity in a 10-mile stretch that has to include departing and approaching the termini stations?

The 84 mile long Tampa/Orlando is phase 1.  Once it's extended to Miami, it will be 324 miles in length.  I like the idea of using track infrastructure for local and express trains.  However, I think to be an ultimate success, it needs more stops to effectively serve local every day traffic.  The majority of people using this system won't be going from end point to end point.  In other words, this thing really needs to be more of a hybrid system that combines some elements of HSR with the local context and trip characteristics.  I wonder if private companies will suggest doing something of this nature in the long run, if asked to take on significant risks?

Well stated Lake, which brings us right back to the CSX alignment with improvements, expansions and alterations. It has also been the Achilles heal of AMTRAK in Florida - blowing right through many of the smaller cities that were once the bread and butter of rail services. Just as a city of 2 million people and an international airport that is easily in the WORLDS TOP 25 doesn't really depend on passenger rail as a city like Havre Montana where some of the highest ridership in the Amtrak system comes from. Likewise Amtrak shot themselves in the foot the day they took over back in 1971, not only eliminating 3/4Ths of all passenger train routes, and cutting the remaining skeleton to routes with single daily trains, they also wiped out places like Palatka and Green Cove Springs. Missing that core of little towns in the citrus belt is going to cost us EVEN if the train is build and meets its ridership goals. We the citizens will have the privileged of driving I-4 between Tampa and Orlando and waving to the tourists on a railroad not designed with Floridians in mind.

OCKLAWAHA

CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

can these international rail firms if they win the contract change the route and stations

Quote from: yapp1850 on January 17, 2011, 05:23:35 PM
can these international rail firms if they win the contract change the route and stations

potentially yes...but it would require going through the FTA environmental process again (which they won't do).....what they will likely do is choose the Lakeland station location (between Kathleen Rd and USF Poly)

I assume this has been posted somewhere?



http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-01-17/story/florida%E2%80%99s-jacksonville-miami-rail-plan-halfway-reality

(fixed your link - OCK)

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 03:54:27 PM
CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

REALLY?

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy the Balance of the CSX route with freight lease-back under an access agreement then it would be to build that dumb line down I-4. Actually as the above map shows, CSX is more in the grove then the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE is aware. That is FREIGHT AND PASSENGER routes they have applied for.

How interested would they be? In spite of the saber rattling and anti passenger rhetoric that comes out of the "Marble Palace," CSX had NO PROBLEM jumping into the Corridors of the Future Program Application.  The Southeast I-95 Corridor is all CSX.  Improvements will between Jacksonville and Washington, DC call for triple track and electrification. This has already be applied for by CSX Corporation, May 25, 2007, one of the many maps printed above. In the application they spell out that they fully expect a HUGE increase in passenger rail on the corridor, AMTRAK - SEHSR - FLORIDA REGIONAL - SE REGIONAL - COMMUTER RAIL - FLORIDA HSR, ALL OF THE ABOVE. Sure they have their ideas on separation and safety issues but all in all, its not only the corridor of the future, but we are the hinge pin.

THIS COW CROSSING BETTER BE DAMN WELL READY OR SAVANNAH OR SANFORD WILL TURN US INTO HAMBURGER!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 17, 2011, 10:52:52 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 03:54:27 PM
CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TTUMezUglTI/AAAAAAAAD78/bbJOEBfVFQo/s800/csx%20corridor.jpg)
This train will be hard to stop...Note the part of the line that seems to bypass Jacksonville, is in fact within our city limits and runs through Baldwin going north-south. The other line you see goes right into JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

REALLY?

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy the Balance of the CSX route with freight lease-back under an access agreement then it would be to build that dumb line down I-4. Actually as the above map shows, CSX is more in the grove then the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE is aware. That is FREIGHT AND PASSENGER routes they have applied for.

How interested would they be? In spite of the saber rattling and anti passenger rhetoric that comes out of the "Marble Palace," CSX had NO PROBLEM jumping into the Corridors of the Future Program Application.  The Southeast I-95 Corridor is all CSX.  Improvements will between Jacksonville and Washington, DC call for triple track and electrification. This has already be applied for by CSX Corporation, May 25, 2007, one of the many maps printed above. In the application they spell out that they fully expect a HUGE increase in passenger rail on the corridor, AMTRAK - SEHSR - FLORIDA REGIONAL - SE REGIONAL - COMMUTER RAIL - FLORIDA HSR, ALL OF THE ABOVE. Sure they have their ideas on separation and safety issues but all in all, its not only the corridor of the future, but we are the hinge pin.

THIS COW CROSSING BETTER BE DAMN WELL READY OR SAVANNAH OR SANFORD WILL TURN US INTO HAMBURGER!

OCKLAWAHA

very interesting

glad i've got my csx stock

Here you go...maybe CSX is open to discuss Tampa-Orlando

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/print-edition/2011/01/14/orlando-commuter-rail-could-spur-tampa.html

and now...another prominent lawmaker (Republican btw) is on-board

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/larry-hannan/2011-01-18/john-mica-supports-high-speed-rail-orlando-tampa

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 18, 2011, 11:29:34 AM
and now...another prominent lawmaker (Republican btw) is on-board

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/larry-hannan/2011-01-18/john-mica-supports-high-speed-rail-orlando-tampa

how bout jax to miami john?

Quote from: futurejax on January 18, 2011, 11:43:26 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 18, 2011, 11:29:34 AM
and now...another prominent lawmaker (Republican btw) is on-board

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/larry-hannan/2011-01-18/john-mica-supports-high-speed-rail-orlando-tampa

how bout jax to miami john?

Jax-Miami is not planned for HSR....it is handled by current Amtrak woutes as well as renewal of the Amtrak-FEC corridor service....I'm sure both were discussed heavily during today's Rail Commission meeting.

prices for the china high speed rail 2x-3x the regular price but but when high  speed rail comes on line they shut down the regular train, its open up freight on the regular line but no passenger rail.  avg chinese can't aford high speed rail prices they are chosing bus over high speed rail

In deciding federal subsidies for transportation modes we need to take into account the cost of externalities associated with each transportation mode.

Here we explain the concept of externalities associated with car travel:

QuoteThe transport sector is the primary contributor to a number of environmental externalities, such as greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and local air pollutionâ€"particularly in urban centersâ€"and traffic congestion. Globally the transport sector accounts for more than 60 percent of oil consumption and about one quarter of energy-related carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions (IEA 2006).1
In most urban centers around the world, road transportation is the largest source of local air pollutants such as carbon monoxide (CO), sulfur dioxide (SO2), oxides of nitrogen (NOx), volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and total suspended particulates (TSP). Vehicular emissions account for 40â€"80 percent of air quality problems in the megacities in developing countries (Ghose 2002). In rapidly urbanizing megacities, air pollution is a serious and alarming problem.2 Air pollution levels in these cities exceed the air quality standards set by the World Health Organization (WHO) by a factor of three or more. Air pollution is causing approximately 2 million premature deaths worldwide every year (WHO 2008). Globally about 3 percent of mortality from cardiopulmonary disease, about 5 percent of mortality from cancer of the trachea, bronchus, and lung, and about 1 percent of mortality from acute respiratory infections in children under five years old are caused by air pollution (Cohen and others 2005).

http://wbro.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/06/02/wbro.lkq005.full

QuoteNational Association of Railroad Passengers: www.narprail.org

   * 51%: Highway costs covered by user-fees
   * $34.5 BILLION: U.S. Treasury transfers to highway trust fund since 2008
   * 75% of Amtrak operating costs covered by revenue
   * 53% of commuter rail operating costs covered by revenues
   * 26% of bus operating costs generated by revenues
   * $78 BILLION: annual cost of highway congestion
   * $365 BILLION: annual cost of accidents and traffic delays on highway
   * 42,500: Americans killed every year on our highways
   * 2.5 MILLION: Americans injured ever year on our highways
   * 8.1: average yearly deaths on Amtrak and commuter rail over the past ten years
   * 4.2 BILLION: Gallons of oil saved each year through the use of public transportation
   * $9,000 in average yearly savings per person using public transit vs. driving
   * $1.33: Cost per Wisconsin resident each year for Madison Train
   * 20,000: U.S. jobs created for every $1 billion invested in rail

OCKLAWAHA