QuoteA destination for that high-speed rail money
by Meteor Blades
Wed Nov 10, 2010 at 06:00:03 AM PST
Governor-elect Scott Walker of Wisconsin doesn't want to build the high-speed rail line from Madison to Milwaukee that the federal government has granted his state $810 million for. Governor-elect John Kasich of Ohio doesn't want to spend the $400 million in federal grants his state is slated for a high-speed line connecting Columbus, Cincinnati and Cleveland. Governor-elect Rick Scott of Florida doesn't want to spend the $2.05 billion the feds have granted his state for high-speed rail between Tampa and Orlando. Add in the $3 billion in federal dollars for the Hudson River Tunnel that Gov. Chris Christie rejected and you've got a substantial pile of dough.
Not that these Republicans want to send the money back to Washington like the frugal deficit-choppers they'd like people to believe they are. They just want to spend it on "traditional" transportation projects, mostly highways. The U.S. Department of Transportation has told them no go, as greendem notes in the diary Obama Admin: Rail Money is for Rail, Use it or lose it.
So why not give that $6.2 billion to California and Illinois, states with Democratic governors who actually favor the idea of high-speed rail?
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/11/9/919117/-A-destination-for-that-high-speed-rail-money
This was all so predictable, regressives generally LOVE highways!!!
I think you'll be surprised Faye....I'm betting Rick Scott sticks with HSR and Gov. Walker will also change his mind in Wisconsin.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2010, 09:50:59 AM
I think you'll be surprised Faye....I'm betting Rick Scott sticks with HSR and Gov. Walker will also change his mind in Wisconsin.
You mean they are going to flip-flop?
What will people say about a Republican Governor who "mortgages our children's future", as they often like to refer to BIG GOVERNMENT SPENDING projects on anything other than DEFENSE?
Ah, I understand............if it's a Republican doing it it's ok, but if it's a Democrat doing it they are "Tax and Spend."
BTW, Rick Scott already lost a prime opportunity to show support for the federal HSR dollars for Florida:
QuoteFlorida high-speed rail could be in limbo with Rick Scott as Governor
Noah Pransky
1 day ago
ORLANDO, Florida - Delivering a passionate speech in front of hundreds of engineers, contractors, and business-owners, Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Florida) pleaded with Governor-Elect Rick Scott not to reject the $2 billion in federal stimulus dollars for high-speed rail.
"Our state desperately needs those funds," said Nelson, admitting he was nervous about Scott's Election Day victory.
Scott waged war on the federal stimulus plan, which has so far allocated tens of billions to Florida, including $2 billion for the 84-mile Orlando-to-Tampa connector.
"If we're going to remake transportation in Florida," Nelson said, "we need to move with this new, very visionary project and we don't want to be looking back in 20 years saying, 'We missed the ball.' "
Florida is expected to pay just 10 percent of the rail line's cost and it is expected to create tens of thousands of jobs. But Scott said here (around the 4:30 mark) that he would not support rail if Florida had to pay any of the bill.
The initial line is expected to be open in 2015 and a future line would connect Orlando to Miami.
Nelson was part of a large contingency of local and elected officials kicking off a two-day high-speed rail forum at the Orange County Convention Center.
Rep. Kathy Castor (D-Tampa), Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio, Lakeland Mayor Gow Fields, and State Sen. Paula Dockery (R-Lakeland) also spoke.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=155219
Tampa's high speed rail station renderings:
(http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/11/09/78926_highspeedrailtampa2jpg.jpg)
(http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/659/372/2010/11/09/78927_highspeedrailtampa3jpg.jpg)
Additional renderings of Tampa and Lakeland's stations here: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/FLHSR-Images
Just GORGEOUS!!!
Who in the world would oppose the US and Florida reaching for the cutting edge on HSR?!?!
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2010, 09:50:59 AM
I think you'll be surprised Faye....I'm betting Rick Scott sticks with HSR and Gov. Walker will also change his mind in Wisconsin.
I agree. Scott named Sen. Paula Dockery to his transition team. If she has a say in the matter, HSR will go through.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 10, 2010, 12:17:47 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2010, 09:50:59 AM
I think you'll be surprised Faye....I'm betting Rick Scott sticks with HSR and Gov. Walker will also change his mind in Wisconsin.
I agree. Scott named Sen. Paula Dockery to his transition team. If she has a say in the matter, HSR will go through.
Yeah, that IS a good sign. Just wonder how he's going to sell the idea to the ANTI BIG GOVERNMENT SPENDING Tea Party crowd that got him elected.........
But in order to come up with the promised 700,000 jobs in 7 years, he's going to have to accept federal monies, as well as NOT reduce state revenues ie Corporate Taxes and such.
OTOH voters rarely hold elected officials accountable.
Go Paula!!
Quote from: FayeforCure on November 10, 2010, 11:53:14 AM
Just GORGEOUS!!!
Who in the world would oppose the US and Florida reaching for the cutting edge on HSR?!?!
ANYBODY THAT WANT'S IT TO SUCCEED!
The plan is horrible in spite of the cute photos! ...and IT WILL FAIL BIG ENOUGH TO KILL HSR IN THE USA FOR DECADES! OCKLAWAHA
Rat Rail for Ratville! Typical for most engineering to start in the middle right? Oh but wait.....its going to go to Miami sooner or later......when it can be paid for with tax dollars again! This project is doomed from the start, I don't care what consulting firm says what! HSR is something that needs to be implemented......like right now, but not in Orlando!
ok CS...we get it...enough already!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 10, 2010, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: FayeforCure on November 10, 2010, 11:53:14 AM
Just GORGEOUS!!!
Who in the world would oppose the US and Florida reaching for the cutting edge on HSR?!?!
ANYBODY THAT WANT'S IT TO SUCCEED!
OCKLAWAHA
Hmm, European travelers that make up a high percentage of our tourism industry often fly into Tampa, and are used to taking Rail, so success has a really good foundation.
Besides it can be up and running much sooner than anywhere else in the US. Gorgeous showcase of what is possible all over the US!!!
GO FORWARD!With Floridian pride of a former Californian,
Faye
Dire warnings for Rail Supporters were issued as far back as Oct 5th., but no concerns were raised among the rail supporters on this forum............except for one: moi
OCTOBER 05, 2010
Is Florida's high-speed rail system DOA if Rick Scott becomes governor?QuoteOf course, Scott's apparent opposition to high-speed rail is not unique in this political season. As this New York Times story notes, in Wisconsin the Republican candidate for governor would kill the Milwaukee-to-Madison high-speed rail link, and Ohio's Republican candidate for governor would squash the proposed Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati line. Even in California, where outgoing Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger champions a high-speed rail line between Los Angeles and San Francisco, Republican gubernatorial candidate Meg Whitman says this is the wrong economic time for bullet trains.
The immediate impact of any scuttling of the Tampa-Orlando high-speed rail line means this: Florida most likely would have to return the $1.25 billion grant it has received for the rail line to the federal government, which could then award it to states that want it.
(REAL) Rail advocates who say the U.S. needs greater transportation options for the 21st century see GOP opposition as nothing but raw partisan politics, a way to destroy projects that, if successful, would stand as legacies to President Obama's stimulus plan, says this Associated Press story.
"I guess it makes sense for them politically, and it plays into the fantasy that highways pay for themselves," said Richard Harnish, executive director of the Midwest High Speed Rail Association, a Chicago-based nonprofit that promotes passenger rail.
As Metro Jacksonville says
"WAKE UP (REPUBLICAN VOTERS IN) FLORIDA!"http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/venturebiz/content/floridas-high-speed-rail-system-doa-if-rick-scott-becomes-governor
that is not true Faye...several people on here noted Rick Scott's rhetoric regarding rail!
Poppycock! We have been calling Rick Scott on rail since day one... Where were YOU Faye?
By the way folks, Tampa International handles about 30 million passengers per year. How many of those that fly in from the EU DO NOT have a package deal, either including a car or all transportation - ie: TOUR BUS? They are not going to fly to Florida because we suddenly have a pretty train on ONE ROUTE, no connection to AMTRAK, and no connection with any city besides Tampa. Nobody is flying to Tampa to get to the Orlando Airport, besides the HSR Doesn't go into Tampa International Airport! So are we to believe several million dummy's a year are jumping in cabs, to catch a pretty train, to catch a bus, to get to a Disney Hotel?
THE PLAN IS NOT REALISTIC, far too small, and missing the core of URBAN CENTRAL FLORIDA. Even when built out it will miss the core of everything but West Palm-Miami, and Tampa itself, and still only connect with AMTRAK in Miami. Call it cutting edge if you want to but a railroad on an island will soon fail. Push it THROUGH Orlando to SANFORD and it may work, bend it south roughly along the CSX through Haines City etc.. and it will do better... All I'm saying is this doesn't have to be so damn hard regardless of the amount of "FREE MONEY" or "JOBS" we get, we must do this thing right or the blow to rail will be felt from Seattle to Sebring.
Florida has done NOTHING but discourage rail and rail travel for 60 years or basically two generations, we're not going to throw a magic rail on the ground and reverse this. There is NO FREE RIDE, and if we want it we need to work our way into it. The CURRENT OPERATING CALIFORNIA MODEL IS OPTIMUM and their HSR plan is better connected. Hell if they did it like Florida, they'd be building a HSR line from the Palmdale Airport to Lake Tahoe via the Owens Valley, because some people that fly to Reno might want to ride a train to DISNEY.
Charging off a cliff is completely Skywayesq.
OCKLAWAHA
I was on the Ocklawaha today and discovered the state has misspelled the name on SR-19 as well as CR-316!
The folks in Indiana are having the same fight that Tampa had 10 years ago (and almost again thsi year)
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101110/NEWS18/11100332/-1/7daysarchives/Reluctant-lawmakers-may-hold-back-regional-transit-plan
Same old shit - different day eh TU? Now it looks like the Republican's are taking a page from Boy Bush's playbook and will just void the will of the people, hell it's better then that, let's just not let them vote on it at all! So if big brother decides to think for us, I wonder when we can start wearing the red arm bands or red checkered aprons?
Maybe there is more to this RED STATES thing then we at first noticed comrade.
"Khmer Kenley" sort of has a ring to it...
OCKLAWAHA
We need Republicans to run for office who support transit! it shouldnt have to be a partisan issue!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 11, 2010, 07:24:42 PM
Poppycock! We have been calling Rick Scott on rail since day one... Where were YOU Faye?
or "JOBS" we get, we must do this thing right or the blow to rail will be felt from Seattle to Sebring.
OCKLAWAHA
Face it Ock, the MO on this forum is denounce elected officials AFTER they have been elected.
A far more effective way to support your cause is to denounce their positions PUBLICLY, way BEFORE they are elected!
You all seem to think you can sweet talk them into changing their minds when their minds are already set in stone.
Far easier to START OFF with someone who already supports RAIL for FLORIDA!
CAST YOUR VOTES ACCORDINGLY!!
It is foolish to expect people to change their minds after they have been elected. How's that been working for you in Jax in the past few years?
You should get out more. You will find out that we do a lot more than hide behind computer screens.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2010, 10:16:28 AM
You should get out more. You will find out that we do a lot more than hide behind computer screens.
Again.......how's the changing of minds working for you AFTER anti-rail officials have been elected?
whether or not you do it behind computer screens, face to face, by e-mail or by tel, I don't care
How is the changing of minds working for you? Isn't it a lot easier to just elect PRO-RAIL folks?
Quote from: FayeforCure on November 16, 2010, 10:19:50 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2010, 10:16:28 AM
You should get out more. You will find out that we do a lot more than hide behind computer screens.
Again.......how's the changing of minds working for you AFTER anti-rail officials have been elected?
whether or not you do it behind computer screens, face to face, by e-mail or by tel, I don't care
How is the changing of minds working for you? Isn't it a lot easier to just elect PRO-RAIL folks?
Again you should get out more. Come out and visit us on one of these Tuesday nights. We can fill you in on what's been going on behind the scenes this past year.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
Quote from: FayeforCure on November 16, 2010, 10:19:50 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2010, 10:16:28 AM
You should get out more. You will find out that we do a lot more than hide behind computer screens.
Again.......how's the changing of minds working for you AFTER anti-rail officials have been elected?
whether or not you do it behind computer screens, face to face, by e-mail or by tel, I don't care
How is the changing of minds working for you? Isn't it a lot easier to just elect PRO-RAIL folks?
Again you should get out more. Come out and visit us on one of these Tuesday nights. We can fill you in on what's been going on behind the scenes this past year.
Ah, I guess it's not for public consumption because let me guess............Republicans have to secretly support Big Government spending projects like RAIL.
Anyway, this is by no means an affront to your advocacy for Rail. I'm simply suggesting a more effective alternative means.
After all, if your group or YOU yourself had publicly denounced Rick Scott's position on rail in an Op/Ed in the TU, there might have been more votes for Sink in Jax.
multiply that by 8 other cities where Pro-Rail citizen advocates did the same, and you could have helped a Pro-Rail governor be elected in FL.
I voted for Charlie Crist for US Senate because he was Pro-Rail, and of course Sink too for Governor.
Our fight is more of a local one. However, you were free to write an article stating your position and asking us to put it on the front page. Since day one we've encouraged guest articles, so any time you have something you feel is important to get out to our readers, please submit it to us. As for Florida's HSR, Scott's got Dockery on his transition team. I highly doubt she's going to let it die, even if it really needs to be significantly modified to ultimately be successful.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2010, 11:02:34 AM
Our fight is more of a local one. However, you were free to write an article stating your position and asking us to put it on the front page. Since day one we've encouraged guest articles, so any time you have something you feel is important to get out to our readers, please submit it to us. As for Florida's HSR, Scott's got Dockery on his transition team. I highly doubt she's going to let it die, even if it really needs to be significantly modified to ultimately be successful.
I would consider writing a guest article next time for metrojacksonville, but believe that an Op/Ed written by yourself in the TU would have been far more effective, while my voice on stem cell research is more effective than yours ( my 20 year old son is quadriplegic from a soccer collision that took place at age 7 in Osceola county) and I have indeed written Op/Eds on stem cell research over the past 10 years.
Just like Sinks tv ads of Republican officials who supported her was most effective, you could have lend a Pro-Rail candidate your help too, by denouncing an anti-rail stance by her opponent
prior to the election.
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 11:15:04 AM
Faye you have your tactics, and we have ours.
At the end of the day, this isnt an organization dedicated to getting Democrats elected, nor are we party affiliates. This is an issues site, and good ideas or policy have no political affiliation.
Stephen, I completely agree with your premise. That's why I would have considered Republican Paula Dockery for Governor or Senate. But generally speaking you'll find Rail supporters and liveable city supporters among the Democrats. So it is disingenuous to make out political parties don't matter.
Issue voters have long been part and parcel of getting things done.
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 11:15:04 AM
We invited Alex to speak to North Florida, and she didnt deem this area of the state to be worthy of her resources. As a result, she lost.
while I don't agree with Faye's presumptions, this one is also off base. Alex Sink spent lots of time and money here in jacksonville. As a result, she only lost Duval County 52 to 48 (similar to Obama).
I would argue that Duval wasn't a main reason she lost...after all, Obama lost here but still won the state.
I think the glaring problems for Sink were that she didn't win Palm Beach or Dade by enough...and that she barely won Hillsborough (her home county).
I think Miss Sink believed that Mr. Scott's 75 admissions that if he told the truth he could be convicted of crimes would negatively affect his campaign. Boy we voters sure are smart.
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 16, 2010, 01:18:20 PM
I would argue that Duval wasn't a main reason she lost...after all, Obama lost here but still won the state.
I think the glaring problems for Sink were that she didn't win Palm Beach or Dade by enough...and that she barely won Hillsborough (her home county).
Having zero name recognition in a city as diverse as Jacksonville with as many swing voters as we have, was a collossal mistake. Several of us from MJ spoke with their statewide organization. They wrote the area off early as a republican hotbed. While you are active with the local dems, I think, the decision was a state level decision, and the local dems lack the leadership to act on their own.
So zero name recognition gets you 48% of the vote? And don't tell me that all Dems pull that here because Meek didn't come close (and he spent quite a bit of time in jax)....btw, Clay, Nassau, and St. Johns are Republican hotbeds...Sink could always get some voters, but she had no chance to win those counties.
FYI...I am not active with the local democratic party
Quote(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TMTj8Mt850I/AAAAAAAADBE/ST-j_Es1xPc/s800/AMTRAK%20NO%20Rick%20Scott.jpg)
Looks to me like the AGENDA is out of the closet!
Originally posted by Ocklawaha, OCT 25, 2010.Quote from: FayeforCure on November 16, 2010, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 11, 2010, 07:24:42 PM
Poppycock! We have been calling Rick Scott on rail since day one... Where were YOU Faye?
or "JOBS" we get, we must do this thing right or the blow to rail will be felt from Seattle to Sebring.
OCKLAWAHA
Face it Ock, the MO on this forum is denounce elected officials AFTER they have been elected.
A far more effective way to support your cause is to denounce their positions PUBLICLY, way BEFORE they are elected!
You all seem to think you can sweet talk them into changing their minds when their minds are already set in stone.
Far easier to START OFF with someone who already supports RAIL for FLORIDA!
CAST YOUR VOTES ACCORDINGLY!!
It is foolish to expect people to change their minds after they have been elected. How's that been working for you in Jax in the past few years?
DING! DING! DING! WENT THE TROLLEY... Faye, again it's another of your open mouth - insert foot, post's of infamy. QuotePost by: Ocklawaha on OCT 25, 2010, 01:52:59
Rick Scott
Mike Hogan
The end of the WORLD, DEC 21, 2012
I'm starting to think the Mayans had it right...
I don't know where YOU were Faye, but I was busting my ass for Sink, and I'd dare say that September 2 (my first rant), was a wee bit BEFORE THE ELECTION! Further I went on to thumbnail the entire Republican platform IMO, perhaps you should read it yourself before answering this post.
OCKLAWAHA
Looks like both STEPHENDARE and MYSELF took a shot at the "guy we didn't protest," back on SEPT 2. QuoteTitle: Re: Jennifer Carroll Scott's running mate
Post by: stephendare on September 02, 2010, 15:53:10
no respect for someone who runs with a criminal of Scotts scale.
hello......billion dollar judgement for fraud, anyone?
QuoteTitle: Re: Jennifer Carroll Scott's running mate
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2010, 16:14:27
(http://www.blu-raystats.com/img_cvr/RidewiththeDevil_715515055017_500.jpg)
"Frankly mam, great grandpa would have made short work of both of these carpet baggers."
OCKLAWAHA
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Cartoons%20and%20Fun%20Stuff/FreeDixieQuantrell.jpg)
"True son of a son of a son, of the black flag..."
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 04:50:59 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 16, 2010, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 16, 2010, 01:18:20 PM
I would argue that Duval wasn't a main reason she lost...after all, Obama lost here but still won the state.
I think the glaring problems for Sink were that she didn't win Palm Beach or Dade by enough...and that she barely won Hillsborough (her home county).
Having zero name recognition in a city as diverse as Jacksonville with as many swing voters as we have, was a collossal mistake. Several of us from MJ spoke with their statewide organization. They wrote the area off early as a republican hotbed. While you are active with the local dems, I think, the decision was a state level decision, and the local dems lack the leadership to act on their own.
So zero name recognition gets you 48% of the vote? And don't tell me that all Dems pull that here because Meek didn't come close (and he spent quite a bit of time in jax)....btw, Clay, Nassau, and St. Johns are Republican hotbeds...Sink could always get some voters, but she had no chance to win those counties.
FYI...I am not active with the local democratic party
It sure does, if your opponent is Rick Scott.
Stephen, can you give some examples where statewide Democrats WON Duval County? I haven't researched it, but I would guess they are far and few between in this century.
Bill Nelson over Katherine Harris, perhaps?
When you are running against a Daddy Warbucks like Rick Scott, and in a large state, you have to pick your battles and battlegrounds carefully. Everything I read post-election states that Sink underperformed in South Florida.
If Sink matched Obama's vote percentage, given the African-American vote in Duval, she probably hit the highwater mark.
Quote from: vicupstate on November 16, 2010, 05:55:26 PM
When you are running against a Daddy Warbucks like Rick Scott, and in a large state, you have to pick your battles and battlegrounds carefully. Everything I read post-election states that Sink underperformed in South Florida.
If Sink matched Obama's vote percentage, given the African-American vote in Duval, she probably hit the highwater mark.
Seems to me that ANY statewide office has to consider two things over and above party to get elected, geography and population clusters.
1. Miami - Ft. Lauderdale - Pompano - West Palm Beach 7th largest MSA in America
2. Tampa - St. Petersburg - Clearwater 19th largest MSA
3. Orlando - Kissimmee - Sanford 27th largest MSA
4. Jacksonville 40th largest MSA
5. Northport - Bradenton - Sarasota 75th largest MSA
6. Cape Coral - Ft. Myers 86th largest MSA
7. Lakeland - Winter Haven 87th largest MSA
8. Palm Bay - Melbourne - Titusville 97th largest MSA
9. Deltona - Daytona - Ormond 103rd largest MSA
10.Pensacola - Ferry Pass - Brent 109th largest MSA
11.Port St. Lucie 126th largest MSA
12. Tallahassee 140th largest MSA
Aside from the isolated geography of a couple of smaller cities, Panama City, Key West, Ocala, Gainesville
one could narrow it down to about 16 major population or geographic centers. Cover these over the period of a year, and focus on 5-7 top population centers + Pensacola - Ocala - Tallahassee in a final wrap and you'd blow the state away. In a state like Ohio or Georgia, a cities like Pensacola - Ocala - Tallahassee could be largely ignored, but in a state like Florida, where it is farther from Key West to Pensacola then it is from New York City to Chicago, one cannot afford to alienate the far flung corners.
IMO, the Democrats, both party and registered card holders, absolutely blew this, a classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
Vic,
What you missed from being here on the ground was the anti Rick Scott sentiment. Be willing to bet that a good number of those Sink Votes were republicans and independents.
Sink lost the state by 1%...Democratic candidates for Governor in Florida have lost by 10+ points in 1998, 2002, and 2006....given the Republican wave nationally, the only reason Sink got so close was because of the anti-Scott sentiment.
That said, exit polls show Scott did quite well with independents.
If anti-Rick Scott sentiment is how Sink kept it so close, and I agree it was a key factor, then what difference would it have made if she had campaigned locally?
She was the alternative to an unacceptable choice (Scott), for those folks. So she already had those votes.
Without the GOP wave, Sink would have won easily, but that wasn't the case. Anti-Obama/Anti-Democratic party wave was a close match for the Anti-Scott wave.
In a GOP wave, there was no way to carry Duval. Taking 48% was a victory in itself.
The D base in South Florida didn't turnout or didn't vote for her in the normal numbers, or both.
Sink ran close enough to have a clear shot in four years for the nomination if she wants it. If Scott is as bad as he has the potential to be, he will be vulnerable.
you should go back and check how many campaign stops she made in Jax. from August to Election Day
Like I said Stephen, you have to nail the population centers and the geographic corners and she failed to do it.
OCKLAWAHA
It is hard to blame anyone but the voters. Rick Scott told us he is a crook 75 times. Let me paraphrase
Mr. Scott did you steal money from senior citizens who were trying to get needed health care?
Come on you know if I answer that I will be put in jail for stealing from peoples grandparents.
Full disclaimer: Fieldafm=registered Republican who voted for Alex Sink
Metro Jacksonville must be doing something right in its rail advocacy(full disclosure, Im a rail convert b/c of discussions with people on and in connection with this site)
Picked up in today's Business Journal:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/trade_trucks_trains/2010/11/high-speed-rail-from-jax-to-miami.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/trade_trucks_trains/2010/11/high-speed-rail-from-jax-to-miami.html)
Democrats do not vote in midterm elections at the level as they do in presidential ones. Proven fact across the country.
GOP had stellar turnout and Dems had normal midterm turnout. In a GOP state that is all it takes to come up short. Look where the GOP did well -- the South and Midwest, and where they didn't - California, the Northeast and Washington state. Red versus Blue. In Blue areas, there was a margin for dropoff, in the Red areas, there was none.
There were more 'stay at home' or low-incentive Democrats in South Florida than Duval County, many times over. Resources, particularly a candidate's time, are VERY limited. This is Florida not Vermont. Any additional time spent in Duval County would have been time NOT spent some other area of the state, nearly all of which would have MORE D/Ind. voters.
Just because Sink didn't accept your invitation to whatever event, does not mean that cost her the race.
Just becaause Sink did not treat you as
Stephen had it right. There was a large crossover of republicans for Sink. I do not blame the Sink campaign. Democrat voters failed to show up. I guess they couldnt spare 15 minutes it would have taken in the two weeks of early voting available to them. Fayes laying blame at the feet of the Tea Party and Republicans for Gov. Scotts policies is off base. Scott is in office because of Democrat voters... NOT Republican.
Most republicans i know are completely against most things that are modern and forward thinking. I don't really see that changing any time soon. If it were up to them we'd all be driving Hummers or some other big truck. I find the republican party and it's people to be devolved and the main reason the country is so backwards and the laughing butt of jokes around the developed world as we know it..so. the republican op pinion is something is take very lightly and with understanding that what they say is usually a lie.
I say go go fast rail. When is Europe riding the rails if felt like i was embarrassed to be an American..we are so behind....and I'll blame the republicans and their backward thinking...thanks guys.
Quote from: Garden guy on November 17, 2010, 07:35:03 AM
Most republicans i know are completely against most things that are modern and forward thinking. I don't really see that changing any time soon. If it were up to them we'd all be driving Hummers or some other big truck. I find the republican party and it's people to be devolved and the main reason the country is so backwards and the laughing butt of jokes around the developed world as we know it..so. the republican op pinion is something is take very lightly and with understanding that what they say is usually a lie.
I say go go fast rail. When is Europe riding the rails if felt like i was embarrassed to be an American..we are so behind....and I'll blame the republicans and their backward thinking...thanks guys.
That's really the gist of what I am saying. The Tea Party and Republicans are the ones that voted FOR Rick Scott, the crook........though I too am disappointed at low Dem turn-outs in So. FL (as BrigeTroll points out)
The Regressive wave also reduced the number of women in congress from an already abysmal 17% to 16%, which are supposed to represent the 51% women in our population.
Florida missed her chance to elect its first female governor. For shame.
More regressive shame here:
QuoteA bill to enact the Paycheck Fairness Act passed more than a year ago by the House of Representatives was blocked yet again on Wednesday by 41 filibustering Senators, all Republicans. In a statement, President Obama called the vote “deeply disappointing,†and the AAUW is equally miffed. You can bet there will be no chance of it passing in the new Congress that takes power in January.
For those of you who don't know the AAUW stands for the American Association of University Women.
Can someone call JSO?
I would like to report a thread that has been hijacked.
Faye is nothing if she's not consistent, her attacks on the Republican's and Mica in particular have shown up in exactly 1,146 posts which range from stem-cell research, to Red Fish, to flying trains. Go ahead and make that call to JSO because they might be the only force that can stop her!
OCKLAWAHA
Yay for Progressive California!
Quote
Sanchez Urges Feds to Ship Surplus Rail Funds to California
Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:15 pm | Updated: 9:51 am, Fri Nov 19, 2010.
0 comments
Rep. Loretta Sanchez on Thursday joined Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Democratic Sens. Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein in urging the federal government to send California's high-speed rail system any money that other states reject for construction of their own train projects.
The proposed system, to run from Anaheim to San Francisco at a cost of $43 billion, has been plagued by financial accountability and ethics issues.
But in a letter that also was signed by four other California members of Congress, Sanchez told Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and Federal Railroad Administrator Joseph Szabo that California is "ready and eager to implement a high-speed rail system."
http://voiceofoc.org/blogs/article_e569d0c2-f393-11df-95b4-001cc4c002e0.html
Clearly the best place to send federal money...
QuoteThe proposed system, to run from Anaheim to San Francisco at a cost of $43 billion, has been plagued by financial accountability and ethics issues.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 20, 2010, 07:36:37 AM
Clearly the best place to send federal money...
QuoteThe proposed system, to run from Anaheim to San Francisco at a cost of $43 billion, has been plagued by financial accountability and ethics issues.
I wonder how Florida is doing on those financial accountability and ethics issues. Hmmmmm, Florida just elected a new leader, governor elect Rick Scott, a master at creating financial eccountability and ethics issues!!!
And yet somehow that's everyone else's fault but your own?
The California plan actually goes where people live which makes it far superior to anything Florida has come up with yet.
The Florida plan wouldn't work if we got the entire $8 Billion and Rick Scott was the biggest rail supporter in the country. Any high speed train, here, France, Japan, China, ANYWHERE, that can be shorthauled by a 67' VW Microbus on Alligator Alley is going to fail. Florida has ignored where people LIVE-WORK-PLAY and the traditional surface travel patterns in favor of a railroad designed like a hub and spokes airline.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2010, 11:08:10 AM
The California plan actually goes where people live which makes it far superior to anything Florida has come up with yet.
really...have you looked at some of the proposed routes?
for example, the people in Palo Alto have been clear that they want the train to go around, not through, their city.
tufsu..........your splitting hairs! Rat Rail does nothing but feed Ratville! They can afford to fund their own operation if they truely wished to do so.......right? What about the rest of Florida............Jacksonville has rail, major rail spines, in three different directions and we don't do squat with it! HSR as proposed does nothing for the rest of the state or tieing the whole of Flordia in a system that all could use. I know I am flogging a dead mule but I had to say this! Screw Miami, what about our world?
CS....you're being a bit ridiculous...the first leg of HSR in Flroida connects Tampa to the Orlando airport...with intermediate stops in Lakeland, at Disney, and the I-Drive/Convention Center area....at a cost of about $2.5 Billion
Given that we rely on sales tax and corporate tax for statewide funding, it is entirely reasonable for Disney to get a stop.
Furthermore, additional legs to Miami and Jacksonville are planned.
On the other hand, California's HSR plan will cost close to $50 Billion....so yes, it should connect more cities!
Every station on the California line from Sacramento to Los Angeles, was on the route in 1879... In fact the renderings show the HSR right alongside the BNSF and Union Pacific trains.
California does NOT plan on building new San Francisco, Los Angeles, Sacramento or several other stations, on the railroad and using the railroad stations already in place with some improvements. These new tracks are to lay right alongside the freight railroad tracks for nearly the entire distance.
...AND your talking about one station at Palo Alto that wants to stay out of the system? WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY and have cities willing to stand down.
Florida's HSR takes 50 minutes to cover from Orlando to Tampa and conventional rail COULD do the same thing in 80 minutes. The Miami trip from the traditional rail route to the new 180 mph plan? 15 minutes difference with a conventional train moving at 75 mph. The conventional train route via Tampa-Bartow-West Lake Wales-West Palm Beach-Miami is 258 miles and our new super train? Tampa-Orlando-Miami is 324 miles of very bad planning.
Really TU... DUMB PLAN, that misses the intermediate population, and won't serve the Metro Orlando citizens unless they take it alongside CSX through to Sanford... and they apparently are not smart enough for that. We're landing our flying train at the airport.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2010, 07:53:17 PM
Furthermore, additional legs to Miami and Jacksonville are planned.
On the other hand, California's HSR plan will cost close to $50 Billion....so yes, it should connect more cities!
More defending the indefensible? California is as long as the Eastern United States so yeah, it SHOULD cost more, it's bigger, has more people, more cities, and already has a railroad fabric among it's citizens...we don't.
Also a bit disingenious wouldn't you say TU? You and I both know there is NO PLAN to connect Jacksonville to Orlando-OR-Tampa-OR-Miami in the manner they are proposing for those glitz and glitter cities. We're to get a slightly faster Amtrak train and their calling that a Jacksonville HSR connection. None of us will be alive to see this stupid system reach JACKSONVILLE as it will fail in the first phase, and probably collapse somewhere in the tree cutting stage of phase two. OCKLAWAHA
not true Ock...the HSR ballot question from 2000 required connecting the 5 largest metro areas....Florida decided that could be handled at first by connecting Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami....however, since then the state's plan has been updated to include an HSR connection from Orlando to Jacksonville....that is step 3 in the plan
ock so you have never seen train b on csx track ave speed will be 60m, 90 min tampa to orlando, tampa to miami 4 hrs because of freight traffic, too many curves and csx will not allow any trains under 50ft from there tracks more than 90mp
true high speed raill tampa to miami stop all station 3.15, expreess train 1.5-2.0 hrs
Quote from: yapp1850 on November 25, 2010, 11:40:00 AM
ock so you have never seen train b on csx track ave speed will be 60m, 90 min tampa to orlando, tampa to miami 4 hrs because of freight traffic, too many curves and csx will not allow any trains under 50ft from there tracks more than 90mp
Don't need to yapp, Ock is a railroad planner and I'm telling y'all there is no way in hell this thing is going to hit anywhere near the ridership, sprawl stopping, or end to end speeds that they claim. When I could take a 1950's steam engine over an upgraded existing route from Tampa to Miami at 70mph and come into Miami 15 minutes off the 186 mph flash then there is SOMETHING wrong with their route planning. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 25, 2010, 08:02:52 AM
not true Ock...the HSR ballot question from 2000 required connecting the 5 largest metro areas....Florida decided that could be handled at first by connecting Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami....however, since then the state's plan has been updated to include an HSR connection from Orlando to Jacksonville....that is step 3 in the plan
Not true TU... REALLY? We all know what Jacksonville has gotten is a bone tossed to the dog. The FEC RY HSR application called for only 90mph with conventional equipment (AMTRAK) and it won't even get above 79 until it is south of Melbourne. Fat chance we'll ever see a true HSR route running up the St. Johns valley to Jacksonville because they'll claim there isn't enough density...so again..."better Amtrak" and all of it labeled HSR because the Federal Government has decided 90 mph is HSR... even if it's only for a mile or two.
Tallahassee's love for Jacksonville is further shown by the newly reinstated SUNSET LIMITED/GULF WIND ROUTE and our SILVER STAR train direct to Ocala-Wildwood-Lakeland-Tampa. Tallahassee speaks with forked tongue. OCKLAWAHA
ock why do you like tampa union station better than the high speed station. tampa union station is not downtown high speed is, union station has no public tranit, high speed will. union station will have a brt station to get you the high speed station
ock all the laocal rail for tampa will be light rail to to high speed rail station, commuter rail will go to union staion, i predit will have both high speed and low speed amtrak, something like what is in boston now south station, north staion
hey witch train rout and stations and why
1 csx rout tampa union , down down lakeland, kissimmee, downtown orlando
2 i-4 down town tampa, kathleen/usf, disney,occ,orlando airport
3 tampa high speed station, kathleen rd , disney, downtown orlando at 528/csx we could get into downtown orlando, they not muck room on i-4 to do it.
Quote from: yapp1850 on November 25, 2010, 12:56:25 PM
ock why do you like tampa union station better than the high speed station. tampa union station is not downtown high speed is, union station has no public tranit, high speed will. union station will have a brt station to get you the high speed station
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TOhrnRFig2I/AAAAAAAADEM/Kcjmn1m-TA0/s800/Pebble%20Phosphate%20Dist%20Map.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/v/0wQKfARVFKI?fs=1&hl=en_US
All of this space, designed for easy rail access to everywhere going to waste... OR going to commuter trains with a cross town bus connection to HSR, pretty damn dumb if you ask me...Because all RAIL-roads in the Bay area lead to Union Station and HSR will not work if it is separated from a connective system. Both locations are not exactly downtown, and perhaps the HSR station is closer by a bit but as you said BRT between Tampa Union Station and Downtown, as well as future commuter train and Amtrak connections + LRT. Union is designed to handle the crowds, already built, part of our heritage, once had 9 tracks plus express area, more then enough room to add Greyhound, Red Bus, Trailways etc... On the one hand we have a nearly turnkey opportunity, and on the other we start from scratch, to me that's simple economics. OCKLAWAHA
main reason why i like high speed station over union statios is hart main bus station is across the street, but no connection at union station
(http://www.transportation.ucla.edu/portal/images/side/img-side-amtrack-0309-2.jpg)
(http://www.railpac.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/noel-17.jpg)
Tampa Union Station has ONE PLATFORM and two active tracks in the station, where just a few years ago it had 9 station tracks, 2 that passed by into Port Tampa, and a few more over in the express areas. Those spaces are largely vacant today, have you ever seen a station such as Bakersfield California where cross-platform from Bus to Rail is available? New Orleans has it too. (...and so will Jacksonville if MJ gets it's way at JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL and the Skyway connection to the FEC Southside commuter rail line station at Atlantic Ave.) It doesn't take much to imagine how all of that space could be configured to accommodate intercity bus, BRT, LRT, city transit, AMTRAK, commuter rail AND HSR. OCKLAWAHA
csx said the line is Not Available for lease and buy line between east tampa and downtown, track have to be 50ft from csx track or 25 with a barrer wall, hart is talking about useing csx bus it will have go on palm ave to high speed station, no union station
All of the CSX lines are available for purchase east of the railyards that sit just east of Ybor off of SR 60. In fact, Tampa's LRT plans call for using these exact lines to tie in DT Tampa with the USF. So it appears that if TBARTA is successful at implementing LRT one day, the line will naturally connect to Union Station. However, to get to the proposed HSR station, a new line using a north/south downtown street will have to be extended from the present rail ROW.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TO83x9BPsgI/AAAAAAAADF4/9BlSxnR30AU/s800/HSR%20disaster%20Loop.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TO803x9oy0I/AAAAAAAADFY/bljyl6ZOuSQ/s800/SAL_crossFL_highlighted.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TO85kNWeNjI/AAAAAAAADGA/KK_iAQRBT3w/s800/Tampa%20Northern.jpg)
Just a few more critique's which don't even need words.
OCKLAWAHA
because as Lake has said all along...it isn't about the end to end service...it is about the points in between....there is very little interest in going to places like Mulberry, Frostproof, and Avon Park...and what about the folks who might go between West Palm and Orlando?
also, as has been noted, CSX is not interested in selling this line....that's because it is a heavily used freight connection to the Port of Tampa, especially for phosphate.
I know Florida is hooked on HSR but an intercity corridor service through a partnership with Amtrak could be achieved without purchasing ROW from CSX.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2010, 09:59:21 PM
I know Florida is hooked on HSR but an intercity corridor service through a partnership with Amtrak could be achieved without purchasing ROW from CSX.
maybe...just depends on how many trains are run each day and what, if any, impacts there would be to CSX's service
If I recall, the entire line has pretty wide ROW, so additional track could be installed if desired. In the end, considering the cost of HSR down the middle of I-4, Rick Scott's tea party friends and Amtrak's high interest in forming a partnership for such a service, it may be worth a look.
TU, those schedules are simply to demonstrate that not only can we do this with conventional equipment, WE DID IT IN 1936! Nobody is saying we'd stop in Alturas, or burn 30 minutes on a 12 mile stretch from Bartow to West Lake Wales. On the flip side though it's just as much about a single LAKE WALES-AVON PARK-SEBRING (area) station as it is about a "USF" or "Polk County" station. What about Orlando? No sweat, there are options to use conventional rail between there and Tampa, and the Miami HSR was even considered alongside the CSX via Auburndale and West Lake Wales, so why not? If your thinking a huge crowd is waiting to get to the coast someone tell me, having lived in Orlando for years, which coastal city... Some go to DAYTONA, some to NEW SMYRNA, others to TITUSVILLE and some to COCOA or maybe MELBOURNE, but guess what you can't build to all of them and one line is only going to serve ONE OF THEM.
If you REALLY want to make a difference in Central Florida and give them a system that will last forever, producing jobs and industrial growth, then you build from the FEC mainline across the Banana River and Mosquito Lagoon to Port Canaveral where they've begged for a rail connection for years.
Again, it appears that we are ready to be apologists for bad decision making rather then detectives of fact. CSX would sell their mothers if it would get them better track or operating conditions and frankly that applies to HSR-LRT or just RofW... Amtrak and the State can also play nasty and force the issue so that in the end CSX really has no choice but to play ball. Nobody wants that sort of relationship but even that would be superior to what we're supposedly getting.
OCKLAWAHA
tgv in paris does not stop in city center but at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport to disney land train station at disney land staion is at the front door, or take the local train to city center station and tranfer to disney land station 100m from disney land
there is a tgv staion in paris besides airport but it in not in the city center
to get to london Eurostar in city center
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2010, 11:20:24 PM
TU, those schedules are simply to demonstrate that not only can we do this with conventional equipment, WE DID IT IN 1936!
are you also implying that freight rail traffic is the same in 2010 as it was in 1936?
I thought you might have figured this out in "Sandbox 101"... OF COURSE NOT, but consider counting tracks on a 100' right-of-way some for freight capacity improvements, and some for HrSR. Pretty elementary my man.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: yapp1850 on November 27, 2010, 08:43:46 PM
tgv in paris does not stop in city center but at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport to disney land train station at disney land staion is at the front door, or take the local train to city center station and tranfer to disney land station 100m from disney land
Correct they do NOT leave from a downtown station, they leave from 3 of them:
Gare Du Nord
Gare Montparnasse
Gare de Lyon
PLUS
Charles de Gaulle Airport : It is possible to get to any TGV city from the airport station, AS WELL AS 3 OF THE 5 DOWNTOWN STATIONS.
http://www.bonjourlafrance.com/france-trains/tgv-paris/schedules/tgv-paris.htm#DESTINATION OCKLAWAHAQuoteFor ALL details...
1. Click here for text links for ALL TGV Cities from Downtown Paris (Alphabetical order)
2. Click here for map links to ALL TGV Cities from Downtown Paris
3. Click here for text links for the TGV routes from Downtown Paris to the French Regions
TGV number 6601 6641 6603 6681 6643 6605 6645 6607 6609 6611 6613 6615 6685 6617 6619 6657 TGV number 6621 6659 6623 6663 6687 6627 6665 6629 6689 6669 6631 6671 6633 6673 6635
Correspondence by Coach Coach . . . Coach . . . . . . Coach Coach . . . NB Coach . . . . Coach . . . . Coach . . . .
Amenities Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Amenities Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar Bar
PARIS-GARE-DE-LYON Departure 6.00 6.30 7.00 7.00 7.30 8.00 8.30 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 14.00 15.00 15.30 PARIS-GARE-DE-LYON Departure 16.00 16.30 17.00 17.30 17.30 18.00 18.30 19.00 19.00 19.30 20.00 20.30 21.00 21.30 22.00
Le Creusot-TGV Arrival 7.22 . . . 8.49 . . . . . . 14.18 14.18 . . . Le Creusot-TGV Arrival 17.20 . . . . 19.19 . . . . 21.19 . . . .
Macon-TGV Arrival . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Macon-TGV Arrival . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
LYON-PART-DIEU Arrival 8.04 8.25 8.54 8.54 9.31 9.55 10.25 10.55 11.55 12.55 13.55 15.01 15.01 15.55 16.55 17.25 LYON-PART-DIEU Arrival 18.01 18.26 18.55 19.25 19.25 20.01 20.25 20.57 20.57 21.25 22.01 22.25 22.55 23.31 23.59
Lyon-Perrache Arrival 8.15 8.36 9.10 . 9.42 10.06 10.36 11.06 12.06 13.06 14.06 15.16 . 16.06 17.06 17.36 Lyon-Perrache Arrival 18.13 18.37 19.08 19.41 . 20.12 20.38 21.15 . 21.38 22.13 22.36 23.06 23.42 0.10
St-Etienne-Chateaucreux Arrival a9.02 . a10.05 9.41 . b11.04 b11.34 b12.05 b13.02 a14.04 a15.05 . 15.47 a17.05 a18.03 a18.23 St-Etienne-Chateaucreux Arrival a19.05 a19.23 a20.03 . 20.11 . a21.41 . 21.45 a22.32 a23.04 . a0.03 . a1.05
Days this train runs
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 27, 2010, 10:47:16 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2010, 11:20:24 PM
TU, those schedules are simply to demonstrate that not only can we do this with conventional equipment, WE DID IT IN 1936!
are you also implying that freight rail traffic is the same in 2010 as it was in 1936?
(http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef013485758289970c-320wi)
SLEEPER IS READY, BUT THE TRAIN ISN'T HERE YET...
AND THAT IS JUST FINE IN 1936.The trains in 1936 were quite able to cover this ground at 100 mph, BUT this was an overnight sleeping car route. Sleepers were owned and operated by Pullman, a national railroad-hotel on wheels company and the railroads operated them only on contract. For the benefit of the overnight passengers on these short-route
trains, they moved along slowly so the waking and departing hours would not be extreme. Even so according to the ad, the sleeper is cooled and waiting for passengers at an early evening time for those that want to turn-in early and wake up at the other end of the line. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, Please stop posting those TGV schedules. I makes me want to cry.
Two hours from Paris to Lyon, city center to city center, same distance as Jax-Miami and trains leaving every thirty minutes. And they have been doing this for over twenty years.
We will never catch up in your or my lifetimes.
so what you're saying Ock is that there is enough room for multiple sets of tracks along the 100' ROW....that way passenger rail and freight rail could use separate tracks...I agree...
but here's the rub...
1. CSX owns the ROW so the state would have to reach a use agreement with them...I doubt that would be free.
2. then the state (or someone) would have to construct the additional tracks.
3. there is much more development adjacent to and near the tracks then in 1936....so there would likely be a need for major crossing upgrades (like overpasses).
Now, I'm not saying all this would cost $3 Billion (I'm still tyrying to figure out how a $1.5 Billion HSR estimate has doubled)...but it most certainly wouldn't be cheap!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uxksHLXhZg0/SyJObOSpqtI/AAAAAAAAALk/fB5cndAoKp4/s400/I-4+Traffic+Jam.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4427962702_5788a812da.jpg)
Sometimes you have to ask yourself, which one looks like the better spot for a train?Quote from: tufsu1 on November 28, 2010, 08:05:22 AM
so what you're saying Ock is that there is enough room for multiple sets of tracks along the 100' ROW....that way passenger rail and freight rail could use separate tracks...I agree...
but here's the rub...
1. CSX owns the ROW so the state would have to reach a use agreement with them...I doubt that would be free.
2. then the state (or someone) would have to construct the additional tracks.
3. there is much more development adjacent to and near the tracks then in 1936....so there would likely be a need for major crossing upgrades (like overpasses).
Now, I'm not saying all this would cost $3 Billion (I'm still trying to figure out how a $1.5 Billion HSR estimate has doubled)...but it most certainly wouldn't be cheap!
BINGO! Let's give the Jelly Bean to the man in the trilby hat!
1. Nobody is claiming that buying the CSX railroad track, or the land under those tracks would be free or even trouble free, it's just another business deal and would have to be worked out in detail. The fact is MANY other places have already done this... Virginia, North Carolina, hell even GEORGIA...OKLAHOMA now owns several thousand miles of track, but the trains on the same are BN-SANTA FE, UNION PACIFIC...etc... Even if they sold us the whole damn thing (and Florida already owns the CSX in South Florida and Orlando) it doesn't need to:
Effect their operations negatively, bringing only positive improvements for the railroad.
2. Constructing 90-120 mile per hour track is a damn sight cheaper then building elevated 186 mile per hour track down I-4 and I-95, and 100-120 miles per hour should be enough to prove and build more demand from Tampa-Miami. All Floridian's should know that as speeds increase the cost of track goes up exponentially - while time between stations falls at a slower rate. Once demand is there for more or better, we already have the short route under control.
3. Development must be the LAST consideration that Florida has to worry over if it plans on blowing an elevated railroad through the area around International Drive! Frankly The Cargill Fertilizer Company Inc; IMC Phosphate Co; Mulberry Phosphate Co; Purina Mills Inc, etc. will complain a hell of a lot less about more trains then the folks in Williamsburg, South Chase, Whisper Lakes and Celebration.
All I'm really saying TU, is that we don't even know if the numbers are solid, and here we've told the world and it's tax payers this thing will "make money - enough to expand it statewide..." NOT GOING TO HAPPEN and you and I know this for a fact. There are currently two passenger railroads in the world making money, Osaka-Tokyo and Paris-Lyon, THAT'S IT, end of tale, NOBODY MAKES A PROFIT ON PASSENGER RAIL. The Florida contention that they don't because somehow they are not up to American ingenuity is insane, look at their trains and look at ours and tell me who is smart. I believe enough to campaign against this boondoggle that it will be the death of passenger rails hopes in America...FOREVER. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2010, 09:48:49 AM
2. Constructing 90-120 mile per hour track is a damn sight cheaper then building elevated 186 mile per hour track down I-4 and I-95
who said anything about being elevated?
It is elevated at the stations as well as the Orlando and Tampa urban areas. According to the drawings Lakeland area is elevated too. Doesn't matter really if they do or they don't follow the drawings, it's too expensive, misses the market, will not make a profit, poorly designed from top to bottom...
OCKLAWAHA
alsto Pendolino high-speed trains the tilting train get up to 155mp on reg. tracks
alstom
(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/alaris/images/alaris4.jpg)
(http://www.net-lettings.co.uk/London-Property-News/images/Tilting-Pendolino-trains_1332_19674184_0_0_13241_300.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3179/2938880525_bbe10d8c87.jpg)
Now your talking.
OCKLAWAHA
to do 110mp-150mp one will have elevated the tracks or build bridges at all railroade crossing for local traffic cross the tracks
i do not care for elevated track i wood like the road over the track at the rail crossing maybee it will cost more but it will be worth it
Regressive Rick Scott just created 71,000 jobs in CA!!
Great going Florida!!!!
And a BIG THANK YOU from this fomer Californian to all those who voted for Rick Scott!!!
Well that didn't take long.......Cali is already welcoming the funds!!!
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-funding-20110217,0,174833.story
QuoteThe state is "in a great position to be … competitive for federal dollars," said Jeffrey Barker, deputy executive director of the California High-Speed Rail Authority. California has the nation's only truly high-speed train project in advanced stages of planning, he added.
Work on a $5.5.-billion, 120-mile section of Central Valley track is expected to begin next year. If new funds are received, the segment could be extended west toward San Jose or south toward Palmdale.
QuoteCalifornia has the nation's only truly high-speed train project in advanced stages of planning
Looks like a better fit for California...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 17, 2011, 06:59:17 AM
QuoteCalifornia has the nation's only truly high-speed train project in advanced stages of planning
Looks like a better fit for California...
I agree. California already has a functional passenger rail network and HSR is the next step. We don't have a functional passenger rail network. That is step one.
of course florida republicans turned it down...they think that satan comes with trains...they are very afraid of them...
I can attest that Satan does NOT come with trains, though I'll take an oath that he WAS at the throttle of one, near Wisconsin Dells on a long ago February morning.
OCKLAWAHA
We sure taught the feds a lesson, didn't we? The governor assumes that this pot of money is going to go back into federal coffers to reduce the national debt. Hardly! It's going to be someone else's gravy train - pardon the expression. And guess who still has to pay for it? Yup. Us. We are going to go back to being one of those states that pay more than their fair share in taxes in relation to what they receive from Washington.
QuoteIt's going to be someone else's gravy train - pardon the expression.
Judging by certain reactions... I think the expression is entirely appropriate... :)
Maybe so, but this gravy was so tainted it could easily kill every HSR project on the drawing boards. It was like saying we'll build a High Speed Train from JIA - to - Gainesville, so it will relieve traffic on I-95. I almost forgot, the station for Baldwin, Lawtey and Starke should be at least half way to Macclenny, Raiford and Brooker, respectively.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Garden guy on February 17, 2011, 07:53:26 AM
of course florida republicans turned it down...they think that satan comes with trains...they are very afraid of them...
Well you know how it is........we're not supposed to make it a partisan issue, but it's ok if the Republican guber does:
QuoteIt didn't matter that the federal government was willing to pay nearly all the cost nor that private companies were willing to cover any additional costs.
It was Obama's idea. And for this crook, that was enough.
Rick Scott couldn't just out and out say NO, although he wanted to. He had to go through the motions and say he was giving it "serious" consideration, although the ones who were paying attention knew all along that he was looking for excuses to kill it without having it look blatantly ideological and partisan.
So he started to do what he does best. What all crooks do. LIE.
QuoteHe would wait until the FDOT updated ridership and revenue projections -- scheduled for completion within two weeks.
No dice. He couldn't be bothered to wait for the report he said he was waiting on.
Tricky Ricky is basing all of these "facts" on information provided by a Glenn Beckian Libertarian think tank--the "Reason Foundation", which is known for being anti-rail. This along with information given to him by the ever-so-slightly right-wing Heritage Foundation. (I get my own "facts" from Fox News, thank you very much.)
So to recap, he dismissed the entire project with NO ridership study, NO contruction bids, and not even consultation with the FL Senate or House! Yes they are wingnut, but they are none too pleased.
quotes courtesy of SemDem
Oh and the Republican MO has always been: "Be afraid, be very afraid" to justify their very regressive policies.
Do you know what this MEANS? It means all the liberarls who wanted HSR can finally live in peaceful harmony together with HSR in California. I'll help you pack.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 11:33:56 AM
Do you know what this MEANS? It means all the liberarls who wanted HSR can finally live in peaceful harmony together with HSR in California. I'll help you pack.
Ahh, the old "If you don't like it, MOVE!" tactic.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on February 17, 2011, 11:40:36 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 11:33:56 AM
Do you know what this MEANS? It means all the liberarls who wanted HSR can finally live in peaceful harmony together with HSR in California. I'll help you pack.
Ahh, the old "If you don't like it, MOVE!" tactic.
Goes along nicely with the "If you think differently than I do, you're an idiot" tactic.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 11:33:56 AM
Do you know what this MEANS? It means all the liberarls who wanted HSR can finally live in peaceful harmony together with HSR in California. I'll help you pack.
To BT maybe Faye is onto something. Sorry Stephen.
QuoteMtrain, I know you like to see things in a kind of partisan way, but what is conservative about spending hundreds of billions of dollars of public taxdollars on Highways?
Stephen, I could care less about the roads, I don't think we need more roads. I'd rather take the 2 billion and expand our seaports, cause LORD knows, there was no money in the budget for ports in Florida. Not even Miami got their money to deepen their channel, and they are the logical choice.
Scott has the right priorities, and seaports will generate much more in "trickle down" wealth for all involved, from the cafe owner who serves the truck drivers, to the people who help build NEW rail to the ports. So even though we don't get an HSR, we still see consistent, sizeable growth. 71,000 jobs is mere pittance to the jobs created through expanding the ports around the state, or if we are greedy, our own port for that matter.
Quote from: Doctor_K on February 17, 2011, 11:43:21 AM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on February 17, 2011, 11:40:36 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 11:33:56 AM
Do you know what this MEANS? It means all the liberarls who wanted HSR can finally live in peaceful harmony together with HSR in California. I'll help you pack.
Ahh, the old "If you don't like it, MOVE!" tactic.
Goes along nicely with the "If you think differently than I do, you're an idiot" tactic.
No, we actually LIKE people who think differently, remember that melting pot idea we are so fond of........ie the tolerance for different ideas that could benefit us as a whole ( like seeing what they've done in Europe with their HSR), ................what we really despise is the so-called leaders, that use lies to justify regressive policies, and their ignorant enablers: the uninformed and misinformed electorate.
We could have avoided this, had we all worked hard to keep crook Scott out of office. Maybe we can now work together to get him recalled.
And a Stephen says, good ideas come from all THINKING people, conservative or liberal. That's why so many Republican lawmakers are equally upset with Rick Scott for his unilateral ideologically driven decision.
QuoteWhat are you proposing exactly?
Well we sure as heck are not going to move freight with HSR, are we?
The expansion plans at JaxPort are not predicated on HSR, are they? Did I miss something? Tom Slade told me a few years back that every major new road would need to be a toll road. Just not enough money from the state to build major new roads. Opportunity for SunPass to expand to other roads.
I can't say anything about what Miami or Tampa are planning for their expansion plans, but the CSX extension of track to the port is something that JaxPort was already planning. The expansion of Hecksher is already underway, none of this was predicated on HSR. We are growing our economic base in NE Florida regardless of what HSR plans were, and rightly so. We don't need it or want HSR in NE Florida, it does absolutely nothing for our economic base.
QuoteWe could have avoided this, had we all worked hard to keep crook Scott out of office. Maybe we can now work together to get him recalled.
I am reminded of the bumper stickers that came out after Gore/Lieberman lost "Sore Loser".
QuoteSo then we destroy the trucking industry?
Do you want to destroy the trucking industry? Did I write we will destroy the trucking industry?
QuoteYou seem to be pretending that we arent going to spend any money on highways, because we are spending the money on Ports instead.
Stephen - When was the last time you were on Heckscher Drive? If its been a while, I suggest you take it from 95 to 9a and see the improvements to turn the old 2-lane road to 4-lanes. Once the trucks go from the JaxPort area and hit 9a/95, what new roads do you plan to create? More jobs will come from having Post-Panamax ships arrive at our ports, than if we had HSR in our area. HSR would have done NOTHING for Jax, absolutely nothing.
I'd rather the President allow the State to use the 2 billion on transportation initiatives as it sees fit. Won't happen, but still I think Tallahassee knows what citizens need in our state than Washington DC. After all Washington DC thinks everyone in the state NEEDS healthcare and how is that going for us? State thumbed its nose at DC on Medicare program too. Do you see a pattern here? Don't fight the tape.
QuoteSo you agree that money is going to be spent on highways whether or not port improvements are implemented.
In other words the issues of Port Improvements and land based transportion are completely separate?
Not according to our governor....
Quote
"Rather than investing in a high-risk rail project, we should be focusing on improving our ports, rail and highway infrastructure to be in a position to attract the increased shipping that will result when the Panama Canal is expanded, when the free trade agreements with Colombia and Panama are ratified and with the expansion of the economies of Central and South America," Scott said in a news release. "By capturing a larger share of containerized imports entering our seaports, expanding export markets for Florida businesses, and emerging as a global hub for trade and investment, we can create up to an additional 143,000 jobs, according to a recent chamber of commerce study.â€
Looks like he wants to improve ports, rail and highway to benefit the Post-Panamax revolution.
Transportation minded folks knew that "electing" a Republican governor could spell trouble for Florida's High Speed Rail. Today, many Republicans who had been silent are now fighting to save High Speed Rail for Florida, Hooray for that!
QuotePRESS RELEASE
THE HONORABLE CORRINE BROWN
THIRD CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: February 25th, 2011
Congresswoman Brown: Rick Scott Puts Florida Jobs on High Speed Train to California
(Washington, DC) Congresswoman Brown delivered the following statement:
“Today is a very sad day for the state of Florida. As the Ranking Member of the House Railroad subcommittee, I am more than disappointed in the Florida’s governor’s decision to return $2.4 billion in funding for a high speed rail system. Just yesterday, Transportation Committee Chairman John Mica and I attended a previously scheduled listening tour to obtain input from Americans nationwide on the upcoming six year Surface Transportation Reauthorization bill. The hearing, which was jointly held with Senator Barbara Boxer and attended by several Members of the California congressional delegation, was widely attended and attracted a great deal of interest in the Los Angeles area. Sadly, I must admit that many of the California delegation members thanked Congressman Mica and me profusely for the high speed rail money Florida Governor Scott is about to hand over to their state. It was extremely painful for me to hear these types of remarks, as well as to physically be, ironically, in California at the same time our governor is working hard to give away over $2 billion in high speed rail funding destined for our state.
Unfortunately, Florida’s governor is much more interested in politics than in creating jobs or improving the transportation system for Florida residents. And his decision will not do anything to bring down Florida’s 12% unemployment rate. Indeed, the high speed rail plan for Florida served as a true example of a successful public-private partnership and would have created as many as 60,000 private sector jobs; yet because of the governor’s decision, it will never have a chance to get off the ground.
I sincerely wish that Florida’s leadership had a similar mind set as those governing the state of California. In fact, not only has California proven to be a willing, enthusiastic partner with the federal government, but they have already created the bonding capacity to help make high speed rail a reality.
It is more than sad that California and likely a few other states will also receive the tens of thousands of high quality high speed rail private sector related jobs previously headed to Florida, as well as the improved transportation and infrastructure capacity to move California residents more efficiently, that we also desperately need in Florida.
On Tuesday, I was in Salt Lake City, Utah, to see that city’s light and commuter rail system. This system, a light rail system known as “TRAX,†serves the entire Salt Lake Valley and serves an estimated 40,000 passengers daily.
Interestingly enough, this system was also initially funded by money ($300 million) returned to the federal government from the state of Florida. Indeed, in the late 1990s after the state rejected federal transit funds destined for a Central Florida light rail system, the funding was later redirected to the SLC Valley.
Indisputably, President Obama and Transportation Secretary LaHood have done everything possible to make high speed rail a success for the state of Florida.
Every single request made by the state, every concern, every issue â€" was addressed and remedied by the Department of Transportation. His decision today is a perfect example of the Biblical verse: ‘when there is no vision, the people perish.’â€
I would like to thank President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Nelson, Congresswoman Castor and Congressman Mica for all their hard work in trying to secure high speed rail for the state of Florida. I would also like to thank all of the stakeholders throughout the state of Florida for their efforts to make high speed rail an option for the state.â€
http://transportationnation.org/2011/02/25/more-criticism-rains-down-on-scott-from-fl-officials-for-killing-high-speed-rail/
To tell the truth, I don't expect Rick Scott to change his mind. However, I do hope the extra week is long enough for legislators to file a suit against him to keep that HSR money right here in Florida. I'm still having a hard time understanding how one guy can come in and kill decades of planning, after spending only 40 days in office and not even looking at updated studies.
I know there are several on our site that favor killing the plan and sending the $2.4 billion to another state, before allowing the private sector to bid with their own studies and numbers, but such an act would be devastating for rail funding at the state and federal levels for Florida over the next decade.
While we should continue to work on local funding mechanisms, Imo, it's imperative that we take advantage of the Obama adminstration's view towards rail while they are in office. Things run in cycles, so if we don't strike within the next couple of years, we'll most likely be waiting another term or two for a federal administration with similar views to access federal funding assistance.
So, I commend all of the legislators and officials (both Republican and Democrat) that are giving Scott hell to keep the money in Florida.
Even the people I have talked to who think it is a bad idea think it is wrong to kill HSR a few weeks before the private sector is allowed to bid.