I think I just lost my dinner.
The section of I-95, one of the most heavily traveled in Jacksonville, is structurally deficient and needs to be torn down, FDOT says. Daily average traffic counts conducted by the state in 2009 have traffic ranging from 172,000 vehicles using the roadway just off the Fuller Warren Bridge to 120,000 using the road south of Hendricks Avenue.
The $224 million project is expected to disrupt traffic on I-95 from north of Palm Avenue to south of San Diego Road, over Hendricks, King and Montana avenues. Construction is scheduled to begin in late 2012 or early 2013, and conclude in the summer of 2016.
When finished, the project will pass the recently completed intersection improvements at interstates 10 and 95 as the most expensive road construction project in Jacksonville history. That project cost about $152 million in construction with a total project cost of about $200 million and took six years to complete, from 2005-2010.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-11-08/story/southside-begins-bracing-224-million-construction-project
$224 million would give you roughly.....
22.4 miles of commuter rail or streetcar at $10 million per mile. That's basically a corridor stretching from Jacksonville International Airport to Orange Park or Avenues, depending on what side of the river you want to stay on.
sure....but we can't ignore maintenance of roads....the majority of the cost is in the reconstruction of the bridge structure.
Of course the project has grown...and now includes new lanes and ROW acquisition too.
Never said we shouldn't. Just making a cost comparison.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 08, 2010, 06:36:07 AM
$224 million would give you roughly.....
22.4 miles of commuter rail or streetcar at $10 million per mile. That's basically a corridor stretching from Jacksonville International Airport to Orange Park or Avenues, depending on what side of the river you want to stay on.
It would also buy you 1/2 of a courthouse!
or more accurately 100% of the new courthouse building....just not the old Federal courthouse, parking garage, and land acquisition.
Speaking of land acqusition, I wonder if the $224 million includes estimated ROW costs.
Simply marching to the drumbeat of ever more and more........
And the crashing symbols in the background-St.Johns county I-95 future level of service (Tufsu- you will be able to provide a clearer description-it escapes me now/away from file) was negotiated downward some years ago (who knew of this!?) via "growth management".
Repairing it is one thing--making it bigger is WRONG! That's how we lost Brooklyn. That's what hurt Annie Lytle. They do not need to expand 95. I fervently believe that with 295 and 9A and B, they should downsize 95 through the City. The money needs to go into mass transit.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 08, 2010, 09:05:35 AM
or more accurately 100% of the new courthouse building....just not the old Federal courthouse, parking garage, and land acquisition.
Nonsense as usual.
What is your logic behind trying to remove the cost of land acquisition from the total figure? Or saying that, oh the budget also includes renovating the state attorneys office? Like that somehow makes the project any cheaper? So that money wasn't actually spent? How would you propose something could be built without any land to build it on? Argue with yourself all you want, it doesn't really matter how much was spent on doorknobs and how much was spent on whatever else. The bottom line is that $350mm in real money that was spent on this stupid courthouse project, and still counting.
Those of us who live in neighborhoods close to any interstate should be watching very carefully as DOT eminent domains 35 homes and businesses, 100 parcels of land.
This project should be the beginning of a city-wide discussion about the cost of highways in engineering and materials and most importantly, effects on neighborhood sustainability.
Quote from: Kay on November 08, 2010, 09:22:27 AM
Repairing it is one thing--making it bigger is WRONG! That's how we lost Brooklyn. That's what hurt Annie Lytle. They do not need to expand 95. I fervently believe that with 295 and 9A and B, they should downsize 95 through the City. The money needs to go into mass transit.
I partially agree. The changes here are needed. The third southbound lane is needed, traffic at that bottleneck is a mess in the afternoons and the new exits onto Atlantic should have been there from the getgo. That said this revised plan sure seems to take a lot of footprint for what it does.
Quote from: Kay on November 08, 2010, 09:22:27 AM
Repairing it is one thing--making it bigger is WRONG! That's how we lost Brooklyn. That's what hurt Annie Lytle. They do not need to expand 95. I fervently believe that with 295 and 9A and B, they should downsize 95 through the City. The money needs to go into mass transit.
+5
Someone (Lake I think) posted a graphic last week that showed the added lanes. The ROW/ retention ponds will tear up the Phillips highway/Atlantic area. I hope the owners of Jackson Square will still go ahead with the original plans for their property. Not that Phillips highway is our best part of town (for right now), but it's between St Nicholas and San Marco, so it won't stay blighted forever.
If we had some leaders with a little fire they could be screaming to the Feds to immediately implement commuter rail as mitigation for the traffic this construction will cause.
When is the next MPO meeting or let's schedule a separate meeting with them about this project before we live to regret it. Does anyone know where Art Shad is on this?
Quote from: Jumpinjack on November 08, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
Those of us who live in neighborhoods close to any interstate should be watching very carefully as DOT eminent domains 35 homes and businesses, 100 parcels of land.
This project should be the beginning of a city-wide discussion about the cost of highways in engineering and materials and most importantly, effects on neighborhood sustainability.
Obviously at some point,now sooner on the horizon than once perceived,we will no longer simply 'expand' exisiting facility.
Or will we??
At every juncture in the quest and acommodation for growth,we should have asked: "And then what??"
Every time the City has come to a cross road............they appear to select the most costly and ill concieved avenue! Kay....don't know for sure about Mr Shad, but do know he did vote for the property tax increase as a YES! Based on that, whatever his position.........more than likely, it will be the wrong stance for the public!
Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2010, 11:20:21 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 08, 2010, 11:17:08 AM
If we had some leaders with a little fire they could be screaming to the Feds to immediately implement commuter rail as mitigation for the traffic this construction will cause.
Bill Killingsworth has presented exactly this proposal.
I think our MPO 'meh'ed it to death.
do you know this to be true.,..or do you just think it?
QuoteIm beginning to wonder exactly what our TPO actually does, to be honest.
Perhaps you could attend their public meetings or speak directly with their staff to learn more about them firsthand.
Quote from: mvp on November 08, 2010, 02:15:42 PM
QuoteIm beginning to wonder exactly what our TPO actually does, to be honest.
Perhaps you could attend their public meetings or speak directly with their staff to learn more about them firsthand.
Indeed.
I saw a hint to what would eventually be what is known now as "Nocatee" many months before the proposal emerged to public knowledge thanks to review of obscure MPO (now TPO) future roadway maps.Much transparency and predictive capability avaialable and one can always pursue past the transparent to the depths of smoke and mirrors.Few citizens take advantage.
Rememebr too that in the event state growth mamangement oversight via Department of Community Affairs goes away in favor of 'we know it better' Regional efforts the likes of TPO will come forward front and center in that regard which is a good hint as to what 'they' the TPO "do".
I fondly recall former MPO head Calvin Burney-his erroneous statement/Florida Times Union that 30,000 cars a day would use Brannon Chaffee "as soon as it opens" was but one quip in a long history of mostly baseless promotion of Brannon Chaffee as alternate to Blanding.Calvin was referencing published 30,000 ADT (average daily traffic count) in regards to future ADT,much ADT as result of the new corridor itself.......but no relation to the image one could expect at ribbon cutting.
Calvin would not retract the statement nor would the FTU make any effort at correction,although FTU Mike Clark did exhibit frustration towards the FTu with the message "good luck".Calvin soon left MPO.
This is what happens when "the public" is absent from the inner circle.
I just heard that Tibits is going to be forced to move and some other 34 property owners have already received notices from FDOT. This really sucks. More concrete is NOT the answer. Take a lot Atl for example. They have lanes and lanes and lanes of concrete and overpasses...And their traffic is still a nightmare. This is NOT the answer.
Tidbits is not being forced to move...according to the article in the paper, they will choose to move if the project is actually done as proposed....and the other 34 property owners are being notified that their property may be impacted.
That said folks...go to the meeting tomorrow....I think you'll hear this is far from a done deal...and I highly doubt construction will be starting within 2 years.
Quote from: Kay on November 08, 2010, 12:00:32 PM
When is the next MPO meeting or let's schedule a separate meeting with them about this project before we live to regret it. Does anyone know where Art Shad is on this?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10206.30.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10206.30.html)
Tomorrow.
If anybody would like to meet up beforehand, PM me.
QuoteAlthough they don't go to any bother to alert the public about their meetings, do they?
They do. Their meetings are all listed on the TPO web home page
http://www.northfloridatpo.com/index.php?id=1 (http://www.northfloridatpo.com/index.php?id=1).
They also run a monthly meeting ad in the TU with the meetings for the following month.
In general, the TPO Board meets at 10 a.m. on the second Thursday of every month in the TPO Board Room, 1022 Prudential Drive (except on holidays as Veterans Day this month and they don't meet in January and July). The next Board Meeting is December 9.
The Citizens Advisory Committee meets the first Wednesday every month (except January and July) at 6 p.m. same location.
All the meetings are open to the public. The agendas and minutes of the meetings are also available on their website.
Wait until you see what is coming after 2015!
Reconstruction of I-95 the rest of the way to the 295 interchange.
You think those repetitive rup-rups between University and South Philips Hwy are not so bothersome now....ha! Wait until 2015 when the work starts, they will have grown to boom-booms.
JTA would love to have the JTB/I-95 interchange fully funded by that time to sync the effort.
It would be interesting to see the ratio of the traffic measured on I-95 of local vs transit (passing through).
How do you think they should notify the public of their regularly scheduled meetings?
Quote from: spuwho on November 08, 2010, 08:26:21 PM
Wait until you see what is coming after 2015!
Reconstruction of I-95 the rest of the way to the 295 interchange.
You think those repetitive rup-rups between University and South Philips Hwy are not so bothersome now....ha! Wait until 2015 when the work starts, they will have grown to boom-booms.
Oh I know! That center lane on I-95 is doing a real number to my tires and suspension. I purposely drive fast just so I can stay in the far left lane which is new! ;D
Good ideas. Posters might be a challenge, but the electronic postings should be easy enough. I think they accept comments any time online via e-mail, but I believe they are updating their website to include comment submission in the same place with agendas.
Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2010, 09:52:21 PM
For example, I post frequently here on the subject of transit, planning, and transportation and yet the TPO is an enigma to me. It shouldnt be.
I'm sure the TPO and other agencies could do more to involve the public....but the public has to meet them at least part of the way.
the TPO provided significant public comment and involvement opportunities as part of the 2035 LRTP, including articles and posts on this site....workshops were held all over the metro arae in the evening...attendance was good at some meetings/forums, poor at olthers...at some point citizens need to step up and make their voices heard, regardless of the venue.
Quote from: Kay on November 08, 2010, 09:22:27 AM
Repairing it is one thing--making it bigger is WRONG! That's how we lost Brooklyn. That's what hurt Annie Lytle. They do not need to expand 95. I fervently believe that with 295 and 9A and B, they should downsize 95 through the City. The money needs to go into mass transit.
AGREED COMPLETELY
^I don't think you can blame this on consultants. Imo, this rest with local leadership.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 08, 2010, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2010, 09:52:21 PM
For example, I post frequently here on the subject of transit, planning, and transportation and yet the TPO is an enigma to me. It shouldnt be.
I'm sure the TPO and other agencies could do more to involve the public....but the public has to meet them at least part of the way.
the TPO provided significant public comment and involvement opportunities as part of the 2035 LRTP, including articles and posts on this site....workshops were held all over the metro arae in the evening...attendance was good at some meetings/forums, poor at olthers...at some point citizens need to step up and make their voices heard, regardless of the venue.
Also, to be fair, the public did come out and suggest a rail based plan (Scenario D) as their top choice for the 2035 LRTP. The municipalities didn't want to alter their comp plans, so that one was rejected. The public also participated heavily in the city's visioning plan process a year ago. I was a part of the Southeast Vision Plan committee and we specifically developed a vision plan that recommended commuter rail on the FEC to help revitalize the Philips Highway corridor. Instead, we're being force feed BRT.
I think public participation is as good as its going to get. Imo, it's only going to get worse if the public feels their desires are being ignored over and over again. At some point, we've got to listen to the public for a change to build up comradery and trust.
^I was selected by Brad Thoburn to be a board member but meetings were open to the public and advertised as such. We actually had pretty good turnouts at all of our Southside meetings. Our group meetings were held on evenings or Saturdays so more people could attend.
Call me old fashioned, but for some reason, these changes to the roadways, downtown, etc.. are changes I guess I saw coming when I reached my 40's, not my 30's. What's to be expected when that time comes is even scarier with this damn town anymore.
Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2010, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 08, 2010, 10:47:09 PM
To be fair, the public did come out and suggest a rail based plan (Scenario D) as their top choice for the 2035 LRTP. The municipalities didn't want to alter their comp plans, so that one was rejected. The public also participated heavily in the city's visioning plan process a year ago. I was a part of the Southeast Vision Plan committee and we specifically developed a vision plan that recommended commuter rail on the FEC to help revitalize the Philips Highway corridor. Instead, we're being force feed BRT.
I think public participation is as good as its going to get. Imo, it's only going to get worse if the public feels their desires are being ignored over and over again. At some point, we've got to listen to the public for a change to build up comradery and trust.
Meh. Completely disagree with you. Not so much as to the things which the public suggested and supported at the meetings mentioned, but the manner of how things are being conducted.
This whole process is being conducted in the stone age. If I remember correctly you were invited to participate by the organization for the Southeast Vision Plan committee. The rest of the public which would be vitally affected had no clue it was going on.
The reason that the public keeps getting disappointed is because the instruments of public policy is so disconnected from what the public really wants. Open up the communication and you will get meaningful support from the public instead of just a few horse trading politicians.
Being able to participate and not get fired from your job for missing work is not too much to ask on a public project of the magnitude contemplated by the MPO, for example.
Not being aware that there was even a meeting? well...thats just ridiculous.
Perhaps you should bring your issues with the local elected officials. After all, they are the ones that make up the TPO board and make the final decisions. Doug Conkey (Clay County commissioner) is Chairman Michael Corrigan is Vice Chair, you could start with them.
http://www.i95overlandbridge.com/i95overland/
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 08, 2010, 04:57:46 PM
Tidbits is not being forced to move...according to the article in the paper, they will choose to move if the project is actually done as proposed....and the other 34 property owners are being notified that their property may be impacted.
That said folks...go to the meeting tomorrow....I think you'll hear this is far from a done deal...and I highly doubt construction will be starting within 2 years.
thats for clearling that up. I was told by my coworker who was reading the article. So I was able to read to retain the information for myself. lol
I wonder where they will relocate to? further into San Marco?
Quote from: Kay on November 08, 2010, 09:22:27 AM
Repairing it is one thing--making it bigger is WRONG! That's how we lost Brooklyn. That's what hurt Annie Lytle. They do not need to expand 95. I fervently believe that with 295 and 9A and B, they should downsize 95 through the City. The money needs to go into mass transit.
(http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/beyond_2020/papers/white/rapid_transit_en-4.jpg)
The top illustration is what JTA is promoting with BRT, and the lower illustration is what MJ is promoting with RAIL. The JTA model will work fine close in, but become unreasonably expensive as it moves out into 874.3 sq miles of Jacksonville, not to mention surrounding "regional service" cities. While the MJ model should not be followed for the close in historic core, it should work with an economy of not only operating expenses but also in Vehicles. Elimination of duplicate miles (in and out of downtown) effectively doubles the headways of buses circulating in the community. For this reason, I'd suggest this plan is a good one. While I agree in principal, in this case I believe not necessarily expansion but major change is badly needed. The bridge if not brought down by FDOT will come down by itself so there is really no discussion on rebuilding the road there.
I have attended meetings and planning sessions and continuously suggested this as an opportunity to make the FREEway more user friendly. Service roads will provide a long lost opportunity for commercial development along some of the best located land in the city. An FULL interchange at Atlantic and Philips will give much better access to and from the South and East which should be a major boon to San Marco and the struggling INACCESSIBLE Hilton. The FREEway portion of the project is pretty much the same only at ground level.
Buying the right-of-way for the expanded service road will also give us a direct express route for BRT or STREETCAR between Southbank and Saint Nicholas.
OCKLAWAHA
^At what point does "community" come into play? I agree that incorporating an interchange at Philips and Atlantic would be a positive for traffic flow. However, I'm not so sure that Atlantic "inside of San Marco" needs to be as wide as seven lanes across, forcing a row of buildings to be demolished in the process. That's overkill. There, we should be looking at reconfiguring the street to better fit with the urban pedestrian friendly context surrounding it. Do this right and it could be a good example of FDOT can achieve with proper planning. Screw it up and its just a repeat the failed transportation planning techniques that forced I-95 through the Northside.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 08, 2010, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2010, 09:52:21 PM
For example, I post frequently here on the subject of transit, planning, and transportation and yet the TPO is an enigma to me. It shouldnt be.
I'm sure the TPO and other agencies could do more to involve the public....but the public has to meet them at least part of the way.
the TPO provided significant public comment and involvement opportunities as part of the 2035 LRTP, including articles and posts on this site....workshops were held all over the metro arae in the evening...attendance was good at some meetings/forums, poor at olthers...at some point citizens need to step up and make their voices heard, regardless of the venue.
Indeed.
Proactive.
In many instances there can be opportunity for citizen legal action in addressing proposed action,but only via proactive involvement,including garnering 'standing".
Responding to a newspaer article is way late in the game.
On a similar vein, for instance the Florida Wildlife Federation has established a Northeast Florida office in order to acommodate leg work,monitor and engagement.There is also a Southwest Florida Federation office which has won wide applause and "wins" for community service and prudent growth management initiatives-thanks to continuous,on the ground proactive involvement.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 09, 2010, 12:54:56 PM
^At what point does "community" come into play? I agree that incorporating an interchange at Philips and Atlantic would be a positive for traffic flow. However, I'm not so sure that Atlantic "inside of San Marco" needs to be as wide as seven lanes across, forcing a row of buildings to be demolished in the process. That's overkill. There, we should be looking at reconfiguring the street to better fit with the urban pedestrian friendly context surrounding it. Do this right and it could be a good example of FDOT can achieve with proper planning. Screw it up and its just a repeat the failed transportation planning techniques that forced I-95 through the Northside.
Lake, I was addressing ONLY the FREEway and service roads + the interchanges themselves.
OCKLAWAHA
I live in the affected area. Surprisingly FDOT has engaged my neighborhood and surrounding areas several times over the past year on the plans for this project. They appear to have listened to input from the previous workshops as I see several of the suggestions included in the revised plan. Personally I am all for it, if the folks losing their property are paid a fair value for the ROW aquisitions.
I saw today that Tidbits had posted a notice to customers RE: planned I-95 construction. In a nutshell, they said they are already looking for a new location. =(
I went to meeting tonight (along with 150 other people)....Tidbits was mentioned during public commet period....FDOT understands the concerns and is working on some options to mitigate impacts.