Metro Jacksonville

As was widely predicted............electing Regressives is a Rail Killer >:(. See here:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10110.0.html

and here: Party of NO is a Rail Killer http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9887.msg180883.html#msg180883 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9887.msg180883.html#msg180883)

It only took Kasich 12 hours to kill Ohio train project- 8000 jobs gone

Quote"Passenger rail is not in Ohio's future,'' the Republican said at his first news conference after Tuesday's win over Gov. Ted Strickland. "That train is dead."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/11/4/917592/-It-only-took-Kasich-12-hours-to-kill-Ohio-train-project8000-jobs-gone

Ideally, the Federal funding will go to a different project/state in this event.  Not doubt, that wouldn't be Floriduh though.

Since Rick Scott has already promised death to Florida's HSR, we can expect it to go next.

I doubt sunrail and Miami's metrorail are feeling very safe either.

Is there any background on this project?  How much was it estimated to cost?  Who was funding it? 

Which project?  Ohio's or Florida's?

Sorry Ohio's.  I was just wondering what the circumstances were.  Was the state funding a large portion of it?  Just wondering what the motivations were to cancel the project.

This is entirely off the top of my head...some of the details may be off.

The rail plan was to connect the 3Cs - Cleveland, Columbus, Cincy (currently connected by I-71 all the way through). Not entirely sure on the funding, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority was coming from federal funding with Ohio's previous budget issues.

Also, if I recall, the plan was pretty much completely unpopular, if for no other reason than the plan indicated that taking the train for any leg would be longer, more expensive, and far more inconvenient than a car alternative.

Quote from: Clem1029 on November 05, 2010, 02:10:39 PM
This is entirely off the top of my head...some of the details may be off.

The rail plan was to connect the 3Cs - Cleveland, Columbus, Cincy (currently connected by I-71 all the way through). Not entirely sure on the funding, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority was coming from federal funding with Ohio's previous budget issues.

Also, if I recall, the plan was pretty much completely unpopular, if for no other reason than the plan indicated that taking the train for any leg would be longer, more expensive, and far more inconvenient than a car alternative.

That's what I read. A combination of that and some annual operational and maintenance fees (though those were something like $17m and really not much considering their overall state budget). But the fact that it was longer and more expensive than driving really didn't help their cause any.

'Snail rail' criticism dogs supporters of Ohio's 3C passenger rail plan
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/04/snail_rail_criticism_dogs_supp.html (http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/04/snail_rail_criticism_dogs_supp.html)

Quote"With today's historic announcement by President Obama, Ohio takes a major step toward modernizing our state's transportation infrastructure," said Governor Strickland. "The 3C Corridor will create economic development opportunities and serve as a model of environmental sustainability. Most importantly, it will put thousands of Ohioans to work over the next few years."

  The $400 million stimulus investment in the 3C "Quick Start" is expected to result in at least 255 immediate construction jobs over a two year period. According to job-creation formulas by the U.S. Department of Commerce, this investment in Ohio will generate at least 8,000 spin-off jobs and could add at least $1.2 billion to Ohio's economy.

QuoteOhio's 3C corridor is the most densely populated area in the country devoid of passenger rail service and could serve 6 million people as a linchpin in a national rail network, said Strickland and Jolene Molitoris, director of the Ohio Department of Transportation. She accompanied the governor to Washington.

"If we don't do this we will be left behind," Strickland told Ohio reporters at the state's Washington office before his meetings with the federal officials. "Ohio will be an island in the middle of this nation without passenger rail service -- we will not be appropriately connected to a system that will be broad-based, and it would be intolerable for us."

Amtrak is studying how many passengers the rail service would likely attract and how much the state would need to subsidize it. The study is due in August.

The $400 million figure is up from the previous estimate of $250 million for Ohio's corridor, but Strickland said that depending on the Amtrak study's findings, the cost could wind up well below $400 million. A spokeswoman for the governor said the state hasn't yet submitted a formal proposal for money.

The rail corridor would use existing freight tracks but would require new signals, construction of parallel tracks and grade separations in congested areas, as well as passenger terminals.

QuoteStrickland also said that he thinks a 3C corridor could be up and running by the first quarter of 2011, a slight delay from initial estimates of the end of 2010, and that freight-train companies CSX and Norfolk & Southern are backing Ohio's initiative.

Ohio is likely to face stiff competition for the federal cash. Although the 3C corridor is on the U.S. Department of Transportation's top 10 list

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/06/10/3C_RAIL.ART_ART_06-10-09_A1_FOE4PO9.html

The Party of NO just KILLED 8,000 jobs!!!

Party of "NO" has started allready! Glad I don't live in Ohio..............Rick "I plead the Fifth" Scott has said he will kill that HSR Project............maybe Jacksonville can get it instead?

I don't get it.  If the ride is going to take longer than driving a car no one is going to go through the hassle of riding a train.  What's the big deal here?  Even if the feds pay for construction it's still a waste of money if it won't be utilized.

Florida has an ally in the rail game...

From Jax Biz Journal
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/trade_trucks_trains/2010/11/mica-ill-speed-up-infrastructure.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/trade_trucks_trains/2010/11/mica-ill-speed-up-infrastructure.html)

QuoteMica: I'll speed up transport projects
Jacksonville Business Journal - by Mark Szakonyi
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 3:08pm EDT - Last Modified: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 3:25pm EDT

Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, said he will speed up the approval of infrastructure projects and free up “idle” stimulus funding if he is picked to chair the transportation and infrastructure committee in the next Congress.

“Among my top legislative priorities will be passing a long-term federal highways and transit reauthorization, a long-overdue Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization, a new water resources measure and a long-term Coast Guard reauthorization,” Mica said in a news release.

Mica, a strong critic of Amtrak, said he will push for a more efficient passenger rail system, including “a better directed high speed rail program.” Mica, who is the ranking minority member of the committee, is expected to replace Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn, who lost his seat to Republican Chris Cravaack Tuesday.

Quote from: Jumpinjack on November 05, 2010, 12:55:00 PM
Since Rick Scott has already promised death to Florida's HSR, we can expect it to go next.

Florida's HSR project is so poorly concieved, this would be the greatest gift he could give us. Consider if our professional opinions are worth anything, this thing will fail so gloriously as to automatically kill every other HSR idea from Nome to Tierra Del Fuego.

Florida needs rail, al la the Florida East Coast project, it won't use flying trains that only serve FREEway rest-stops and Mice.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 05, 2010, 08:55:31 PM

Quote from: Jumpinjack on November 05, 2010, 12:55:00 PM
Since Rick Scott has already promised death to Florida's HSR, we can expect it to go next.

Florida's HSR project is so poorly concieved, this would be the greatest gift he could give us. Consider if our professional opinions are worth anything, this thing will fail so gloriously as to automatically kill every other HSR idea from Nome to Tierra Del Fuego.

Florida needs rail, al la the Florida East Coast project, it won't use flying trains that only serve FREEway rest-stops and Mice.

I think this is the right idea, applies to Ohio as much as Florida. It isn't a case that all rail is good rail. Bad rail projects need to be killed. Kasich is doing my home state a major favor. Hopefully Scott can do the same for my adopted state.

hmmm ratha interesting

Quote from: Clem1029 on November 05, 2010, 09:23:43 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 05, 2010, 08:55:31 PM
Florida's HSR project is so poorly concieved, this would be the greatest gift he could give us. Consider if our professional opinions are worth anything, this thing will fail so gloriously as to automatically kill every other HSR idea from Nome to Tierra Del Fuego.

Florida needs rail, al la the Florida East Coast project, it won't use flying trains that only serve FREEway rest-stops and Mice.

I think this is the right idea, applies to Ohio as much as Florida. It isn't a case that all rail is good rail. Bad rail projects need to be killed. Kasich is doing my home state a major favor. Hopefully Scott can do the same for my adopted state.

Ohio's project (lately) made WAY more sense then the Florida Mousedoggle. Ohio is/was now planning a system of HrSR known in the industry as HIGHER SPEED RAIL, similar to Florida's FEC RY project. Something that could grow into full blown HSR as ridership builds... A WAY wiser way to do this, especially when a State DOT decides to chunk everything that has worked for railroads over the last 2,500 years or so, and build down the middle of interstates from airport to playground to parking garage. Ohio also has a built in winner of city pairs, and toss in Michigan and you have an almost OMG good layout. DETROIT-TOLEDO-Lima-Dayton-CINCINNATI; CLEVELAND-Columbus-Springfield-Dayton-CINCINNATI; CLEVELAND-TOLEDO (Keeping in mind the next stops down the line from CLEVELAND are Erie and BUFFALO; turn another way and they are CLEVELAND-Akron-Canton-PITTSBURGH, and CLEVELAND-Youngstown-PITTSBURGH). Not one of these lines is as long as the Florida East Coast! Talk about transportation density...


It's a damn historic shame the old Cincinnati and Lake Erie, and the Indiana Railway, were ever abandoned. Both were high speed interurban lines of the 1920's, and some portions have lasted to date. The concept of large (train size) trolley like electric rail cars, outrunning an airplane (97.9 mph - back in the day) would be enormously useful today. Imagine 2 or 3 of these cars coupled into trains, flying between towns, then rolling down Main Street to a station. What towns and cities? Try all of the above + most of Indiana, Illinois, Northern Kentucky (The old Louisville EL) and even into Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri. How would that translate into today's world? Perhaps that is the BILLION DOLLAR QUESTION...

OCKLAWAHA

Hey Ock,

The CL&E and IR lasted as long as they did because the operations were subsidised by the rate payers of the power grid. Was the service great? Absolutely! The CL&E could deliver overnights between Cleveland and Cincy with fantastic capability.The only problem was they lost money doing it. They couldn't return their cost of capital.  The IR was worse. Even with Sam Insull Jr.heavy investments in the operations, they couldn't support themselves. The service between Ft Wayne and Indy via Bluffton was high speed all the way.

This was also delivered in rail cars with low levels of comfort (some IR cars dated from 1903), No A/C, unless the windows were open and you had to make sure you didn't get on the dairy local in the morning (as they made flag stops to pick up the fresh milk).

That definitely wouldn't pass for service today and the capex is no less. You are right, it is a BILLION dollar question.

I'm always poking at our history wondering what if the page had turned in a different direction. The Interurbans were perhaps one of the best idea's for transit in high density area's ever tried. The real problem wasn't so much that they were not profitable but that at the time the government was milking the railroads (of all types) to build a competitive highway system. To me the what if's include such things as modern cars, EMU trains, grade separations, private right of way, advanced signaling, etc... Just imagine had we supported the interurbans and recognized their potential. Removing ones self from the what-if's of history and into the possible solutions to the future is often not such a long leap.

Quote
A big what-if is what if the interurban survived into the wartime era. The experience of the Chicago North Shore line was that wartime boom in passenger traffic (due to gas and tire rationing) kept the line alive into the postwar era, until it finally abandoned service in the early 1960s.

What makes the North Shore somewhat equivalent was that it had a close connection with the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, and, like the CL&E and Wright-Patterson, had a station on post, used by Navy personnel, especially for weekend liberty to Chicago or Milwaukee.

The North Shore had a fairly good commuter trade, too, which was enough to sustain the road well into the postwar suburban boom.

With the demise of CL&E there was still a transit need during wartime. The CL&E franchise was converted into bus operations, and it was a bus line that provided wartime commuter service to Wright and Patterson Fields, Riverside, and Fairborn.

Anecdotal evidence indicates bus service continued into the postwar era. The Dayton end of the line was at the former interurban station at 3rd & Patterson, which was torn down and rebuilt as this streamlined bus station, with bus parking to the side and maybe rear (this was also a good walkable location for people living out east but working in the Webster Station industrial area)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: acme54321 on November 05, 2010, 05:24:47 PM
I don't get it.  If the ride is going to take longer than driving a car no one is going to go through the hassle of riding a train.  What's the big deal here?  Even if the feds pay for construction it's still a waste of money if it won't be utilized.

You have to understand this  is a partial  rail fetish site.   Your right if it takes longer to use the train than  to drive no one will use it.  But that doesnt matter its RAIL!!

Quote from: acme54321 on November 05, 2010, 05:24:47 PM
I don't get it.  If the ride is going to take longer than driving a car no one is going to go through the hassle of riding a train.  What's the big deal here?  Even if the feds pay for construction it's still a waste of money if it won't be utilized.

First of all lots of times using mass transit is less of a hassle than taking a car and often the car is less hassle.  I don't know if you have ever had the chance to use a transit system but it can make going into a crowed are much easier. Second ridership is only part of the benefit. Transit lines tend to promote development and that won't be the typical sprawl model we see in our newer suburbs.  The ancillary money brought in by investing in transit is often quoted as six to one.
Your point has much merit and if no ridership is there investment won't be justified but ridership is only one factor and not the most important IMO.  I'll bet ridership studies have been done already so the point is moot anyway.

What people don't realize is that it can take 30-60 years to develop the surrounding development to support healthy transit (especially rail transit). Highways are easier, take less time to build and develop around.That is why politicians love them so much.

Yeah, so there are some rail proponents here, but I haven't seen much irrational discussion around it, just intelligent suggestions on how rail might offer some solutions.

I-95 from St Johns County to metro Jax may be the most efficient way today (the only way) but what about 30-40 years from now?

People promote rail because it is a good long term solution. But it has to make sense operationally and financially.

In the case of Ohio, it doesn't appear it was either.