I just got a notice today from the library stating that I had 39 overdue library books. Funny thing is that I haven't been to the library in over a year, nor have I ever checked out that many books at one time and certainly never laid eyes on any of these titles.
I called up and was told that library cards are treated like credit cards. Really? Well, I get monthly statements from my credit card company. I also have a due process with them.
My library card is indeed missing. Not the one that I carry in my wallet, but rather that little tag one that was (at one time) attached to my key ring. No doubt it fell off at some inconvenient time and in some rather inconvenient place.
It was picked up by an art lover, all of the books are art books.
According to the small voice on the library's line I should have reported it stolen when it happened. Too late now. I owe for these books.
Anyone else ever been in this position?
I would caution anyone out there to throw away that little tag card as it can easily fall off of your key ring. And obviously the library never checks ID.
I know it is hard times for the public library, but not protecting people's identity, and allowing just anyone to check out a book without looking at an ID is not the way to go about it.
And, btw, I was told that a person can check out up to 50 books.
The thief no doubt thought: Start Here. Go Anywhere.
Can they make you pay? I would immediatly file a police report for the lost card, unknown date.
They say they can (good luck...stand in line).
Good point about the police report. I'll do this on Monday.
My credit card company would have called and said something like this:
"This is a security call. We realize you have not used your card in the past two years, so when there was a charge of 39 books, at one time, we thought we would call and confirm."
Quote from: sheclown on October 30, 2010, 05:40:38 PM
They say they can (good luck...stand in line).
Good point about the police report. I'll do this on Monday.
My credit card company would have called and said something like this:
"This is a security call. We realize you have not used your card in the past two years, so when there was a charge of 39 books, at one time, we thought we would call and confirm."
If this really happens, guess who takes the fall? The public library. This is why there are so many small business and corporations are stepping up their practice of checking your ID to minimize the negative impact of their products / services (declined credit transactions etc.).
The public library is going to keep this up and realize that they cannot keep up recovering the lost books, they will join the party eventually.
-Josh
Never carry anything on your keyring you aren't willing to lose/let someone else have- most things will eventually fall off if you use your keys enough, the friction against the ring just wears them down.
I also have no idea why people think it's safe to carry USB drives on them- I found one at the zoo one time and it had this couple's entire financial history on there, legal documents and all sorts of stuff and if the wrong person had found it, they'd still be digging themselves out of a hole. Luckily I did a bit of internet detective work and found them and got it back to them. If you need to carry all that stuff with you, for god's sake- encrpyt it. I like those Ironkey drives- too many password attempts and it will destroy itself, they also offer some that if you mark it as stolen, the second someone hooks it into a device with internet access, it destroys itself.
Library cards should have "pin" numbers associated with them. Unlike credit cards which have a credit limit, library cards are unlimited. If someone finds your card, they can go into the library and check out 50 books, without showing ID.
Surely when someone used my card to check out 39 art books (probably the expensive ones) AT ONE TIME (I'm thinking they needed help to carry them all out), you'd think someone, somewhere, would have at least raised an eyebrow.
If there had been a pin number attached to the card, if my card had been found and used, the thief would not have had access to that number.
Does the library have surveillance cameras? Does anyone know?
sheclown......don't know about Dowtown Library, but know that the Deerwood Branch does not have security camera's! My card does not have the pin/Id written on it and no number.........card is useless! You can not use the card if you have no pin or id number , at the automatic checkout counter, and thats the one I use......hate standing in line, so have never used the front desk to check anything out!
The Library is completely wired. Unfortunately, the excellent former security director Mike Sigler was fired a few months ago to save money, so the current state of security at the Library is unknown. Mike was on top of everything and could always be relied on to identify a mug shot or M.O.
I suggest finding out when the books were checked out, and then visiting the security office. Call me, and I will go over there with you.
This would have been much less likely to have happened if the Library required positive ID for admission, but that idea has always been turned down by the Library management. The Library is "Open to All", as we all too often have painfully found out.
@ Jerry...awesome. Thanks. I will.
Following NotNow's sage advice, I went to my neighborhood police station 44th and Norwood. "I'd like to file a police report" I said to the officer behind the bullet proof glass. "What is the nature of the crime?"
"Someone stole my library card."
you need a pin for self service, so you should need a pin or ID for the front desk. Why ask for the pin at self service only? it is a form of ID verification. I do get email confirmation of books checked out, and notification of upcoming due or past due books. Anyone with a library card should sign up for this service, as I have had books I checked out DT and returned to Brentwood that were just sitting there on the desk and not scanned back in.
So, did the officer take the report? If so, did you get a copy to take to the library? What's the outcome, if any?
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 02, 2010, 09:07:40 AM
you need a pin for self service, so you should need a pin or ID for the front desk. Why ask for the pin at self service only? it is a form of ID verification. I do get email confirmation of books checked out, and notification of upcoming due or past due books. Anyone with a library card should sign up for this service, as I have had books I checked out DT and returned to Brentwood that were just sitting there on the desk and not scanned back in.
Is that new? I don't recall ever using my PIN at the self-service station. I only use it online when I'm reserving books or checking my account.
Also I wonder if you can change the max checkout quantity on your account? I have no need for 50 books at one time - at least that would limit the exposure.
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 02, 2010, 09:07:40 AM
you need a pin for self service, so you should need a pin or ID for the front desk. Why ask for the pin at self service only? it is a form of ID verification.
Exactly, Uptowngirl. Any kind of id should work for the library. The pin is required whenever we do the self-service but they don't ask at the checkout desk for either id or pin.
Also, be sure to point out any damage to library materials before checking out or immediately on return.
FYI: Our libraries do not take any precautions to protect their patrons' identities. Don't ask for IDs, check cards for signatures, nada. Library patrons have a reasonable expectation of having simple, basic precautions taken to ensure their safety, especially since one can check out 50 books at a time. Not good for the patrons, certainly not good for the library.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 02, 2010, 09:39:15 AM
So, did the officer take the report? If so, did you get a copy to take to the library? What's the outcome, if any?
I'm heading to Chaffee Road. Scene of the crime. I'll need to call JSO from there.
sheclown........will cost you $2 Dollars but you can get a replacement, which automatically cancels your old one! Just did that which is why I know about the cost! Can't help you on the fines end, I had one fine for a book there was no way in hell I would have checked out.............Preserving Your wealth.............thats why I have a matteress!
Quote from: sheclown on November 02, 2010, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 02, 2010, 09:39:15 AM
So, did the officer take the report? If so, did you get a copy to take to the library? What's the outcome, if any?
I'm heading to Chaffee Road. Scene of the crime. I'll need to call JSO from there.
That's ridiculous, an officer is able to take a report from any location, as long as it's still within the city limits. Sounds like you're being jerked around :-\
They are on drugs...they should have notified you. Sue them. It is not all your fault. How was you to know someone else would use your lost card? They should require ID along with the card when someone uses it.
"HU"
I have filed a police report. We'll see what happens.
Thanks All!
I just heard from Ron Block, head of circulation. He gave me the "when-you-get-a-library-card-you-are-held-responsible-lecture" once again, (although I warned him before he started that it was really going to piss me off if I had to hear it once again, he couldn't help himself--I swear I heard a tsk tsk in the background).
Good news (sarcasm here) he will find me the cheapest replacements he can.
I gave him my "library-patrons-have-a-reasonable-expectation-of-security-protection" speech, at which point I heard the "sometimes-friends-give-their-cards-to-others" rebuttal.
He said that the library does not recognize a police report as evidence of theft, b/c there is no investigation.
The library branches do not have cameras nor do they ask for IDs. It is against their policy to ask for IDs, actually. "The libraries, themselves, make investigations impossible," I said.
:D Imagine... losing a wallet or purse is traumatic enough... canceling credit cards, getting a new drivers license, monitoring credit, etc... never thought to cancel a library card too! :o ::)
Quote from: sheclown on November 03, 2010, 04:46:27 PM
I just heard from Ron Block, head of circulation. He gave me the "when-you-get-a-library-card-you-are-held-responsible-lecture" once again, (although I warned him before he started that it was really going to piss me off if I had to hear it once again, he couldn't help himself--I swear I heard a tsk tsk in the background).
Good news (sarcasm here) he will find me the cheapest replacements he can.
I gave him my "library-patrons-have-a-reasonable-expectation-of-security-protection" speech, at which point I heard the "sometimes-friends-give-their-cards-to-others" rebuttal.
He said that the library does not recognize a police report as evidence of theft, b/c there is no investigation.
The library branches do not have cameras nor do they ask for IDs. It is against their policy to ask for IDs, actually. "The libraries, themselves, make investigations impossible," I said.
That's preposterous. Under these circumstances, I would refuse to pay.
It's hardly your fault that someone stole your card and rented 39 books.
@ Chris. I love it when you say "preposterous". I agree. & no way will I pay.
I will, however, see if I can address the library board about their policy. It is naive and reckless. They are the holders of the community's trust.
I'm not saying I completely agree with the library's policy here, but when it comes down to it isn't the card holder responsible for their card? I've understood this since I had to pay replace a library book when I was 8 (I raked a lot of yards for that $15).
They fingerprint you to get into DisneyWorld.
You have to bring your grandparents remains with you to get your driver's license renewed.
You can't get a job at the labor pool without picture ID and social security card...
...and yet, you can walk into the library and check out thousands of dollars of their inventory without having to prove identity.
Reckless.
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
+1
You and I are in complete agreement. Stolen is stolen, she isn't responsible for someone else's criminal acts.
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
My identity was stolen. What is the difference between this and someone stealing (or hem...finding..) a credit card and running up a couple of thousand of dollars in merchandise?
The result is the same.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on November 03, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
Just exactly how much does it cost to ask "can I see your ID?"
Sheclown, please know I'm not trying to pour acid on an open wound. I really feel for you as I know how expensive library fees can be and when that many items are involved they rack up fast...
To your question though, the difference between the library card and credit card is the agreement you signed and acknowledged upon your first use of the card. Notice the Library application is a half page and offers one condition. The credit card application has 4pt font and goes on for 10 pages...
Quote from: sheclown on November 03, 2010, 10:06:18 PM
Quote from: Singejoufflue on November 03, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
Just exactly how much does it cost to ask "can I see your ID?"
+1
To my understanding, the library has added pin numbers to the self checkouts due to abuse or theft via library card. Once they have acknowledged that they needed to add security for theft reasons at the self checkouts, the reasonable expectation is that they needed to add that same security to the counter check outs. Asking for and checking a picture ID is not an unreasonable expectation.
When we live in a world that requires one to show multiple forms of identification to renew a government issued picture ID how is not checking an ID acceptable to anyone when dealing with up to 50 books that could easily total a value of $ 5000.00?
For all we know, the way the system is set up, it could easily be an inside job and the books sold. How many innocent people have had to pay thousands out of their pockets because the library board and perhaps the chief librarian have been negligent to their clientele, which, by the way, is us, the tax payers. Their reckless policies of not checking ID's and not protecting their clientele in a reasonable and normally accepted manor may even make them complicit.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on November 03, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
That's like all those signs at the car wash stating that they aren't responsible for anything no matter how negligent they are with your vehicle. They can write whatever they want, it doesn't mean that's what's actually going to happen. I don't really care what the card says, the library cannot hold her responsible for someone elses criminal acts. Period.
You've got it right, sheclown. Skip over all moralizing library staffers and go straight to the library board. Lots of money is at stake here because the library can't bring itself to ask for some sort of id or even a pin number at the front desk. That's a bunch of baloney.
Does Ken Amaro know about this yet?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 04:20:30 AM
Quote from: Singejoufflue on November 03, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
That's like all those signs at the car wash stating that they aren't responsible for anything no matter how negligent they are with your vehicle. They can write whatever they want, it doesn't mean that's what's actually going to happen. I don't really care what the card says, the library cannot hold her responsible for someone elses criminal acts. Period.
Judging by the policy on the cards and the applications it looks the customer is being held responsible for not maintaining their card, not "someone else's criminal acts"
The problem with holding the customer "responsible" is that immediately upon card loss, a person can check out the books. Looking at the date of my situation, all books (39 of them) were checked out within 5 minutes.
This could have been minutes after my card went missing.
This is an unreasonable standard that the library certainly doesn't hold itself to.
Last I knew, the library was charged with being good stewards of items that the public and private contributors put into their keep. Doesn't seem like a good policy just letting anyone walk out of the door with them.
Quote from: MrPajitnov on November 04, 2010, 05:15:18 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 04:20:30 AM
Quote from: Singejoufflue on November 03, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: NotNow on November 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
This is just stupid. The library must accept some liability for checking out all of those books without a question or asking for ID. Has anyone looked at the application for a card?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://jpl.coj.net/lib/library-card-app.pdf
Additionally, the back of the library card, where patrons sign (ostensibly reinforcing the user beware aspect), says: "Members are responsible for any activity on their card until the library is notified."
sheclown, I'm sorry that your card was lost ages ago and you had to find out via a sizable bill.
Instituting a policy of ID verification for the tiny percentage of people who may be the victim of a less than savory individual finding a library card and misusing it seems a bit much. The card was not stolen but was truly lost. The Library will suspend the card once it is reported lost/stolen, which is reasonable and sufficient. It is not the Library's responsibility to ensure its patrons uphold their end of the agreement, nor should taxpayers have to pay for the installation of security cameras and other investigation equipment or increased staff to check IDs and inquire about borrowing habits, assess the appropriateness/validity of a large transaction, or inquire as to the lapse in use.
That's like all those signs at the car wash stating that they aren't responsible for anything no matter how negligent they are with your vehicle. They can write whatever they want, it doesn't mean that's what's actually going to happen. I don't really care what the card says, the library cannot hold her responsible for someone elses criminal acts. Period.
Judging by the policy on the cards and the applications it looks the customer is being held responsible for not maintaining their card, not "someone else's criminal acts"
Someone fraudulently used her card without her permission. That is most certainly someone else's criminal act. The way you're trying to make it sound is as though she loaned it to her friend and was then shocked to receive a bill. That's not what happened. A police report was filed documenting that it was stolen, which incidentally the library says they "don't accept" police reports. Seriously? Someone then used it without her knowledge or permission.
So again, your thoughts really don't hold much water. You would apparently hold one person responsible for the criminal acts of another person, which occurred without the knowledge or consent of the allegedly responsible party. It's preposterous. By your logic, if someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank, I should go to jail for bank robbery?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 05:45:17 PM
By your logic, if someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank, I should go to jail for bank robbery?
I can't help myself sometimes. When did you report your car stolen? How long after the robbery was that? Where were you when this was taking place? Did you 'loan' your car out to anyone? Is there an extra set of your keys to the car? Why don't you come down to the station and lets get some more facts.
So yes, you might
visit the jail and answer some questions if your car was stolen and used in a bank robbery. But that shouldn't make you a cop hater.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on November 04, 2010, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 05:45:17 PM
By your logic, if someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank, I should go to jail for bank robbery?
I can't help myself
That's quite apparent, no need to state the obvious.
And I'm not a cop hater. I think most of them are quite professional. Others are not. Depends on the cop.
Just like I find certain people are complete idiots, but that doesn't make me a total misanthrope. There are plenty I like.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 05:58:44 PM
That's quite apparent, no need to state the obvious.
And I'm not a cop hater. I think most of them are quite professional. Others are not. Depends on the cop.
Just like I find certain people are complete idiots, but that doesn't make me a total misanthrope. There are plenty I like.
I would like to have responded with something witier, but I have to google misanthrope first.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on November 04, 2010, 06:02:23 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 04, 2010, 05:58:44 PM
That's quite apparent, no need to state the obvious.
And I'm not a cop hater. I think most of them are quite professional. Others are not. Depends on the cop.
Just like I find certain people are complete idiots, but that doesn't make me a total misanthrope. There are plenty I like.
I would like to have responded with something witier, but I have to google misanthrope first.
:)
I just received another phone call from Ron. The tab is $1500.00 with the possibility of working it down to $981.00
I can either make payments or it gets turned over to a collection agency.
I plan on attending the library board meeting next week.
sheclown........this may sound stupid, but have you contacted Dr Johnny? Something is absurdly wrong here and I find this completely unmentionable! No one should be hung out to dry in this manner! You need some back up in the wings, let me know!
kamaro@firstcoastnews.com I'm sorry Sheclown..I'm sinus crud tweaked and tired.(sick)..or I would E-mail him.
It would be perfect if this got air time.
I am not afraid of the library. I am not afraid that they will have some outsourced credit bureau call and harass me.
I do fear that if the library does not become more responsible for the items placed in its care precious inventory will dwindle.
I am angry that instead of looking into policy it chooses to shift all of the blame for this on me without discussion.
Makes me wonder how often this sort of thing happens.
Recently (July of this year), the library changed policy and required pin numbers to use the self-checkout service. Apparently, book theft was a concern (using "lost" cards -- no doubt). One could assume that the reason pin numbers were not required at front desk check out is that there is an expectation of security using a live library clerk.
Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2010, 08:24:07 AM
I am not afraid of the library. I am not afraid that they will have some outsourced credit bureau call and harass me.
I do fear that if the library does not become more responsible for the items placed in its care precious inventory will dwindle.
I am angry that instead of looking into policy it chooses to shift all of the blame for this on me without discussion.
Makes me wonder how often this sort of thing happens.
Recently (July of this year), the library changed policy and required pin numbers to use the self-checkout service. Apparently, book theft was a concern (using "lost" cards -- no doubt). One could assume that the reason pin numbers were not required at front desk check out is that there is an expectation of security using a live library clerk.
Good and when the collector calls, send them an FDCPA validation notice, and demand that they provide you copies of proof that you incurred the charges by checking the books out. Validation in this case would require that they demonstrate that you checked the books out, not simply that books were checked out on a stolen card. When they can't do that they will drop it.
If they are dumb enough to report it on your credit after being unable to provide validation, then dispute it and each time they verify it that racks up $100-$1k in statutory FCRA damages per incident. The FDCPA also carries statutory damages of $1k, plus both provide for actual damages as well. This situation is ridiculous, don't just take it.
Chris -- amazing info. I had to look it up :) Am sharing for the benefit on anyone else finding themselves in this situation.
FDCPA:
Fair Debt Collection Practices Act
Validation Notice:
FDCPA requires debt collectors to:
Quote
Provide verification of the debt[24] If a consumer sends a written dispute or request for verification within 30 days of receiving the §1692g notice, then the debt collector must either mail the consumer the requested verification information or cease collection efforts altogether. Such asserted disputes must also be reported by the creditor to any credit bureau that reports the debt. Consumers may still dispute a debt verbally or after the thirty-day period has elapsed, but doing so waives the right to compel the debt collector to produce verification of the debt. Verification should include at a minimum the amount owed and the name and address of the original creditor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Debt_Collection_Practices_Act
In other words, when the debt collector calls me, I ask for "verification" and they won't be able to give it. If they pursue, I can sue.
sheclown............you might have to get right up in their faces and start stepping on their toes if they won't come to their sense's..............what little they have! It might be interesting to find out just who the hell is pushing for this?
I went to the Board of Trustees meeting today at the library. Nice place they have in those back rooms! The meeting was lead by a very distinguished looking man, kind and gentle. But, alas, he shook his head and said other than putting me on a payment schedule, there really isn't anything the board can do.
I did find out that my card was used twice (which is news to me). Twenty were checked out on August 19th and 19 were checked out on August 24th.
They are so intent on the little disclaimer written on the card "you are responsible for your card and need to contact the library if it is lost" that they fail to see the identity theft as any real issue here. Their main concern is that neighbors will still be able to borrow other people's cards and that children, without ID, will still be able to check out books.
Certainly access to library materials is important.
But it is also important that the library take steps to ensure that if they are going to prosecute people who lose their cards, that they not hand the books to the wrong folks in the first place.
When I asked about photo IDs, I was told that it wasn't economically feasible. Well, it certainly isn't economically feasible for them to place this on the backs on their patrons, either.
I will talk to the governance committee in January.
As a side note, I was assured that I would still be able to use my library card if I was placed on the payment schedule. HA! I told them I would never own a library card again. (Shoot, I'll just borrow my neighbors) ???
QuoteWhen I asked about photo IDs, I was told that it wasn't economically feasible.
B. S.Lets have some fun with these Jacks and Jennies. Any pro bono legal opinions out there before Sheclown gets a lawyer?
I've received a few legal suggestions. One of which is to ask for validation of the debt (ie. make them prove that it was me who incurred it). Another suggestion is arguing that I am not actually in contract with the library b/c I have no choice but to sign given I don't have any other public library options around.
I do believe that the library needs to look at its policies. To just dismiss me and my situation without examining their role in this seems quite irresponsible. Given the vast inventory they ARE responsible for--
I am in a similar situation with the Parking Department right now. Something about denial of right to due process. I'll elaborate later. Who do these people think they are?
This just makes me so mad. I looked around on the Internet and almost every library has the same policy regarding lost cards. Sort of a mindless attitude IMO.
However, you still have your library card. This is the one thing you signed up for, showed id for and did not lose. What you lost was a key ring card - given to you gratis with little or no id checking. Just saying.
The other thing is that when you can get hold of a list of the books taken out, check the branch libraries and also the main library to see if they have been returned. We have been charged with missing books only to find that they were sitting on the shelf. Sometimes the librarians don't record returned books but just reshelve them. You can call the branches and ask (providing you get a helpful person) or just drop by and give a look. Or publish the list here and let us go to our branch libraries and look too.
Thanks Jack.
Libraries are great vessels of goods that the taxpayers have invested their hard working dollars into. To set checkout policies in order that neighbors could lend their cards to each other (which was actually stated yesterday in the board meeting) seems recklessly naive.
Are they any business men or women on the board?
Chamblins and any other used book store too.
Jack, I was thinking about doing that. Good idea. Besides, I always like treasure hunts in Chamblins. There might even be a muffin in my future too.
It a great place to have coffee and watch the world go by.
I doubt you would even have to lose your library card to have this problem. Making a fake card would be extremely easy, especially if the card numbers are issued in series instead of randomly.
Quote from: Lunican on November 11, 2010, 12:12:33 PM
I doubt you would even have to lose your library card to have this problem. Making a fake card would be extremely easy, especially if the card numbers are issued in series instead of randomly.
Good point. And you tend to think of library cards as somehow harmless, but $1500 worth of merchandise is quite a bit...CDs, DVDs, these things are valuable and easily sold "on the street".
And since my card was used twice, that means twice someone pretended to be me.
Can this only be happening to me?
She, We were in the library this afternoon and noticed that a couple of the clerks stations had been replaced with self-checkout machines. They also have credit card scanners on them so that fines can be paid and the magnetic locks on DVD cases released.
Spoke with Ms. Woods, one of the long time librarians, and she said that the machines required a PIN and that now even the clerks would ask for a PIN when something was checked out. When asked, she said that your situation was the reason for the new requirement for PINS for all transactions, even the face to face ones.
I know pin numbers make it more complicated, but I don't think it is a bad idea to make sure a person's identity is safe.
Thank you public library. And thank you Dog Walker for sharing this.
And mostly, THANK YOU METROJACKSONVILLE.
You level the playing field for us little guys.
Is this what the Jacksonville Public Library wants to become?
Quote
Texas Woman Jailed for Overdue Library Books
Updated: 16 hours 37 minutes ago
Ben Muessig, Contributor
(Dec. 7) -- Authorities threw the book at a woman who had a few overdue library books.
Police in Baytown, Texas, say they locked up Jessekah Few last month after the 25-year-old failed to show up in court for a hearing about unreturned library books.
"It's not a very common charge," Baytown Police Department Detective Alan Cliburn told WSAV.com.
Masterminds Need Not ApplyBaytown Police Department73 photos Authorities in Texas really threw the book at Jessekah Few. Police say they arrested the 25-year-old on the day before Thanksgiving because she hasn't turned in a number of overdue library books. Few has been charged with a misdemeanor -- but she insists the books were destroyed in a house fire.
Authorities in Texas really threw the book at Jessekah Few. Police say they arrested the 25-year-old on the day before Thanksgiving because she hasn't turned in a number of overdue library books. Few has been charged with a misdemeanor -- but she insists the books were destroyed in a house fire.
"It's part of the deal, part of the agreement that you enter into. It's just like anything else -- you can't take something that doesn't belong to you and just hold onto it."
Library officials say they only pursue charges against members who haven't returned more than $200 of property after multiple requests.
Few -- who was charged with a class-C misdemeanor -- has reportedly stated that the books were destroyed in a house fire seven years ago. She says her landlord, the fire department and even the Red Cross can attest to the blaze.
Contrary to reports indicating that Few was arrested on Thanksgiving Day, Baytown police told AOL News that she was apprehended the day before the holiday.
Quote from: sheclown on October 30, 2010, 04:51:35 PM
The thief no doubt thought: Start Here. Go Anywhere.
A little tip I learned...make copies of any cards you receive and never sign the back of any of your cards. Write in perm marker "See ID" (even if there isn't a sig line). Doesn't help much for self checkout but....
I always receive an email reminder when my books are due...do you have your email on file with the library/linked to your library card?
I keep keyring type cards electronically on my iPod. If someone steals my iPod...it destroys everything after ten failed password attempts. They might get the iPod but not the info.
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 02, 2010, 09:07:40 AM
Is that new? I don't recall ever using my PIN at the self-service station. I only use it online when I'm reserving books or checking my account.
Yeah, I find it odd that I'm asked for a PIN online but not at the library. I haven't been in a while though so, it may have changed?
PINs are now required at all of the self-service stations. The clerks at Willowbranch aren't asking for them yet, though.
I received this today in the mail.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/library001.jpg)
Quote from: sheclown on December 13, 2010, 06:08:15 PM
I received this today in the mail.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/library001.jpg)
Have you referred them to the other option "pound sand"?
How about insertion into place where sun does not shine? OR Fold into many corners and............! sheclown, I feel for you kid..........Maybe just politely telling them it would be a cold day in hell before they would collect anything. Your taxes pay to keep their doors open and your not getting what you pay for in either service nor books! I wonder just how many people this has happened to? The first time a bill collector calls me, I would tell them point blank, do not call be again or I will file a complaint with the SAO. I want your name, address and a phone number and your supervisors name.....now what is it?
What I find really odd, and this will be the content of my first letter in response, is when I went to the board of Trustee's meeting, I was told that I would have an opportunity to address the governance board which will be meeting in January.
Apparently the board met before this and I have been denied my opportunity to speak to them. :'(
I think you should first make an effort to have a sit down friendly chat with Harry Regan, Chairman of the Friends of the Library.
Your argument should center on the fact that you did not lose your library card; you lost the unasked for, unwanted, unsigned for key chain card.
That you did not sign any document showing that you were liable for a key chain card.
That the library did not ask for any id, pin number or whatever to certify that the stolen key chain card was in fact being used by the correct person.
Therefore, the library should eat these fines - but you are willing to join the Friends and help fund raise for new books.
ps. I just shredded my key chain card and plan to present the library with the bits and a note saying these bits of plastic have lead to problems for legitimate library card holders.
Quote from: Jumpinjack on December 14, 2010, 08:40:13 AM
ps. I just shredded my key chain card and plan to present the library with the bits and a note saying these bits of plastic have lead to problems for legitimate library card holders.
jumping jack! you are awesome!
Does anyone know if the library board is subject to Sunshine Laws and public disclosure?
Sure it is, they're a public/government entity.
Also I agree with the other poster, the keychain tag may be a different story than the actual card, if they sent it to you unasked-for and you didn't sign any statement of responsibility for it as they make you do with an actual library card.
I'll shred my keychain card! Where can I send the pieces to get the message across?
We wrapped ours in an envelope with a note addressed to the Library Board (unfair, poor practices, deeply concerned, blah, blah) and dropped it off at the Main Library.
I LOVE you guys. Thanks.
NN,good Idea..I would say leaving the scissored shreds with the checkout Librarian will get the message across.
No envelope, just the message that you have destroyed a way for your ID to get exploited through the Library System.
Maybe they should actually "Profile" the downtown library for scumbags...I'm not talking appearance here..just the fact that they let some a$$hole get away with what? 30 books on sheclowns Key fob? C'mon. ::)
Sheclown, do you even recall receiving the keychain tag in the first place and then losing it, or was the first time you heard about the keychain tag when they told you that's what the thief if had used to check out all the books? How do they send these things? By mail? Who's to say you ever got it in the first place, it could have been stolen from your mailbox?
Chris, When you renew your card they give you a plastic square that has both the regular library card that you sign and the key chain card all in the same square. You punch out each of them from the plastic square.
Even when we first got ours, the key chain card seemed like a pretty dumb idea to me, but them I'm old fashioned about that sort of modern "convenience" and hate bulky key chains. Ours floated around in the bottom of our book bag until we destroyed it after reading Sheclowns problems.
BTW, when you use a clerk for checking out even now, they do not ask you for ID or a PIN number. You only have to provide a pin when you use the self-check out machines.
And you thought your debit card could get you in trouble!
Chris, it is as DogWalker said. And I placed that key ring card on my key ring. Since I clip my keys to my belt loop when I'm working (so I can have the cool maintenance man look), it could have dropped off just about anywhere.
Years ago, I heard about credit cards that had small key ring type cards and I thought to myself "geez, I would never carry it around like that." That being said, I had no idea that a person could check out up to 50 books at a time without question from the library.
I would have been better off if I had put a credit card key tag on my ring.
We are safer with credit cards, there are limits, and they have fraud department. Besides, credit card companies don't allow just anyone to use your card.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5253/5441737364_9f5b61147b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26272136@N07/5441737364/)
collection agency2 001 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26272136@N07/5441737364/) by sheclown (http://www.flickr.com/people/26272136@N07/), on Flickr
my favorite line is..."The Library has requested that we provide you a courtesy notice."
Sheclown, You should immediately send a letter back attached to a copy of this letter saying that you dispute the debt because you did not check out the materials. Request what proof they have that you checked out the materials ( which, of course, they don't have ).
Deny, Delay, Defend! (Title of an interesting book BTW)
That's a good idea.
Also, I'm requesting some public record stuff about me and I think I'll request some stuff about their procedures for protecting their patrons from fraud.
February 13, 2011
Unique National Collections
119 East Maple Street
Jeffersonville, IN 47130
Dear Ms. Daley:
Please be notified that I dispute the validity of this debt or any portion thereof. I lost my library card and did not check out this material, please prove that I did indeed check it out. If I did not check out this material, how can I possibly be responsible for someone else’s crime against me? Posing as another person is identity theft, pure and simple.
Whoever found my card did this without my knowledge or consent. At no time did any library personnel ask for identification from the person who stole my identity and presented themselves as me for the purpose of checking out this material. I have filed a police report.
Additionally, I spoke to the board of Trustees in November to explain the situation, in person. The library knows my card was lost and knows they did not ask to see any identification from the person posing as me even though the person checked out the books at the front desk.
In summary, I am disputing this debt - you are required to take no action while this amount is in dispute. You are required to cease and desist all action on this alleged debt until the dispute is resolved.
Sincerely,
Gloria DeVall
Reference Account # FJP0003894921