The issue of logistics is one of those topics that a smart mayoral candidate could grab hold and run away with. This isn't just a port/CSX issue. A viable solution should involve multiple entities (JTA, COJ, FEC, NS, to name a few not mentioned). Develop a plan where each entity benefits and then pool resources. We just may find out the solution that helps port logistics, economic development, creates jobs, downtown redevelopment and mass transit isn't really as costly or difficult to pull off as originally imagined.
QuoteAs the Jacksonville Port Authority continues its efforts to stay competitive, currently working to deepen the harbor to accommodate bigger ships that will soon be coming through an expanded Panama Canal, it learned of another way it could attract cargo customers.
The authority’s board of directors held its monthly meeting Monday and invited CSX representatives to discuss how they could better work together.
Fredrik Eliasson, vice president of emerging markets for CSX, explained how other East Coast ports are investing in intermodal container transfer facilities, which help make the ports more efficient by loading cargo directly from ship to rail and eliminating the need for trucks in the process.
“Through research we identified the top five ports for containerized freight, which are forecasted to see the biggest increases when the widening of the Panama Canal is completed, and they are New York-New Jersey, Norfolk, Va., Charleston, Savannah and Jacksonville,†he said.
“Three of these ports have been able to grow their market share from the beginning of the decade: New York-New Jersey, Savannah and Norfolk. Combined, they have spent about $750 million on very efficient infrastructure between the port and the rail hub in order to attract that cargo,†said Eliasson.
Port Authority Chair David Kulik explained how the cargo is delivered to the rail lines currently.
“The idea was when we got up over one million TEUs (twenty-foot equivalent units, a measure of capacity in container transportation) coming from Hanjin and MOL that we would have to have an alternative to bypass all these trucks going on the highways over to the Westside,†said Kulik. “The Westside is the connector to Norfolk Southern and CSX.â€
The involvement of trucks adds to the time and cost to move cargo, Eliasson explained.
Kulik understood and agreed with Eliasson’s point that Jacksonville could lose customers if it doesn’t offer services of other East Coast ports.
“If we don’t do something, then the traffic that would come into Jacksonville could bypass us for Savannah, even though it could be traffic that would be destined for areas that we would serve locally. We have to be careful about where our inaction will force traffic to go,†said Kulik.
The discussions are focused on the port’s Blount Island and Dames Point terminals, said port spokeswoman Nancy Rubin.
To help the port be competitive, CSX has proposed to build a bypass track so its trains wouldn’t have to go through Downtown Jacksonville and could more quickly reach key markets, such as Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis and Louisville.
Eliasson explained that the bypass line could cut up to 12 hours of transit time and minimize the impact on Downtown by rerouting the trains. No timeline has been set to start the project.
“We are committed to the plan we laid out in 2008 in terms of putting $40 million of our capital to help make the infrastructure even more conducive to good service out of this port. We want to engage the port to figure out a way that we can jointly work together to create a plan to grab the funding,†said Eliasson.
Kulik agreed that the two organizatins needed to act quickly to take advantage of available opportunities.
“Here are two homegrown entities and why aren’t we doing more business together? The question will be raised by the mayor asking, ‘what level of investment will be required in order to facilitate a greater level of involvement by the two of you?’†said Kulik.
“The city obviously can’t fund this level that we are talking about. I’m seeking any and all help I can get on this,†said Kulik.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=532152
I recently looked on the FDOT web site for statewide rail projects and the Manley to Callahan project is referred to by the state as the Jaxport/Springfield bypass. It is listed as high priory with a near term timeline(1-5 years) and carrys a shovel ready status as "medium". Funding is 50-50 between Jakport and CSXT likeley through the New Jobs Bill. Check the link below and look at the top of page 4.
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/PlanDevel/Documents/DraftInvestmentElement/K-Table5-14.pdf
This is all great news. Let's get it done.
Very interesting...I thought they had a system in place...makes CENTS to go from boat to train....Dont see the need for another firm to haul it to a train yard. They dont want to go through downtown?? If they taking about going north they would have to switch tracks over by stockton street before getting to Jax Train Terminal....Only reason they would have to go downtown was if they were shipping south right??
Also another thing...when a boat coming from Asia goes though the Panama Canal wont Jax be the first US port to enter? Miami has a port as well. Its would be easy to rip business from other ports after contracts are finished.
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 26, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
Very interesting...I thought they had a system in place...makes CENTS to go from boat to train....Dont see the need for another firm to haul it to a train yard. They dont want to go through downtown?? If they taking about going north they would have to switch tracks over by stockton street before getting to Jax Train Terminal....Only reason they would have to go downtown was if they were shipping south right??
No, they are one of the few major Eastern Seabord ports that dont have direct to rail offload capability. We've been talking about it over the last few weeks here on the board. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9948.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,9948.0.html)
Miami/Port of Everglades would be the first port of call such boats can offload, but Jacksonville has inherent logistics advantages Miami does not... and direct to rail capabilities enhances this logistics advantage. Otherwise, these same over-the-land advantages Jacksonville has are now being better utilized by Savannah and NYC. Without such rail offloading capability, massive amounts of gross tonage could literally sail right by Jacksonville. If such cargo ends up in Savannah, they actually could still pass through Jacksonville by land and we essentially waste massive amounts of port revenue.
IMO, the Mile Point navigational issues and direct to rail offload capability are more pressing needs than another 5 foot deepening of the canal. I say that b/c new estimates for a worldwide slow down in demand means that ships wont have the cargo loads though 2014 they were projected to have 5 years ago(less cargo means less weight, which consequently means shallower draft requirements)... thereby in the short term at least, money would be better utilized on fixing Mile Point and building out rail offload facilities. That's not to say the port will need a deeper channel, it absolutely will. But with the money we're talking about here(which is signficant), the port will have better bang for its buck by getting these two issues on the front burner.
BTW, the port got bad news last week when it found out its going to spend 25 million or so to fix some of the neglected moorings along Talleyrand, specifically at Crowley's facility. This neglect goes back as far as the early 70's when the city was so wrapped up in the offshore nuclear power plants, that they stopped funding Jaxport and Talleyrand became the redheaded stepchild. This is what happens when a city stops investing in itself.
^Bad news for Jax. Miami and FEC won a federal TIGER 2 grant last week to reactivate a 4 mile rail line and to construct a rail intermodal facility at their port. We have an article in que about this and a few other Florida projects.
And Jax actually did not get any of that money, although at least they tried to for what that's worth.
Right now Jaxport is literally trying to play catch up in the race for federal money(they're trying to retroactively get in on moneys approved but not yet allocated). This is why I think its critical that we have a dedicated liason in this city for Jaxport funding sources. A sort of dedicated lobbyist on city payroll that finds money for the port. It is a major INTERNATIONAL economic engine, and as such needs a professional that will drive such money into the port's gas tank.
How does it hurt Jax?
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 26, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
Very interesting...I thought they had a system in place...makes CENTS to go from boat to train....Dont see the need for another firm to haul it to a train yard. They dont want to go through downtown?? If they taking about going north they would have to switch tracks over by stockton street before getting to Jax Train Terminal....Only reason they would have to go downtown was if they were shipping south right??
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/Jacksonville_railroads.png)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/jax-existingraillinePROPOSED-1.jpg)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/RAILROADFLOWFL.gif)
Hope these little maps help untangle the mess and open some understanding of what's up in JAX. That last map BTW is a USDOT diagram of rail traffic... but of course, "Florida knows Orlando is THE hub."
Currently the trains run on the Bount Island Terminal - JAXPORT RR, from the terminal near the JEA northside power plant due west to the railroad line along north Main Street, which is intersected at about 9-A and N. Main. From there the trains move south past Busch, over the Trout River, through Panama Park and make a HARD turn to the southwest at Main and 50Th Street. From Main and 50Th the trains move arrow straight crossing between the main CSX AND NS rail yards at Grand Crossing, just west of where the MLK-20th-New Kings-Old Kings interchange is located, and just below the current Amshack. Actually the line continues on to around 12Th and Ellis where it turns South coming out on the Jacksonville-Baldwin Mainline at I-295 and Beaver Street.
Actually from 12Th and Ellis straight west the same line pokes it's head under I-295 and is cut, at one time this segment went on to Baldwin on what is today the Bike Trail. The other end of it was High Springs, where the ACL once had another massive yard and shop complex. This entire line was once the JACKSONVILLE SOUTHWESTERN RAILROAD, which belonged to the large Panama Park-Phoenix area Lumber Mills. So YES there were once TWO LINES to Baldwin, this one became the ACL and the current Beaver Street Alignment was the SEABOARD AIR LINE'S MAINLINE... AND... the first railroad to enter Jacksonville... but that's another story.
Damn shame the state is either too stupid or ignorant of history, or perhaps the cost is too high to rebuild the old YULEE-CALLAHAN ROUTE, which was also abandoned in the 1970's era. This would prevent having to go all the way up to the river at Gross before turning west-southwest to Callahan. It would also make Yulee the junction of the new cutoff, the First Coast Railroad to Fernandina, the FCRR north to Kingsland, and the CSX-JAXPORT to town, future freight and COMMUTER RAIL TRACK. OCKLAWAHA
BTW, Savannah is the only major port in Georgia and as such gets significant money funneled into it by the state. Jacksonville does not enjoy such an advantage, and has to compete for state dollars with Miami/Port of Everglades, Cape Caneveral, Pensacola and Tampa.
Quote from: fieldafm on October 26, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
IMO, the Mile Point navigational issues and direct to rail offload capability are more pressing needs than another 5 foot deepening of the canal. I say that b/c new estimates for a worldwide slow down in demand means that ships wont have the cargo loads though 2014 they were projected to have 5 years ago(less cargo means less weight, which consequently means shallower draft requirements)... thereby in the short term at least, money would be better utilized on fixing Mile Point and building out rail offload facilities. That's not to say the port will need a deeper channel, it absolutely will. But with the money we're talking about here(which is signficant), the port will have better bang for its buck by getting these two issues on the front burner.
Good call fieldafm, I'll toss in a full time "Jacksonville Railroad Authority," that might start as a one-person representative between City-Railroads and JTA-FDOT, then grow into a fully operational commuter rail-Freight/Port-LRT-STREETCAR agency. This would take the train set away from JTA, and properly hand it to the city for operations leaving JTA in a joint planning command.
JAXPORT BTW, is the FIRST US PORT as one rounds the straits of Florida (Florida Keys) and heads north that has direct railroad access to the WEST and MIDWEST, including dedicated high priority trains, containers, TOFC, ROAD-RAILERS, Unit trains, etc... to all points. Try that trick with an offload in Miami, or Tampa. Any ship with cargo for both points north/northwest and west would do better at Jaxport then MIAMI, TAMPA and arguably NEW ORLEANS, PENSACOLA, HOUSTON, MOBILE ETC...
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteMiami/Port of Everglades would be the first port of call such boats can offload, but Jacksonville has inherent logistics advantages Miami does not... and direct to rail capabilities enhances this logistics advantage. Otherwise, these same over-the-land advantages Jacksonville has are now being better utilized by Savannah and NYC. Without such rail offloading capability, massive amounts of gross tonage could literally sail right by Jacksonville. If such cargo ends up in Savannah, they actually could still pass through Jacksonville by land and we essentially waste massive amounts of port revenue
Equals...
QuoteJAXPORT BTW, is the FIRST US PORT as one rounds the straits of Florida (Florida Keys) and heads north that has direct railroad access to the WEST and MIDWEST, including dedicated high priority trains, containers, TOFC, ROAD-RAILERS, Unit trains, etc... to all points. Try that trick with an offload in Miami, or Tampa. Any ship with cargo for both points north/northwest and west would do better at Jaxport then MIAMI, TAMPA and arguably NEW ORLEANS, PENSACOLA, HOUSTON, MOBILE ETC...
There you go Cooley... the ole' rail rider Ock explains it better than I :)
QuoteGood call fieldafm, I'll toss in a full time "Jacksonville Railroad Authority," that might start as a one-person representative between City-Railroads and JTA-FDOT, then grow into a fully operational commuter rail-Freight/Port-LRT-STREETCAR agency. This would take the train set away from JTA, and properly hand it to the city for operations leaving JTA in a joint planning command.
There's a gentleman in Clay County running for commisioner(cant recall his name) that is advocating for a regional transportation strategy... Im starting to warm to the idea of a deicated regional rail transit organization.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 26, 2010, 08:45:17 PM
^Bad news for Jax. Miami and FEC won a federal TIGER 2 grant last week to reactivate a 4 mile rail line and to construct a rail intermodal facility at their port. We have an article in que about this and a few other Florida projects.
I have other bad news for Jax on the rail/shipping front.
The City of Charleston has signed a deal with CSX to redevelop the old Charleston Navy Yard into a international intermodal shipping terminal. At the moment the Port of Charleston is mostly a ship to truck terminal due to the poor proximity of the CSX and NS yards. With this agreement, the POC can now take in direct to rail intermodals coming through the new Panama Canal in 2014.
This will provide CSX a direct route to get intermodals to Atlanta with little congestion and to national switching capacity.
While it is believed that this port will mostly serve discretionary traffic (shippers seeking delivery based on costs/timing), CSX believes that there is enough traffic forecast through this port going forward to justify the investment.
(Source: Trains Nov. 2010)The "bad" for Jax in this case is that it removes one of the competitive disadvantages POC had when trying to attract shippers away from deep ports. But it also makes its clear as we get closer to 2014 that the pressure get the "deals done" with JaxPort have to be growing, especially on the rail side.
A message to JaxPort, CSX and FDOT, what's up?
It just pains the hell out of me, since this discussion was on JOL several years ago! No rail connection but 9A was going to be upgraded and with the projected truck/container traffic, that original study showed 9A would have to be rebuilt again within 3 to 5 years...............taxpayers will be footing the bill for both times! Damn it man and here we go again! So much for the highly paid Jaxport administrators and look where we are now? OK ignore my rant......rail is a prerequisite for any port and container traffic should be for local dispatch only......within 100 mile radius..........anything beyond that should be railed to the closest hub and trucked from there! With the current City record of transparency,efficiency and accountability.......any agency tagged for that mandate needs to be separate!
Quote from: fieldafm on October 26, 2010, 09:33:33 PM
QuoteGood call fieldafm, I'll toss in a full time "Jacksonville Railroad Authority," that might start as a one-person representative between City-Railroads and JTA-FDOT, then grow into a fully operational commuter rail-Freight/Port-LRT-STREETCAR agency. This would take the train set away from JTA, and properly hand it to the city for operations leaving JTA in a joint planning command.
There's a gentleman in Clay County running for commisioner(cant recall his name) that is advocating for a regional transportation strategy... Im starting to warm to the idea of a deicated regional rail transit organization.
I would assume that is Doug Conkey...who is chair of the TPO....
btw, the idea is in process...and the Regional Transportation Study Commission will be getting started very soon
Quote from: fieldafm on October 26, 2010, 09:33:33 PM
QuoteGood call fieldafm, I'll toss in a full time "Jacksonville Railroad Authority," that might start as a one-person representative between City-Railroads and JTA-FDOT, then grow into a fully operational commuter rail-Freight/Port-LRT-STREETCAR agency. This would take the train set away from JTA, and properly hand it to the city for operations leaving JTA in a joint planning command.
There's a gentleman in Clay County running for commisioner(cant recall his name) that is advocating for a regional transportation strategy... Im starting to warm to the idea of a deicated regional rail transit organization.
Perhaps we can hunt him down and capture him! It would be cool perhaps, You, Lake, Commissioner-X, Myself and any other interested party's could start some brainstorming. I think that FSUJAX guy and maybe TUFSU, STEPHENDARE and ??
On the container front FEC is down for MUCH improvement, which boggles the mind as most railroaders know they have the best plant perhaps in all of the America's... (Well personally there is this 3' gauge stretch from PUERTO BERRIO TO SANTA MARTA Colombia... but I'll let that slide...") FEC is going to rebuild the Signal system AGAIN...
JACKSONVILLE needs a pow-wow with CSX on WHY THE HOME TEAM left us off the national corridor projects... YEAH, WE ALL KNOW WHY (read the damn thread) but it shouldn't be. So let's play dumb, Play catch-up, play beg, play borrow, play straight, play-dirty, cancel the Court House in it's tracks, kill the freaking freeway, wipe out the DOWNTOWN, GET R' DONE, ...and the play back will be years of unrestrained prosperity, jobs, and a building boom like we haven't seen since "QUEEN OF THE WINTER RESORTS," day's. OCKLAWAHA
Hell Yea
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2167/2040751890_09a2e116ac.jpg)
(http://www.interstate-guide.com/images022/i-022_future_sign.jpg)
(http://www.gribblenation.com/flpics/gallery/i10e-exit225-natsiatka.jpg)
IF we could "MAKE A DEAL" with CSX, oh hell, I don't know, like promise them a mile of riverfront, give away deep tax breaks, etc... and POW-WOW to bring CSX-NS-CSX together for a FLORIDA SUPER DISTRIBUTION "YARD*".
* As you all know I'm no fan of yards, neither are the railroads, cars in yards are racking up rental time and bringing in NOTHING! BUT! Somewhere out in the northwest side, with FEC able to reach it via their NS operating agreements (FEC RUNS THROUGH TO MACON NOW, AND NS RUNS THROUGH TO TITUSVILLE)... consider a modern incarnation of bulk commodities, bulk terminals, TOFC/piggyback, road railer, containers... I'm talking a SUPER FACILITY that would dwarf BAILEY YARD ON THE UP (largest in the USA) designed not to store dead trains, but to roll em in, and right back out faster then any such facility in the world. In short a WORLD PROTOTYPE.
NEXT?
Yes, did you know there is a high power electric tower right-of-way that crosses the ST JOHNS at BLOUNT ISLAND. But these same power lines are where JAXPORT built the 15 mile BLOUNT ISLAND TERMINAL TRACKS...
As we've discussed, the tracks currently stop near Main and 9-A where it joins the CSX.
WHAT IF...?
We continued on, right up and over I-95, into the FREE TRADE ZONE at JIA, which the power lines miss by just a mile or two... CONTINUE on around the Northwest Side of town, to Westlake, the huge NS INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX being developed (sort of all alone ... like in the dark... HELLO CITY I LOVE-PULL YOUR HEAD OUT) but our happy power lines keep right on going across BEAVER and the CSX - S LINE, and pick up the right-of-way for CECIL FIELD... BINGO! We have just ridden the JACKSONVILLE BELT TERMINAL RAILROAD, a great place for my super yard. BTW Lake, toss in I-22 or the otherwise Florida-Georgia Parkway a direct KC-JAXPORT freeway first proposed back in the early 60's and nearly finished through large chunks of MO, AR, TN, MS, AL, and currently being "BENT" by Savannah as we have dropped off the radar... yet GA IS building 4 lane limited access from COLUMBUS-ALBANY-VALDOSTA... I'd like to see us revive it and BEND IT BACK!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: fieldafm on October 26, 2010, 09:33:33 PM
QuoteGood call fieldafm, I'll toss in a full time "Jacksonville Railroad Authority," that might start as a one-person representative between City-Railroads and JTA-FDOT, then grow into a fully operational commuter rail-Freight/Port-LRT-STREETCAR agency. This would take the train set away from JTA, and properly hand it to the city for operations leaving JTA in a joint planning command.
There's a gentleman in Clay County running for commisioner(cant recall his name) that is advocating for a regional transportation strategy... Im starting to warm to the idea of a deicated regional rail transit organization.
Larry Williams.