so how can we stop JTA from moving forward with it?
I don't think everyone is opposed to BRT....in fact, many of us on this site think it is a good idea for certain corridors.
The issue is where BRT is competing with potential rail service...and I think JTA is hearing that message....stay tuned!
BRT stinks as programed for where it is planned to be installed tufsu..............Philips ain't it dude & I will be staying tuned.......the bovinve idiots!
I have been a BRT basher but I know there are corridors where a no frills BRT would be good. I would just like to see streetcar, commuter rail and enhanced Amtrak at the Jacksonville Terminal first.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/05/article-1052712-0288D2FE00000578-214_468x286.jpg)
Exactly TU! Put BRT next to rail, Skyway or Streetcar and I'll spew more venom then a Tiger Snake on speed... Use it to compliment rail, Skyway or Streetcar and I'm as happy as a Brazilian Wandering Spider in a bunch of bananas... still lethal but content.
OCKLAWAHA
IMO, I think LRT because the fact that it spurs development and lets face it, its amusing to ride rail, but I feel as if LRT is not needed at the moment, seeing that we have a somewhat low ridership number. I think LRT should be implemented in an area that has high ridership so that it could be fully utilized. Eventually, I think LRT should be established, just not now. To me JTA should start out with a streetcar plan, so that it brings DT development, which indeed would bring companies to DT, which obviously means that people will be going working and going DT, and that it doesnt seem to be all that expensive. Then the commuter rail. Their feasibility studies show that people WOULD utilize the commuter rail, so why not try to proceed with the commuter rail ASAP. Obviously, JTA should realize A lot of people riding = More money for them! Then proceed with the LRT for just J-ville (because of a shorter commute to work) which would be sort of like a subway system, linking neighborhoods to DT and to other areas at a reasonably amount of time .
Update 11/6/10: I was thinking that BRT would be more beneficial (despite the cost), because the fact that it isnt on a fixed route, but realized, thats the reason LRT would be better, because it is on a fixed route which means no chainging routes unexpectedly. However, some of y'all didnt know that I have always liked LRT better (many reasons that are pretty obvious), but at the time I posted this message, I thought that BRT was better for our city, but I will always believe a streetcar should be implemented first
BRT is nothing more than reliable bus service. There's no reason a couple of our existing routes can't be operated as BRT today. Although I sound like a BRT basher at times, I do think in select corridors it makes sense. However, people do it a disservice when they attempt to compare it with rail and try to sell people on the idea that they'll bring the same thing. That's like saying my jump shot is as good as Jordan's or my arm is better than Marino's, so sign me up instead since I'll be cheaper. My largest issue with these silly comparisons is the fact that rail spurs transit friendly development and BRT doesn't. Thus debate ceases when sustainability and development become top priorities. Nevertheless, instead of it being either or, these modes (and others) should be complementing instead of competing with each other to reach as much of the local population as possible.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 09:31:21 PM
BRT is nothing more than reliable bus service. There's no reason a couple of our existing routes can't be operated as BRT today. Although I sound like a BRT basher at times, I do think in select corridors it makes sense. However, people do it a disservice when they attempt to compare it with rail and try to sell people on the idea that they'll bring the same thing. That's like saying my jump shot is as good as Jordan's or my arm is better than Marino's, so sign me up instead since I'll be cheaper. My largest issue with these silly comparisons is the fact that rail spurs transit friendly development and BRT doesn't. Thus debate ceases when sustainability and development become top priorities. Nevertheless, instead of it being either or, these modes (and others) should be complementing instead of competing with each other to reach as much of the local population as possible.
I agree 1000%.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 20, 2010, 07:28:39 PM
I don't think everyone is opposed to BRT....in fact, many of us on this site think it is a good idea for certain corridors.
The issue is where BRT is competing with potential rail service...and I think JTA is hearing that message....stay tuned!
I really hope they are hearing that message!
They're definitely hearing and reading it. They keep up with what's being talked about on MJ. Let's just hope they end up agreeing and doing the right thing.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 10:02:54 PM
They're definitely hearing and reading it. They keep up with what's being talked about on MJ. Let's just hope they end up agreeing and doing the right thing.
Hopefully. Jacksonville is a big city, so JTA cannot afford to mess up! I have hope that JTA can help make our transportation needs well above satisfactory, if they just listen to us (the customers)!
Quote from: arb on October 20, 2010, 09:06:33 PM
IMO, I think BRT would be more beneficial to our city than LRT (despite the cost!), because the fact that BRT isn't on a fixed route, but I feel as if BRT is not needed at the moment, seeing that we have a somewhat low ridership number. I think BRT should be implemented in an area that has high ridership so that it could be fully utilized.
arb, your argument completely loses me when you state BRT would be more beneficial to Jacksonville then LRT? How did you arrive at that conclusion? The fact that it ISN'T a fixed route is exactly why it cannot perform as well or promote economy changing development. Given limited resources, scarce parking and accompanying parking space requirements on new high rises, no company in their right mind will develop anything alongside a mass transit route that still echo's that 1930's era bus sales slogan "FLEXIBLE". Once you plop down 3/4 of a Billion dollars for a new high rise, the last thing you want is to get blindsided by hidden parking requirements or find out that JTA has decided your BRT route is going to be "flexed" 4 blocks down the street from your new front door. It is exactly these circumstances that have caused the LIGHT RAIL REVIVAL. The quarterly or semi-annual bus route adjustments, along with the resulting uncertainties and dwindling ridership have come back to bite the "FLEXIBLE" bus industry in the butt.
Finally, dense neighborhood or no, LIGHT RAIL is now averaging $14.00 returned in new development for every dollar invested in the system. Light Rail is the new welcome wagon for the corporate community.
Lastly, you mention a wish to hold off on Light Rail but to build Streetcar's first? Strange as this might seem Streetcars are the lightest form of LIGHT RAIL! The pedigree would even include mine trams, aerial cable ropeways, subways, elevated, cable cars, monorails and something called "light railways". It does get confusing but just as all bugs are insects and not all insects are bugs, likewise, all streetcars are light rail but not all light rail systems are streetcars.
To further the discussion here, did y'all know that Houston has had incredible successful experiments with marking the routes of BRT, LRT or quality buses with simple in pavement LED lighting? Is JTA paying attention?OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r371423_1724057.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 09:31:21 PM
BRT is nothing more than reliable bus service.
I disagree. BRT can be more then Quality Bus, or reliable bus service, in fact it can be MUCH MORE. The spur in the saddle is that to achieve such a "SUPERBUS" status, the costs can easily surpass any rail system on earth and thus negate the very reasons for going with BRT in the first place.
Bogota's incredible far flung system is far from a fancy bus on a dependable schedule, but they have been put to shame with what Medellin spent on a much higher class/volume rail system. Bogota's super bus has failed to keep up and today the city is busting the sod on building it's own rail system, while selling it's BRT to sucker cities like Jacksonville.
Curitiba's BRT blows away anybody's wildest dreams of what BRT can be, but at an average speed of 12 MPH, they too are now building the Curitiba Metro Rail.
BRT is also "something else" in Cleveland, where state, local and federal government buildings bracked the Health Line with lots of infill as an "example" of what BRT can attract... Sadly Mickey-D's is the only private game to drink the cool aid.
Shall we mention Boston's BIG DIG project? Did you know super-bus-BRT was a huge part of it? Yep! But with a cost of over a BILLION dollars, who want's to mention these economics??
Australia has mocked our US BRT efforts as so poorly funded that the "Yanks" will never have REAL BRT. But AU has spent so much on it's bus bahn to prove a rubber tired point, that they could have duplicated the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad...OCKLAWAHA
^How about this? The form of BRT JTA is proposing is nothing more than reliable bus service. The stuff you're talking about and showing in that image above would cost them just as much (or more) as LRT to construct.
Reilable bus service huh.....lake? I would believe it when I see it! Current bus system flucuates headway wise, a massive lack of shelters and lets not forget those adjustable schedules every 3 or 4 months..........if this is the best they can do...........prove it...........ride the bus for a month to get to JTA Headquarters......oh wait, that will require reshuffling the bus schedules again to do that! A lousy way to treat the paying public!
You guys should check out the TIGER II grant Orlando just won to extend the LYMMO BRT 1.9 miles into Parramore. $106 million to extend a dedicated busway line 1.9 miles? Completely ridiculous.
http://www.dot.gov/recovery/ost/tigerii/tiger2grantinfo.pdf (page 32)
You could build a no frills streetcar system connecting Downtown with Riverside and Springfield for less.
BINGO arb!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock is mean LOL, but to be honest Ock, I did my hw and realized that LRT is the way to go. Nice now? :)