Not crazy about the idea myself. Why not cluster everything at the proposed JTC and connect to the airport with commuter rail, as currently proposed?
QuoteBut even though high-speed rail is at least a decade away, Thibault said the city should start thinking about where the Jacksonville station will go, and what it will look like.
Orlando, Tampa and Miami all have planned multi-modal stations that will offer bus service, car rentals and access to current or future commuter rail lines, and Jacksonville needs to do something similar, he said.
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority's plans turn the Prime Osborn Convention Center into a bus and rail hub that could serve high-speed rail, along with bus service and commuter rail. JTA has yet to get the money for it.
Jeff Sheffield, executive director of the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization, which does long-term transportation planning for the area, said the convention center isn't essential because Jacksonville International Airport is another option.
"I think there needs to be a connection to the airport for this to work," Sheffield said, pointing out that the multi-modal hubs in Orlando and Miami will be at the airports. (Tampa's station will be in the downtown area, not far from its airport.)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-10-19/story/jacksonville-told-prepare-high-speed-rail
Your correct lake! Why not cluster everything at the proposed JTC and connect to the airport with commuter rail? Could it be............because "Rail" has entered into the transit equation and JTA is duty bound to discourge those thoughts? BRT is just as good as rail and cheaper.....right?
It is because we can not get the damn convention center out of the Jacksonville Terminal. IMO the number one reason we need a new convention center is to get it the hell out of the way. our entire multi-modal hub should be in the terminal not some campus set up with other modes only connected at the airport.
The general plan is for high speed rail to follow the interstates through Florida...so accessing the Prime Osborn area from I-95 would be very easy....and since Amtrak will (hopefully) be going there, it does make the most sense.
That said, one of the main reasons for doing high speed rail is to minimize air travel for trips less than 300 or so miles...so I support downtown as the station but there already is and will be a need for better transit connectivity to the airport....
Commuter rail should take care of this. This article and Jeff Sheffield's quote makes it seem as though it's not proposed.
I hope he's not really saying the principal station would be at the airport. Putting a secondary station at the airport would be brilliant. I recall flying to Frankfurt and hopping on a deluxe train from there in a gorgeous new airport station.
Assuming an FEC route, people could fly to JIA and then transfer by hsr to St. Augustine, Daytona, Melbourne, etc. The increases in volume would make it economically feasible to have more flights to more places, which will make the airport more useful, provide jobs, useful growth, and tourist revenue (maybe).
I've often thought JIA could position itself as a low-fare entry point for Canadians and Europeans heading to Florida. With a high-speed rail :) terminal at the airport that could happen.
In the interim we need to get our commuter lines going and Streetcar extensively implemented.
So we could potentially have a HSR line coming from Orlando, up I-95 from South Fla, going North along the eastern Seaboard, and going NW to ATL?? That looks like a great opportunity for us. Let's get moving.
I think our only option is to restore Jacksonville Regional Terminal to its former glory. at least 10 tracks going in and out. Move the Park Street Viaduct already!
The first feasibility study of Atlanta, Macon to Jacksonville should be getting underway shortly. Jacksonville at this point is included in the SEHSR plan, the state of Florida has no money set aside to do the necessary studies to define the Orlando to Jacksonville HSR corridor, hopefully this will change shortly. I believe all trains coming and going through Jacksonville should stop at Jacksonville Terminal.
While no rail infrastructure exists at JIA, I can understand any planners desire to utilize the resources that JIA already provides.
- Security
- Parking
- Car Rental franchises
- General Terminal for transfer (with amenities)
Granted this solution would still need some form of access to downtown, it is not altogether impossible to provide that. (if you don't want to drive)
London's Heathrow, while a significant distance from central London, provides a wonderful "Heathrow Express" which uses common rail infrastructure but uses HSR formats to get travelers from the airport to downtown in 12 minutes to Paddington Station. (40 minutes by cab) You can then transfer over to a train to Birmingham, Scotland, Eurostar and even the Tube. Amenities include onboard TV, WiFi and graphical maps show your progress.
Since you can walk down direct from the airport terminal, there is no security to pass to get on, just purchase your tix at a kiosk. (There is security to get back in the terminal)
Having the same format for a JIA/Jax Terminal link would make sense in design, but perhaps not in volume. Not sure if downtown has enough business volumes to justify it. Also the airlines (who help pay for the airport through gate rentals and fees) may not like a rail interloper on their territory.
But it would provide a great recircular for downtown/JIA linkage with any airport based interstate HSR.
I always felt that having a HSR linkage through airports would bring down airfares as travelers could shop a fare to Jax as part of a HSR trip to Disney. It also help abate the issue of air congestion or poor weather as rail typically doesn't have those constraints.
JIA was not designed with a rail option in mind! You can only build on the south or east side anyway, runways don't like trains running on them.......neither do aircraft. You still have to drop south to pick up trackage to move west if I remember correctly unless your plannin on going north, then that route is pretty easy to access! So, IMHO, you will end up with a bastardized system........something like a subway car running to the airport from whatever main hub we end up with ....but true HSR, I think not!
Whenever HSR comes to DT Jax, the airport would be connected into the transit network. It seems like this whole discussion completely ignores local transit plans already being considered in town.
Quote from: fsujax on October 20, 2010, 10:09:09 AM
The first feasibility study of Atlanta, Macon to Jacksonville should be getting underway shortly. Jacksonville at this point is included in the SEHSR plan, the state of Florida has no money set aside to do the necessary studies to define the Orlando to Jacksonville HSR corridor, hopefully this will change shortly. I believe all trains coming and going through Jacksonville should stop at Jacksonville Terminal.
How stupid is this? The administration has decreed that ANY train moving at 90+ mph is magically HIGH SPEED RAIL. This is incredible when the Plant System BEFORE the ACL ran between Savannah and JACKSONVILLE at 126 mph. More? Chief, Broadway Limited, 20Th Century Limited, Hiawatha, Panama Limited, Zephyr, etc... all covered the ground at speeds MUCH faster then the "new" high speed rail rules.
Now suddenly every planner, sidewalk supervisor, or foamer on the block is planning for these unheard of "super trains."
The Florida concept of turning our airports into the railroad terminals of the future, rather then connections via mass transit is also going to fail us. Anyone who has traveled by rail at home or abroad can tell you that the single strongest cards that passenger trains hold over air travel is their downtown to downtown abilities. Corridor trains (many traveling distances not unlike the length or width of Florida) can beat airline schedules because rail passengers generally;
* Board downtown
* Arrive downtown
* Avoid time consuming security checks
* Avoid parking hassles
* Avoid traffic on the often long airport roads/FREEways
* Avoid high parking fees
* Dodge car rental fees
Leave it to FLORIDA to figure out a way to wipe away the rail advantage because most of it's officialdom couldn't locate the dining car in a two car train. OCKLAWAHA
Very interesting topic.....
One would hope that Florida actually understands the whatever we plan should be a small part of a national rail network. From what I've seen so far, the majority of everyone else's plans has HSR connecting city center to city center. From that point, one would transfer to another mode of transit to access other areas and destinations within those towns.
well, luckily the TPO does not have the final say on where the station goes.
I am somewhat confused with the direction the general line of thought is taking! HSR is going into the Orlando & St Pete area with several stops along the way........one of which is Ratville! Lakeland still has not designated its stop, since the GOB Network is busy duking it out on who gets their way (along with the money)! Next phase is supposed to be to Miami (funds not yet designated or spoken for) and now the general thought is Prime Osburn to be come what it was in the past! People, what is being touted as HSR, is not the same animal by any stretch of the imagination.......true HSR will take dedicated trackage that is beyond what normal rail runs on ...right? We appear to have various factions spouting this and spouting that and no dedicated view of just what is needed for now and 20 years + down range. Now I am all for rail but we are talking about 2 completely different systems , with two different requirements......one is fairly low speed and the other high speed and by high I mean something 150 mph+! That's something that is good for 3 to 300 miles out from a hub. Has anything come out the Florida Rail Commission, Delaney and Co about anything?
If the station gets put at the airport, would you have to go through security to get on a train?? It sounds like the state is just creating new, slow moving, low flying planes. Same wait times, same hassles, same ridiculousness as before.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 21, 2010, 02:20:50 PM
If the station gets put at the airport, would you have to go through security to get on a train??
I highly doubt it....commuter/local trains go into many airports today and HSR is planned for ORL (MCO) and MIA...all are outside the terminals
Yea, I don't understand this much either. I don't see this big group of people jumping on high-speed trains to go to an airport in a different city. What a way to kill a local economy by offering people a high speed train to go directly to Orlando's airport form Jacksonville.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 21, 2010, 12:25:24 PM
One would hope that Florida actually understands the whatever we plan should be a small part of a national rail network. From what I've seen so far, the majority of everyone else's plans has HSR connecting city center to city center. From that point, one would transfer to another mode of transit to access other areas and destinations within those towns.
Personally I think HSR should use the city core. It is one of its biggest advantages.
I was only pondering the thought of using airport infrastructure in Jax since Mr. FDOT mentioned it.
However, without trying to hijack the thread, it will only take one train "event" and you will see a 9/11 security response on rail shortly after. So any rail superiority over air would be lost.
The most tragic part of all of this is that it looks like we could end up with a system that will make Wendell Cox seem like he was holding back...
I believe that Jacksonville Terminal will be the designated HSR stop in Jacksonville. Stay tuned.
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 21, 2010, 12:24:25 PM
Very interesting topic.....
You are RIGHT Coolyfett, that's probably why it vanished from the boards...
Oh well... Just wait until the new law moving all toilets to the city sewer plant goes into effect to prove how well this is going to work. Imagine, all toilets in one place, like the Roman's it will become a social event. We'll have crowd control, and you can GO from seat to seat with ease. OCKLAWAHA
Yeah, well, how are you going to plan for security when just about everyone there will be trying to drop a bomb?
Pardon me for being a little naughty, but all of this talk is turning me on. I am so excited about HSR for Florida (of course with the exception of the buffoons can get their bobbling heads straight to plan and execute this correctly).
Make me want to go HSR-Surfing.
See the Youtube Link -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZvm5H4F-aA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZvm5H4F-aA)
-Josh