Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:32:21 PM
The CTA was mismanaged and failed on every front including a substantial fare hike in conjunction with massive service cuts that were documented in the paper DAILY. We discussed it at the water cooler and waiting on the platforms. And yet, we still rode anyway, knowing there was corruption, incompetence and general stupidity. Tourists and businessmen still took it because it was a viable option and was ubiquitous, even with the cuts. The passengers saw a tangible benefit taking transit over driving. Where is this being promoted in Jax?
But that's only because, at the end of the day, they had a working system. They at least got the job done, and while people may be upset at backroom-dealing, executives who do nothing but feather their own nests, and corrupt bargains, at the end of the day CTA gets people where they need to go.
With JTA, what you have is all of the B.S. and none of the benefit. Not only do they engage in everything that you found distasteful about CTA, but they don't even bother to have a working public transit system before doing it. We have the worst of all worlds.
Looks like to me, that management is doing their best to keep their jobs! Of course............is there any other way?
The common tune I have detected in these threads is "JTA isn't how *I* want it".
JTA works. If it didn't work, the 10-12K riders wouldn't use it. It has worked well enough to get me to and from 3 interviews this week, bus and skyway at that! This can't be a build it and they will come mentality. There ARE existing convenience routes (trolley, BH1, etc) that aren't being used enough. How do we get people on THOSE routes before we talk about getting them on light rail from Nassau to St. John's county.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
The common tune I have detected in these threads is "JTA isn't how *I* want it".
JTA works. If it didn't work, the 10-12K riders wouldn't use it. It has worked well enough to get me to and from 3 interviews this week, bus and skyway at that! This can't be a build it and they will come mentality. There ARE existing convenience routes (trolley, BH1, etc) that aren't being used enough. How do we get people on THOSE routes before we talk about getting them on light rail from Nassau to St. John's county.
That's asinine.
JTA doesn't "work" in any sense at all. Yes, 10k-12k ride JTA in an area that has 1.3mm residents.
Is that really your definition of "success"? If a business loses money and only 2% of the people use it, that's "success"?
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
This can't be a build it and they will come mentality.
And that's about the silliest thing I've ever heard.
So then, what happened when buses and streetcars were originally introduced? There couldn't have been any riders before that, since the routes didn't exist to ride before their introduction. So by your logic, how come anyone is riding public transit anywhere now? According to that thinking, nobody would be riding public transit anywhere, would they? Because without a route existing first, how could anyone ride it?
I made no point about JTA being a success.
I can paint a house with a basting brush (works) or I can buy a top of the line paint sprayer that does it in a fraction of the time (works, with efficiency). I can also consider the third option of buying some rollers and paint trays (also works, and is still more efficient than the basting brush). The problem in all of these scenarios? NO ONE WANTS THE HOUSE PAINTED! Except the four people who live inside and the one guy who likes to take up these issues on behalf of the little guy.
One more analogy before I head off to another interview (my 2nd JTA trip of the day, BTW)...and this is a true story.
My daughter wanted a swank camera for her birthday. I told her she had one she never uses. She said she doesn't like that one, it has Hello Kitty on it and she lost the cord. I told her I would buy her a cord. But it's still ugly she said. I told her if she shows interest in something she already has, I might consider buying her a new camera for Christmas.
Chris, we aren't talking about implementing a system that never existed prior to today. We are talking about making use of an existing system in order to have it improved.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 01:02:46 PM
I made no point about JTA being a success.
Sure you did;
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
JTA works. If it didn't work, the 10-12K riders wouldn't use it.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 01:05:19 PM
Chris, we aren't talking about implementing a system that never existed prior to today. We are talking about making use of an existing system in order to have it improved.
Really? Because I was simply responding to the nonsensical logic that you wrote in your words;
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
This can't be a build it and they will come mentality.
As a side note, since this is the second time in 2 pages you've made me go back and quote you, the fact is that you really can't say one thing, then another, then deny you said the first thing, on a message board. All people have to do is quote what you wrote, and the whole exercise makes everyone look silly.
You clearly said that with transit you can't have "build it and they will come" mentality. Those were your own words. That's asinine, as I've already pointed out, since public transit is one of the few things where indeed you MUST build it before you will have riders, as there is nothing to ride until it is built.
You have everything backwards I'm afraid. The reason JTA doesn't work is because it isn't constructed properly. It is fallacious logic to say that you cannot now construct it properly because it doesn't work. However, that was exactly your point.
Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2010, 01:05:50 PM
so your daughter isnt using the camera she already has, and this relates to Jacksonvillle's appalling failure with transit how?
Should we teach those dirty commuters a valuable lesson by witholding better transit until they learn their lesson?
Hate to tell you this, Singe, but you now qualify to sit on the present JTA board!
Just take a copy of this conversation down to the HQ on Myrtle. Your employment search is over!
You beat me to it, I was just thinking that with logic like this a job at JTA would be a perfect fit.
Congratulations chris and stephen. I guess you guys won and scared off singe and tufsu from this conversation with you typical bullying and condescending and insulting remarks. Good for you guys.
Thanks for the tip stephen. And the winks. I love it when you wink at me.
I think part of what singe was trying to comment on is the issue of marketing and community awareness. Unless you actually try to use our current crappy system you would have no idea where it goes or how it works. Unless forced... few of us will ever take the time or effort to figure it out. Even seasoned riders such as Stephen have difficulty with cryptic signage. A little public outreach might go a long way towards boosting usage.
Quote from: Live_Oak on October 14, 2010, 01:58:15 PM
Congratulations chris and stephen. I guess you guys won and scared off singe and tufsu from this conversation with you typical bullying and condescending and insulting remarks. Good for you guys.
LMAO! Unlike JTA's buses, Tufsu's shill is right on schedule! Now we know you don't take the bus to work!
I literally had just gotten done laughing about when you were going to show up, as you always do whenever Tufsu's figures are challenged, when you posted in this thread. Like something out of a movie.
Please tell me when I'm allowed to post and on which topics. I would like to post on more but can't hang out on this board 24/7 as others do. Well, really just stephen.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
I think part of what singe was trying to comment on is the issue of marketing and community awareness. Unless you actually try to use our current crappy system you would have no idea where it goes or how it works. Unless forced... few of us will ever take the time or effort to figure it out. Even seasoned riders such as Stephen have difficulty with cryptic signage. A little public outreach might go a long way towards boosting usage.
Well yes, it's certainly a catch-22 isn't it?
The reason nobody rides it is because it's horribly broken. It creates this paradox of being forced to acknowledge that it's not broken before it can be fixed.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 14, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
I think part of what singe was trying to comment on is the issue of marketing and community awareness. Unless you actually try to use our current crappy system you would have no idea where it goes or how it works. Unless forced... few of us will ever take the time or effort to figure it out. Even seasoned riders such as Stephen have difficulty with cryptic signage. A little public outreach might go a long way towards boosting usage.
Well yes, it's certainly a catch-22 isn't it?
The reason nobody rides it is because it's horribly broken. It creates this paradox of being forced to acknowledge that it's not broken before it can be fixed.
Truth be told... I only "know" what I have read here and word of mouth regarding its "horribly broken" state. A smart ad campaign/public awarenesss effort might put a few more people in the seats who would not otherwise give it a second thought. Targeting teens might be a good start. I have been in plenty cities with TV/radio spots and billboards selling the system.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:38:37 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 14, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
I think part of what singe was trying to comment on is the issue of marketing and community awareness. Unless you actually try to use our current crappy system you would have no idea where it goes or how it works. Unless forced... few of us will ever take the time or effort to figure it out. Even seasoned riders such as Stephen have difficulty with cryptic signage. A little public outreach might go a long way towards boosting usage.
Well yes, it's certainly a catch-22 isn't it?
The reason nobody rides it is because it's horribly broken. It creates this paradox of being forced to acknowledge that it's not broken before it can be fixed.
Truth be told... I only "know" what I have read here and word of mouth regarding its "horribly broken" state. A smart ad campaign/public awarenesss effort might put a few more people in the seats who would not otherwise give it a second thought. Targeting teens might be a good start. I have been in plenty cities with TV/radio spots and billboards selling the system.
Well why don't you give it a shot? Instead of taking the car to work tomorrow, why not take the bus?
Just leave verrrrrrrrrrry early.
Thanks Chris... I appreciate your always positive feedback. :)
Quote from: Live_Oak on October 14, 2010, 02:26:10 PM
Please tell me when I'm allowed to post and on which topics. I would like to post on more but can't hang out on this board 24/7 as others do. Well, really just stephen.
Live_Oak....I grant you full permission to post on topics I am not engaged in ;)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:45:50 PM
Thanks Chris... I appreciate your always positive feedback. :)
No, really, I wasn't being sarcastic or anything.
I don't think many people realize how FUBAR it all is until you actually try to ride the bus.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 14, 2010, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:45:50 PM
Thanks Chris... I appreciate your always positive feedback. :)
No, really, I wasn't being sarcastic or anything.
I don't think many people realize how FUBAR it all is until you actually try to ride the bus.
That is sort of the point. New arrivals to Jax or long time residents "know" a few things. Downtown sucks, JTA sucks, etc... without ever really giving them a chance. A smart ad campaign emphasizing "being green"(I hear that is popular) and targeting teens and students might increase awareness of the system and increase ridership... at least among that demographic.
Thank you BridgeTroll! From now on I will have you translate for me, because apparently that seems to help!
On my way home, as I was reading on the bus, I came across a line that seemed a perfect fit for our issue with JTA. Here me out. BridgeTroll, please stand by to translate:
"However, by putting a limit sign in front of a series, you separate the process from the goal." (Zero: A Biography of a Dangerous Idea, page 129)
Applied to this situation: we seem to only focus on articulating how badly we are missing the goal of a successful (not just working) JTA, and have no concern for the process needed to achieve said goal and there is no consensus on how far we are willing to go in order to fix transit.
For me, the process HAS to include a community outreach program that gets people on-board the system before it's finished, and a full analysis of the different transit systems that would be viable in Jax (I know, many have been done, I'd like them put together for honest comparison).
The limit to fixing the system is the bigger issue. What has been proposed elsewhere, in this thread/board/ether, is a MASSIVE overhaul of the transit system for light rail, streetcars, community shuttles, express buses, human-powered inline bubble bikes, teleportation devices and everything else under the sun. I'm not saying we shouldn't dream big on this. Indeed we should; however, before we line up behind any of those proposals, we need to know how much the community is willing to pay. Not only in financial terms, but in the sacrifice to current users endured during an "in-progress" transformation; in tearing up the roads for YEARS for another project; in changing the mindset of an apathetic community that maybe 20 minutes extra during your commute IS worth it.
Singejoufflue.........I do agree with the gist of your post, but have to point out there is a better way,IMHO, by just making use of what we have and making it not only efficient but user friendly! Lots we could do without having any increase in the financial end of things, but at some point that would have to be considered! Get the simple bus's we have going on a proper schedule, with decent headways and routed where they could actually be used for what they are designed for! Stop inane rescheduling and route changing, keep it simple and yeah....how about some simple shelters to go with that! BRT is a waste in its current proposed form!
CS, I agree with making the current system more user-friendly, that is a priority regardless to the end game. But, is a mere retooling of what we have going far enough? Is that the right answer for Jax? A few buses with improved routes and better signage? I say there needs to be a comprehensive change in the leadership, vision, communication, and function at JTA.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 14, 2010, 06:35:49 PM
I say there needs to be a comprehensive change in the leadership, vision, communication, and function at JTA.
Can't argue in rebutal to that, since I agree! But to gut down to the bear bones, might not be cost efficient! I am more concerned about doing something correctly with what we have! Proper routes, that don't change just for looks! Routes that are layed out with proper headways and in an area that looks to use Bus as their primary mode of transportation! Spine and feeder system should apply to bus as well as rail, but we don't use what we have correctly! We lack shelters, a basic minimum, we surely lack an Administration that makes use of what we have now...............if they can not change their mindset and cater to the public, then I am all for pulling all of their plugs and starting over!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 14, 2010, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2010, 02:45:50 PM
Thanks Chris... I appreciate your always positive feedback. :)
No, really, I wasn't being sarcastic or anything.
I don't think many people realize how FUBAR it all is until you actually try to ride the bus.
That is sort of the point. New arrivals to Jax or long time residents "know" a few things. Downtown sucks, JTA sucks, etc... without ever really giving them a chance. A smart ad campaign emphasizing "being green"(I hear that is popular) and targeting teens and students might increase awareness of the system and increase ridership... at least among that demographic.
That's bad business, IMHO.
You generally get much farther focusing your efforts on delivering a quality product than you would wasting resources on advertising a crappy product. Since JTA can't sell bus service to shopaholic OCD insomniacs at 3am, gimmicky advertising isn't going to help the situation. Everyone in the city is well aware that JTA exists and knows what it does. The reason people don't use JTA is because the product is substandard and more trouble than its worth, not because anyone doesn't know about it.
+1
You can "know" a lot about sex and without ever actually doing it. Experience, partnered with education, a little curiosity and sense of adventure go a long way in transit as well.
We have a system that isn't great. We ALL agree on that. However, what is your solution to improving ridership immediately?
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 15, 2010, 09:20:53 AM
You can "know" a lot about sex and without ever actually doing it. Experience, partnered with education, a little curiosity and sense of adventure go a long way in transit as well.
We have a system that isn't great. We ALL agree on that. However, what is your solution to improving ridership immediately?
First off, I've ridden the bus. It sucks. I know that, and so does everybody else. I have lived in cities with actual working mass transit, as have many others, and we know what the differences are. I'm not a child, and certainly not your child, so please knock it off with this silly crap. You won't get very far automatically assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is uninformed.
And secondly, despite your constant implications that nobody "knows" what they're talking about, you haven't actually bothered to read this site's transit articles and discussions, have you? Because, for the past 3+ years, everyone here including myself has listed idea after idea for improving JTA and public transit in Jacksonville.
So, rather than asking me to retype all of it for you, so that you can pretend we are now being constructive only after you came along and rescued us from ourselves, why not actually do some reading using the search function? There have been at least 3 or 4 front page articles on this site this year alone about transit and JTA, and countless forum discussions. We have already hashed this out countless times. Do your reading.
I didn't see a notice when I created my profile that said, "Read all posts before commenting or ChriswUfGator will wag his finger in shame, look down his nose and not engage you in discussion." From my assessment, MJ is not representative of the city of Jacksonville. This board is incredibly well informed and active; the rest of the city not so much. Using this board as a barometer for what the rest of the city knows is foolhardy at best.
I've done internet research (which is what led me to MJ). I've read posts upon posts. Read JTU articles. I had to look up LRT and BRT and TOD because these were acronyms I never used. I've done the research. Let me sum up what I have seen: Hooray light rail! Boo BRT! Skyway sucks! JTA sucks! Bus drivers suck! Customer service sucks! The leadership sucks! Nobody wants transit! We'll give them transit whether they like it or not!
Clearly the issues at hand when this board started are still present. Perhaps those "solutions" presented to JTA have not been given sufficient consideration or were found to be insufficient in and of themselves. Maybe engaging someone with a different perspective and not one clouded by years of bickering might be beneficial?
Can you talk to me about what you saw and heard at the last JTA meeting you attended when you raised issues and offered all of the solutions you've been presenting these past three years?
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 15, 2010, 10:14:19 AM
I didn't see a notice when I created my profile that said, "Read all posts before commenting or ChriswUfGator will wag his finger in shame, look down his nose and not engage you in discussion." From my assessment, MJ is not representative of the city of Jacksonville. This board is incredibly well informed and active; the rest of the city not so much. Using this board as a barometer for what the rest of the city knows is foolhardy at best.
I've done internet research (which is what led me to MJ). I've read posts upon posts. Read JTU articles. I had to look up LRT and BRT and TOD because these were acronyms I never used. I've done the research. Let me sum up what I have seen: Hooray light rail! Boo BRT! Skyway sucks! JTA sucks! Bus drivers suck! Customer service sucks! The leadership sucks! Nobody wants transit! We'll give them transit whether they like it or not!
Clearly the issues at hand when this board started are still present. Perhaps those "solutions" presented to JTA have not been given sufficient consideration or were found to be insufficient in and of themselves. Maybe engaging someone with a different perspective and not one clouded by years of bickering might be beneficial?
Can you talk to me about what you saw and heard at the last JTA meeting you attended when you raised issues and offered all of the solutions you've been presenting these past three years?
You were the one doing the finger-wagging. And still are. Sorry if pointing it out offends you.
As far as the rest of your post, you really have no idea what you're talking about. You just demonstrated that you haven't read any of the articles that have been posted here at all. Once you have taken the time to educate yourself on this issue, and are prepared to speak to other posters as adults instead of lecturing them like your child, then I'll be happy to resume the debate with you.
Until then, further discussion with you is pointless.
Hold on a sec guys... please.
She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed. From what I read this is not the case. I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness
Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some. Again... from MY perspective she is spot on. It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 15, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
Hold on a sec guys... please.
She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed. From what I read this is not the case. I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness
Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some. Again... from MY perspective she is spot on. It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.
Yes she came in after being here 3 months or less, and began stating that all of us who have been here for decades are wrong about JTA having the problems it does, in the face of actual data that conclusively proves JTA is dead last in ridership out of every city with more than 700k people in the entire united states, and second to last out of every city with more than 500k people.
She then stated that JTA should spend money advertising its service rather than first addressing any of the systemic deficiencies. But everyone already knows what JTA is and what it does. Do you really believe that explains why nobody rides it? And do you believe that spending money on advertising JTA is a wise expenditure, when they are already the only major transit authority that has been unable to afford simple bus shelters for its riders?
She has additionally made all of this nonsensical criticism in a tone and manner that suggests she is talking to a 5 year old child, rather than to reasoned adults. E.g., we're all crybabies because "JTA isn't how 'I' want it." How is that possibly constructive? Meanwhile, back in the real world, she hasn't bothered to read a single article this site has done on JTA and mass transit, or the series comparing it to other cities.
All of that has brought us to this point in the discussion. So what do you do with someone who won't do their homework, and then relishes calling everyone who points this out a crybaby? This is really your definition of constructive?
Yes indeed it would... I myself would expand the public awareness campaign to teens and students. Lets face it... we all know JTA has an image problem (along with the obvious infrastructure problems). This could be looked at as a "chicken and egg type issue. JTA says... "look at the ridership. We would love to improve service but we really cannot justify it because so few actually use it". Mass transit proponents say... " We sure would like a working modern mass transit sytem in place so we could use it."
IMHO... singes suggestion that public outreach is part of the solution is spot on.
Quote from: stephendare on October 15, 2010, 10:43:23 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 15, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
Hold on a sec guys... please.
She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed. From what I read this is not the case. I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness
Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some. Again... from MY perspective she is spot on. It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.
Well lets hear them. What are they? I really am all ears.
So far, the only suggestion that I have heard is that a marketing campaign should be directed at the middle class, and I can agree with that. That would raise awareness.
The problem with that is, as I said before, its bad business. You don't want to advertise a substandard service only to have people try it out, hate it, and make them much less likely to ever give it a shot later. That could have us going in reverse.
I think the first priorities need to be constructing bus shelters, improving on time performance, and revamping the route structure to take into account what routes and destinations are convenient to the ridership, rather than just what's convenient to JTA. That would be a good start. Once these basic improvements are in, maybe then we could advertise.
But advertising at this point is premature, both because the money could be better spent on actual improvements that JTA says it is unable to afford, and because you don't want to attract a new demographic only to piss them off so badly with rude service and a substandard product that they'll never come back.
We need to crawl before we walk. What are the odds that any significant number of middle class people are going to ride JTA in it's present state and be happy enough to continue using the service on a regular basis? After the first time they have to stand in the sun or rain waiting for a bus that's an hour late, deal with an obnoxiously rude driver, have to make a bunch of connections, and in the end realize that it just took them hours to go 5 miles, these folks will never come back. The problems need to be fixed first, IMO, or advertising to new demographics would be at best a waste of money, and quite likely could wind up being harmful longterm.
Quote from: stephendare on October 15, 2010, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 15, 2010, 10:57:13 AM
Yes indeed it would... I myself would expand the public awareness campaign to teens and students. Lets face it... we all know JTA has an image problem (along with the obvious infrastructure problems). This could be looked at as a "chicken and egg type issue. JTA says... "look at the ridership. We would love to improve service but we really cannot justify it because so few actually use it". Mass transit proponents say... " We sure would like a working modern mass transit sytem in place so we could use it."
IMHO... singes suggestion that public outreach is part of the solution is spot on.
have you used jta services, bridge troll---with any regularity for any time recently?
I made a (truly constructive) suggestion that he take the bus to work this morning, so that he could get a handle on what the problems are that we were discussing, and better understand the issues and possible solutions.
I forget what his response was. But did you take the bus BT?
I dunno who is suggesting I am shilling for JTA, but if I am, that check must be lost in the mail. I could use it.
Do I have sufficient credentials to understand the JTA? I lived in Jax from 1986-2004 and returned this summer. I took the bus from my high school job until I had a car. I took the bus to work when my car exploded in 2003. My Grandmother took JTA from 1973 when she moved to Jacksonville until 1992 when my grandfather retired and could drive her. My father and I have discussed transit after he was forced to take JTA for three months himself two years ago. Do my personal observations that people don't understand how to use the system matter (as recently as yesterday when nowhere does it show that you have to transfer lines to get to San Marco)? Do the conversations I've had with friends, strangers and family about their experiences with the system carry any weight?
My suggestions for improvement:
*Marketing campaign to increase immediate ridership. (If people are using the system today service won't be cut at 7pm, as is proposed.)
*Improve communication from JTA to public, including more notice regarding meetings, route changes, how to use the system, more timely and detailed budget documentation.
*Separating transit into a unique agency to ensure appropriate focus.
*Eliminate overlap in routes.
*Increase frequency during peak transit hours.
*Add more "trolley" style buses along shorter main routes that offer discounted fares to encourage convenience rides.
*Increase express routes from outlying neighborhoods and between major hubs/points of interest.
*Monthly and weekly passes that are not specific (based on first date of use for 30 or 7 days).
*Transit cards that provide transfers.
*Online Bus-tracking systems for all new equipment and plan to retrofit existing.
As for attending meetings, I already advised the agency I am working with I am unavailable the afternoon of the 28th in order to attend the meeting.
I posted this yesterday but was ignored:
Quote from: Singejoufflue on Yesterday at 06:13:06 PM
Applied to this situation: we seem to only focus on articulating how badly we are missing the goal of a successful (not just working) JTA, and have no concern for the process needed to achieve said goal and there is no consensus on how far we are willing to go in order to fix transit.
...before we line up behind any of those proposals, we need to know how much the community is willing to pay. Not only in financial terms, but in the sacrifice to current users endured during an "in-progress" transformation; in tearing up the roads for YEARS for another project; in changing the mindset of an apathetic community that maybe 20 minutes extra during your commute IS worth it.
Most of that list has already been tried, and didn't help much. JTA already has electronic cards, already has monthly passes, already gives decent notice of public meetings (they just hold them at times they know nobody can come), and is itself already a separate agency from DOT etc. Electronic bus tracking systems? If the buses would actually run on their published schedules that would be completely unnecessary. Your ideas were mostly already floated 10 years ago, were tried, and failed, insofar as JTA continues to have the lowest ridership of any major city.
The reason for this, which you aren't really addressing, is the substandard service. You don't believe that rude drivers, late buses, no shelters, confusing signage, lack of intermodal transit options (e.g., rail), and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles have anything at all to do with the current lack of ridership?
Until all of that is fixed, you can do all the advertising you want to other demographics, e.g. people who would be discretionary riders because they have alternatives, and it won't matter. They'll try it once or twice, see how badly it sucks, and that will be that. Worse, it will be that much harder to get those people back next time.
Actual, real, systemic changes are needed at JTA. Not an expensive ad campaign when they already can't afford shelters.
Thinking like that is exactly why JTA is what it is today. And most of your ideas were already tried. If you actually ride JTA, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it already uses electronic cards and readers, monthly passes, and most of the rest of what you've suggested. You're not going to increase ridership unless the problems are fixed. Advertising won't help. People may buy a bad product once or twice, but then they learn.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 15, 2010, 01:18:57 PM
and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles
Is this true? Do you have an example of this? Or is this merely hyperbole?
Quote from: Live_Oak on October 15, 2010, 01:25:44 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 15, 2010, 01:18:57 PM
and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles
Is this true? Do you have an example of this? Or is this merely hyperbole?
Oh I think I'll let Stephen take this one, he has examples galore, that are much more entertaining than me.
But it's definitely not hyperbole. It takes the wonderful lady who cleans my place 2 hrs to get from Springfield to Riverside.
Quote from: Live_Oak on October 15, 2010, 01:25:44 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 15, 2010, 01:18:57 PM
and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles
Is this true? Do you have an example of this? Or is this merely hyperbole?
He is dead on with this. I took the bus to work (granted - -this was a few years ago) and to get 10 miles took me 2 and a half hours. Driving took maybe 30 minutes.
Bus is due at 12:14 at Empire Point but to make sure you don't miss it, 'cause sometimes it's early, get out there at noon. Drive to the downtown central hub. Arrive at 12:45 (give or take). Wait 45 minutes for the next bus out to Imeson Park. Approximately 1 hour later, assuming the driver didn't miss a turn (as happened on several occasions), pull into Imeson Park at 2:30. It was usually right on time because my shift started at 2:30 and I had to run inside to make sure I wasn't late.
Nobody is going to use the bus regardless of how much advertising they do, unless they somehow cut down on the time it takes to get anywhere. In a city this big, maybe we need smaller hubs in different areas. Maybe some kind of rail that goes down a few main "spokes" with buses supplementing the rail.
The rude drivers don't help but the trip time is the big issue.
I like analogies, so here's one. When we got the Jags in 95, the whole town was a buzz. They had a couple of good/great seasons out of the gate, but once they started floundering support flagged as well. Fairweather fans, to be sure. Yet, there have been a core group of diehard fans who have bought season tickets every year, tailgate weekly, buy teal cars, get their kids teal braces, name their dogs Jackson and De Ville, you name it. We didn't say those people were shilling for the Jags. They were supporting what they have. Participating. Showing interest. They knew salary caps kept the depth pretty paltry and there were some really ugly years(03, 08, anyone remember those?), but they liked having an NFL team here. Sadly, that small minority of fans wasn't deep enough. The city almost lost the team. But wait. Now, there is a MAJOR MARKETING push to get fans interested. Get involved the message says. Support the team even though they have sucked for a while. We don't want to lose out on this. Come watch the hometown team. Keeping the Jags is great for the City. Hey everybody, they have a winning record! We're team teal, or some such.
...the community has to support the decision. Turning around an organization as large and bumbling as JTA is will be a long-term process. If you don't get the population at large behind this issue it stops before it is started. We wind up with the skyway. A portion of the failure of transit in Jax rests with the community that has elected leadership who encourage (or at least don't discourage) sprawl. The current transit system is run by an agency whose focus is NOT on transit but on roads (one only need look at the first page of the 2007/08 Annual Report to see that). The City, a revamped transit agency, this board, will never tackle 50 years of issues in a manner as to resolve them all in one fell swoop without completely up-ending a system that is a necessity for a small portion of the city. So, the point of my argument will always be: What can we do tomorrow to get people on the system tomorrow?
Quote from: stephendare on October 15, 2010, 06:00:40 PM
Unfortunately, Singe.
This will not be enough.
The problem is that the product is subpar.
There just isnt enough marketing in the world that will convince people that dog crap can be used as rug shampoo.
The problem with this kind of thinking is that it relies on people to 'show support' for a system before the system should improve enought to be useful to the municipality that it is supposed to serve, and this is exactly the opposite of what needs to happen.
The JTA needs to be asking the people of Jacksonville why it is useless to them, and then make the necessary changes to give it some justification for existing.
I don't think you really understand the scale of the money and the failure.
If the total ridership is about 10 thousand people. If you purchased 10 thousand electric cars for 10k each and gave each of those people who use JTA regularly, that would be 100mil.
That is two of the overpasses built for regular cars.
But the JTA is not asking the people of Jacksonville anything.
They have refused to do so, and this site is the only marketplace of ideas for the cities transit that is freely open and available to the public.
It will remain that way until there is a new communications director for the agency.
+1
Enough attempts to polish a turd already. All it does is ruin the polishing rag, and you still have a turd.
No amount of advertising is going to achieve any meaningful levels of ridership until the system is fixed.
Period.
Not sure why people want to argue that? Sure you can attract a few riders with ads, who will ride it once or twice, and realize how badly it sucks, and that will be the end of that. Until it's functional there's just no point.
Everyone already knows what JTA is and what it does. That's not why nobody rides it.
Kids.........maybe we are just trying to get things changed from the wrong end! Maybe we should be raising hell with FDOT and the subsystem we have there in town? I mean, this is Florida and I think we deserve something that is a flippin lot better than what we have.........wtf.......what does JTA stand for? How about Just Tiptoeing Around?
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 15, 2010, 07:54:56 PM
Kids.........maybe we are just trying to get things changed from the wrong end! Maybe we should be raising hell with FDOT and the subsystem we have there in town? I mean, this is Florida and I think we deserve something that is a flippin lot better than what we have.........wtf.......what does JTA stand for? How about Just Tiptoeing Around?
Just
Terrible
All-around
How's that one?
Or J ust T oo A wful
Jacksonville Typical Apathy
Nice work people....... For what their mandate is, mass transit, they don't have a flipping clue and I keep leaning towards............close their doors and lets start over! No matter what the name, or lack thereof, They need to open their eyes and get real!